Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Erimir]

so the corocoro thing was a bust. oh well , i guess we are gonna have to wait till feb. after all.

You mean late January.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

You mean late January.

what is brawl getting released earlier now?

 

[LukeFonFabre]

It is if you live in Japan.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

ahhh right, darn lucky japanese folks. But i dont really want to know everything brawl has before i even play it. I wanna find out most of the stuff for myself.

 

[joeysmash]

If Shiek returns, he/she/it/potato will be all by itself.

 

[Chidosengan]

6 weeks till we see how accurate this list is.

 

[AlbelNox]

6 weeks till we see how accurate this list is.

100% UNACCURATE.

No, seriously. I think that's one of the lists that, if not completely accurate, are at least very probable.

EDIT: FAIL. I didn't mean this list xDDD I was talking about another one. Nevermind.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

If Shiek returns, he/she/it/potato will be all by itself.

Sheik is still Zelda. I don't want two Zeldas on my select screen.

 

[matthewmilad]

um....

Um well... your "Conservative" list really isn't too conservative.
Ridley is much more likely as a boss character than playable.
WW Link seems quite unlikely as well, I count on original Young Link staying.
Krystal: Oh wow I hate Krystal. Almost as much as I hate Daisy, maybe even more actually. She's not even a real Star Fox character. I guarantee Falco will stay.
I can't believe you put her in over Falco.
Takamaru? Assist trophy at best.

Try replacing those 4 with Lucario, Falco, Marth, and Hector.

Marth will stay due to him coming to be in his 3rd game (DS).
Lucario will join due to pwn.
Hector same as Lucario.
Falco will stay due to pwn as well.

After that, then feel free to replace Olimar, Isaac, or Geno with Wolf, who is probably more likely. Then you have a true conservative list.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

There's a difference between being conservative and... well, whatever you are. Seriously, original YLink over WWLink? I don't care for WWLink, but he has faaaar higher chances than the original Melee's YLink. Ridley is likely wether you like it or not. Just because you can only picture him as a boss rather than playable doesn't mean anything, it just shows how close minded you are. Falco is most likely staying, but no matter how much you hate Krystal she's more than a shoe-in.

You can keep expecting Hector all you want... he's as likely as Lyn. Olimar in a roster is more than expected, and don't stay up waiting for Wolf.

 

[dynamic_entry]

Um well... your "Conservative" list really isn't too conservative.
Ridley is much more likely as a boss character than playable.
WW Link seems quite unlikely as well, I count on original Young Link staying.
Krystal: Oh wow I hate Krystal. Almost as much as I hate Daisy, maybe even more actually. She's not even a real Star Fox character. I guarantee Falco will stay.
I can't believe you put her in over Falco.
Takamaru? Assist trophy at best.

Try replacing those 4 with Lucario, Falco, Marth, and Hector.

Marth will stay due to him coming to be in his 3rd game (DS).
Lucario will join due to pwn.
Hector same as Lucario.
Falco will stay due to pwn as well.

After that, then feel free to replace Olimar, Isaac, or Geno with Wolf, who is probably more likely. Then you have a true conservative list.

this is less conservative, and more just plain dumb. Hector? Wolf? no Olimar? don't hold your breath buddy.

 

[raul]

Um well... your "Conservative" list really isn't too conservative.
Ridley is much more likely as a boss character than playable.
WW Link seems quite unlikely as well, I count on original Young Link staying.
Krystal: Oh wow I hate Krystal. Almost as much as I hate Daisy, maybe even more actually. She's not even a real Star Fox character. I guarantee Falco will stay.
I can't believe you put her in over Falco.
Takamaru? Assist trophy at best.

Try replacing those 4 with Lucario, Falco, Marth, and Hector.

Marth will stay due to him coming to be in his 3rd game (DS).
Lucario will join due to pwn.
Hector same as Lucario.
Falco will stay due to pwn as well.

After that, then feel free to replace Olimar, Isaac, or Geno with Wolf, who is probably more likely. Then you have a true conservative list.

Krystal isn't a real Star Fox character? Hmm...try telling her support thread that. She is a newer character, not part of the original 4 SF members, but she still a SF character.

 

[MysticKenji]

Ridley is much more likely as a boss character than playable.

I should've stopped reading here.
The only thing you are right about at all is Marth.

 

[2.72]

I should've stopped reading here.
The only thing you are right about at all is Marth.

But he really is right about that. Marth is very popular, he has a new game coming, etc etc. Check the official Marth thread if you really don't think that Marth will be in. Zevox does a good job of cogently presenting some strong arguments, and I think that we've seen that Sakurai is not removing non-clones left and right. I find it very unlikely that he will take Marth out in place of Takamaru.

Other than that, it's pretty good (and a pretty good read). The conservative list contains a few characters that aren't exactly taken for granted (Isaac being the foremost of these), but I'm fine with that. Conservative isn't synonymous with "absolutely guaranteed."

I still think that Lloyd should get on here somewhere. Yeah, he's not likely but he's awesome, so he deserves some recognition.

EDIT: Sorry, MysticKenji, the "you" in "you really don't think that Marth will be in" was directed at people in general.

 

[Ginger9001]

I still think that Lloyd should get on here somewhere. Yeah, he's not likely but he's awesome, so he deserves some recognition.

Dude, Lloyd pwns hard. Real hard. xD

Although, there would be a major overboard of swordsmen in Brawl if all our favorites got in. Link, Young (WW) Link, Roy, Marth, Ike, Isaac, then Lloyd, hell, even Ganondorf might have a sword. So yeh, that would be too crazy. xD

Edit: But maybe, if you really think about it, I mean, how many characters may there be? Perhaps say if we had 50, then a handful of swordsmen wouldn't really standout among the tons of other characters. So who knows?

 

[MysticKenji]

But he really is right about that. Marth is very popular, he has a new game coming, etc etc. Check the official Marth thread if you really don't think that Marth will be in. Zevox does a good job of cogently presenting some strong arguments, and I think that we've seen that Sakurai is not removing non-clones left and right. I find it very unlikely that he will take Marth out in place of Takamaru.

I support Marth >_>

 

[c-schra777]

i actually think 3 good editions to Brawl would be Rayman, Zant from TP, and banjo kazooie.....even tho they havent had a game in like 7 or 8 years, they are kinda retro

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

i actually think 3 good editions to Brawl would be Rayman, Zant from TP, and banjo kazooie.....even tho they havent had a game in like 7 or 8 years, they are kinda retro

You... if you're not joking, you're a joke.

 

[Arteen]

i actually think 3 good editions to Brawl would be Rayman, Zant from TP, and banjo kazooie.....even tho they havent had a game in like 7 or 8 years, they are kinda retro

Rayman, no. Zant, no. BK would be perfect for Brawl, but they no longer have a chance. By the way, BK's last game was Banjo Pilot, relased 2005, and before that, Grunty's Revenge, released 2003, both on the GBA.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well, it looks like most people on Smashboards are down in the dumps thanks to the filthy liars who write Corroco magazine (or whatever the heck its called) but I'm way too thrilled to have lived through exams to let it get to me.

In other news, my improved list has survived it's first trial by fire. Two characters deconfirmed and by some miracle Sakurai has resisted the temptation to blast a hole in my carefully constructed predictions.

I always rather liked Waluigi as he falls in that category of “so stupid it’s awesome” but I never doubted that he was destined for Assist-trophydom.

I never really saw the appeal of Stafy, but it’s nice to see another niche franchise get its moment in the sun. Call me crazy, but I think Stafy’s trophification bodes well for Takamaru. If Stafy had somehow made it, he would have filed the role of defacto Japanese-only retro character.

You need to fix your description of Isaac. His name is spelled 'Isaac,' not 'Issac.' Also, Nintendo owns the rights to the character (and music), not Camelot.

Fixed and fixed.

Ok, thats just your own opinion. Not fact. I think you over-exaggerate Olimar's "uniqueness". He can summon things. Big woop. So can Dedede. You know what? Heres my new theory:
Olimar can't be in Brawl because Dedede is taking his spot as the minion summoner.
Thats what you sound like to us when you say Takamaru will replace Marth. >_>

Waddledees are basically just turnips that walk around after you throw them. However, if they design Olimar properly he has the potential to be so much more. Specifically, if they give artificial intelligence to the Pikmin and allow Olimar to give orders to him minions.

And yeah, that’s my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Take it more what you will.

Ridley, perhaps. Olimar over Micaiah, but definitely not Marth. Personally, if I were to make a roster this size, I'd remove Isaac and Takamaru for Marth and Falco or Wolf - perhaps keep one of the two and leave out Falco or Wolf, but thats debatable. (Honestly, I don't truly expect Isaac to be in unless the roster size exceeds 40 even though I'm a big fan of his, so I certainly wouldn't put him as a must-have character on a roster that bare-bones, and I'm pretty shocked you did even though you know little about him by your own admission.)

Naturally, I’m biased, but I would put Olimar and Ridley on a near equal footing in terms of importance. Olimar represents a new and stellar franchise and is bar none in terms of uniqueness.

As for putting Isaac, it’s not so much the character that I see as essential as the presence of another Nintendo character franchise. I suppose I’m leaning towards the stance of characters from unrepresented franchises having slightly more priority than characters from franchises that are already represented. One of Smash’s greatest strengths is appealing to as wide a range of gamers as possible, so why not throw the Golden Sun fans a bone?

The other thing here is, you keep bringing up Micaiah, but she isn't even close to comparable to Marth. Radiant Dawn hasn't even broken 150k in sales in Japan yet, making it the worst-selling Fire Emblem to date over there, and Micaiah is quite far from the most popular character in it (Chronobound found a poll on a Japanese site a while back about that, which had Mia as #1, Ike as #2, and Micaiah all the way down at #11 [if memory serves - she may have been a bit lower, but I'm all but sure she was in double digits]). Shes also not exactly resoundingly loved internationally either, and in any event with how recently the game came out, international opinion isn't going to get her into the game. Her only hope for being in from what I can see is if she was pre-decided to be a Radiant Dawn add, and Sakurai & co don't choose to remove her now that the delay has made that a near-futile gesture.

Marth totally trumps Miciaiah in terms of series importance and popularity, no question. Heck, I’ll even concede that he is on equal footing when it comes to “advertisement” status (assuming that Fire Emblem DS was far enough along in development when the Brawl roster was finalized).

But in terms of being a more unique addition to the roster, I would argue that Miciaiah has Marth beat. Is that good enough? Likely not. Marth is the obvious choice. The hier apparent, if you will. I’ll admit that.

But, as we all know, things don’t always go as expected. If Sakurai decides that the game would be better served by giving the number two Fire Emblem slot to a little known magic user, I bet he would do it.

What more evidence could there be? Save for his throws, we know Ike's entire move set. Short of Sakurai coming out and telling us how each characters' moves were designed, we're not getting anything else. Given that, a theory with no evidence to back it up at this point is a theory with no legs to stand on.

Yeah, I suppose you are correct there. Only an admission from Sakurai would prove the theory. However, if Marth turns out to be MIA, then then it's an explanation that fits.

And as we all know, even a theory without legs can still bite your legs off!

Think about that for a moment: there was a poll on an English-speaking internet forum asking whether members would prefer a character from a game that has been released internationally or a character from a game that has not who was featured in an unrelated game that was. Of course Ike is going to win in that scenario - casual international FE players with no knowledge of Marth outside of his Melee appearance vastly outnumber "hardcore" players who have ported his game or educated ones who have researched it enough to know his role in the series as a whole. Give the same poll once FE:DS has been around as long as PoR has and you'll quite possibly get the reverse result, and I guarantee you you'd get the reverse result if the poll were given on a Japanese forum.

That's a theory I would like to test. Consider that casual gamers outnumber hardcore in Japan as well. Virtual Console aside, its been a while since Marth appeared in a game while Ike has appeared in two games recently. I'd be very interested in the result of a Ike vs. Marth poll on a Japanese Smash Bros site.

What it comes down to is that Sakurai & co are very much so aware of Marth's popularity in Japan and role in the series (because, like everyone in Japan, they've witnessed both firsthand), and given that its unthinkable they'd turn him down, especially after he was already in Melee after being its #11 most-requested newcomer. Seriously, how you could ignore this and yet argue Takamaru should be allowed in is beyond me, since hes in a similar position, except that unlike Marth he isn't a member of a major ongoing series and hasn't ever been in anything released internationally.

Consider Melee: the Ice Climbers (a character from an ancient NES game no one actually likes) got in while Diddy Kong (an infinitely more popular and prominent character from a franchise that was already represented in the form of Donkey Kong) was left hung out to dry. I can only speculate why this is the case, but my guess would be that Sakurai deemed filling his quota of obscure, crazy WTF characters to be more important than including a character who had the proper credentials.

The problem is that Micaiah (stop mispelling her name) shouldn't get in over Marth. Marth is much more important to the FE series and if they got a second rep, Marth would get in regardless of what Takamaru's status is. Heck, he could even be a Marth clone for all I care, but there's no way that he would be included over Marth.

Did you not read the part about FE having 11 games in total, 5 of which are international. Marth is possibly the most popular FE character world wide, if not just in Japan. He's also the most reoccuring FE lord. Why should Micaiah get in over him?

As I said to Zeox, there is only one advantage that Miciaiah (I'm pretty sure that's how its spelled...) has over Marth: as a magic user, its possible that she would be a more unique addition to the roster.

If that sounds far fetched, that's because it is. It would be downright shocking if Sakurai went the route I am proposing. But, to me, the only final roster that is totally unbelievable to the one without surprises.

Unfounded is an understatement. It's been proven wrong! Ike only has 2 moves in common with Marth, both of which are generic swordsmen moves (a counter for down B and a sword swipe for a fair, and a slow one at that.). We know Ike's entire moveset by now, and it would be more likely that Ike's moveset was based off of Link's rather than Marth's. If a characters moves were to be based off another character's, then they'd share the same animations on the majority of there moves and just have different stats. This is not the case with Marth and Ike.

Let me be clear: my theory is that they took Marth's existing moveset and transformed it into something almost entirely different. While there certainly isn't a shred of evidence to back this up, I wouldn't call it impossible.

First, what would American Fans get? A character from a 20 year old dead series that nobody knows. It's not like FE because FE is a continuing series that had 6 games in it and was going international.

From the American Smasher's perspective, Takamaru in Brawl would be identical to Marth and Roy in Melee: a cool swordfighter no one has ever heard of. Obviously, from a Japanese perspective, Fire Emblem is a bigger frnachise than whatever Tak is from, but my point remains.

Second, Micaiah's game isn't selling so well and she has few fans even in her own game. Marth on the other hand has two very well recieved FE games and is more popular world wide. Sure, there would be some fans that would prefer Micaiah, but the majority of fans wouldn't even consider her if it meant getting rid of Marth.

No what might increase sales of her game? Putting her in Brawl!

Diversity over character importance? And then you put an unimportant character from the same series?

...who is also unique. Yes.

Those are your words, not mine.

I completely agree

I freely admit that Marth is superior reprentative of the Fire Emblem series. Fire Emblem DS removed all doubt. But being the best series representative is different the best choice as a playable character
in Brawl (though you could certainly argue that Marth is both.)

It would be more awesome if his series was actually continuing. His series is dead and I don't think we'll be getting any new games, even if he were included in Brawl.

That's likely true, but worst case scenario we have a Saumerai playable in Smash and the old school Famicom gamers in Japan get their moment in the sun.

Told you we needed Marth.

...or Takamaru.

Who is a dead character from a dead series.

Unlike Ice Climbers?

Say, I've been hearing a "faint" rumor about Namco's Klonoa being in Brawl. Think you can check that out?

I found a link to it:
CLICK HERE

Go to the part that says Clos about Noah.

I would take that with a grain of salt, but if true, it's interesting.

hey wise i like the new list, my only problem with it is takimura. I don't think that he has the same popularity as other japan only characters such as claus, and various fe characters that i have no idea about. Plus isn't he a retro character to? Thats a bit to obscure for me, and old japan only character.

I can relate, as I can't say I'm thrilled at the prospect of any Japanese-only characters getting in over internationally popular ones. But these are my predictions of what I think WILL happen, not so much what I personally want.

Glad you like the new list. Thanks for the kind words.

OLIMAR FTW! he really deserves it, imo. I will be shocked if olimar wont make it, i bet alot of olimar haters will ALSO be shocked if he doesn't make it, i mean he has TWO of the best games on Game Cube and hopefull a 3 coming to the wii! but that part is ot, so back on topic, great list, and people stop making puppies die and accept the fact olimar rocks XD

Indeed! A future without Olimar in Brawl is a bleak and dismall future that I would rather not see. If he isn't in, I will tear up my Brawl preorder!

...and then hate myself as I wind up buying it anyway.

wow dude you are so one sided and really hateful of opposers, especially when it comes to Sheik and Windwaker

Hey, no hate here. And if I sound one sided, its because I can get passionate about certain things.

i think 2b looks pretty accurate, although i think lucario has a pretty god shot too. Im a long time geno fan, so im praying for him. Despite having never heard of claus i think hed be awesome, so hes in my prayers too.

2 B would be my choice of the three as well.

Great lists with intelligent reasoning.Something you don't see too much of anymore on the boards..

Thanks for the compliment! Though, I've seen other intelligent lists out there.

What the hell no K. Rool? HELL NO TO WW LINK. Besides that pretty good final predictions.

I fail to understand WW Link sentiment. Is starring in two of the greatest, most recent Zelda games not good enough?

WAIT A MINUTE..... I think I see what's wrong here...
WHERE'S WOLF O'DONNELL???? BRING HIM BACK!!!!!!
Wolf EATS Krystal 4 Breakfast.

Maybe. But in terms of who makes the better Brawl character, its no contest. A staff wielder would be a great addition.

Have you ever played a DK game? K.Rool has incredible moveset potential. Check the K.Rool thread if you don't believe me. Also since K.Rool is the main villain his importance would get him in long before his uniqueness would come to play.

I played some DKC back in the day, and I suffered through much of DK64 before giving up.

I have seen some K.Rool movesets, but I've yet to see one that would make him a must-include character. Quite unlike Ferro's vision of Midna.

You take it one way I take it another.

So, what you're saying is that it isn't proof of Sakurai not using popularity as a factor for deciding the playable roster?

The only reason people dislike BS is the same reason people dislike Tingle and K.Rool. It's easy to make fun of him. Whatever you say about him he is an important villain and is very likely to be included.

Tingle, while undeniably lame, can be pretty funny. K. Rool brings back memories of his cool boss battles in DKC. For whatever reason, they both have their fans.

Spend enough time on Smashboards, and you'll discover every character has their fans. But in all my time on Smashboards, I've yet to meet a single, solitary person who likes Black Shadow. Not a one. Zippo. He either inspires indifference or hatred. BS is different from Tingle or K. Rool: he is COMPLETELY unlikeable.

I don't like:
Midna's positioning - Seriously? Why did she get tacked on like a post-it note? She should be in all three versions, not just the best case one.
B.J. - See Midna.

Outside of those two things, I like your revisions...

Hey, if I were deciding the roster you can bet Midna would be one of te characters guaranteed to make the cut. But this is what I think the roster WILL be, not a wishlist. Having said that, Midna has a decent shot in a 40 character roster, I would argue. Let's hope at least that many are included...

I like this final roster of yours Wiseguy. I could pick out a few things I disagree with, but then I'd be nitpicky and the game will be out soon anyways

Anyways, we shall see how right you are come next month...

Also, when Sheik is confirmed to be not in the game, I will give you his/her/its/potato's head on a silver platter in the form of a crudely made photoshop as a gift

Al Calnos, you are my hero.

Agreed. Wise, you compared Takamaru's situation to Marth's, which are ultimately two very different scenarios.

Takamaru: Starred in his own game on the NES, during the 80's. He has not appeared in another game since. His series has not been the subject of any public talks regarding a revival, remake, or re-release.

Marth: Starred in two games, one on the NES and the other on the SNES, during the 90's. He appeared in Melee, drawing Western attention to the Fire Emblem series. Also, he's starring in a remake of his Fire Emblem games, titled Fire Emblem DS.

You can't really paint the same picture here. Marth just has a lot, lot more going for him. I understand that Takamaru would be a complete WTF character, along the lines of Game & Watch in Melee, but at least most gamers knew who Game & Watch was at the time.

When Game & Watch was discovered in Melee, everyone was thinking 'WTF?' Meaning, 'What the f***' is Game & Watch doing in Melee?

If Takamaru was discovered in Melee, everyone would be thinking 'WTF?' Meaning, 'Who the f***' is that?

It's all relative really. For instance, when my brothers and I first got SSB64 and a Nintendo 64 as a birthday present, it was my first console and I only knew about the few video games I had played at friends houses. I knew Mario, Luigi and Donkey Kong obviously, but had no clue who Ness, Captain Falcon, Fox, Samus or even Link (yes, crazy I know) were initially. (Of course, my love of that game evolved into total videogame nerddom, to the point where I spend hours on the internet arguing about Takamaru... )

Noo my beloved Midna T_T

Under WW Link you Still Wrote "Both Probable" even though Midnas gone :<
The Isaac-Moveset-Link doesnt work by the way >.<

Fixed and Fixed. Thanks.

I still don't like alot of things about your predictions. No Falco = Phailure. I can understand not having Wolf..but Falco should come back. I can live with out King K. Rool, even though I'd like to have more villains. Takamura or w/e his name is is meh. I have no idea who he is..but if he is that likely to be in the game I'll give him a try. Anything is better than that Sukopon thing. No offense to his fans. I can see you are a Metroid Prime fan, and yet you have no Dark Samus? Ridley is cool. What about Rayman? Raving Rabbids did pretty well, so well they made a sequel.

I don't see why you hate the Pokémon series so much. It never did anything to you. Even with the two alternative lists you fail to add any more than 4 characters. As one of Nintendo's best selling series, I do think it deserves at least 5. Adding Lucario/Blaziken/other Pokémon, would give your list alot more appeal for me. I still say PT is one character and should only count for one slot, no matter how many movesets he has.

You can't please everyone. Nice list otherwise.
Thank you for taking out Dr.K from Brain age. Horrible Idea, IMO.

I like the Heroes Reference.

Wild RIDLEY Appeared!
Go! Squirtle!
Squirtle used ICE BEAM!
IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!
Wild RIDLEY Fainted!

I dunno, I actually like the idea of Sukupon. Dark Samus would be a great addition, but won't happen unless Sakurai remmebers that the Metroid Prime games exist. I'm not crazy about Rayman, though a Rabbit would be a cool (and highly, HIGHLY unlikely) addition. I did count PT as one spot on the roster, but I really think that PT's three movesets pretty much rule out any more Pokemon considering the time that must have gone into the character.

Wise, your list rocks for a couple reasons.
A.) Most of the sub captions for the pictures.
B.) Sheiks Picture
C.) krystal

Reaons your list phails.... .... .... (Close your eyes)

He'll get you for not putting him in, just look into those eyes of pure evil.

Thoughts on the new list:

1. I don't think Zelda has been confirmed to have a transformation move, so while I agree that Sheik is likely, it's not as if she's confirmed to be in. And I'm hoping that Sheik, if in, will be the result of a Final Smash, or something. The Pokemon Trainer/Zero-Suit Samus way of implementing multiple-characters-in-one seems a lot better.

2. Falco and Marth seem, to me, to have better chances than some of the characters in your second part.

3. Which brings me to Pac-Man and Bomberman. They are iconic, but as you said, their moves don't add much. I hope they're not in over other characters. Maybe if we have 45+ characters.

4. Bowser Jr and Claus don't seem as likely to me. For some reason Bowser Jr is really popular, but I think that the aforementioned Falco and Marth are more likely, as well as K Rool, since they have longer histories and Bowser Jr is adding to a series that has tons of representation (in the main, plus spin offs of Yoshi and Wario). Claus, well, he has the "cool" factor, but I find it more doubtful that Mother would get a second rep (a second Japan-only rep, at that) than for the other characters I've mentioned to be included.

5.Why not at least mention the possibility of the mixing of the two options in your second part? After all, Simon certainly has a unique moveset as well, considering he could be a character who uses a whip for standard attacks.

1)Nothing is confirmed until its on the Dojo, but I do expect Shiek to return.

2)You are not alone in that, I assure you.

3)It's possible that iconic status might win out over uniqueness. Hopefully not, though.

4)Seems reasonable. Those are definite possibilities.

5)That is a good point. A happy medium between list 2A and 2B would be interesting. But I really think that if they include many more 3rd parties, they will include the four I mentioned to make Brawl the ultimate gathering of gaming icons.

Thanks for taking the time to post your analysis!

Bumps thread in the name of justice.

And reminds Wiseguy to read our replies to his post.

As if I would forget....

Um well... your "Conservative" list really isn't too conservative.
Ridley is much more likely as a boss character than playable.
WW Link seems quite unlikely as well, I count on original Young Link staying.
Krystal: Oh wow I hate Krystal. Almost as much as I hate Daisy, maybe even more actually. She's not even a real Star Fox character. I guarantee Falco will stay.
I can't believe you put her in over Falco.
Takamaru? Assist trophy at best.

Try replacing those 4 with Lucario, Falco, Marth, and Hector.

Marth will stay due to him coming to be in his 3rd game (DS).
Lucario will join due to pwn.
Hector same as Lucario.
Falco will stay due to pwn as well.

After that, then feel free to replace Olimar, Isaac, or Geno with Wolf, who is probably more likely. Then you have a true conservative list.

I was going to respond, until I saw your sig:

Waluigi 4 Brawl!!!!

Number 1!!!!

Nothing more needs to be said.

i actually think 3 good editions to Brawl would be Rayman, Zant from TP, and banjo kazooie.....even tho they havent had a game in like 7 or 8 years, they are kinda retro

Rayman: I don't see it, sorry.

Zant: AWESOME but unlikely

B&J: Sadly, Microsoft owned.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

To sum of my thoughts on this list, I hated it before but I now see you improved it a lot and it's very realistic compared to many others, so props to you.

 

[Elysium]

Krystal isn't a real Star Fox character? Hmm...try telling her support thread that. She is a newer character, not part of the original 4 SF members, but she still a SF character.

Represent Krystal Pride! And yes, she is a "real" SF character. Thats like saying that Midna isn't a real LoZ character.

You... if you're not joking, you're a joke.

quoted for awesomeness.

Also, Wiseguy is king of the walls of pain!

 

[Black/Light]

Humm. . . all I have to say is i don't think Geno is making it, I think Sheik is as good as gone and add Falco with focus on Assult weapons as his move-set. (and 3+ jumps with glide abitilty cause he is a bird)

 

[OysterMeister]

I always rather liked Waluigi as he falls in that category of “so stupid it’s awesome” but I never doubted that he was destined for Assist-trophydom.

I have to admit that upon seeing that Waluigi could stomp people into the ground, I felt a tiny pang of regret that he wouldn't be playable. But then it passed, like all forms of indigestion.

Waddledees are basically just turnips that walk around after you throw them. However, if they design Olimar properly he has the potential to be so much more. Specifically, if they give artificial intelligence to the Pikmin and allow Olimar to give orders to him minions.

Actually, I'd prefer it if the Pikmin didn't have artificial intelligence and were more stuck to Olimar like Navi on Link until need arose. It seems to me that managing a swarm of little plants will be hard enough without having to worry about one or more of them getting stuck on some level geometry.
Bottom line: there're so many awesome ways to do Olimar and his Pikmin, I can't wait to see what Sakurai does.

Naturally, I’m biased, but I would put Olimar and Ridley on a near equal footing in terms of importance. Olimar represents a new and stellar franchise and is bar none in terms of uniqueness.

Anyone who disagrees has no soul.

As for putting Isaac, it’s not so much the character that I see as essential as the presence of another Nintendo character franchise. I suppose I’m leaning towards the stance of characters from unrepresented franchises having slightly more priority than characters from franchises that are already represented. One of Smash’s greatest strengths is appealing to as wide a range of gamers as possible, so why not throw the Golden Sun fans a bone?

Also, Isaac just might be enough to get the ball rolling on the Golden Sun franchise again. Really, there's plenty of franchises Brawl can hopefully revitalize. Series such as Kid Icarus.
It worked for Fire Emblem and Metroid. Hopefully the smash bros magic will work again.

Let me be clear: my theory is that they took Marth's existing moveset and transformed it into something almost entirely different. While there certainly isn't a shred of evidence to back this up, I wouldn't call it impossible.

If even if you crazy theory is true, what does it prove? That the Brawl team can't properly remake a moveset?
To me, the crazy part of this theory isn't that the Brawl team would try something like this, it's the idea that they wouldn't do anything once it became apparent that the character they created could not possibly replace Marth.

It's all relative really. For instance, when my brothers and I first got SSB64 and a Nintendo 64 as a birthday present, it was my first console and I only knew about the few video games I had played at friends houses. I knew Mario, Luigi and Donkey Kong obviously, but had no clue who Ness, Captain Falcon, Fox, Samus or even Link (yes, crazy I know) were initially. (Of course, my love of that game evolved into total videogame nerddom, to the point where I spend hours on the internet arguing about Takamaru... )

This happened to me too. I'm one of the few people who got surprised by the Samus-is-a-lady thing two gaming generations after the original Metroid. Well, after I got surprised by the Samus-exists-at-all thing.

 

[Erimir]

Actually, I'd prefer it if the Pikmin didn't have artificial intelligence and were more stuck to Olimar like Navi on Link until need arose. It seems to me that managing a swarm of little plants will be hard enough without having to worry about one or more of them getting stuck on some level geometry.
Bottom line: there're so many awesome ways to do Olimar and his Pikmin, I can't wait to see what Sakurai does.

To Wiseguy: Given that the Ice Climbers have trouble with the AI and there's only one AI character, having the Pikmin have AI would probably be too difficult. It would be pretty hard to have a bunch of them running around the screen. Also, there is the issue of not wanting there to ever be the impression that a player is not the one fighting themselves.

If you can sit there and let the AI do your fighting (even if it's relatively bad at it), I think that it's a bad character design.

Anyway, what Oyster said put me in mind of an idea for how they could work. Olimar could have his moves work a certain way when he's alone... But the B-move could be to pull a Pikmin out of the ground. Perhaps with a maximum of around 5 or 6. They all follow him around rather than moving freely. His regular attacks become more powerful when he has a Pikmin (I think it would be too broken or too horrible if it was based on how many Pikmin, however, since then he'd either be too weak without them, or with all of them he'd be broken). His other specials would be, however, enhanced by how many Pikmin he had out, giving them more reach (I'm thinking a tether recovery, for example) or more power.

And then either he loses Pikmin based on getting hit, he loses them over time, or he loses them based on how many times he uses one of his other special moves.

On the other hand, to avoid Ice Climbers-like issues, they could just be attached to him all the time (i.e. they're always there, they can't be killed independently, they can't be added etc.)

 

[Wiseguy]

To sum of my thoughts on this list, I hated it before but I now see you improved it a lot and it's very realistic compared to many others, so props to you.

Thabks Groundwalker.

Also, Wiseguy is king of the walls of pain!

As if there were ever any doubt...

Humm. . . all I have to say is i don't think Geno is making it, I think Sheik is as good as gone and add Falco with focus on Assult weapons as his move-set. (and 3+ jumps with glide abitilty cause he is a bird)

Those are all certainly possibilities, so I wouldn't be surprised if they came true. I really, truly hope you are right about Sheik.

I have to admit that upon seeing that Waluigi could stomp people into the ground, I felt a tiny pang of regret that he wouldn't be playable. But then it passed, like all forms of indigestion.

Actually, I'd prefer it if the Pikmin didn't have artificial intelligence and were more stuck to Olimar like Navi on Link until need arose. It seems to me that managing a swarm of little plants will be hard enough without having to worry about one or more of them getting stuck on some level geometry.
Bottom line: there're so many awesome ways to do Olimar and his Pikmin, I can't wait to see what Sakurai does.

I dunno, trying to manage an army of soliders with the attention span of a pre-schooler and the problem solving skills of a tree stump is one of the things that makes Pikmin so awesome, by my account.

But I totally agree: there are a ton of awesome way's Olimar's moveset could pan out and I can't wait to see what happens.

Anyone who disagrees has no soul.

Fact.

If even if you crazy theory is true, what does it prove? That the Brawl team can't properly remake a moveset?
To me, the crazy part of this theory isn't that the Brawl team would try something like this, it's the idea that they wouldn't do anything once it became apparent that the character they created could not possibly replace Marth.

Define "properly." Consider that, unlike Marth, Ike likely won't be a broekn character who skews up the game's balance.

And if Sakurai knew that he wanted to include another speedy swordfighter (like, for instance, Takamaru) he might feel that he has the freedom to completely do something knew with the moveset.

This happened to me too. I'm one of the few people who got surprised by the Samus-is-a-lady thing two gaming generations after the original Metroid. Well, after I got surprised by the Samus-exists-at-all thing.

Wow, so I'm not the only one. I guess its possible we have Smash to thank for the survival of the Metroid series in the long drought between SNES and GC. Interesting.

To Wiseguy: Given that the Ice Climbers have trouble with the AI and there's only one AI character, having the Pikmin have AI would probably be too difficult. It would be pretty hard to have a bunch of them running around the screen. Also, there is the issue of not wanting there to ever be the impression that a player is not the one fighting themselves.

If you can sit there and let the AI do your fighting (even if it's relatively bad at it), I think that it's a bad character design.

Anyway, what Oyster said put me in mind of an idea for how they could work. Olimar could have his moves work a certain way when he's alone... But the B-move could be to pull a Pikmin out of the ground. Perhaps with a maximum of around 5 or 6. They all follow him around rather than moving freely. His regular attacks become more powerful when he has a Pikmin (I think it would be too broken or too horrible if it was based on how many Pikmin, however, since then he'd either be too weak without them, or with all of them he'd be broken). His other specials would be, however, enhanced by how many Pikmin he had out, giving them more reach (I'm thinking a tether recovery, for example) or more power.

And then either he loses Pikmin based on getting hit, he loses them over time, or he loses them based on how many times he uses one of his other special moves.

On the other hand, to avoid Ice Climbers-like issues, they could just be attached to him all the time (i.e. they're always there, they can't be killed independently, they can't be added etc.)

Giving Pikmin AI would make things tricky (for both the game programers and the players) and your moveset concpet seems like it would be a good fit. But I'm still hoping that they can somehow pull off a moveset where he he can pluck around 20-30 Pikmin at a time and that they will have all the abilities and intelligence that they do in the actual game. Yeah, I know that's pretty crazy on both a practical and a character balalance level, but I can still dream!

 

[raphtmarqui]

Consider Melee: the Ice Climbers (a character from an ancient NES game no one actually likes) got in while Diddy Kong (an infinitely more popular and prominent character from a franchise that was already represented in the form of Donkey Kong) was left hung out to dry. I can only speculate why this is the case, but my guess would be that Sakurai deemed filling his quota of obscure, crazy WTF characters to be more important than including a character who had the proper credentials.

Fine, lets say in the off chance that the dev team feels that Micaiah's uniqueness is better for the roster than Marth's importance

Spoiler

(Even though she probably is more unique than Marth I really question by how much. What again makes Micaiah so much more different than Zelda/Lucas?)

. And that they couldn't resist having such a cool WTF character like Takamaru in the game. The problem I still have is why exactly does Marth need to be cut from the roster. You have to remember that Marth is a non-cloned Veteran and when you evaluate Marth's chances in Brawl you can't just only think does he deserve to be in roster, but also does he have any substantial reason to be removed. Why can't they just give Marth a quick updated 3D model, copy and paste his old Melee moveset (which is still essentially unused), and call it a day?

 

[Wiseguy]

Fine, lets say in the off chance that the dev team feels that Micaiah's uniqueness is better for the roster than Marth's importance

Spoiler

(Even though she probably is more unique than Marth I really question by how much. What again makes Micaiah so much more different than Zelda/Lucas?)

. And that they couldn't resist having such a cool WTF character like Takamaru in the game. The problem I still have is why exactly does Marth need to be cut from the roster. You have to remember that Marth is a non-cloned Veteran and when you evaluate Marth's chances in Brawl you can't just only think does he deserve to be in roster, but also does he have any substantial reason to be removed. Why can't they just give Marth a quick updated 3D model, copy and paste his old Melee moveset (which is still essentially unused), and call it a day?

Well, Ness being a non-clone veteran clone didn't seem to help his chances any. I suspect that while bringing back a returning character is simplier than creating from scratch, it's not as simple as a cut-and-paste decision. But if its that easy, I would obviously expect to see Marth return (and see a much higher number of characters than 35).

As for Miciaiah, the fact that they are so few magic users in Brawl compared to swordfighters suggests to me that they is a lot more they could do with it. That's why I think she has a greater potential for uniqueness than Marth.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Well, Ness being a non-clone veteran clone didn't seem to help his chances any.

Well the difference there though is that Ness was supposed to be replaced by Lucas ever since Melee (some even say Smash 64, but thats unconfirmed) and it just never happened because Mother 3 kept getting delayed. Also Lucas replacing Ness is nowhere near as drastic as replacing Marth with Takamaru. Lucas and Ness are basically the same character with different cloths on. To me anyways. Just look at the difference in looks between Ninten and Ness.

As for Miciaiah, the fact that they are so few magic users in Brawl compared to swordfighters suggests to me that they is a lot more they could do with it.

Possibly, but with Lucas,Zelda and potentially Ness,Isaac,Mewtwo,Midna the ratio doesn't seem to be that different anymore.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well the difference there though is that Ness was supposed to be replaced by Lucas ever since Melee (some even say Smash 64, but thats unconfirmed) and it just never happened because Mother 3 kept getting delayed. Also Lucas replacing Ness is nowhere near as drastic as replacing Marth with Takamaru. Lucas and Ness are basically the same character with different cloths on. To me anyways. Just look at the difference in looks between Ninten and Ness.

Different circumstances, sure. But I would if Ness is in danger (who has been with Smash since the beggining) Marth is far from guaranteed at this point.

Possibly, but with Lucas,Zelda and potentially Ness,Isaac,Mewtwo,Midna the ratio doesn't seem to be that different anymore.

I would say Ness is unlikely at this point, but 4 magic (Issac, Midna, Zelda and Miciaiah) and 2 magic-ish (Mewtwo and Lucas) would be just about right as it would put magic users on roughly equal footing with sword weilders.

 

[raul]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black/Light
Humm. . . all I have to say is i don't think Geno is making it, I think Sheik is as good as gone and add Falco with focus on Assult weapons as his move-set. (and 3+ jumps with glide abitilty cause he is a bird)

This is interesting to me. I said the same thing in the OLD StarWolf Thread about Falco and his ability to glide could make him unique from both Fox and Wolf and it got shot down quickly. I am glad to see someone else releasing that Falco has the potential to glide.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Different circumstances, sure. But I would if Ness is in danger (who has been with Smash since the beggining) Marth is far from guaranteed at this point.



I would say Ness is unlikely at this point, but 4 magic (Issac, Midna, Zelda and Miciaiah) and 2 magic-ish (Mewtwo and Lucas) would be just about right as it would put magic users on roughly equal footing with sword weilders.

Theres more too like Geno and Bowser Jr. (magic paintbrush) Krystal (magic staff)
Yeah I know I'm reaching now but I just don't want my Marth to be removed =(
Just look at that face ^_^

aww, he wants to come back so bad.
Wiseguy, your a monster.

 

[Numa Dude]

I played some DKC back in the day, and I suffered through much of DK64 before giving up.

I should punch you in the groin. DK64 was a great game. You just sucked at it so you gave up like a baby.

I have seen some K.Rool movesets, but I've yet to see one that would make him a must-include character. Quite unlike Ferro's vision of Midna.

The only reason Ferro's moveset was so good was because it was so ungodly long and detailed. The K.Rool movesets don't go into such ridiculous detail and because of that look inferior. The fact is K.Rool has many moves from his games that can be translated into original attacks in brawl. If you want I can show you my moveset (which only does B attacks because A attacks are generic physical moves anyway).

So, what you're saying is that it isn't proof of Sakurai not using popularity as a factor for deciding the playable roster?

What I'm saying is that people have different perceptions of what other people say. I take Sakurai's comments as if he doesn't care about popularity at all. You take it as if he doesn't hold it as his highest concern.

Tingle, while undeniably lame, can be pretty funny. K. Rool brings back memories of his cool boss battles in DKC. For whatever reason, they both have their fans.

Those fans are fans because they can see past a characters looks. The people who hate Tingle do so because he looks "gay". The people who hate K.Rool do so because he looks like "a bowser rip-off". The same can be said for BS. People only hate him because he was killed by Deathborne. In the end though it's not the idiotic 12 year old's who are making this game. It's a grown Japanese man.

Spend enough time on Smashboards, and you'll discover every character has their fans. But in all my time on Smashboards, I've yet to meet a single, solitary person who likes Black Shadow. Not a one. Zippo. He either inspires indifference or hatred. BS is different from Tingle or K. Rool: he is COMPLETELY unlikeable.

You obviously are to biased on this point to ever give up. BS has his fans. Just because they have a different opinion than you does not mean they don't exist.

 

[Wrath`]

I haven't been here in a whiel, but i see the final list is good, still I think geno will not be playible, and falco will. and of corse i have my doubts about omilar.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

i agree numa, dk64 was awsome, i would love to see the other kongs as at's.

i also love the idea of falco having the glide ability, after all it makes sense.

Wouldnt it be cool if each character had their own special abilities? like mabye when playing as mario or luigi mushrooms would appear more often. Or mabye when playing as a poke character rarer pokemon appear in pokeballs. Somehting like a benifit for playing as a specific character.

 

[EggBomb]

That's a very good list you have there Wiseguy.

I personally don't think Shiek will come back in Brawl. I think Zamus is replacing her play style. The quickness, the whip, the stun (like needles), the Down B which is like Shieks up B, and the transforming aspects are remarkably similiar. The transforming in Melee was broken and Sakurai never intended Shiek to overshadow Zelda entirely. He's making playing as ZZS required through the FS...just as he's making the playing as the diff pokemon required through stamina. He then avoids a whole Zelda/Shiek fiasco.

The only way I see Shiek back is if a player is required to somehow play with BOTH Zelda and Shiek.

I also don't care about the interview. That could be entirely wrong, maybe he was talking about Zelda or an AT. People take stuff from interviews way too seriously.

If you think about it, it really DOES make sense that Zamus would Replace Shiek.


The differences on my 36 list are these:
-Kept Falco in
-Another FE Character: Marth or Miciahah (I don't have much exp with this series)
-(Removed Isaac in favor of above)
-Geno/Takamaru have last spot...can't decide!

I could def see Falco getting the boot so that both Geno and Taka could make it into the game. It's just weird for me to see FE go from 2 reps down to 1.

 

[AlbelNox]

-(Removed Isaac in favor of above)

You are a mistake in god's creation and should not waste the oxigen that hereby belongs to the rest of us.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I should punch you in the groin. DK64 was a great game. You just sucked at it so you gave up like a baby.

DK64 carried the torch that was lit by the previous DKC games...

...into a god**** waterfall.

Sorry, Numa. We have our opinion on DK64, too. To me, it was a craptastic collect-a-thon that falls into same niche as games like Spyro, Crash Bandicoot, and other generic platformers. It was a bland experience marred by a crappy camera, poorly implemented game mechanics (oh, yes. Swapping out with a Kong and using their SUPER COOL abilities to get past UNINSPIRED puzzles was so innovative. Yes, I was being sarcastic), and redundancy. It also didn't feel like DKC; it seems Rare was trying too **** hard to ape off of Super Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie's success rather than going with that old school Donkey Kong feel.

And before you tell me that I didn't finish the game, well...I did finish it. From beginning to end. I probably should have had a smaller pain threshold like Wiseguy.

Oh, and Numa? Again, I don't even wanna see you TRYING to debate with Wiseguy about his potential roster or even Black Shadow. You wanted to put the Happy Mask Salesman in Brawl. You wanna talk about lame...

COME ON.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ginger9001]

I should punch you in the groin. DK64 was a great game. You just sucked at it so you gave up like a baby.

Agreed. It was right up there with Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie I'd say.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

i think dk64 should get some regognition in brawl, it was one of my fav 64 games. Well i guess we already have the jetpack and teh popguns for diddy. But..but i want more!!! I say the other kongs (chunky, lanky, and tiny) should appear as at's doing one of their moves. Tiny could do her heli spin jump thing. Lanky could do his handstand sprint across the stage. and chunky could become hunky chunky and throw a massive primate punch.