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Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

JTPROG

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Nov 6, 2014
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Another thing to note about Corrin is that his DAIR ****s up aether really hard with pretty forgiving timing, and he can recover afterwards in most cases. Surprisingly I faced a really good Corrin (plat+ smashladder equivalent) on FG and he kept gimping my aether with DAIR while I was trying to learn the MU. It's slightly less risky if you aether completely vertically (which may not be an option) but I find using quickdraw mixups for recovery almost a requirement here, which is also hard because of his neutral B and other shenanigans. Overall a matchup in Corrins favor I feel, even if only slightly.
 
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Maik93

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In case somebody wondered...
Dthrow kills... well red sparks appear at least...

With Ike at 100%
Jigglypuff: 120%
Bowser: 160%

With Ike at 150% - max rage
Jigglypuff: 100%
Bowser: 140%

I only tested those two to give you the max values on both side...
Couldn't test with DI though...
 

Arrei

Smash Lord
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Yeah, Dthrow's a backup kill move if you really just can't sink the kill against a defensive opponent. Not something we can really rely on, since as I noted in the past it took until ~125% with max rage to kill Sheik with a fresh Dthrow and DIing away, but it's come in handy a few times and I've used that as a metric to figure out if Dthrow might be sufficient when I catch an enemy at high percent.

If you want to test the absolute maximum we need to kill someone, you should probably test on King Dedede - fall speed factors heavily into vertical kill ability, and Bowser's much floatier than Dededoo.
 
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AbelCor

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So since Ike is a heavy with no get-out-of-my-face aerials, what should I be doing against Luigi's throw combos? I got bodied by a Luigi who basically looked for a grab all the time. And, well, how do I avoid getting grabbed in the first place?
 

Arrei

Smash Lord
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Against Luigi, shield his fireballs and jab. Luigi's approach is very slow whether it's by ground or by air, so he shouldn't make it to you before your fist connects with his big round nose. Just don't haphazardly pull out Jab3 or he'll be able to punish on block. If you find yourself getting grabbed, you'll just generally want to DI away. His Dthrow was a lot more dangerous before the nerf when it was a guaranteed kill setup even with DI, but now all it can do is get some damage on you, and he has a hard time getting the kill without it.
 

WorstGanonWorld

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Do your best to keep him out with your sword. Most of your moves will always be safe on shield against Luigi when spaced correctly due to Luigi´s terrible traction. You can approach with Fair even better now thanks to damage increase and range increase. Avoid getting grabbed and be careful of his most prominent ko options at high % which are : Upsmash, Bair and Bthrow at the ledge.

Against Luigi, shield his fireballs
I wonder if it´s sometimes better to just take a midrange fireball? He might expect you to shield and go for a grab but since you let it hit you, you can easily punish his grab attempt with tilts etc. due to the fireball´s almost non existent hitstun.

And if you read a midrange fireball, can you punish it with a dashattack for free?
 
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Arrei

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I wouldn't call it "free", as it's quite risky - if your spacing or timing is off, you'll eat a fireball right in grab range, and if you read wrong, it's not safe on shield, either. However, if he likes to cover landings with fireball, you probably stand a good chance of running underneath and batting him away.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to simply take a fireball in the face. He'd probably expect you to block and just shoot another fireball rather than go for a grab that early.
 
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WorstGanonWorld

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I don't think it's ever a good idea to simply take a fireball in the face. He'd probably expect you to block and just shoot another fireball rather than go for a grab that early.
Yeah I didn´t mean to say that it´s a good strat, more like a read if you´re sure he´s going in for a grab. It´s not gonna work against a patient Luigi, true.
 

Arrei

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So this video went up a few days ago. Ledge trump Bair is a powerful option for Ike, but this poses a potential threat you might not be expecting if you think your kill is guaranteed:

 

GhostUrsa

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Yikes! Never really been good at ledge trumping personally, but it does give me one more reason to avoid fighting on a walled stage.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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If you ever get the chance to fight ScAtt, consider it one of the best fights you'll have at a tournament. He's really good and uses one of my favorite characters. That said, I am tired of losing to his Mega Man, so I took a few notes that will save us all a beatdown from the blue bomber.

1. Stay grounded.
2. Use Aether to stall out Leaf Shield on the ledge.
3. Ban FD.
4. Don't jump from the ledge at kill percents. When landing, be careful to avoid Slash Claw (Bair) at all costs.
5. Don't get up neutral at 140% from the ledge. Bthrow will kill you.
6. Walk and shield to push Mega Man into a corner. He is weakest there and when recovering.
7. Never jump when hit by Air Tornado

There's not much I can say about what to use on block. He can mix pellet shots into grab sometimes and confuse the timing. Most often, he won't, but with the timing, he can go 1-2-3 or 1-2, 1-2-3, etc. Takes a clever eye and it helps to turn the volume up on the TV you're playing on. In addition, Counter can possibly stop some of this if he gets too close.

Stay grounded - If you jump, he can follow up on that once you are in hitstun and coming down. This is where chaos begins.
Solution: Walk towards him and use shield. Be very patient and jab or DTilt when you see the opportunity arise. Shield when he gets close because Nair will launch you slightly. Using jabs will disrupt his momentum, and at any time he's landing, he is vulnerable. He needs to start doing buster shots again and his landing options are less than impeccable.

Using Aether to stall out Leaf Shield - If he pops Leaf Shield while you recover, there's not much you can do. Quick Draw is possible if you can avoid getting hit when jumping from the ledge. Aether has the most tendency to keep him at bay, but do it from a slight distance away to avoid getting grabbed when coming down from the attack. Once Leaf Shield is gone, prepare a means to get back on stage. If he has Leaf Shield, never roll, get up neutral, jump, or attack. He covers all of these options. You must find a platform or stall him unless you want to take more damage and let him throw you back offstage.
Solution: Aether to a platform on T&C and SV.

Ban Final Destination - Without platforms, this is his playground. Contrary to original evidence - where his Air Tornado kills on platform stages - that mainly applied to if you're jumping. His Uairs still do damage, but won't kill till very late percent *unless you jump during hitstun*.
Solution: Any stage. Yes, even Lylat. He gets no benefit on Lylat since his projectiles jam up on the uneven ground and puts his recovery at risk. Duck Hunt is even better since you can just hit the bush to recover.

Don't jump from the ledge at kill percents - This also includes safely landing. If he has you past 110%, he will be fishing for Slash Claw (Bair) - his primary kill option. This is where staying grounded becomes essential.
Solution: He won't use this if he's using Leaf Shield, obviously. But if he's not, he will be baiting a jump option.

Don't get up neutral from the ledge at 140% - This is Sonic and Ness logic. He will run up and pivot grab you to BThrow you.
Solution: Fair from the ledge as he will be forced to respect the range. He usually won't use a roll on reaction.

Walk and shield to push Mega Man into a corner - Basic Mega Man 101. His entire game revolves around firing lemons. Shielding protects you from those entirely. Walking and shielding is your optimal approach option, as you have access to jabs, Dtilts, grabs, and even Counter if he gets too close and mis-times an attack. The less space he gets to attack you with, the more danger he's in.
Solution:His jump options are very, very poor. He can either tomahawk or attempt a Fair. If he fairs your shield, that's a free punish with DTilt or grabs. Oftentimes, he will attempt a Rush Coil (Up B), then come down with Flame Sword or Hard Knuckle, then spring back into the air to evade. That's your cue to begin an assault or a chase due to his poor landing options.

Never jump from Air Tornado - If he hits you with a Uair, DO NOT JUMP. It's that simple. It can kill you at either 60% or 160%. The choice is yours.
Solution: Don't jump. Just take it while trying to get away, jumping after the hitstun has ended and you begin your descent. Players can and will try to jump-cancel to use multiple tornadoes, so just be patient.

Mega Man has a horrible time getting back on stage. Your outrange his Flame Sword and your Nair should take care of his own Nair as long as you space and retreat with it. In every match I've been in with ScAtt since May, he has always fallen for USmash from neutral ledge recovery. Note that when he rolls from the stage, it's about 1/3 of the stage, so go out far if you're going to run up and pivot FTilt him.

DANGER: Mega Man's FSmash can hit the low-point of Aether if we recover vertical. He can also use this multiple times, killing at 60% with a fully-charged Mega Buster shot. Using Side B to recover is completely recommended, using Aether as a last resort. It may actually be better to go high with Aether to absorb a weaker charged shot if he's aiming for us to go low. Save your second jumps as much as you can as recovering high and risking a dashgrab is better than risking an FSmash that will finish us at low percents. Once you're out of the FSmash danger, side recover and continue.

Note that Mega Man's single biggest danger is our grab combos. Fair will confirm all the way to a kill around the 85% (rage) to 110% margin (less rage for Ike). Naturally, he's forced to respect this, and fishing for an air-dodge Uair may prove even more effective as he can DI the Fair at very high percents.

Anyone who has Mega Man knowledge is more than welcome to reply and contribute to this. I'll be working on kill percents and moves that can disrupt Mega Man's Leaf Shield later. Being able to recover successfully from Mega Man is absolutely crucial given the amount of stage control his Leaf Shield gives him.
 
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ikesaac

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Hey guys I'm an Ike main from Mexico, the last week I had the chance to meet Mk Leo(our best player) cousin, Javi, he is at the same level of Hyuga, Huyga is the toon link that beat Nairo and place 9th at genesis3, with that said, Javi uses Ike as a secondary and I play dittos with him since he came for a birthday of one of our common friends and I think we are at the same level with Ike, and we chat a little bit and he told me he believes that the match up Ike vs Meta Knight it's even and you guys wonder how because we are dead if meta knight land his up string but he told me, Ike can escape before meta knight do his up string, if he dash attack you and he lands it, if he hits you with the tip you have to DI away from him, he cant get you and if he does,he only would connect 2 hits.
If meta knight hits you with the middle of his dash attack you have to DI towards him and he wouldnt follow you up and the other scenario it's if he grabbed you and does the down throw you have to DI towards him he wouldnt connect the full bussines .
Ohhh and this is important he told me you have to abuse of retreating pivot grabs when you see that Meta Knight dash towards you because this shuts down his dash attack and his dash grabs and he told me that if we dont get hit by the up string we easily beat meta with our grab combos and our excellent kill options.
And I know you could say: "Who is this to say that this match up is even or maybe in favor of Ike" but trust me Mk Leo is by far the best meta Knight in the world and his cousins, Serge and Javi, are at the same level that Huyga Toon link and they play every single day so if Javi said that it's truth and this saturday I maybe will face a Meta knight main in a local Tourney that can do as well the up string combo so I expect to win this time with the advices from Javi. Hope this will help you my friends and boddied some Meta Knights I recently boddied 2 good meta knights that couldnt hit me with the up string

Ohhh and by the way any tips for the lucina match up and her new combos like jab into fair or smash or dolphin slash??? And any advices for the dark pitt match up???
 

JTPROG

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Thoughts on the Robin matchup? Had to play one in tournament the other day and was not familiar with the matchup. He basically played extremely campy, never approached, but his projectiles seemed to cover so much space and their long lasting hitboxes were hard to play around. Any tips appreciated
 

Arrei

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Be patient and campy yourself. Stay grounded unless you can read a projectile, then you can jump over it and punish the endlag. Arcfire and Arcthunder may last a long time, but he can't afford to spam them or he'll run out when it counts. Besides, Robin's Levin Fair reaches deceptively far and has a slight lingering hitbox, making it easy to beat our own Fair if we're using it aggressively instead of defensively, and a retreating aerial Arcfire also tends to land right on us if we jump in, so you don't want to jump in recklessly. Rolling through Robin also seems to work out sometimes if he likes to pull out Arcfire and close range Thunder spells, as long as you don't get predictable with it.

Practice using Eruption on him when he's offstage. Robin is one of the easiest targets to hit with Eruption as Elwind has a super long, telegraphed startup with both visible and audible cues, so figure out what part of the "Ha! Elwind!" shout is good to release Eruption on, with varying distances from the ledge. However, Robin likes to cover his recovery by launching Arcfire at the ledge during his air jump, which will linger at the edge long enough to hit you out of Eruption even if you anticipate it and jump first. That does, however, lead to him being open to getting batted away with Fair for the kill, though if he mixes it up and airdodges, just make absolutely sure you don't jump beneath him while trying to make it back or you could get spiked or gimped by Elwind, and that'd just be humiliating.

At about 100%+ depending on Robin's rage, avoid getting grabbed at all costs or he can end us easily with his Checkmate combo.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Diddy tactics.

Ike vs. Diddy

Rapid jabs
-Punishable by dash grab

Ftilt
-Punishable by dash grab

DTilt
-Punishable by shieldgrab or jab when used up close

UTilt
-Punishable by dash grab
-Punishable by Ftilt. Potential kill move if Diddy is over 120%.

FSmash
-Not punishable by dash grab
-Punishable by Dtilt at close range only
-Punishable by Ftilt at max range

DSmash
-Punishable by dashgrab (1st hit, 2nd hit only when close)
-Punishable by dash attack (1st hit)

USmash
-Shield only covers 2 hits. So attack after the second hit
-Punishable by dash grab
-Punishable by USmash

Dash Attack
-Very likely to crossup. Punish accordingly.
-Punishable by Dtilt (front)
-Punishable by shield grab (front)
-Punishable by UTilt (front, back very close)
-Punishable by turn-grab and pivot DTilt (back)

Peanut Popgun
-If at all possible, jump catch the peanut with Z. You can throw it back at him and follow up with a grab combo.
-Be patient when approaching. Walk and shield.

Monkey Flip
-If you can read it, respond with retreating Fair or pivot Ftilt
-The kick always crosses up, except when used at max range - if the kick hits when Diddy is descending, he will land in front of you.
-Punishable by dash grab if he lands behind you
-Punishable by shieldgrab if he lands in front of you

Rocketbarrel Boost
-If Diddy is using this as an escape across the screen, shield and chase him. Dash attack the moment the barrels disappear and he goes back into rest.

Banana Peel
-Punishable with dash attack if he's too close
-If he uses it too close and you shield when he's tossing it up, punish with shieldgrab or jabs.
-If he jumps up to catch it, a Fair may be possible.
-You can also try Z-grabbing the peel in the air. Be evasive, because he will immediately try to aerial attack you.
-If Diddy has the Banana Peel, DO NOT APPROACH. Let him hold onto it until he throws it at you. He can only do this twice
-If he throws it and it hits your shield, he will likely go for a dashgrab. Out of shield jab or DTilt
-If he has been reading the jab, shield again to avoid the incoming fair.
-Once his Banana Peel is gone is when he is most vulnerable again. Always keep in mind Diddy may catch onto this and use the Banana Peel simply to stall into a Time-Out.
-Walk and approach with shield if he holds onto the banana peel excessively.
-If you grab the Banana Peel, rather than throw it back at Diddy, throw it upwards. This will stall the time he can use it, as well as force his approach. Punish accordingly.
-If you grab the banana and shield an incoming attack, simply throw it at him and follow with a dash grab or dash USmash at kill percents

Notes:

-As said before, leave Diddy alone when he has a Banana Peel in his hands.
-Diddy's aerials have insane lack of landing lag, making punishing them on shield nigh-impossible. It comes down to out-spacing his aerials and playing proper defense, as opposed to challenging him in the air
-Retreating Bair and Nair is your optimal choice against an aerial Diddy. Never approach with aerials except offstage.
-Due to the new and improved Fair, walk-off Fair could be a potential kill move against a Diddy who used Side B to get back on-stage.
-Ledge trump Bair may be your best bet edgeguarding Diddy
-Don't get too close to the edge while edgeguarding Diddy. Maintain ground game to avoid his Fair disrespect against the rest of your options so you can shield him and cover his options.
-Diddy largely relies on his grabs for his offense. Jabs and Dtilts will play a crucial role in this matchup.
-Diddy relies also in ascending Fairs. This will likely beat all of your options.

Advantage stages: Battlefield, Dream Land
Neutral Stages: Lylat Cruise, Town & City
Ban: Final Destination, Duck Hunt

The flat stages give Diddy more legroom for Banana Peel mixups and less places for you to land safely.

Diddy kill percents. Please note that these were recorded using the minimal percentages for red lightning and did not involve DI, with the exception of one listed below.

Ike vs. Diddy kill percents (FD/SV)

UTilt
107%

Ftilt
Ledge: 99%
Roll: 117%
Midscreen: 136%

Uair
Airdodge read: 95%

Fair
Walk-off Fair: 80%
Ledge: 91%
Roll: 108%
Midscreen: 126%

Bair
Ledge trump: 72%
Ledge: 84%
Roll: 99%
Midscreen: 116%

UThrow-Fair
Ledge: 87%
Inward DI: 100-110%
Combo ends at 110% without rage.

Dash attack:
Ledge: 92%
Roll: 114%
Midscreen: 138%

USmash:
91%

FSmash
Ledge: 50%
Roll: 60%
Midscreen: 74%
 
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ReroRero

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Thanks a lot Rango for all of these notes. I actually lost to a Diddy recently so this will be handy.

I struggle a lot against ROB, I heard that walking sometimes is way better than running when ROB has both Gyro and Laser available ? That's my main grip in this match up
 

Arrei

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Yup - shielding out of a walk is faster than shielding out of a dash, I believe, though how much seems to vary by character. Since ROB focuses on walling you out with his projectiles, and isn't fast enough to suddenly approach you and attack, being able to quickly react and shield is paramount.
 

MasterExocuter

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In the ROB vs. Ike matchup, recover low and don't aimlessly quick draw back. Ftilt can outspace ROB and jab out of shield is good way to engage. I like to counter gyro. Also some ROBs will side-b instinctively after you pick up their gyro. Wait this out and then throw after they are done.
 

Maik93

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Actually imo it is not the best choice to recover low, as many ROB's like to just spike you at the peak of aether where you are vunerable to attacks. It's best to mix it up and keep him guessing.

As for edgeguarding him... I don't really know... mix it up!... maybe... walkoff aerial, eruption, heck even try to spike through the stage or footstool him...

Btw can someone help me with the falchions MU?
I simply can't figure it out... Their fair is much faster and has almost the same range as ours...
Jab 1 combos us hard like jab 1 -> aerial dancing blade -> uair and utilt at low percents, it even can kill confirm with fsmash..
 

Arrei

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Is it just me, or is landing the Uthrow Uair kill exceptionally easy on Bayonetta? I miss those kills like a habit, even on other FFers, yet it seems to work so much more on her.
 
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WorstGanonWorld

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Btw can someone help me with the falchions MU?
I simply can't figure it out... Their fair is much faster and has almost the same range as ours...
Jab 1 combos us hard like jab 1 -> aerial dancing blade -> uair and utilt at low percents, it even can kill confirm with fsmash..
I´m pretty sure none of that stuff is guaranteed at all, even with that buff jab 1 got. Have you tried jumping away after his jab?
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Yup - shielding out of a walk is faster than shielding out of a dash, I believe, though how much seems to vary by character. Since ROB focuses on walling you out with his projectiles, and isn't fast enough to suddenly approach you and attack, being able to quickly react and shield is paramount.
I've learned that, especially for wall-loving and Fair-heavy characters, like Diddy, Fox, Bayonetta, and Pikachu, you absolutely have to do this to keep them out of your face. They WANT you to commit to a dash option so they can get you when you attempt to shield.
 

PyroTakun

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Walking in general is something Ikes should do more often. With C-stick set to attack you can do any tilt out of a walk, and it helps us optimize our spacing capabilities a lot better. Mix it in with dashes to add a layer of mind games.
 
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Jenna Zant

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What do you guys think of the Bowser matchup? My friend says it's 80:20 in Ike's favor.
 

the_muffin

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It's most certainly in Ike's favor, but it's closer than that IMO. I don't have any real hard arguments to back that up, but my gut says 60:40 in Ike's favor.
 

Arrei

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Highly doubtful. First off, no matchup is that bad in Sm4sh. That's Brawl MK levels of imbalance, where one mistake at any point loses you a stock. Last we discussed it, Ike was considered to be even or being +1. That was before his Nair and Fair got buffed again and Bowser's Uthrow kill combo got a nerf, but they wouldn't have imbalanced the matchup that severely. Ike may have safer spacing due to his disjoints, but Ike vs. Bowser remains a total spacing vs. spacing game where each wants to control the same space and has the potential for huge damage on the other should they get in. Ike does have a faster jab to win close-range exchanges and he has his lovely Fair, Bair, and Nair for air combat should Bowser try to jump in, but Bowser has a command grab and Bowser Bomb for shield-happy opponents, OoS UpB to punish on shield, and even after his Uthrow nerf it still works for quite a while on Ike.
 
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the king of murder

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Lmao Ike:Bowser is super close probably only slightly in Ikes favor. Yes Bowser gets juggled hard and our disjoints outrange his(only slightly) plus offstage Bowser is free eruption . But Bowser lives forever, still has his kill confirm(even if nerfed) and combos(which he can abuse with our poor disadvantage state) plus his crazy grab range.

The fact that he almost has the same reach as Ike and can brutally punish you for using defensive options like Shield certanly makes this MU a scary one for Ike.(And it's usually Ike who is the scary one)
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Do you guys feel post-patch Samus is a threat? I think her improvements warrant her as viable now, which means we will see more of her.

Her offstage game is really good and bad for us when trying to edgeguard her. She also has a number of gimping moves due to her floatiness, and she's heavy enough to withstand most of our attacks.

I feel her biggest weaknesses are securing a kill confirm and overall neutral and aerial game against Ike. With proper spacing, it comes down to out-ranging her. Utilizing vertical movement (for Fairs) and our shield is also key for avoiding the Zair, which otherwise outranges us.

Note that the Samus players I went up against today were highly aggressive, as opposed to the campy Samus we would expect Dash attack is not only unpunishable on shield, but actually crosses up with us most of the time. And despite how much we utilize our defensive play, all it takes is one Super Missile and a Charge Shot to break our shields.

Her FSmash also seems to be a decent OoS option and can be used in the blink of an eye, which forces us to approach cautiously. We also have to utilize proper DI if she catches us with Uair. On platform stages, she can - and will - utilize UThrows for Uair -> Uair -> Screw Attack, which can end a stock early, especially on Dream Land. While on flat stages, she has a long-ranged Grappling Beam to catch our landings with. It's really hard to determine which stages to take her to.

And as mentioned before, between Zair, Charge Shot, and Fair, she is dangerous off-stage and makes our edgeguarding difficult. However, between the second and third hits of Fair, I have been able to shield grab. However, this only works if she's directly in our face.
 

constable lemon

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To add to that, a fully charged Charge Shot can clip our up B recovery since we don't snap to the ledge, or it can even snipe us offstage trying to charge Quick Draw. If the Samus gets a read with that, or just has good timing, it can cost us a stock very early. Samus is definitely a threat to Ike.
 
D

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Rango the Mercenary Rango the Mercenary Hey man, I was told you have some knowledge on the Bayo MU, would love to hear what you think of it and any advice you can provide me with. Anyone else can feel free to contribute to this, I'd love to know everything there is to know about that damn MU.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Rango the Mercenary Rango the Mercenary Hey man, I was told you have some knowledge on the Bayo MU, would love to hear what you think of it and any advice you can provide me with. Anyone else can feel free to contribute to this, I'd love to know everything there is to know about that damn MU.
Ike's dashgrabs and grab combos ruin Bayonetta's day. Period. Without her getting to bait you with Witch Time for a straight-up attack, she's eating 20% damage every time she goes for it. Her only true disrespect move is Side B, which at this point, is easily blocked and punished on shield. If she tries to catch your landing with its huge hitbox, you can always Counter.

Bayonetta has a Bair wall, just like Fox and now Samus. You outrange this cleanly, even if you have to RAR Bair or throw out spaced Fairs to make her get the point. It's also much harder for Bayonetta to Witch Time gimp/spike your Aether or Quick Draw than it actually looks.

All of her Smash attacks are fully punishable with a USmash, or UTilt if you're feeling unsafe.

UThrow Fair will kill at 85 to 100 on the ledge. Maybe sooner.

As far as her Bullet Climax goes, it really comes down to two things:
1) Duck if you're in neutral
2) If you're thrown off stage, don't double jump and don't immediately charge Quick Draw. Consider airdodging to fall under the bullet line so you don't get gimped. When charged, they are a kill move akin to Link and Pit's fully charged Bow & Arrow strikes.

Ban Town & City so she can't abuse platform combos. You'll do just fine on any other stage.
 

PyroTakun

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Ta-kun
How's the matchup against mario?
Definitely in Mario's favor, but not unwinnable. Outside of getting grabbed and gimped, I don't think it's that bad. Space out Mario with F-Airs, N-Airs, and D-Tilts and find grab openings when you can. When he's approaching from the air make sure you hold shield long enough for his aerial (N-Air and D-Air) to end, but not long enough to get grabbed when he lands. You need to mixup your recovery against Mario to keep him guessing. If you get grabbed at lower percents, avoid jumping out of his U-Tilts until you're sure it'll work. If you waste it, you're easily eating another 40% or so.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Ike vs. Pikachu

Shield punishes.
Jabs

-Nothing to do but shield



UTilt

-Only punishable by jabs (front)

-Punishable by Dtilt (behind)



Ftilt

-Unpunishable on shield at far range. Dtilt otherwise.



Dtilt

-Punishable by Dtilt only



Dash attack

-Only crosses up at closest range

-Punish crossup with turn Dtilt or dash grab

-Punish with Dtilt if dash attack ends in front.



USmash

-Punish with dash grab or Dtilt

-Punish with Ftilt for potential kill

-Only punish with UTilt if close



FSmash

-Perfectly timed dash grab, but best not to attempt anything else. If it whiffs and you're in the air, he is mostly safe.



DSmash

-Punish with anything, including Dtilt and dash grabs. USmash works as well.



Nair

-Punish with Dtilt or dashgrab

-If Pikachu approaches and ascends with shorthop Nair and lands, he may Crossup. Punish with a Dtilt or shorthop Nair. You can link the Nair into Dtilt into Fair.

-USmash is also considerable. Shorthop Nair has notable landing lag.



Fair

-Never punish with shield grab. Fair makes Pikachu go low into the ground when he lands.

-Never punish with jab for the same reason

-Fair hits a total of 5 times

-Punishable by Dtilt

-Fair will not always crossup. It's 50/50 more or less

-Depending on timing, Pikachu may be safe from Dtilt on Fair. So use with caution. This is mainly when he ascends using the attack.



Dair

-Rising Dair is fully punishable by shieldgrab

-Dair only autocancels from a shorthop rising Dair

-If he lands, punish with Dtilt. Rising Dtilt has enough shieldstun where you may botch the dash follow up into grab. Dtilt is sacred.

-Dtilt shockwave only hits once. Punish with shieldgrab

-Shockwave is also punishable with UTilt



Bair

-Hits 8 times in the air, once while landing.

-Punish with Dtilt

-UTilt is also possible.



Thunder Jolt

-He will never use this move up close. Proper spacing, shielding, and landing matters here.



Skull Bash

-Punish with Counter

-If he uses it on the ground and you shield, dash grab



Quick Attack

-Punish with Dtilt before he uses it. This catches him.

-Also punishable by Nair and Fair. Be sure to retreat while using them.

-While shielding, angle your shield low. Dash attack cancels in your hitbox can shieldpoke you low.

-This move is a 50/50 crossup.

-On either angle, it punishable by a jab or turn-jab.

-Never punish with grab

-Dtilt only

-Spot dodge is possible between first and second hits.



Thunder

-Vulnerable to Dair or any aerial shortly after blue Thunder hits

Matchup-specific notes.
-Pikachu's #1 matchup maker against Ike is his ability to gimp. Never use an airhop from the ledge and always recover carefully. His Fairs and Bairs can take your stock in an instant, regardless of percent.

-It is worth using tactics to recover, such as retreating airhop or patiently going below stage to Aether him if he uses Thunder Jolt or camps the ledge for an FSmash

-Pikachu can confirm a kill after 120% with UThrow Thunder. Avoid his grabs at this percent and higher.

-His favorite method of approaching is Fair. This covers a lot of distance quickly. Properly spaced retreating Fairs and Bairs answer this.

-You can also approach, shield, and prepare a Dtilt when he lands.

-Only bother grabbing Pikachu on a read or tomahawk. You cannot shieldgrab Pikachu on anything because he sits so low to the ground.

-Pikachu's other weakness is Nair. This destroys many of his approach options and leads into damaging combos. Don't forget to use retreating Nair to avoid Pika's Fairs and punish approaches and Quick Attack

-Hitboxes beat out Quick Attack. Dtilt and Nair are effective.

-Going offstage with Pikachu is suicidal. Your best bet is to retreat Fair/Bair at a safe distance from the ledge to punish incoming ledge Fair.

-If Pikachu rolls onstage, retreating landing Fair or pivot Dtilt are strong answers.

-Uthrow to Fair stops confirming after 70%. Begin mixup Uthrow to Uair or simply throwing Pikachu off stage. The edge is where you want him, as when recovering, this is when you can finish him off with Fair, Bair, or USmash.

Stages
Ban: Lylat Cruise

Strike: Battlefield

Okay: Final Destination, Duck Hunt

Decent: Smashville, Town & City, Dream Land[/spoiler

Pikachu kill percents*
UTilt

96%



FTilt

Ledge - 93%

Roll - 109%

Midscreen - 126%



Dash attack

Ledge - 86%

Roll - 106%

Midscreen - 127%



Nair

130%



Uair

Uthrow airdodge read - 80%



Fair

Ledge - 85%

Roll - 100%

Midscreen - 116%



Bair

Ledge - 78%

Roll - 92%

Midscreen - 107%



USmash

82%



FSmash

Ledge - 45%

Roll - 56%

Midscreen - 67%



DThrow

162%



Notes

-Uthrow to Fair ends after 70%. This will not confirm.

-Pikachu's main ledge options are to Fair from the stage and roll. You can use retreating Bair to end Pikachu between 78 and 92%.

-Use Fair to cover ledge roll. Don't use too much or it will stale. Mix with Nairs, pivot Ftilts, and grabs.

*As with previous damage percents, these are not tested with DI nor rage. These are the minimum kill percents that will trigger the Deadly Blow red lightning effect.
 
Last edited:

Nidtendofreak

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"-Pikachu can confirm a kill after 120% with UThrow Thunder. Avoid his grabs at this percent and higher."

Its not a kill confirm. Its an extremely iffy DI read with extremely tight timing. 33/33/33 at best but not even ESAM can do it consistently.
 

Arrei

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Is it even true on a read? I don't think I've been hit by Thunder as long as I DI and properly dodge afer.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Its true on a read if they react fast enough, within a certain (fairly small) range. Its called RAR Thunder but its not an actual RAR, don't know exactly what the input is.

There is a range where it has a 33% change of being a true combo, if they read the DI correct and quickly enough. That's about it.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Ike vs. Donkey Kong

Shield punishes
Jab 2

-Not punishable by Dtilt except when close

-Punishable by dashgrab

-Punishable by Ftilt



UTilt

-Punishable by Dtilt/jab/dashgrab in front

-Not punishable by Dtilt from back except when used close

-Punishable by Ftilt when used from behind

-Punishable by dash grab



FTilt

-Not punishable by dash grab unless when used up close.



Dtilt

-Not punishable



Dash attack

-Punishable by shieldgrab or Dtilt

-Crosses up when used up close

-Punishable by turn-grab or turn-Dtilt

-Punishable by UTilt

-Punishable by Ftilt



USmash

-Punishable by dash grab



FSmash

-Not punishable on shield



DSmash

-Punishable by dash grab

-Punishable by Fair

-Punishable by RAR Bair



Nair

-If used while approaching, can crossup

-Punish with turnaround grab

-If used in front, punish with shieldgrab

-Punish with Dtilt



Uair

-Punish with Dtilt

-Punish with grab



Fair

-Will likely retreat with the move

-Punish with dashgrab



Dair

-If he fullhops it, punish with Bair

-If shorthopped and approaching, will land behind you. Punish with turn-grab

-Punish both angles with USmash



Bair

-Unpunishable if he retreats while landing

-Punishable by jabs if he approaches while landing, except when spaced

-If he lands too close, punishable by shieldgrab

-If used while ascending and approaching, punishable by jabs



Giant Punch

-Uncharged: Punish with dashgrab

-Charged: Not punishable on shield



Headbutt

-Shielding not recommended

-If you manage to keep your shield, punish with shieldgrab

-Punish with Dtilt



Spinning Kong

-Punish with grabs

-Punish with Utilt

-If landing away, punish with dash attack or USmash

-Punish with Fair or Bair



Hand Slap

-Punish with Fair

-Punish with Dair

Matchup-specific notes
-DK has a lot of shield breaking power on moves, including Headbutt and Hand Slap. His Smashes and Giant Punch also have similar potential, though not quite as much.

-DK is not a fast character. Aside from Bair - which is punishable on shield - he is not the type of character than can barrage you with attacks.

-In addition, his grab game is as good as Ike's and just as necessary for racking up damage.

-Finally, DK's premise in this list is that a number of his attacks are simply too safe to punish on shield. This is less that they have fast FAF and more that they cause serious pushback while you're blocking.

-For all reasons listed above, this is not a matchup to stay in your shield in. Ike is much better staying mobile, spacing with aerials and Dtilt, and going in for grabs.

-It is only worth staying in your shield to shieldgrab DK's dash attack, which he can also 50/50 with dash grab.

-Jab is a better option to ward off dashgrabs, as DK's dash attack is deceptively quick and can beat out your Dtilt first. Jab 1 clanks with dash attack.

-If you clank into a jab war, Ike will win by a single frame (Ike's jab 1 is frame 4, while DK's is frame 5)

Stages
Ban: Town & City

Okay: Smashville, Dream Land, Final Destination

Good: Battlefield

Possible: Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt



-Town & City must be banned as it has the lowest ceiling. Not only does DK rarely die from the top, due to his super heavyweight status, but it will be that much earlier he can use to confirm Cargo Throw into Uair.

-Battlefield is good due to the high ceiling. The platforms also impede DK's landing, as his landing options are by no means noteworthy.

-Lylat Cruise is possible due to the high ceiling. In addition, the platforms make it very hard for DK to land. And unlike Cloud, his dash speed isn't great enough to catch people landing on the platforms consistently with Uair.

Kill percents
UTilt

126%



FTilt



Ledge - 119%

Roll - 137%

Midscreen - 159%



Dash attack



Ledge - 111%

Roll - 134%

Midscreen - 162%



Nair

167%



Uair

Uthrow airdodge read - 116%



Fair



Walk-off - 86%

Ledge - 109%

Roll - 127%

Midscreen - 147%



Bair



Ledge trump - 85%

Ledge - 100%

Roll - 117%

Midscreen - 136%



USmash

108%



FSmash



Ledge - 61%

Roll - 78%

Midscreen - 89%



UThrow to Fair

-Stops confirming after 120% (no rage).

-Does not kill if DI'd inward.
 
Last edited:

Xyless

Smash Master
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Is it even true on a read? I don't think I've been hit by Thunder as long as I DI and properly dodge afer.
It's true on a predictive read, not a reactive read. The Pika has to already be moving towards where they expect you to DI before you are actually moving.
 
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