Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[PyroTakun]

Question for everyone: how do we feel about the Sheik and ZSS MUs after 1.1.5?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sheik is probably a 40-60 instead of 35-65 now. Removal of 50/50, Needle Range and Fair nerfs were all pretty nice. Ike has a much better chance of outspacing Sheik at least temporarily, and living long enough for Rage to make him a terror.

ZSS is probably still in the 40-60 range, just an easier 40-60 than before.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I thought Sheik was 40-60 before the patch.

 

[Arrei]

These damn ratios are never agreed upon anyway. All I can keep track of is that no one is a 30-70 and Sheik was our worst matchup.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I thought Sheik was 40-60 before the patch.

Noooooo Sheik was certainly more difficult than the other 40-60s by a noticeable degree.

 

[FrostyLemon]

Since the patch has anyone discovered any new advantages we have over Cloud? He is probably the only character I wince at when I see him appear on screen. I just cant find effective ways of dealing with him, Any tips?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Lost to C3PO at Pound. Diddy is really, really hard for Ike. We not only can't approach, but we also have to be extremely wary about the defensive game because he can 50/50 grabs and Fair after he tosses the banana. It feels 6-4 in Diddy's favor.

Donkey Kong CAN be bad, but it's more volatile than anything. He wins the neutral due to his long grab range, faster hits, and matching disjointed DTilt. We win because we can outrange the majority of his attacks and do extra damage offstage. Unfortunately, he kills us at 73% with his ding-dong combo, something we don't have to match with.

Since the patch has anyone discovered any new advantages we have over Cloud? He is probably the only character I wince at when I see him appear on screen. I just cant find effective ways of dealing with him, Any tips?

Ban: Lylat Cruise
DSR or avoid: Battlefield and Dream Land
Even or advantage: Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination

Cloud wins on platform stages due to his Uair juggles. That's literally the factor. Outside of that, he has faster neutral and maneuvering overall, but we hit harder. Always remember that.

Our DTilt punishes many of his moves and approach options. Moreover, UThrow Fair can - and will - confirm a kill after 100% or so on Town & City. I can't speak for other stages, but FD certainly works for us. If he bans it, you have Smashville as well.

 

[FrostyLemon]

Lost to C3PO at Pound. Diddy is really, really hard for Ike. We not only can't approach, but we also have to be extremely wary about the defensive game because he can 50/50 grabs and Fair after he tosses the banana. It feels 6-4 in Diddy's favor.

Donkey Kong CAN be bad, but it's more volatile than anything. He wins the neutral due to his long grab range, faster hits, and matching disjointed DTilt. We win because we can outrange the majority of his attacks and do extra damage offstage. Unfortunately, he kills us at 73% with his ding-dong combo, something we don't have to match with.



Ban: Lylat Cruise
DSR or avoid: Battlefield and Dream Land
Even or advantage: Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination

Cloud wins on platform stages due to his Uair juggles. That's literally the factor. Outside of that, he has faster neutral and maneuvering overall, but we hit harder. Always remember that.

Our DTilt punishes many of his moves and approach options. Moreover, UThrow Fair can - and will - confirm a kill after 100% or so on Town & City. I can't speak for other stages, but FD certainly works for us. If he bans it, you have Smashville as well.

Thanks for that, I'll make sure I use dtilt. I think I sometimes rush into a Uthrow Fair because he seems to air dodge it a lot. I'm also a bit of a sucker for a limit break charge as well, it makes me rush in as I know he can punish me with it. What do you do?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Thanks for that, I'll make sure I use dtilt. I think I sometimes rush into a Uthrow Fair because he seems to air dodge it a lot. I'm also a bit of a sucker for a limit break charge as well, it makes me rush in as I know he can punish me with it. What do you do?

You dash or walk in and shield so he doesn't catch you on a cancel if he sees you approaching his Limit Charge.

Moreover, you absolutely cannot challenge him in the air. Dair has too much hitbox and his aerial speed is good enough to catch your Fair and Bair attempts. Cloud players are clever and love to bait you into challenging them in the air. You're better off waiting for him to land so you can punish with pivot FTilt. Also, his Uair is Frame 7 - the same as our Bair, and naturally, faster than our Fairs.

So again, you do not want to challenge him in the air.

 

[Arrei]

Cloud in a nutshell is Shield. Outside of Limit Break, Cloud is easily punished on block, especially by a character with long reach who isn't pushed out of punish range by his moves. I'm also hearing that the nerf to his Uair means it's no longer safe on block. And of course, Cloud is throw combo fodder, being comboed for a large range and being one of the fighters we can kill confirm with Uthrow Uair. If you're missing Uthrow Fairs, you need to work on your timing more, because he should not be able to airdodge that until Fair just clean misses him from Uthrow sending him too high. Just be sure you pursue him from a diagonal angle if you're trying to juggle him, as his Dair obviously beats almost every move if they're coming from directly below.

This means jab, shield grab, and Dtilt will see particularly heavy use. Jab to dash grab works pretty well too, as Cloud can't throw out a protective hitbox before he hits the ground. Just be sure to not drop your guard while you're in Cloud's own Dtilt range. Don't try approaching Nairs unless he's already locked into another move, either, as his own Nair easily swats us out of the sky if we're just throwing it out randomly.



Against DK, I quickly learned avoiding grabs is the name of the game. He gets comboed forever due to his weight and huge size, but his cargo combos are even more potent. Even if you avoid the Ding Dong range, he can still kill you with Bthrow or stage spike with a turnaround cargo Dthrow. So what I generally do is harass him with aerials from as far away as I can, since his only answer to that in the air is Bair, which will extend his hurtbox quite a ways, and a dash grab or attack on the ground, which is our ticket for a punish.

 

[FrostyLemon]

Thanks guys that is brilliant.

 

[PyroTakun]

Lost to C3PO at Pound. Diddy is really, really hard for Ike. We not only can't approach, but we also have to be extremely wary about the defensive game because he can 50/50 grabs and Fair after he tosses the banana. It feels 6-4 in Diddy's favor.

I've only played against Diddy a couple times after the nerf since a lot of people dropped him, but he was still giving me a hard time. I feel like if it wasn't for the banana he wouldn't have an advantage over us.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm starting to sort Ike's bad matchups and wonder what his best secondaries would be. As we know, Ike's worst matchup has historically been Sheik. However, it's no secret that Diddy is highly troublesome. Even though I lost to C3PO, San says there are much better Diddy players. And for starters, Dyr beat Ryo on the same weekend as Tipped Off. Diddy could almost certainly be considered Ike's second worst matchup.

Then you have Mario and Cloud. Mario disrespects and has very fast attacks that are hard to punish, but he also has Cape for Quick Draw and FLUDD for Aether. Even lowest point Aether can be hit. Meanwhile, Cloud can match Ike in neutral, but his juggle game goes completely up in stages like Battlefield and Dream Land. Lylat is a death sentence for Ike.

After that, there are weirder matchups that can prove troubling, like R.O.B. and Captain Falcon. R.O.B. matches our weight, but his disjointed Fairs come out faster than ours and he plays a camping game that forces us to approach. Our best weapon against him is to use his Gyro against him. However, we have no B moves for options that can challenge him. He also has his own DThrow to Uair combo for confirms and is floaty enough to avoid our own confirm ending his stock. Captain Falcon has perhaps the best dashgrab in the game, a multitude of combos to juggle us with, and Dair spikes to beat Aether. We lack aerial defense and fast moves to keep him off of us, and he's not afraid to dash into grab us even if we retreat Bair with autocancel.

I consider them "weirder" because they're troubling, but some of the community may say it's a 50-50. Meta-Knight used to be an awful matchup as well, but I went 3-0 against Sect not long ago, and it's much harder for him to get the elevator confirm. Also, Donkey Kong may prove troubling as well because he can kill us at 73% with a guaranteed confirm and his moves are both fairly fast and hard to punish on shield, as well as being heavier than us. His weakness is offstage, but he clearly wins the neutral, in no small part due to the speed of his attacks and his long grab range.

Ike does well against characters, like Rosalina and Bayonetta, and can fight against the likes of Pikachu, Toon Link, Ryu, and Sonic. I don't feel there's anything more crippling than Diddy and Sheik, but all of them require a completely different matchup approach. That being said, I'm considering what our best options for secondaries are.

Cloud is one option. He plays similarly to us, due to having a disjointed reach and strong defensive game. However, he is faster, but his problem is that he's more easy to gimp and doesn't hit as hard. We would also lose our advantage against Bayonetta, as Ike has a stronger grab game and kill confirms against her.

Mario is another option. Mario is easy to play and fairly weighted. However, Ally lost to VoiD 3-0 at Pound, so it's not the most go-to option. He did also beat Mr. R 3-2, but while he covers bad matchups, we know Sheik will win.

Finally, there's Corrin, whom both Ryuga and Ryo use. However, I lack experience in using Corrin, so I cannot speak for any of the matchups she covers that Ike does poorly against.

I'm partial to using Cloud, personally. But if it was possible to solo main Ike, I would prefer to go for that approach

 

[FrostyLemon]

I'm starting to sort Ike's bad matchups and wonder what his best secondaries would be. As we know, Ike's worst matchup has historically been Sheik. However, it's no secret that Diddy is highly troublesome. Even though I lost to C3PO, San says there are much better Diddy players. And for starters, Dyr beat Ryo on the same weekend as Tipped Off. Diddy could almost certainly be considered Ike's second worst matchup.

Then you have Mario and Cloud. Mario disrespects and has very fast attacks that are hard to punish, but he also has Cape for Quick Draw and FLUDD for Aether. Even lowest point Aether can be hit. Meanwhile, Cloud can match Ike in neutral, but his juggle game goes completely up in stages like Battlefield and Dream Land. Lylat is a death sentence for Ike.

After that, there are weirder matchups that can prove troubling, like R.O.B. and Captain Falcon. R.O.B. matches our weight, but his disjointed Fairs come out faster than ours and he plays a camping game that forces us to approach. Our best weapon against him is to use his Gyro against him. However, we have no B moves for options that can challenge him. He also has his own DThrow to Uair combo for confirms and is floaty enough to avoid our own confirm ending his stock. Captain Falcon has perhaps the best dashgrab in the game, a multitude of combos to juggle us with, and Dair spikes to beat Aether. We lack aerial defense and fast moves to keep him off of us, and he's not afraid to dash into grab us even if we retreat Bair with autocancel.

I consider them "weirder" because they're troubling, but some of the community may say it's a 50-50. Meta-Knight used to be an awful matchup as well, but I went 3-0 against Sect not long ago, and it's much harder for him to get the elevator confirm. Also, Donkey Kong may prove troubling as well because he can kill us at 73% with a guaranteed confirm and his moves are both fairly fast and hard to punish on shield, as well as being heavier than us. His weakness is offstage, but he clearly wins the neutral, in no small part due to the speed of his attacks and his long grab range.

Ike does well against characters, like Rosalina and Bayonetta, and can fight against the likes of Pikachu, Toon Link, Ryu, and Sonic. I don't feel there's anything more crippling than Diddy and Sheik, but all of them require a completely different matchup approach. That being said, I'm considering what our best options for secondaries are.

Cloud is one option. He plays similarly to us, due to having a disjointed reach and strong defensive game. However, he is faster, but his problem is that he's more easy to gimp and doesn't hit as hard. We would also lose our advantage against Bayonetta, as Ike has a stronger grab game and kill confirms against her.

Mario is another option. Mario is easy to play and fairly weighted. However, Ally lost to VoiD 3-0 at Pound, so it's not the most go-to option. He did also beat Mr. R 3-2, but while he covers bad matchups, we know Sheik will win.

Finally, there's Corrin, whom both Ryuga and Ryo use. However, I lack experience in using Corrin, so I cannot speak for any of the matchups she covers that Ike does poorly against.

I'm partial to using Cloud, personally. But if it was possible to solo main Ike, I would prefer to go for that approach

Interesting.

I've never really had trouble with shiek. However I'm not very good so the shieks I play against probably aren't utilising him the correct way. As I said earlier Cloud is someone I struggle with as he is so similar to us, but is better in some ways. I was also thinking of using him as a secondary, but I was worried that I might end up actually using him instead. When I'm actually decent with Ike I might try a secondary, but I don't want my attention split between two characters.

Btw what do you think of Link as a secondary?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Link's pretty mid-tier. Meaning he has glaring weaknesses regarding his mobility and ending a stock. I don't see him being a viable choice, much as I'd love to use him.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How do you guys feel that Yoshi does vs. Ike? Personally, I think it's either 50-50, or 55-45 Yoshi.

Yoshi is almost as weighted as Ike and seems to die even later. He has an extremely strong neutral on flat stages and is far more dangerous on Battlefield due to the addition of platform combos. His ability to land well does not warrant a weakness on either platform or flat stages.

Ike's disjoint generally keeps Yoshi away. However, an approaching, evasive Yoshi can literally attack twice for every one of Ike's attacks. If he misses with one, he'll simply get the other. His attack speed and aerial movement really keep Ike to force a retreating game. Plus, his Egg Bomb outranges anything Ike throws at him from a distance and forces his approach.

Ike's combo game is virtually nonexistent as Yoshi is a floaty character. UThrow Fair stops confirming around 70% or so, which is highly detrimental as it's his basic damage builder, as well as an effective way to end stocks against a number of heavyweights. Meanwhile, Yoshi has the advantage of early kills with random Fairs - both when jabbing into them off stage and can even use it when Ike has to Up B.

Yoshi's safety is also his greatest weapon, as he can throw out attacks without having to commit to them, avoids punishes, and can even "punish" the punish, so to speak. He has several disjointed or intangible attacks, making his FSmashes and USmashes very safe and harshly punish poor spacing.

Edgeguarding Yoshi is a non-factor, as he has Egg Bombs to cover him and his aerial movement makes airdodging through attacks a cinch. Also, Yoshi's ground game beats out Ike's. Jabs are safe, grab has more range than DTilt, and if you're caught shielding, he simply uses Yoshi Bomb to shatter it.

 

[Arrei]

I'd generally agree with that assessment. Even at best, Yoshi is an odd matchup in general. What we generally want to do is stay at midrange, as we can punish predicted Egg Bombs from that distance with Fair and dash attack, while Yoshi will have to telegraph other approaches with jump ins or dashes. Dair is punishable, but deals frightening shield damage, so keep your shield healthy at all times. Yoshi gets fairly little out of his slow grab, so he won't use it as much (though I hear tell of Uair combos at certain percents), but it should still be watched out for for mixups and it should be punishable just because it's so slow.

Edgeguarding is definitely an exasperating exercise. You should still not let him recover for free, by trying to intercept the arc of his double jumps with Fairs and Uairs (and maybe he'll make an ill-timed attempt to challenge you and lose his super armor in the process), but I've yet to figure out any decent ways for Ike, or most non-speedy characters in general to chase a Yoshi who recovers high, between his air speed and his ability to quickly reverse momentum with B-reverse and Egg Bomb.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I think Yoshi's single biggest weakness is when he approaches. He's such a floaty character he's one of the few who is most susceptible to USmash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Even or slight advantage Ike. Probably even.

You're uh, doing what you used to do with Little Mac Rango: overstating their advantages in the MU and understating Ike's.

Yoshi has some moves with good disjoint to them. They aren't on all of his moves, so he has to rely on those a lot more again Ike thus his options become narrower. And Fair isn't something you should be randomly getting hit by: that sucker has some start up to it. Its a fairly safe option for Yoshi sure due to air mobility, but at the same time you shouldn't be getting randomly hit by it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I played a Yoshi on Smashladder. Much like with our local GA Yoshi, I found out he is really weak to retreating Nairs. It literally shuts down all of his options. I also popped his Fair easily with a retreating Bair, and used Counter to attack him for using Egg Bomb too close to the ledge.

He has some true advantages, being his very fast attacks and combos, but I'm working with some different tools for my next match against Rekindling (Smashladder).

 

[PyroTakun]

I feel it's even. Aside from the eggs and grab, Yoshi wants to be in your face. Retraiting N-Airs and B-Airs will go very far in this MU. As for his recovery it's possible to hit him with U-Smash since it lowers your hurtbox and has the range and disjoint you need to either trade or hit him out of D-Air. Spaced U-Airs are also good here when they go for D-Air or Down B.

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

Can I bother anyone for Jigglypuff tips? My instinct was to wall her out and space, but the particular player who beat me (on FG ;_; ) played so defensively my patience kind of ran out and I went in a little. I guess that's probably a mistake in itself? Is trying to nair, jab and grab in neutral like I usually do the best course of action? When I do go in, I understand offstage is probably a no-zone (wall of pain) but fair and nair seemed to work ok when I wasn't being comboed. Any general or situational options?

 

[Arrei]

Never directly challenge her, attack only at maximum range. Jab is not advised for spacing, only when you have a clear opening and you don't have time for Utilt. Sticking a hurtbox into her means you will lose to Nair and Pound, guaranteed. Retreating aerials are probably your best friend, as her million-year-long hitboxes can't do squat if she's flying face first into a sword.

Chasing her in the air is predictably difficult, but the one thing you want to remember is to get yourself out of harm's way ASAP after trying an attack. The poor FAFs on Ike's aerials will make him a sitting duck if you let Puff get into a position where she can air jump into an aerial punish.

Keep your shield healthy and she might resort to Pound to scare you, but Pound itself is punishable on block, so punish and let your shield recover before blocking again.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can I bother anyone for Jigglypuff tips? My instinct was to wall her out and space, but the particular player who beat me (on FG ;_; ) played so defensively my patience kind of ran out and I went in a little. I guess that's probably a mistake in itself? Is trying to nair, jab and grab in neutral like I usually do the best course of action? When I do go in, I understand offstage is probably a no-zone (wall of pain) but fair and nair seemed to work ok when I wasn't being comboed. Any general or situational options?

Everything you need to know about playing Jigglypuff.

On an off-note, I'd like to add that, when facing Mario, it's best to "box" the character, so to speak. You're not going to get anywhere diving in with Fairs and Bairs. Mario has too many effective auto cancels and safety. It's about staying grounded while using retreating aerials to keep him out of range or punish effectively. Utilizing your jabs, grabs, and especially your DTilts is key in this match. And once you have him past UThrow Fair percent, start FThrowing him offstage so you can prepare Eruption, ledge trump Bair, walk-off Fair, or retreating Fair/Bair if they get back up on stage.

Also, avoid Final Destination. Smashville is better because we can use the floating platform to Aether up in case he FLUDDs us. But overall, we do better on platform stages since he can't catch our landings with USmash.

 

[Caryslan]

Anyone got any advice on how to deal with Corrin? Every time I play as Ike against him, I get decimated. My biggest problem is not even Dragon Shot since I can counter or shield those at range. My biggest problem is the speed of his attacks, the weird angles of some of his moves( like Dragon Lunge) the range of his Smash attacks, and the counter.

I can sometimes bait a Corrin player's counter out, but most of them are good enough to save the counter for when they need it most. And I have been KOed by countered F-Airs and B-Airs, pretty much wrecking whatever monintumI might have and often sending me flying.

How do I fight Corrin? No matter how I play, regardless of if I play more patiently or get very aggressive, its the same story against any half-way decent Corrin. They manage to shut down most of my offense, pressure me at range with their F-Smash, Dragon Lunge, and Dragon Fang Shot, and when I do mount some kind of offense and get some momentum on my side, they push the panic button that is called Counter Surge and often get some cheesy KOs out of it.

I play on For Glory, but I would appreciate some advice. Thanks....

 

[Arrei]

After all this time, I still don't know how to deal with the Toon Link matchup. Obviously he forces us to approach, but how do we space our moves when his Nair is faster and he has his boomerang coming back on a whiff to disrupt a ground attack? What can and can't we punish?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm at the point where I think we should begin sorting all of Ike's bad matchups. This way we know what stages to pick, what strategies to use, and if necessary, whether or not to switch to a secondary.

Anyone got any advice on how to deal with Corrin? Every time I play as Ike against him, I get decimated. My biggest problem is not even Dragon Shot since I can counter or shield those at range. My biggest problem is the speed of his attacks, the weird angles of some of his moves( like Dragon Lunge) the range of his Smash attacks, and the counter.

I can sometimes bait a Corrin player's counter out, but most of them are good enough to save the counter for when they need it most. And I have been KOed by countered F-Airs and B-Airs, pretty much wrecking whatever monintumI might have and often sending me flying.

How do I fight Corrin? No matter how I play, regardless of if I play more patiently or get very aggressive, its the same story against any half-way decent Corrin. They manage to shut down most of my offense, pressure me at range with their F-Smash, Dragon Lunge, and Dragon Fang Shot, and when I do mount some kind of offense and get some momentum on my side, they push the panic button that is called Counter Surge and often get some cheesy KOs out of it.

I play on For Glory, but I would appreciate some advice. Thanks....

They do better in the air since they have near our range and twice our speed. On the ground, their mixups aren't as good. It's either dash grab, Dragon Lunge, or dash attack, the latter two fully punishable on shield. DTilt more often and use your jabs to keep them off if they dashgrab you. If they bait Counters, keep at your ground game and go for dashgrabs into UThrow Fair or FThrow/BThrow offstage and prepare to edgeguard.

Corrin is weak offstage. They're highly susceptible to Counter.

After all this time, I still don't know how to deal with the Toon Link matchup. Obviously he forces us to approach, but how do we space our moves when his Nair is faster and he has his boomerang coming back on a whiff to disrupt a ground attack? What can and can't we punish?

First off, I played a good Toon Link from FL at Fusion 3. He likes platform stages and dislikes Final Destination. He can't get juggles on FD, which takes out part of his damage repertoire. It really comes down to walk-shielding and baiting grabs. Baiting grabs is a huge source of damage, especially since they're more prone to trying it on the ledge.

Toon Link gets another large portion of damage from Boomerang confirms. They LOVE to combo into Boomerang or Bomb into aerials to build damage or kills. It's best to shield or dodge these when the Boomerang and Bombs come out, baiting the inevitable grab attempt. This matchup is about not moving around too much and saving your attacks for when you're sure. Toon Link is not one of the safest characters on the roster, and his hitlag is perhaps the very reason why we have a neutral to slight advantage in this MU.

Lastly, here's an Ike matchup chart I made.

 

[WeirdNick]

Here's my opinion of ike's MUs

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Rango, we beat Sonic. Very clearly. Like 60-40. Results don't lie, particularly when they're that varied.

Also a large amount of the 50-50s are suspect, though I'd only say Bayo is worse than 50-50 out of the suspect ones.

 

[Yoh]

After all this time, I still don't know how to deal with the Toon Link matchup. Obviously he forces us to approach, but how do we space our moves when his Nair is faster and he has his boomerang coming back on a whiff to disrupt a ground attack? What can and can't we punish?

I try to share my experience with Toon Link since it is one of my most played matchups.
First of all some general things, like you say it´s clear that Toon Link forces Ike to approach, you can try to interrupt him while he is throwing an item since Ike´s attacks will beat the projectile and hit Toon Link. If he is farther away just keep your patience and continue shielding until he has no space to run away anymore near a ledge. Thats when you try an offense.

Do not attack him when he has a bomb in his hand, since it is a very good oos option which leads into killconfirms, do not try to punish his bumerang, you can shieldgrab him if he uses his bumerang very very close, but that´s the only situation.
Toon Link has very fast rolls but they have a short distance, keep that in mind if you want to punish his rolls.
Toon Link can not grab well spaced aerials, if he trys and whiffs his grab just dash attack him or so.

His Recovery is not the best, you can try a counter or eruption if he uses up b, if he his going for zair just do a walkoff fair.
And if you can recover with side B always do it, because he can throw bombs/Bumerang into your aether and then he will fair you and you´re probably gonna die, if you use aether it´s important to sweetspott it correctly.

Ah and another thing at low %, pay attention not to get hit by an utilt, if he gets it he can do like 50% for free, with some utilts into usmash or fsmash. If utilt or usmash hit your shield from behind you can do turn around jab or grab, but you have to be fast.

I hope there was at least anything which could help you a little bit.

 

[Mario766]

We beat Falcon and we beat Sonic. I feel we go even with DK but barely anyone plays the MU correctly to the same level DKWill does.

ROB isn't bad either, even.

 

[Arrei]

I'm not comfortable saying we beat Falcon - doesn't he match nearly every advantage or disadvantage we have with the same strength or weakness? Combo food, grab combos, long reach, difficulty approaching, exploitable recoveries but powerful edgeguard tools, highly situational specials. That feels too much like something even to me.

 

[PyroTakun]

Ike beats Sonic, not so sure about Falcon. I agree with Rango on DK though.

Actually, why not just go over the details of the DK MU? I'd like to get everyone's thoughts before adding my two cents.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Do we beat Sonic 60-40, though? Both times 6WX fought Ryo were really close. It wouldn't be a stretch to say it's 55:45 in our favor.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

We beat Falcon and we beat Sonic. I feel we go even with DK but barely anyone plays the MU correctly to the same level DKWill does.

ROB isn't bad either, even.

We definitely do not beat Falcon. We can win with great difficulty, while Falcon takes only a few reads into mixups into Fair or Dair spike. He is a killing machine with one of the single greatest jabs in the game, a very long dash grab range, and is relatively safe on his approach options. We can't keep him off of us if he Uairs into our shields.

Ryo chose to go Roy against Falcon, not Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryo does silly things all of the time because he plays like, the entire FE cast + half of low tier.

Falcon I'd probably guess at 50-50.

Sonic I truly think is 60-40. Its hard to say its 55-45 when well, the results are just so stacked in one direction, with multiple high level mains on both sides in the equation. Only Seagull Joe has a winning record against high level Ikes, but its also the Sonic main that's gone up against the fewest Ikes. All of the other ones have been beaten by multiple other Ikes repeatedly, occasionally forced off of Sonic like in Static Manny's case.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What specifically causes Ike to win the Sonic matchup?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Very easy time punishing spin dash. Not only the spin dash itself but the options out of spin dash. Pivot grab absolutely demolishes it, and then that in turn makes us win the damage race because yay throw combos. You can also jab it, punish Sonic for trying to charge it up with Dash Attack, Dtilt it, shield and then Utilt to stuff his options out: spin dash is not a big deal for Ike.

We easily win the KOing race. By like miles. If Sonic doesn't get a fluky spring gimp you're living to 150%+ easy.

Sonic also struggles a lot against Nair and Fair. Fair auto-cancels, nothing to punish. Nair has super low landing lag and covers all of the angles he can try to approach from.

Sonic has an edge in gimping recoveries in this MU yes, but you can still Eruption his Up B, or go for a walk-off Fair depending on what he does.

If you screw up ya you're taking a mouth full of damage. Welcome to Ike in general.

Just... watch Ryo vs Static Manny. That's how the MU plays out at the top level. Results don't lie: Ike wins. And I can say that from experience because that's the one Ike MU I've played out semi-frequently offline.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Very easy time punishing spin dash. Not only the spin dash itself but the options out of spin dash. Pivot grab absolutely demolishes it, and then that in turn makes us win the damage race because yay throw combos. You can also jab it, punish Sonic for trying to charge it up with Dash Attack, Dtilt it, shield and then Utilt to stuff his options out: spin dash is not a big deal for Ike.

We easily win the KOing race. By like miles. If Sonic doesn't get a fluky spring gimp you're living to 150%+ easy.

Sonic also struggles a lot against Nair and Fair. Fair auto-cancels, nothing to punish. Nair has super low landing lag and covers all of the angles he can try to approach from.

Sonic has an edge in gimping recoveries in this MU yes, but you can still Eruption his Up B, or go for a walk-off Fair depending on what he does.

If you screw up ya you're taking a mouth full of damage. Welcome to Ike in general.

Just... watch Ryo vs Static Manny. That's how the MU plays out at the top level. Results don't lie: Ike wins. And I can say that from experience because that's the one Ike MU I've played out semi-frequently offline.

I've always had problems with Spin Dash, mainly because they would punish my retreating Nair. I haven't tried pivot grab, but I imagine mistiming that would cause problems. I heard Quick Draw was a good way to neutralize it, but I don't know how to punish their game after stopping Spin Dash. They win the jab war.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why are you getting into a jab war in the first place? Why haven't you tried pivot grab when we've seen saying use pivot grab since like, 1.0.4 and Ryo has been using it for ages? Why on earth would anybody ever use Quick Draw against Spin Dash?

Sit down, watch Ryo vs Static Manny, figure out the MU. Because its one of our best MUs.