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Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

MugenSSB

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Well this is of course assuming they are hit far enough away or don't have enough jumps to recover any other way. If the mk opts to try and stall just be patient and wait for it, If they decide to snap you can run off and counter assuming you read their timings. It takes a bit of reading but if you count their jumps (5) it shouldn't be too difficult. Drill rush isn't as common, but after you counter their shuttle loop they will use it as a mix up for sure. Should all of those fail and they manage to grab ledge safely I find a shield to pivot grab works well when they try to get back on. :happysheep:
 
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-m0

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I agree with you. After seeing M2k vs. Ryo exhibition released by MVG yesterday, I noticed that while cloud can combo Ike with Uairs and is faster than Ike, Ike makes up by having more solid follow ups off of grabs as well as being able to counter cloud while he is recovering, down-tilt cloud while he is recovering (because cloud can't snap to the ledge unless he gets the distance perfectly) and I'm pretty sure a down-angled ftilt can catch cloud recovering. Also, because Cloud can't snap to the ledge, Ike's dair can catch Cloud's recovery. One problem I saw ally facing when trying to punish M2k for charging limit, was that Ally's characters (except for Marth) don't have as much disjoint, so I believe that because Ike has a good disjoint, you can safely apply shield pressure to cloud when he is charging his limit
M2K's Cloud is mad basic. He's really not the best example of high level Cloud play. And are you really going to catch Cloud's recovery with dair? You'll have so few opportunities...
I definitely agree with you here. Every character has tons of different options to recover... it's why you see people on the Mario boards be like ZOMG we win the Cloud and Ike matchup because Aether lol gimp lol... but Ike's/Cloud's are barely ever forced to use Aether at all... and when they do, the Mario/whatever char is not even in a position to punish it/gimp it. Notice how I said "if you're ever forced to use Aether and I'm onstage in a position to punish" and "if you Quickdraw from far away, I can punish with this". You're barely ever forced to be in those situations... but if you are, then I can do this.
We can mix up our recovery so we're rarely in a position to get gimped during or right after Climhazzard, please read my posts. I'm not saying cloud wins, but his recovery isn't as bad of a problem as you think. Climhazzard pokes the ldge to interrupt smashes... we can DJAD toward the stage and cancel it with Climhazzard for in invincible sweetspot... we can wall jump, I said more stuff in my other post...
 
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-m0

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Well this is of course assuming they are hit far enough away or don't have enough jumps to recover any other way. If the mk opts to try and stall just be patient and wait for it, If they decide to snap you can run off and counter assuming you read their timings. It takes a bit of reading but if you count their jumps (5) it shouldn't be too difficult. Drill rush isn't as common, but after you counter their shuttle loop they will use it as a mix up for sure. Should all of those fail and they manage to grab ledge safely I find a shield to pivot grab works well when they try to get back on. :happysheep:
Couldn't MK just Cape back onstage?
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Dair really is not a safe option. Tons of endlag, and if you go offstage, that's your neck on the line.

Walk-off Fair if you catch the angle while he's falling. Otherwise stick to the stage and rely on DTilt, Eruption, ledge trump Bair, or Counter. You have plenty of safe options without going for something that has a weak hitbox for spiking and tons of startup.
 

-m0

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Dair really is not a safe option. Tons of endlag, and if you go offstage, that's your neck on the line.

Walk-off Fair if you catch the angle while he's falling. Otherwise stick to the stage and rely on DTilt, Eruption, ledge trump Bair, or Counter. You have plenty of safe options without going for something that has a weak hitbox for spiking and tons of startup.
Exactly.
 

-m0

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MK could but that's the least safe of all his options, the cape can be shielded on hit and punished with utilt or if caped away from you its a free dash attack
He doesn't have to strike...

But I think I know what you're saying. If MK Shuttles/Drill Rushes to recover, you can counter it and gimp him. How do counters interact with Shuttle? He loops pretty fast... If he gets the sourspot, do you miss with Counter?
 

MasterExocuter

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Dair really is not a safe option. Tons of endlag, and if you go offstage, that's your neck on the line.

Walk-off Fair if you catch the angle while he's falling. Otherwise stick to the stage and rely on DTilt, Eruption, ledge trump Bair, or Counter. You have plenty of safe options without going for something that has a weak hitbox for spiking and tons of startup.
I wasn't thinking of offstage dair, I was thinking of standing at the ledge and doing a dair. In most situations, dtilt and eruption are probably the more reasonable options, however I'm thinking that Ike's dair onstage at the ledge would be good for low percent gimp spikes. I know I've gotten the 2 frame on characters before, however I think it would be even easier on Cloud since he doesn't snap to the ledge. It's a risk I would be willing to take if I was at a large percent deficit or a stock behind.
 

Prepare_Yourself

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I think I've seen Ryo pull this off, one of his matches against Day IIRC, but that's the ONLY time; it's so difficult to time I don't know if I'd even consider it an option.
 

Arrei

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Counter hasn't served me very well against MK. Unless he spaced his recovery exceptionally poorly, he moves too quick to be hit by the counterattack. I've gotten more kills from predicting an early Shuttle Loop and using Eruption than countering.

And the only time I've ever gotten anything off an on-stage Dair was when I just so happened to spike a Robin through Omega Poke Stadium as he traced the ledge with Elwind. I don't think I was even trying to do it at the time, I'm pretty sure I was attempting to go offstage and missed, getting the spike by serendipity.

To reiterate, you guys want to get through our wall before we can charge Limit too much. This may force Ike to play a more rushdown-oriented style you guys aren’t used to, but don’t rush straight in and get punished lol.
Our jab is frame 4, just like Cloud's. Besides the combo being 3% stronger, the difference is Ike hunches over as he punches to give his Jab 1 greater reach, and while it's nowhere near guaranteed he has much more success canceling his jab into other options. On the other hand Cloud has tech chase options after his jab.

I've definitely found a careful rush approach to be more effective against Cloud, especially if you can use said strategy to goad him into being more aggressive in an attempt to get you off of him, since he's quite unsafe on shield. A tool that's been giving me a little grief lately is actually Cloud literally making a wall with his sword in his dash attack - it's quick and throws out a protective disjoint, making jab spacing a bit more hazardous. Punishable on block, of course, but Cloud can have some success getting us off him with that thing.
 
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MasterExocuter

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Counter hasn't served me very well against MK. Unless he spaced his recovery exceptionally poorly, he moves too quick to be hit by the counterattack. I've gotten more kills from predicting an early Shuttle Loop and using Eruption than countering.

And the only time I've ever gotten anything off an on-stage Dair was when I just so happened to spike a Robin through Omega Poke Stadium as he traced the ledge with Elwind. I don't think I was even trying to do it at the time, I'm pretty sure I was attempting to go offstage and missed, getting the spike by serendipity.



Our jab is frame 4, just like Cloud's. Besides the combo being 3% stronger, the difference is Ike hunches over as he punches to give his Jab 1 greater reach, and while it's nowhere near guaranteed he has much more success canceling his jab into other options. On the other hand Cloud has tech chase options after his jab.

I've definitely found a careful rush approach to be more effective against Cloud, especially if you can use said strategy to goad him into being more aggressive in an attempt to get you off of him, since he's quite unsafe on shield. A tool that's been giving me a little grief lately is actually Cloud literally making a wall with his sword in his dash attack - it's quick and throws out a protective disjoint, making jab spacing a bit more hazardous. Punishable on block, of course, but Cloud can have some success getting us off him with that thing.
I've found Tomohawking to be effective against clouds who hide in their shields too much after charging limit. That, and empty hopping while they are on platforms can get them to throw out shield allowing you to get a pivot grab if you land behind them
 

-m0

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Counter hasn't served me very well against MK. Unless he spaced his recovery exceptionally poorly, he moves too quick to be hit by the counterattack. I've gotten more kills from predicting an early Shuttle Loop and using Eruption than countering.

And the only time I've ever gotten anything off an on-stage Dair was when I just so happened to spike a Robin through Omega Poke Stadium as he traced the ledge with Elwind. I don't think I was even trying to do it at the time, I'm pretty sure I was attempting to go offstage and missed, getting the spike by serendipity.



Our jab is frame 4, just like Cloud's. Besides the combo being 3% stronger, the difference is Ike hunches over as he punches to give his Jab 1 greater reach, and while it's nowhere near guaranteed he has much more success canceling his jab into other options. On the other hand Cloud has tech chase options after his jab.

I've definitely found a careful rush approach to be more effective against Cloud, especially if you can use said strategy to goad him into being more aggressive in an attempt to get you off of him, since he's quite unsafe on shield. A tool that's been giving me a little grief lately is actually Cloud literally making a wall with his sword in his dash attack - it's quick and throws out a protective disjoint, making jab spacing a bit more hazardous. Punishable on block, of course, but Cloud can have some success getting us off him with that thing.
I'm not sure where your problems are with DA. Care to elaborate? To me it seems DA doesn't actually have that much disjoint due to him simply putting the sword in front of him. I'm probably wrong, as I've never used DA except as a followup after jab/bthrow or as a landing catch with the lingering hitbox.

But yeah, pressure safely, see if you can get him to misspace an attack and punish.
 

MasterExocuter

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I'm not sure where your problems are with DA. Care to elaborate? To me it seems DA doesn't actually have that much disjoint due to him simply putting the sword in front of him. I'm probably wrong, as I've never used DA except as a followup after jab/bthrow or as a landing catch with the lingering hitbox.

But yeah, pressure safely, see if you can get him to misspace an attack and punish.
I think that with Cloud's dash attack, the main selling point is that it makes cloud a moving hitbox. Unlike characters like Pit and Peach who have deadzones on their DA, Cloud's DA has pretty good coverage. I agree maybe not that much disjoint, but it definitely comes out pretty quick.
 

-m0

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I think that with Cloud's dash attack, the main selling point is that it makes cloud a moving hitbox. Unlike characters like Pit and Peach who have deadzones on their DA, Cloud's DA has pretty good coverage. I agree maybe not that much disjoint, but it definitely comes out pretty quick.
And the hitbox lingers...
I guess I'm just not seeing the way Arrei Arrei is having a problem with it.
 

Arrei

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Basically, I jab to space and end up punching a sword for my troubles, which ends about as well as you'd expect.

My only point is that being defensive tends to not work out as well for us as it does for other matchups.
 

-m0

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Basically, I jab to space and end up punching a sword for my troubles, which ends about as well as you'd expect.

My only point is that being defensive tends to not work out as well for us as it does for other matchups.
specially since we got limit, you should play much more aggresive zoning.
 

Cereal Bawks

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Oop. well sorry. Original post edited. Goddamnit, Cloud needs to actually stretch his damn arms like bair so he can make use of his huge sword! What about grounded moves? can we slide under stuff like utilt and ftilt?
Not sure about ftilt, but I doubt you can slide under utilt. The hitbox starts at Ike's feet.

Then you can take advantage of Ike's better CQC like jab (what frame is Ike's? iirc Cloud's is frame 4) and your MUCH better grab.
Frame 4, same as Cloud's.
 

-m0

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Not sure about ftilt, but I doubt you can slide under utilt. The hitbox starts at Ike's feet.



Frame 4, same as Cloud's.
Yeah, my boy Arrei told me about it. What are Ike's options against juggling? I'm thinking AD-cancel nair would a good option for getting down from our juggles.
 

MasterExocuter

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Yeah, my boy Arrei told me about it. What are Ike's options against juggling? I'm thinking AD-cancel nair would a good option for getting down from our juggles.
Ike gets juggled pretty hard. His airdodge is just enough to dodge Cloud's Uair, however on stages like smashville with the platform, Cloud can apply more aerial pressure with Uairs from the ground and from platforms. Nair seems like Ike's only universal option, however it would have to be fast fell or timed just right to catch cloud. I've used dair before, and I think it has okay coverage on stages with platforms like dreamland or battlefield.
 

-m0

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Ike gets juggled pretty hard. His airdodge is just enough to dodge Cloud's Uair, however on stages like smashville with the platform, Cloud can apply more aerial pressure with Uairs from the ground and from platforms. Nair seems like Ike's only universal option, however it would have to be fast fell or timed just right to catch cloud. I've used dair before, and I think it has okay coverage on stages with platforms like dreamland or battlefield.
Of course you always have Counter, but I think you should save that for when it counts, otherwise you get predicted and RIP in pepperoni. What are Ike's tools in this matchup besides gimping, which has already been discussed plenty?
 

MasterExocuter

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Of course you always have Counter, but I think you should save that for when it counts, otherwise you get predicted and RIP in pepperoni. What are Ike's tools in this matchup besides gimping, which has already been discussed plenty?
Ike his standard uthrow-fair and dthrow combos as well as nair-->grab at low percents. don't know how well Ike's 0-47 footstool combo works on cloud, but it probably works if he falls fast
 

MugenSSB

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He doesn't have to strike...

But I think I know what you're saying. If MK Shuttles/Drill Rushes to recover, you can counter it and gimp him. How do counters interact with Shuttle? He loops pretty fast... If he gets the sourspot, do you miss with Counter?
Even if its a sourspot the counter still connects. And idk it is pretty fast but not too fast where you cant react to it.
 
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-m0

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Ike his standard uthrow-fair and dthrow combos as well as nair-->grab at low percents. don't know how well Ike's 0-47 footstool combo works on cloud, but it probably works if he falls fast
Cloud falls faster in Limit, otherwise he's more floaty than fastfaller. Are all of Ike's strings true? Cause we may be able to Climhazzard out of some of them. Is Cloud vulnerable to Ike's uthrow->fair at kill percent? I heard thats true at certain percents.
 

Arrei

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Pretty much Ike's only universal option to get out of juggles is to observe our pursuer and dodge - Ike isn't the fastest faller but still has enough momentum to slip through, kind of like Cloud himself. Dair's too slow, and Nair and Fair both start above him so their usefulness for that purpose is limited. Bair has slight coverage of Ike's hitbox, so that'll sometimes work if he's positioned just right. If he's near the sides he can Aether to the ledge as a quick way down like Bowser Bombing the ledge does. (I also wanted to try some fakeout techniques with Quick Draw - charging it from a safe height so that my opponent thinks I'm going one way and moves to catch me, and then simply not releasing it, anticlimactically landing back on the ground. Or release it as planned if I see them coming in hot.)

I haven't tested it, but I don't believe Uthrow -> Fair is enough to kill Cloud. It only barely kills light fastfallers like Fox, it can't kill ones like Faptain. That said, Uthrow -> Fair still sends you quite a ways offstage to set up an edgeguard.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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I wasn't thinking of offstage dair, I was thinking of standing at the ledge and doing a dair. In most situations, dtilt and eruption are probably the more reasonable options, however I'm thinking that Ike's dair onstage at the ledge would be good for low percent gimp spikes. I know I've gotten the 2 frame on characters before, however I think it would be even easier on Cloud since he doesn't snap to the ledge. It's a risk I would be willing to take if I was at a large percent deficit or a stock behind.
There's still another problem with that, though. Cloud players can, and will, maximize the range they have to snap the ledge. If you watch my fight with Dingo, he does this nearly every time he recovers. I posted it on another thread, but for the sake of convenience, here it is.

 
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WorstGanonWorld

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Ike has an easier timer escaping Cloud´s up air on stages like BF imo as Quickdraw becomes a better tool for mix ups. Otherwise it´s pretty rough.
I haven't tested it, but I don't believe Uthrow -> Fair is enough to kill Cloud. It only barely kills light fastfallers like Fox, it can't kill ones like Faptain. That said, Uthrow -> Fair still sends you quite a ways offstage to set up an edgeguard.
(Had to use Training Mode as I don´t have the means to perform more precise tests right now so no rage/stale/di factored in)


uthrow>uair on Cloud is true up to 133% (Could be more but I stopped at that point) and starts killing at 92%(FD)
We can assume that uthrow>fair connects at even later % due to it being a bit faster than uair.(uthrow>fair starts killing at early 100´s at the ledge, also FD)
 
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Arrei

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Hmm. I must be doing this very wrong, then. Back to the lab.
 

Cereal Bawks

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Went into training mode (again no rage or DI and stuff), and uthrow > fair is still true and kills at 110% near the edge, and just barely kills at ~130% center-stage. It kills ~115% on the side platforms in Battlefield, but it can be DI'd. Same percentage at the top platform, but it might also be DI-able.
 

-m0

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Went into training mode (again no rage or DI and stuff), and uthrow > fair is still true and kills at 110% near the edge, and just barely kills at ~130% center-stage. It kills ~115% on the side platforms in Battlefield, but it can be DI'd. Same percentage at the top platform, but it might also be DI-able.
Ok, so we know that's something in Ike's favor. Something I was wondering though... What can Ike do against a Cloud in Limit with increased dash+fall speed who basically just runs away from him, occasionally doing some "get off me" nairs/bairs? Aiming to time the Ike out.
 

Arrei

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Ike may not be a speedster, but he's not so easy to get away from, especially if that involves jumping over him where his aerials shine.
 

-m0

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Ike may not be a speedster, but he's not so easy to get away from, especially if that involves jumping over him where his aerials shine.
Okay, do you think this is sufficient to keep Cloud from timing him out? What about a larger stage with platforms like Halberd/Duck Hunt?
 

Arrei

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I mean, I can't say with full certainty, I've never run into someone who fully devoted themselves to running the clock down. But the only character that's ever come close to timing me out as Ike was Pac-Man, and that's because a huge part of his modus operandi involves running away and leaving piles of garbage in your way that you have to get past. Cloud only has his Blade Beam, which he can't use without losing that Limit speed buff, so I'd say he can't really lame it out.

I don't think your typical platform stage will be an issue since Cloud does still have to put himself in Ike's strike zone but Duck Hunt might be a stage where laming out might occur due to that tree, though. I'm assuming Cloud can get up there without using Climhazzard.
 

-m0

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I mean, I can't say with full certainty, I've never run into someone who fully devoted themselves to running the clock down. But the only character that's ever come close to timing me out as Ike was Pac-Man, and that's because a huge part of his modus operandi involves running away and leaving piles of garbage in your way that you have to get past. Cloud only has his Blade Beam, which he can't use without losing that Limit speed buff, so I'd say he can't really lame it out.

I don't think your typical platform stage will be an issue since Cloud does still have to put himself in Ike's strike zone but Duck Hunt might be a stage where laming out might occur due to that tree, though. I'm assuming Cloud can get up there without using Climhazzard.
Cloud likes Battlefield because he can upb OOS and land on the main platform, whereas he can't on Dream Land or Midgar.

Also, I've found Duck Hunt to be a great stage for Cloud. While the higher vertical blastzone decreases our uair and Finishing Touch kills, we can kill easily off the side with fsmash and LB Cross Slash, and the tree gives us a great place to charge Limit safely, especially against chars with low jumps and/or inflexible recovery moves.
Yeah, and if you get on the tree, you'll have to deal with our uair, nair, bair, and Cross Slash as you try to get back down. Not to mention if we get a Finishing Touch up there, it's over.
 

WorstGanonWorld

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For consistency's sake, it might be better to focus on Fairs instead since they're more reliable.
I think it´s really important for Ike mains to get good at uthrow>uair because it kills much earlier than uthrow>fair. Being able to end a stock at like 75-90% off of a grab + rage is too good to pass up. (On the characters that it works on, of course.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Went up against Sect (Meta-Knight) at SDS today. Lost at Game 5, but went to the last hit. Really came down to him going for inescapable Uair Up B combos vs. me punishing his dash attack attempts. Some of them were hard to punish if he crossed past me too far. Otherwise, during doubles, I know I can Utilt his Down B on shield. Sadly, it was a Down B that ended me in singles. He has a bad habit of flying too long, so I know my Uair can get him. Also, great advice for edgeguarding. When you smell the Up B coming, spot dodge and then ledge trump. He fell for it.

Went up against RDR7 (Jigglypuff) in loser's and lost. She gets in like no other, can gimp, but worst of all is he's discovered a Rest combo. He hit a combo into Rest and killed me early. Don't sleep on Jiggs. We may not seem to have a lot of Jiggs matchup data, but that's also because no relevant Jigglypuffs ever put up a fight against Ike. RDR7 busted me hard 3-1. I even went Cloud and couldn't do jack, but there's definitely a method to the matchup and we need to be careful.

That said, I have a lot of training to do.
 
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PyroTakun

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Went up against Sect (Meta-Knight) at SDS today. Lost at Game 5, but went to the last hit. Really came down to him going for inescapable Uair Up B combos vs. me punishing his dash attack attempts. Some of them were hard to punish if he crossed past me too far. Otherwise, during doubles, I know I can Utilt his Down B on shield. Sadly, it was a Down B that ended me in singles. He has a bad habit of flying too long, so I know my Uair can get him. Also, great advice for edgeguarding. When you smell the Up B coming, spot dodge and then ledge trump. He fell for it.

Went up against RDR7 (Jigglypuff) in loser's and lost. She gets in like no other, can gimp, but worst of all is he's discovered a Rest combo. He hit a combo into Rest and killed me early. Don't sleep on Jiggs. We may not seem to have a lot of Jiggs matchup data, but that's also because no relevant Jigglypuffs ever put up a fight against Ike. RDR7 busted me hard 3-1. I even went Cloud and couldn't do jack, but there's definitely a method to the matchup and we need to be careful.

That said, I have a lot of training to do.
I also lost to a Jiggs in a tournament today, went to game 3 last stock last hit situation. She's definitely tricky to fight.

Spacing F-Airs is definitely crucial to the MU.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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I also lost to a Jiggs in a tournament today, went to game 3 last stock last hit situation. She's definitely tricky to fight.

Spacing F-Airs is definitely crucial to the MU.
I honestly have to debate the Fairs because, if not autocanceled properly, Jiggs just gets in. I feel the only way you're going to hit her is to get out of her range unless you want her to just Fair you in the face on Frame 8. Bairs seem a bit better to space with.

I also think about the possibility of using USmash when you can. You run the risk of getting hit by Rest, but given how much she flies around your head, she's more vulnerable to it than most characters.

I feel the Jigglypuff matchup has been sorely neglected and underestimated. When in truth, she has tools to get in and destroy us.
 

Arrei

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She has tools to get in, but everyone seems to believe she loses hard to disjoints. My Jigglypuff strategy is basically "Move like they do". As one might expect, with such good air speed and such poor ground speed, the overwhelming majority of her approaches will be aerial, so shields are an invaluable tool against her. After getting Wall of Pained a few too many times way back when, I adopted a shield-heavy mindset. However, camping in a shield alone won't accomplish much, with her air speed it's much too easy for her to drift out of harm's way after an approach. (She also has Pound, but it has so much endlag it's a free punish so she'll want to surprise you with it when your shield's already weakened enough to shatter)

So, I watch her habits and attempt to emulate her movements - if she tries the front of my shield I go for fairly straight jumps and try to hit her with FF Nair/Fair, if she likes to try to land on me or go behind me, I jump backward for the aerial. I tend to prefer full hops, which give me more time to position myself but are more telegraphed, short hops require me to let her get closer before moving, which can get dangerous. Her attacks last quite a long time, which serves her well in hand-to-hand (hand-to-foot? Hand-to-stump?) altercations but keeps her in harm's way against disjoints. As long as I don't let her drag me offstage or hit me with Bair, I've got plenty of time to watch for my chance. I want to work more Bair spacing in there too, but it's quite difficult to aim that hitbox at her.

As for edgeguarding, I... don't. Maybe that's wrong, but in this matchup offstage is Jigglypuff's element and Ike's Kryptonite. Jigglypuff is super mobile and can screw with recoveries almost laughably easy, and if you're out there wasting air jumps and getting yourself in a bad spot, you're throwing away a stock for a super low chance of getting a kill. Better to try and catch her with a tilt or aerial as she floats onstage.
 
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-m0

Smash Ace
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I honestly have to debate the Fairs because, if not autocanceled properly, Jiggs just gets in. I feel the only way you're going to hit her is to get out of her range unless you want her to just Fair you in the face on Frame 8. Bairs seem a bit better to space with.

I also think about the possibility of using USmash when you can. You run the risk of getting hit by Rest, but given how much she flies around your head, she's more vulnerable to it than most characters.

I feel the Jigglypuff matchup has been sorely neglected and underestimated. When in truth, she has tools to get in and destroy us.
What about utilt as an alternative to usmash? The high lingering hitbox might work well there.
 
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