Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

Swooch on in

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Oh dang MewSquared MewSquared hey man I watch you guys over at at tourney locator all the time you are super sick and tell hyrulehero grats on third last week awesome link play also I still would like to see if I could just get a quick Mario rundown if you guys already discussed it
 
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I've been getting bodied by bowser grab setups out of jab, and Bowser's uthrow->uair is now a force to be reckoned with. While before the patch I would have placed Ike above bowser, now I can say with confidence I think it is 50:50; whoever messes up first in footsies is gonna die.
+1
 
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vs. Sonic

Kill percents to use on Sonic.

Ike vs. Sonic (Smashville/Final Destination)

UTilt

105%

FTilt

Ledge - 99%
Roll - 116%
Midscreen - 129%

UThrow-Uair

Base - 90% (airdodge bait only)
Platform - 77% (Smashville only)

UThrow-Fair

Stops being a safe true combo after 85%
Will not kill unless you're on the platform on Smashville or Town & City

DThrow

174%

Uair

Platform - 110%

Fair

Ledge - 99%
Roll - 116%
Midscreen - 129%

Bair

Ledge trump - 74%
Ledge - 84%
Roll - 98%
Midscreen - 109%

USmash

89%
82% (platform. Smashville only)

FSmash

Ledge - 49%
Roll - 56%
Midscreen - 70%

Dash attack

Ledge - 91%
Roll - 112%
Midscreen - 128%

*Please Note: These are minimum kill percents involving Deadly Blow (red lightning). These are unaffected by DI, but the minimum possible damage you need to inflict for a kill using the attack.

Also note that rage is in no way factored into this. Due to the constantly changing nature of modifiers, the best assumption to use is simply reduce percents based on your rage. If you can kill Sonic at 105% with no rage, there's a good chance you can finish him at 95% after your rage hits 120% or so. Likewise, Sonic derives much of his kill strength with rage, using the added power to finish fights with BThrow, UThrow, or FThrow.

One strategy you could use is, after 85%, start pummeling to 90% and switch to Fair. He'll likely airdodge assuming another Fair is coming. This is where you bait the airdodge and pop the Uair on him instead. Please note that Sonic has great aerial movement in this game (ranked 9th-11th), so it's imperative you react to his direction, preparing for him to move towards or away you. Naturally, remember that these percents won't be the same on Battlefield, so stick with Smashville. After all, we are NOT taking Sonic to FD.

Counter strategies
Jabs
-Jab 3 is punishable DTilt
-Jab 1 can be powershielded and countered with jab1

Ftilt
-Not punishable by DTilt at max range
-Not punishable by dash grab
-Punishable by FTilt

DTilt
-Completely unpunishable on shield (DTilt, FTilt, dash grab)

FSmash
-Completely unpunishable on shield.

USmash
-Punishable by USmash
-Punishable by UTilt
-Punishable by DTilt

DSmash
-Punishable by walk-up DTilt
-Punishable by walk-up UTilt

Homing Attack
-Not punishable by Bair except with strict timing
-Punishable by Quick Draw
-Punishable by dash grabs

Spin Dash
-Clanks with Side B
--Immediately power shield into jabs. (Courtesy of Reflex)

Spin Charge
-Completely beaten out by Quick Draw

There's not a lot you can do with Spring, which will be one of his mixups when he Spin Dashes into your shield. Your best bets are to chase him around the air and bait for Uair or read his Dair autocancel and go for a dashgrab or pivot FTilt or dashgrab, as he may roll into you or away from you.

As far as Sonic goes, his FSmash kills roughly at 100%. After you hit 100% is when you need to be cautious of his kill moves. Make sure you do not get up on the platform with him at 80% or he can kill you with UThrow Uair true combo.
 
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Crelrn

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vs. Sonic

Kill percents to use on Sonic.

Ike vs. Sonic (Smashville/Final Destination)

UTilt

105%

FTilt

Ledge - 99%
Roll - 116%
Midscreen - 129%

UThrow-Uair

Base - 90% (airdodge bait only)
Platform - 77% (Smashville only)

UThrow-Fair

Stops being a safe true combo after 85%
Will not kill unless you're on the platform on Smashville or Town & City

DThrow

174%

Uair

Platform - 110%

Fair

Ledge - 99%
Roll - 116%
Midscreen - 129%

Bair

Ledge trump - 74%
Ledge - 84%
Roll - 98%
Midscreen - 109%

USmash

89%
82% (platform. Smashville only)

FSmash

Ledge - 49%
Roll - 56%
Midscreen - 70%

Dash attack

Ledge - 91%
Roll - 112%
Midscreen - 128%

*Please Note: These are minimum kill percents involving Deadly Blow (red lightning). These are unaffected by DI, but the minimum possible damage you need to inflict for a kill using the attack.

Also note that rage is in no way factored into this. Due to the constantly changing nature of modifiers, the best assumption to use is simply reduce percents based on your rage. If you can kill Sonic at 105% with no rage, there's a good chance you can finish him at 95% after your rage hits 120% or so. Likewise, Sonic derives much of his kill strength with rage, using the added power to finish fights with BThrow, UThrow, or FThrow.

One strategy you could use is, after 85%, start pummeling to 90% and switch to Fair. He'll likely airdodge assuming another Fair is coming. This is where you bait the airdodge and pop the Uair on him instead. Please note that Sonic has great aerial movement in this game (ranked 9th-11th), so it's imperative you react to his direction, preparing for him to move towards or away you. Naturally, remember that these percents won't be the same on Battlefield, so stick with Smashville. After all, we are NOT taking Sonic to FD.

Counter strategies
Jabs
-Jab 3 is punishable DTilt
-Jab 1 can be powershielded and countered with jab1

Ftilt
-Not punishable by DTilt at max range
-Not punishable by dash grab
-Punishable by FTilt

DTilt
-Completely unpunishable on shield (DTilt, FTilt, dash grab)

FSmash
-Completely unpunishable on shield.

USmash
-Punishable by USmash
-Punishable by UTilt
-Punishable by DTilt

DSmash
-Punishable by walk-up DTilt
-Punishable by walk-up UTilt

Homing Attack
-Not punishable by Bair except with strict timing
-Punishable by Quick Draw
-Punishable by dash grabs

Spin Dash
-Clanks with Side B
--Immediately power shield into jabs. (Courtesy of Reflex)

Spin Charge
-Completely beaten out by Quick Draw

There's not a lot you can do with Spring, which will be one of his mixups when he Spin Dashes into your shield. Your best bets are to chase him around the air and bait for Uair or read his Dair autocancel and go for a dashgrab or pivot FTilt or dashgrab, as he may roll into you or away from you.

As far as Sonic goes, his FSmash kills roughly at 100%. After you hit 100% is when you need to be cautious of his kill moves. Make sure you do not get up on the platform with him at 80% or he can kill you with UThrow Uair true combo.
Thanks for the info! There's a bunch of Sonics here in the PNW and this is awesome to have.
 
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Thanks for the info! There's a bunch of Sonics here in the PNW and this is awesome to have.
It's still fairly incomplete since I don't have damage percents for Battlefield or other stages.

More than anything, it would be a huge help if you guys would be willing to add anything that I may have missed.
 

Prepare_Yourself

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If you guys don't mind, I was having a lot of trouble against a yoshi on 3DS for glory (went by Kazz, I don't know if he's on the boards), and it seemed like I just couldn't get defensive enough; eruption edgeguarding and almost every approach could be countered by eggs and his fast, midrange aerials. Any tips on approaches, punishes, edgeguards, etc.?
 

Arrei

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Eruption is useless against Yoshi, don't even try it. His ability to recover high is too formidable as long as he has his air jump and his egg will knock us out of it if he doesn't. If you want to edgeguard him, you'll have to fill the airspace where he might use his jump and simply hope you can guess right with your aerials or catch him with Uair, the former of which might just hit his armor frames and the latter of which is very difficult due to Yoshi's air speed and ability to change direction in the air with eggs and B-reverse Egg Lay.

I'm no expert against Yoshi, but from what I've experienced so far, blocking is key for approaching, but don't simply charge in. You want to get into midrange first, then if he tries another egg, go for a powershield and go in. If he uses a dash attack, he'll likely stop behind you, so don't try to shield grab it unless he uses it early for some reason. A dash grab should be easy to see coming and spotdodge since he can only pull it out in fairly close quarters. If he goes on the offensive with an aerial, be sure to watch for which side of you he's going to land on. If he uses Dair, remember that its high damage also means very high shield damage, so remember to shift your shield around and be sure to let your shield cool down again before you use it. On the other hand, if you know he likes to try Dair you could also simply get out of the way and take advantage of how long Yoshi's going to be stuck there to punish at your leisure. This is also where you can try to read his jump and jump backward into a SH Fair to swipe at him while he's locked into an aerial animation, while also evading a possible dash attack attempt in a manner that'll also put you closer to him for a punish.

Mix this up with jumping through or over his eggs occasionally to keep him guessing, but always be aware you're in a disadvantageous position when you choose to do that. An evaded egg might allow you to get in an aerial for the kill, and since he's nigh un-edgeguardable it's worth keeping the option in mind.
 
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Maik93

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I was able to spare with a Yoshi main some time ago....
He told me that Yoshi doesn't have any throw follow-ups, so SHIELD! But be careful of shield damage of dair and downB...

As arrei said for egdeguarding try to read his doublejump... Though I scored some kills by countering his upB-egg at the ledge as Yoshi doesn't grab the ledge immediatly after throwing the egg.

Be careful when you have a high percentage and are in the air... he can frametrap you with eggs and uair... and a egg can be followed by uair at kill percents!
 

JJpalmer

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what should i be doing agiasnt kirby and sonic i have a match of me being absoulety wrecked by sonic i know nothing of the matchup across my 4 characters and i just got wrecked in friendlies tonight by kirby who i dont really feel comfortable fighting as ike or shiek
 
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what should i be doing agiasnt kirby and sonic i have a match of me being absoulety wrecked by sonic i know nothing of the matchup across my 4 characters and i just got wrecked in friendlies tonight by kirby who i dont really feel comfortable fighting as ike or shiek
Camp him and force him to play the spacing game. Kirby has nothing in his arsenal to challenge Ragnell in neutral and he only wins if he gets you offstage or something.

Sonic has been discussed on these boards, too. but the idea is similar. Force him to play your game and punish him. Ike outranges and usually outlives Sonic. Ryo vs Static Manny is a good example of this MU, from what I've read? Not sure.
 
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JJpalmer

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Camp him and force him to play the spacing game. Kirby has nothing in his arsenal to challenge Ragnell in neutral and he only wins if he gets you offstage or something.

Sonic has been discussed on these boards, too. but the idea is similar. Force him to play your game and punish him. Ike outranges and usually outlives Sonic. Ryo vs Static Manny is a good example of this MU, from what I've read? Not sure.
ok ill post a match tomorrow
 

RadiantHero

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i noticed we have a pretty good/even cloud matchup. when i use ike and play flawlessly/nomistakes the win usually gets in there. ike loses to cloud mostly if the cloud player knows how to use cloud 100% effictively and well-timed limit break usage
 

Arrei

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I'm curious as to where the favor in that matchup lies, myself. Cloud's Uair is phenomenal for juggling, which we're weak against, yet he's not so super mobile that he can exploit it as easily as the likes of Rosa and Sheik. On the other hand, his inability to ledge snap gives us myriad ways to mess with his recovery, be it countering from the ledge, dropping off in his way and countering, using Eruption, run-off Fair, or even spacing Fsmash if you want to get cheeky. And his only saving grace, Limit Climhazzard, is still vulnerable to Eruption.
 
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I'm curious as to where the favor in that matchup lies, myself. Cloud's Uair is phenomenal for juggling, which we're weak against, yet he's not so super mobile that he can exploit it as easily as the likes of Rosa and Sheik. On the other hand, his inability to ledge snap gives us myriad ways to mess with his recovery, be it countering from the ledge, dropping off in his way and countering, using Eruption, run-off Fair, or even spacing Fsmash if you want to get cheeky. And his only saving grace, Limit Climhazzard, is still vulnerable to Eruption.
DTilt as well.
 

HexorMastah

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Anyone have any ideas on how to combat a Mario that is a prominent user of Fludd and Cape? I feel like those two things in the Ike vs Mario MU make it near unwinnable for Ike due to his terrible recovery.
 

Prepare_Yourself

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Anyone have any ideas on how to combat a Mario that is a prominent user of Fludd and Cape? I feel like those two things in the Ike vs Mario MU make it near unwinnable for Ike due to his terrible recovery.
Two words: recover low. That will negate FLUDD. Other than that, just try some mixups involving height and airdodging to prevent being caped if he goes deep.
If you really get launched and have to use quick draw, mix up when you release; you can go to the far end of the stage, grab the ledge, or try to hit him; you can usually bait an early FLUDD or possibly even just power through part of it. But stay on the ground! Don't get launched! Space him out! Then the matchup's not so bad.
 
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What's the best way to deal with Cloud's Up B at lowest point? When he doesn't poke over the edge but manages to snap the ledge. I miss Dair every time.
 

Aquasition

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What's the best way to deal with Cloud's Up B at lowest point? When he doesn't poke over the edge but manages to snap the ledge. I miss Dair every time.
Have you tried walk-off/ledgezone counter? Cloud's reliant on his double jump or a full Limit gauge to get back, and if he needs it the first time he tries to recover, he's probably not making it back after the counter.
 
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Arrei

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Simply doing a ledge release Counter is probably the easiest way to end him early if he goes low, and to my knowledge Ike doesn't fall fast enough to die first if you seriously flub it and get Climcided.

Otherwise I just go for Eruption.
 

san.

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What's the best way to deal with Cloud's Up B at lowest point? When he doesn't poke over the edge but manages to snap the ledge. I miss Dair every time.
Try to dair at the points where they need to time upB to snap below the ledge. If you're missing dair at that point, they must be releasing early, leading to additional punishment options.

If they have no choice but to upB, you can just jump down and counter.

You can also threaten them with aerials well before they reach the ledge. Ike's fair outranges Cloud, especially from below.
 

Caryslan

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I can do well in most matchups, but I am at a loss on how to fight Villager. If I try to play defensively, Villager spams the stage with his projectile game, and if I try to play aggressive I end up being punished by villager's attacks. No matter how I try to approach the match, Villager tends to shut me down.

Any advice on how to deal with Villager?
 
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PyroTakun

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I can do well in most matchups, but I am at a loss on how to fight Villager. If I try to play defensively, Villager spams the stage with his projectile game, and if I try to play aggressive I end up being punished by villager's attacks. No matter how I try to approach the match, Villager tends to shut me down.

Any advice on how to deal with Villager?
Try to stay grounded for the most part otherwise you'll eat a lot of F-Airs and B-Airs. For the rocket, dash attack will go through it and hit Villager at the start of the move's animation. You'll have to end up approaching with that and shield a lot.

Once you're in all you really have to look out for is his N-Air and Jab. If you can keep him just in range of your sword, you'll be fine.

Also, you'll definitely want to mix up your recovery. Villagers love to edgeguard Ike with the bowling ball because of how linear our recovery options are.



Also, I think I'd like to take this time to invite over the :4villager::4villagerf: and :4cloud:boards to get their inputs on the Ike MU.
 
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-m0

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I'm curious as to where the favor in that matchup lies, myself. Cloud's Uair is phenomenal for juggling, which we're weak against, yet he's not so super mobile that he can exploit it as easily as the likes of Rosa and Sheik. On the other hand, his inability to ledge snap gives us myriad ways to mess with his recovery, be it countering from the ledge, dropping off in his way and countering, using Eruption, run-off Fair, or even spacing Fsmash if you want to get cheeky. And his only saving grace, Limit Climhazzard, is still vulnerable to Eruption.
Um, just saying, pretty sure that Cloud's dash and airspeed are at least equal to Rosa's. IMO Cloud's uair is better than Rosa's and Luma's combined.


In this matchup, you Ikes are going to face a problem you almost never normally face: you're going to get out-disjointed. iirc all your aerials have less range than ours, but nearly all of your ground moves will out-disjoint ours.I guess not all of them, just nair and bair, but these are the ones we'll be using. Not sure how many ground moves of Ike's are actually feasible for outranging us, but Cloud will definitely want to wall you out with nairs and bairs, both of which can confirm into at least a grab, and occasionally Cross Slash and dtilt (for nair, ditlt won't work after bair because you'll have to turn around). Cloud's excellent landing frame data, huge aerial hitboxes, and lingering aerial hitboxes is something that I feel is THE key function of this character, not limit. Sure, limit is extremely important, but it's not the thing I think of when I think of Cloud's "gimmick". On the subject of Limit, in this matchup I feel it will be saved for recovery mostly. As Arrei said, it's still vulnerable to Eruption (are you sure? Wouldn't every char be vulnerable if you're exploiting this 1-2 frame vulnerablity?), but with a Limit Climhazzard in our hands, we can do some pretty nifty things. We can straight up just soar over you if you start your Eruption early; we can fly up, then shoot down for the edge, protecting ourselves with our falling hitbox (admittedly this is a bad option vs Eruption due to Eruption's high vertical hitbox); we can choose to not sweetspot and hit with the falling hitbox quickly (this is a pretty bad option overall, even less useful against Ike's huge sword); or we can not sweetspot, hit you or a shield, then release down and sweetspot during hitlag.


Hitlag is the pause that happens after connecting with an attack. Every attack has hitlag, just with different amounts. Yes, attacks other than Knee have hitlag. For an example, just look at Yoshi's dair. Tons of low-hitlag, low damage attacks add up to a significantly larger execution time than a whiffed dair. Hitlag can sometimes be misidentified as ending lag. This a completely different thing. I've some people on these boards make that mistake and I wanted to correct it. Yes, I'm looking at you, Rango the Mercenary Rango the Mercenary


However, there are other ways we can use Limit in this MU. If you ever decide to Aether and I'm anywhere near you onstage, I can Finishing Touch and blow you away with it's windbox for a kill. You'll definitely want to try to avoid Aether as a recovery tool in general here, because unless you space it perfectly similar to the Mario MU, I can fsmash or Blade Beam you out of range of the protecting hitboxes on Aether. Even if you space it perfectly, we may be able to hit you with the hilt of dsmash (has surprising range) for a stage spike. If you Quickdraw and go high over Cloud, you should be fine most of the time, especially if you autocancel it. Even if you eat a punish, the worst it’ll be is a DA/grab, which is better than the LB Blade Beam you’ll take if I’m able to read when you’ll unleash Quickdraw at a low height (i.e going for the ledge/just above the ledge).


On the other hand, Cloud's recovery sucks. It just sucks. If you get him in a position where Cloud is forced to upb and not sweetspot, he should be dead pretty much every time. You guys know the ways Ike can destroy Cloud in this state better than I do. However, there are a couple ways Cloud can mixup his Climhazzard use if he’s forced to use it.


DISCLAIMER: I am not stating that Cloud’s recovery is good/better than Ike’s. I am simply stating the ways Cloud can mixup his recovery to make it slightly safer. I did not state these for Ike because I am unaware of the things Ike can do to mixup his recovery (besides the ways I have previously stated). Compare this to Ness. He has PLENTY of ways to mixup his recovery, but when it comes down to it, when he’s forced to use PK Thunder, his recovery sucks. Cloud doesn’t have nearly as many mixup options as Ness, but he has a few useful ones that can improve his safety offstage.


Cloud can sweetspot early with Climhazzard if you are within range of the ledge (he has a very large horizontal sweetspot range) when he sticks the Buster/Fusion Sword out during startup. This can be used at longer ranges by DJ -> airdodge toward the ledge, then canceling the ending frames of the airdodge with Climhazzard to hopefully sweetspot early and safely.


A wall jump -> Cross Slash when near the ledge will apparently give you 100% safety to Climhazzard and grab ledge, even on shield. (This is according to GHNeko, maybe I’m interpreting this wrong, idk)


We can always sweetspot with the downward strike of Climhazzard if we’re about a DJ’s height above the ledge, relying on the large hitbox of our descending sword for protection. However, this hitbox doesn’t fare very well against Ike’s well timed… um… like everything disjointed, and Counter.


Feel free to tell if any of this is incorrect! Just looking to learn! :D
 
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As Arrei said, it's still vulnerable to Eruption (are you sure? Wouldn't every char be vulnerable if you're exploiting this 1-2 frame vulnerablity?)
Eruption's hitbox goes below the ledge-snapping point, I believe, so you don't need to catch the 2 frame vulnerability.
 

Arrei

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Um, just saying, pretty sure that Cloud's dash and airspeed are at least equal to Rosa's. IMO Cloud's uair is better than Rosa's and Luma's combined.
It is, but I used the wrong term there - He's not as mobile as Sheik but he gets around faster than Rosalina - but Rosie's a danger to us because she exploits her Uair by jumping super high, staying there with her floaty momentum, and having silly kill power on a late Uair. Cloud doesn't have quite so easy a time killing with Uair as she does.
 

Prepare_Yourself

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Feel free to tell if any of this is incorrect! Just looking to learn! :D
I just thought I'd mention, I think Ike has about five different ways to recover, if you factor in how to use jumps, airdodges, height, distance, etc. to your advantage with both QD and aether. It's not totally necessary unless you start playing like a flowchart and start to get punished for taking specific options frequently, but sometimes a mix up can score us a collision with QD, a little extra damage with aether, or even an aether spike. Ledge regrabbing is generally frowned upon, but even that can sometimes make for a useful mix up. Basically, on for glory I can land some damage just about every time I recover (unless I'm desperate) by thinking about what I can try that would catch people off guard. Mind you, I only play on for glory...
 

-m0

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I just thought I'd mention, I think Ike has about five different ways to recover, if you factor in how to use jumps, airdodges, height, distance, etc. to your advantage with both QD and aether. It's not totally necessary unless you start playing like a flowchart and start to get punished for taking specific options frequently, but sometimes a mix up can score us a collision with QD, a little extra damage with aether, or even an aether spike. Ledge regrabbing is generally frowned upon, but even that can sometimes make for a useful mix up. Basically, on for glory I can land some damage just about every time I recover (unless I'm desperate) by thinking about what I can try that would catch people off guard. Mind you, I only play on for glory...
I definitely agree with you here. Every character has tons of different options to recover... it's why you see people on the Mario boards be like ZOMG we win the Cloud and Ike matchup because Aether lol gimp lol... but Ike's/Cloud's are barely ever forced to use Aether at all... and when they do, the Mario/whatever char is not even in a position to punish it/gimp it. Notice how I said "if you're ever forced to use Aether and I'm onstage in a position to punish" and "if you Quickdraw from far away, I can punish with this". You're barely ever forced to be in those situations... but if you are, then I can do this.
 
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So I just went into training mode and compared Ike and Cloud's aerials. Turns out Ike's fair has slightly more reach than Cloud's, nair has almost the same range in front and back (I think Cloud has slightly more reach, but I'm still not very sure), and Cloud's bair has more range (no surprise there; you can tell just by looking).

The way I tested it was I went to FD and had Cloud all the way at the edge and just kept positioning Ike at the spots where he could just barely hit Cloud, then returned Cloud back to his original spot (the edge) and did the same move as Ike to compare the ranges. I'm not exactly sure if that's a good way to test this kind of thing since I don't really lab very often. Maybe others could test it out as well?
 
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Let's talk about Cloud stages for a minute. I'll use my match with Dingo as an example.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ike-video-thread-critiques-welcome.376706/page-13#post-20788386
(Skip to 02:27:00 for the first set in GF)

Battlefield: His juggles forced me FAR off the stage to Side B at a great distance. He preferred this stage over Smashville.
Smashville: While not used in the aforementioned set, there is only one platform. However, it is the platform Cloud can use to charge Limit and pressure approaches.
Lylat Cruise: The platforms not only assist Cloud in combos, but the Blade Beam will lean downwards if the stage is tipped downwards, which not only makes it harder to recover, but a Limit Blade Beam will almost certainly end you. Also, the stage tipping upwards causes Ike to miss the ledge if you make an attempt to recover low.
Final Destination: Clearly Ike's best stage against Cloud, as well as the one he is most likely to ban as a result.

I don't have much experience fighting Cloud on Town & City. I feel it can go 50/50 - Cloud with platform advantage vs. when it goes into FD mode and Ike has the advantage when platforms are gone.

Cloud seems to love Battlefield, but loathe Dream Land. I feel part of this is due to the pineapple gimping his Limit Climhazzard, while the wind may also play a factor in messing up his approaches.

With Duck Hunt added to the Genesis ruleset, and tournaments adapting it, this is the "second" FD, as Sonic players tend to swear by it. Despite the trees, I don't think Cloud can jump high enough to make them as problematic as Rosalina would due to her Uair height. I feel we can use this stage to our advantage as it provides no true advantage for Cloud charging Limit. Even though he has trees, it also comes with a great risk as he has little room to avoid despite baiting an approach. If anything, it will come down to baiting his shield and pressuring it until he's forced to come down and approach you. The other problem, however, is that Cloud has wall-jump here to mixup his recovery. This could go 50/50, but I feel it's leaning towards Cloud's favor.

I feel the matchup is hard due to Cloud having juggle advantages on several stages, and recovery advantage on the recently re-added Duck Hunt. He's going to force our approach and juggle us on platforms, and if you play someone who uses a different recovery every time he comes in, it's just going to make it hard to gimp him while he batters us with juggles.

Not to mention if you enter tournaments that have stages like Halberd and Delfino, you may as well just admit Cloud has the superior matchup on Ike. However, without those stages and with a 1-ban rule, it's hard to decide whether to ban Battlefield, Smashville, or Lylat Cruise.

I came closest to beating him on Lylat Cruise, but feel a number of mistakes and a DI'd USmash saved him with the match coming down to the last hit. Battlefield was his preferred stage, while Smashville seems to be a secondary stage.
 
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-m0

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Cloud likes Battlefield because he can upb OOS and land on the main platform, whereas he can't on Dream Land or Midgar.

Also, I've found Duck Hunt to be a great stage for Cloud. While the higher vertical blastzone decreases our uair and Finishing Touch kills, we can kill easily off the side with fsmash and LB Cross Slash, and the tree gives us a great place to charge Limit safely, especially against chars with low jumps and/or inflexible recovery moves.

EDIT: Also I have a big post on the MU detailing Cloud's ways to KO Ike in the works atm. Somebody want to help me avoid double posting?
 
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MugenSSB

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Been playing a really good metaknight recently and I've found that depending on how they recover once they're offstage almost all of their options are beat with counter. If they recover low with shuttle loop counter on the edge of the stage (assuming they don't snap, which most mk players don't). If they recover with side b run off and counter. The timings a bit tricky but if done right it's an easy edgeguard in a tough mu otherwise.
 

-m0

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So I just went into training mode and compared Ike and Cloud's aerials. Turns out Ike's fair has slightly more reach than Cloud's, nair has almost the same range in front and back (I think Cloud has slightly more reach, but I'm still not very sure), and Cloud's bair has more range (no surprise there; you can tell just by looking).


The way I tested it was I went to FD and had Cloud all the way at the edge and just kept positioning Ike at the spots where he could just barely hit Cloud, then returned Cloud back to his original spot (the edge) and did the same move as Ike to compare the ranges. I'm not exactly sure if that's a good way to test this kind of thing since I don't really lab very often. Maybe others could test it out as well?
Oop. well sorry. Original post edited. Goddamnit, Cloud needs to actually stretch his damn arms like bair so he can make use of his huge sword! What about grounded moves? can we slide under stuff like utilt and ftilt?


_____


I'd say what you Ikes want to do in this matchup is try to get through our wall of Blade Beams, nairs, bairs, and fairs, before we can charge Limit. Cloud's nair has to fastfalled to have any sort of reward besides 8%, so if you shield/powershield it or wait just outside it's range, then you will probably be able to get in. Our nair is not like yours; it has a noticeable (not awful, but definitely noticeable) amount of end lag. Then you can take advantage of Ike's better CQC like jab (what frame is Ike's? iirc Cloud's is frame 4) and your MUCH better grab. Speaking of which, don't really be afraid to shield against a Cloud at high percents, unless he has Limit, because LB Cross Slash does a lot of shield damage and if you try to roll out you will get hit and die if at high percents. Also, all this talk about Cloud's uthrow being a kill throw at high percent? It's a myth. That **** doesn't kill until like 220% fresh with good DI, and it may not even be fresh as it's Cloud's most damaging throw. Cloud does have a few tricks with grab though. Outside of the obvious dthrow->ftilt and etc. (dthrow->Cross Slash is almost always never a true combo; you can jump out or DI down and shield 90% of the time), the main thing you'll want to watch out for is bthrow/fthrow at the edge followed by a Blade Beam/DA. Cloud's forward and back throws are similar to Ike's in their purely horizontal trajectory, giving us a good angle for these followups. If you immediately try to jump out of fthrow/bthrow (especially bthrow), you'll get hit with the Blade Beam and lose your jump and most likely your stock. Cloud has a pretty hard time killing outside of LB Cross Slash and reads with Finishing Touch/fsmash. His notable kill moves are:

Fsmash. You've no doubt heard of this 70% wonder. Let me tell you, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Outside of catching landings with its slightly lingering hitbox or pivot fsmashing, there's not really a reliable way we can hit this and kill with it. It's not even very viable as a drop shield->punish tool, as only the last hit will connect most of the time due to shield pushback, and it doesn't have nearly as much killpower without the extra damage from the preliminary hits. It does do a lot of damage though, so if we catch you with it out of dthrow, it'll bring up your percent pretty fast.


Finishing Touch. OK. This move is niche. Very niche. It fills its niche very well though. You'll only see it as a hard punish if I powershield one of your smashes/tilts, or as a confirm off of uair or sourspot dair, or as a hard airdodge punish, or its windbox blowing away Aether.


Cross Slash. This is what I believe is Cloud's best Limit Break. Intangible from frames 6-11, doing 26% with strong diagonal knockback that can kill at 70 on the edge, about 100 from center stage, and 120-130 from the other side of the stage. It’s an excellent quick punish. In other news , if you don’t happen to jump, fall out, or even attack out of our vanilla Cross Slash at about 180% at the edge, it kills. lol


Climhazzard. Now you may be surprised that the vanilla Climhazzard can kill. The non-meteor hitbox of the descent strike has extremely strong knockback that doesn’t seem to scale with percentage, but it is affected by rage, and can kill on the edge if Cloud has some rage. Obviously we can also suicide with it and we can get similar ledge spikes as Aether. Now Limit Climhazzard. This is a beauty of a move. Comes out on frame 7, kills around 130-140 (probably 150ish on you guys), and all around looks badass. Not much else to say about this move.


Blade Beam. Outside of camping, stealing jumps and hitting Aether (don’t know why you would over fsmash) with vanilla, you probably won’t see this very much. Normally it has too much endlag to really camp with it, but against a projectile-less Ike, we can camp with it fine. LB Blade Beam would probably be used as the Quickdraw interception I mentioned or a protection while drifting back to stage.


Dsmash. I really like this move. You’ll have to watch out for it due to its NASTY semi-spike angle that will almost always force you to use Aether/Quickdraw. Kills around 150 from center stage too.


Usmash. This move can kill at about 160% and isn’t great.


Uair. Yes, our godly Uair. This is a great move you should watch out for. Kills at 130 on the ground, ridiculous autocancel window, combos into utilt at low percent, can be safely ledgehopped, juggles are so real with this move. “The juggles are strong with this one” :p You guys can probably counter to get down, but don’t get predictable or you will rest in peace from a Finishing Touch.


Fair. Fair can kill if it’s fresh on the edge, and watch out for jab combo at the edge->runoff fair spike at low percents.


Bair. Bair barely kills outside of the ledge. Can be spaced very easily with minimal lag though.


Nair. Nair is a great gimping tool with its semispike angle, and it can kill around 180 onstage.


Oh and also ftilt can kill at like 140 on the edge.

To reiterate, you guys want to get through our wall before we can charge Limit too much. This may force Ike to play a more rushdown-oriented style you guys aren’t used to, but don’t rush straight in and get punished lol.

EDIT:
Been playing a really good metaknight recently and I've found that depending on how they recover once they're offstage almost all of their options are beat with counter. If they recover low with shuttle loop counter on the edge of the stage (assuming they don't snap, which most mk players don't). If they recover with side b run off and counter. The timings a bit tricky but if done right it's an easy edgeguard in a tough mu otherwise.
Wat
Pretty sure MK can just stall until you have go back onstage and he can recover for free... And any of the top MKs I've seen use Shuttle Loop to recover an average of 2 times per match, and always snap... and use Drill Rush 0 times lol. Maybe counter onstage since the first hit pokes the ledge? idk
 
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i noticed we have a pretty good/even cloud matchup. when i use ike and play flawlessly/nomistakes the win usually gets in there. ike loses to cloud mostly if the cloud player knows how to use cloud 100% effictively and well-timed limit break usage
I agree with you. After seeing M2k vs. Ryo exhibition released by MVG yesterday, I noticed that while cloud can combo Ike with Uairs and is faster than Ike, Ike makes up by having more solid follow ups off of grabs as well as being able to counter cloud while he is recovering, down-tilt cloud while he is recovering (because cloud can't snap to the ledge unless he gets the distance perfectly) and I'm pretty sure a down-angled ftilt can catch cloud recovering. Also, because Cloud can't snap to the ledge, Ike's dair can catch Cloud's recovery. One problem I saw ally facing when trying to punish M2k for charging limit, was that Ally's characters (except for Marth) don't have as much disjoint, so I believe that because Ike has a good disjoint, you can safely apply shield pressure to cloud when he is charging his limit
 
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