Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Thirdkoopa]

No, hes moved onto a new theory that Takamaru will relace Marth. Maybe next week he'll think that Fierce Diety Link will replace Marth >_<

No <_< He thinks that michiah will join the brawl and takamaru will replace marth (Go to my wall of rant on this...)

 

[Copperpot]

I don't mean to bud into your guys' debate, but I think I can help move it along a little bit . . .

Well, if series importance trumps unique gameplay, why did Ice Climbers (a character from a single NES game that isn't even considered to be very good) get in Melee over the likes of Wario and Diddy Kong?

Primarily, this happens because there is no set rule as to who can or can't be playable. Ice Climbers happen to offer something that no other fighter can, with exception a Diddy and Dixie combo, but we all know why that would have never happened.

Now, in this case, the Ice Climbers demonstrate an immense amount of potential as a unique fighter, but they have little to no importance what-so-ever.

This is passable, and I think Sakurai was more-or-less going along the lines of covering the basics and then offering some randomness to the roster. Now that the roster is (hopefully) being expanded a bit, we can expect for him to blanket more of the basics and then turn around and spice things up a bit.

I guess becuase I don't agree with that statement. Here's how I see it (rough estimates, obviously):

K. Rool-
Series Importance: 9.5/10
Uniqueness: 5/10

Midna-
Series Importance: 6.5/10
Uniqueness: 10/10

(If it looks like I'm being hard on K. Rool's uniqueness score its becuase his only claim to uniqueness is that you can give him a cool, made up moveset from scratch. Midna, however, would be easy to create a moveset taking moves right from her game.)

It's not that K. Rool's numbers are skewed. I think you have exaggerated Mida's numbers a bit. While I won't argue that she can provide a very unique moveset, her importance to the series isn't nearly what you say it is. Of course, this is all objective, but coming from someone who has played nearly every Zelda game out there, I can say that, at this point, she isn't much more important than Skull Kid (if not less). They are both one-time stars that are there strictly as a catalist for the storyline, and she does not demonstrate the benefit of being a reoccuring character, at all. This is what drives me to say that she isn't so important to the 'series', but she is important to the one game she is in.

Now, I understand that she hasn't had enough time to reappear in the Zelda series (and she very well might), but that's a stipulation we can only ignore at this point. It has no bearing on her shot at the roster this time around.

Beats me. I'm arguing that both Zant and Midna are central figures in the plot of Twilight Princess.

And you are correct. I don't think anyone here can prove you wrong.

But, Twilight Princess is more of a compilation of two storylines. On one side, we have Midna trying to reclaim her original self and take her rightful place as leader of the Twili. On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

Throughout the series, Link is destined to rise up and defeat Ganondorf, so it really doesn't matter how he gets to that point. This alone debunks the claim that any minor character in the Zelda story has any real significance to the series itself.

And if you're thinking that I am against Midna, or pro-K. Rool, you'd be very incorrect. Personally, I'd rather Midna get in way, way before K. Rool. I just thought it'd be best to put a few things into perspective.

 

[Numa Dude]

I don't mean to bud into your guys' debate, but I think I can help move it along a little bit . . .



Primarily, this happens because there is no set rule as to who can or can't be playable. Ice Climbers happen to offer something that no other fighter can, with exception a Diddy and Dixie combo, but we all know why that would have never happened.

Now, in this case, the Ice Climbers demonstrate an immense amount of potential as a unique fighter, but they have little to no importance what-so-ever.

This is passable, and I think Sakurai was more-or-less going along the lines of covering the basics and then offering some randomness to the roster. Now that the roster is (hopefully) being expanded a bit, we can expect for him to blanket more of the basics and then turn around and spice things up a bit.



It's not that K. Rool's numbers are skewed. I think you have exaggerated Mida's numbers a bit. While I won't argue that she can provide a very unique moveset, her importance to the series isn't nearly what you say it is. Of course, this is all objective, but coming from someone who has played nearly every Zelda game out there, I can say that, at this point, she isn't much more important than Skull Kid (if not less). They are both one-time stars that are there strictly as a catalist for the storyline, and she does not demonstrate the benefit of being a reoccuring character, at all. This is what drives me to say that she isn't so important to the 'series', but she is important to the one game she is in.

Now, I understand that she hasn't had enough time to reappear in the Zelda series (and she very well might), but that's a stipulation we can only ignore at this point. It has no bearing on her shot at the roster this time around.



And you are correct. I don't think anyone here can prove you wrong.

But, Twilight Princess is more of a compilation of two storylines. On one side, we have Midna trying to reclaim her original self and take her rightful place as leader of the Twili. On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

Throughout the series, Link is destined to rise up and defeat Ganondorf, so it really doesn't matter how he gets to that point. This alone debunks the claim that any minor character in the Zelda story has any real significance to the series itself.

And if you're thinking that I am against Midna, or pro-K. Rool, you'd be very incorrect. Personally, I'd rather Midna get in way, way before K. Rool. I just thought it'd be best to put a few things into perspective.

Wiseguy, you need to listen to this guy more. He is absolutley right.

 

[JELLYHEAD]

Personally I'd love to see Ridley in this game that'd be awesome... though I know it's highly unlikely but now that we've seen the addition of Charizard it brings me a little hope that they would add another enormous character but I'd say that Ridley's best shot at inclusion is in the form of a sub-space boss or an assist trophie, though it'd be cool to have another metroid character appart from zero-suit Samus or dark samus.

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy i've seen your marth debate and i have to tell you something (Not that i will try and change your ways but...)

See the Ness situation was a more logical one because it was replacing an older Character that sakurai has wanted gone since Smash 64 with a "Newer" More interesting one to a series that has only had one rep throughout it's entire series, From what we have seen Ness and Lucas play very similar.

Now i want you to look at Fire Emblem; It got 2 Reps from the first time the series was represented and both lords were highly played as unlike Ness (Especially marth.) Consider how he was also popular enough to rank 11th on the Broll Newcomer poll AND Get in? He's also the first lord out of an 11 Series game who has had 3 Of them as HIS Altogether.

Now think what is senseble; Replacing a very old character with hardly any importance etc And giving the moveset to someone who can easily have it.

Now then what about FE? Killing both of it's 2 Lords off For 2 "Lesser" Lords in the series and giving marth's moveset to a guy from a 20 Year old game who has less popularity then marth; Does that REALLY Make a lot of sence for the series or is sensible in any way or form? The Ness situation was logical to bring in someone with a great moveset who ranked high on his polls (Claus.) And do what he has always wanted to do, Your logic about FE Would be like killing off Fox and Falco and then putting Krystal and Wolf to please the "Adventure/Assult/Command" Fans and then putting in Sukapon to replace Fox's old moveset.

I would actually argue that keeping Ness makes more sense than Marth, actually. Being one of the original 12 his removable marks the end of legacy. Plus, his game was the only one in the Mother series to ever be released outside Japan.

And I disagree that replacing Marth and Roy ith Ike and Miciaiah would be putting two "lesser" lords in place. Roy and Miciaiah are easily equals, as each have starred in one game (though Miciaiah's game wasn't limited to Japan's audience) and Ike and Marth have each starred in the same number of games as well - at least until Fire Emblem DS is released. In terms of series importance, I would say Ike and Miciaiah are equal to Marth and Roy.

Is that logical at all? If they were going to have him replaced by marth they would have said so in the update; If marth is the marketing dumby then it's very obvious why they revealed him first; I'm not saying that Marth is 100% Confirmed but he is quite close to that level and you should add him on (Even through you are not fixing this list anymore.) My point is just that it's not really a smart decision for the Developers because they will Anger many japanese fans that way, Get a character that hardly many now to take his moveset; And put two characters in for sheer fanservice; Sure michiah is unique but WHO Says FE Can't have 3 Reps ? FYI It has done shockingly well in the U.S. And has even gained a lot more popularity in japan, So what would be so bad about sakurai putting in Michiah Ike and Marth eh? For that it would be like Adding Krystal (Unique like michiah.) Keeping the "Marth" (Fox.) And adding an extra one which is Ike (Wolf or Falco.)

Would Sakurai have revealed Marth's demise in the Ike update? Who knows. The man revealed Metaknight's moveset twice. Who can predict what he'll do?

I would love to see 3 Fire Emblem characters. And if 3 characters do indeed make it, there is no doubt in my mind that MArth will knab one of those spots. I sort of agree with your theory of Star Fox and FE getting an equal number of characters, I just happen to be a bit more conservative as I think they will each get two.

See? It makes total sence for market advertisement seeing as they will be ALSO The 3 Newest lords when brawl comes out (Well afterwards...) So there is a lot into that that could blast off FE Into a higher ranking then it was before like how Melee advertised it, There is not really a sensible way to cut it down to 1 Rep as it highly can easily have 3 as i have explained (With my rant.) Also if your going to scream "NESS" How i already killed how that one was "Logical" It should also be noted that they picked the most recent one instead of ninten and Ness Lucas and Ninten are so similar were as Ike and Marth...Ok go get a freaking picture of them all four NOW And compare the differences between ike and marth and then Lucas and Ness, Lucas is practically a rip off of ness and Marth has a totally different playstyle with only 2 Moves different from Ike.

By your request:

I'm not sure how you can compare their playstyles by a still picture, but to my eye both pairs seem to have identical builds and artsyles while Ness & Lucas differ more in their hair, clothing, etc.

Also just because sakurai likes Takamaru doesen't mean much; Heck Little Mac was his 2nd Favorite game as Takamaru's game was his 3rd and Little Mac got AT'D! Consider how Sukapon managed to rank 1 On the melee polls and was suppose to be in melee and is rumored to have ranked higher then takamaru; He's a likely canidate instead since he brings more to the table.

So the chances of him getting replaced by takamaru are slim to none seeing how Takamaru is already QUESTIONABLE While Whereas Marth highly deserves to come back and Michiah for Newcomer to fit the bill well, You do the math this time AND THINK IT.

And you want to now what would sell more copiues of radiant dawn and marth's game? PUTTING MARTH IKE AND MICHIAH IN BROLL.

/End rant.

BTW Still a nice list, I Just had to get that rant out .

It matters not if Sakurai likes a character. What matters is if he feels they would be the best choice to be playable. Will he think this about Takamaru? I think so.

Hmm, today's update is pretty great. And here I thought the Brawl team was just going to ignore the prime series completely. The music is nice too.
And yesterday's update was also nice... Team event matches are awesome..

That's strange, getting good updates like this. It almost feels like before the boring updates started. I wonder if this is just a fluke, or if this means we've finally gotten through the bad updates... I mean, the Japanese release is about a month or so away...

Tottally agreed. Seeing a part of the Prime series in Brawl is utterly fantastic!

I don't mean to bud into your guys' debate, but I think I can help move it along a little bit . . .

Primarily, this happens because there is no set rule as to who can or can't be playable. Ice Climbers happen to offer something that no other fighter can, with exception a Diddy and Dixie combo, but we all know why that would have never happened.

Now, in this case, the Ice Climbers demonstrate an immense amount of potential as a unique fighter, but they have little to no importance what-so-ever.

This is passable, and I think Sakurai was more-or-less going along the lines of covering the basics and then offering some randomness to the roster. Now that the roster is (hopefully) being expanded a bit, we can expect for him to blanket more of the basics and then turn around and spice things up a bit.

We don't seem to be in disagreement here. I agree with everything you said to a T.

It's not that K. Rool's numbers are skewed. I think you have exaggerated Mida's numbers a bit. While I won't argue that she can provide a very unique moveset, her importance to the series isn't nearly what you say it is. Of course, this is all objective, but coming from someone who has played nearly every Zelda game out there, I can say that, at this point, she isn't much more important than Skull Kid (if not less). They are both one-time stars that are there strictly as a catalist for the storyline, and she does not demonstrate the benefit of being a reoccuring character, at all. This is what drives me to say that she isn't so important to the 'series', but she is important to the one game she is in.

Now, I understand that she hasn't had enough time to reappear in the Zelda series (and she very well might), but that's a stipulation we can only ignore at this point. It has no bearing on her shot at the roster this time around.

If you count all the Zelda games as equal, then that's true. But I would argue that certain Zelda games are more important to the series than others. For instance, I wouldn't put games like Link's Awakening and Four Sword Adventures on an even tier with games like A Link to the Past and Orcarina of Time (though that's certainly a debatable statement).

More to the point, my score of Midna's series importance likely looks inflated because I consider Twilight Princess to be a very important chapter in the overall saga. Not only was it an epic conclusion to the Oot/MM storyline, but Nintendo has said it will be the final "traditional" Zelda game (which I take to mean the final time the story centers on Ganon and Triforce).

And you are correct. I don't think anyone here can prove you wrong.

But, Twilight Princess is more of a compilation of two storylines. On one side, we have Midna trying to reclaim her original self and take her rightful place as leader of the Twili. On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

Throughout the series, Link is destined to rise up and defeat Ganondorf, so it really doesn't matter how he gets to that point. This alone debunks the claim that any minor character in the Zelda story has any real significance to the series itself.

And if you're thinking that I am against Midna, or pro-K. Rool, you'd be very incorrect. Personally, I'd rather Midna get in way, way before K. Rool. I just thought it'd be best to put a few things into perspective.

We seem to be in agreement on the relationship between the two storylines in TP.

However, it's inacurate to say that every game in the series just involves Link rising to defeat Ganon and how he gets there is unimportant. Disregarding the fact that games like Majora's Mask break this mold entirely, it's the specific characters and events from each game that gives the series its charm. Frankly, Zelda wouldn't be as interesting as it is without the colourful cast of supporting characters in each game. And in cases where the plot hinges on a non-Triforce character (such as Skull Kid in Majora's Mask, Vaati in Minish Cap and Midna in Twilight Princess) I think they do have some importance to the series.

 

[Numa Dude]

If you count all the Zelda games as equal, then that's true. But I would argue that certain Zelda games are more important to the series than others. For instance, I wouldn't put games like Link's Awakening and Four Sword Adventures on an even tier with games like A Link to the Past and Orcarina of Time (though that's certainly a debatable statement).

Wiseguy, I ask you, why would a man with no connection with any Zelda games be biased toward certain games? That makes no sense.

More to the point, my score of Midna's series importance likely looks inflated because I consider Twilight Princess to be a very important chapter in the overall saga. Not only was it an epic conclusion to the Oot/MM storyline, but Nintendo has said it will be the final "traditional" Zelda game (which I take to mean the final time the story centers on Ganon and Triforce).

By final traditional Zelda they meant gameplay. I once again ask why would a man with no connection to Zelda be biased toward certain games?

We seem to be in agreement on the relationship between the two storylines in TP.

However, it's inacurate to say that every game in the series just involves Link rising to defeat Ganon and how he gets there is unimportant. Disregarding the fact that games like Majora's Mask break this mold entirely, it's the specific characters and events from each game that gives the series its charm. Frankly, Zelda wouldn't be as interesting as it is without the colourful cast of supporting characters in each game. And in cases where the plot hinges on a non-Triforce character (such as Skull Kid in Majora's Mask, Vaati in Minish Cap and Midna in Twilight Princess) I think they do have some importance to the series.

They have importance to their respective games certainly but their series importance is considerably less. All three characters you mentioned have only been in a few games and there are much more important recurring characters who should get in first (I'm looking at you cell shaded Link and Tingle).

 

[pcamtz]

On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

LOL, here you make it sound as if those three were fighting eachother (which, when you think of it, wouldn't be a bad storyline after all )

You say that Midna's importance to the Zelda series is limited to TP, you're right, BUT in Brawl all Zelda representation comes from Twilight Princess, (at least for now). Character design, Link's weapons, the Bridge of Eldin... everything, even Ganondorf's most likely redesign (including his sword). So we can say that Sakurai is taking inspiration from Zelda TP, wouldn't it make sense that, if he wants to include a Zelda Newcomer, it would be from this particular game?

Take Sheik as an example, Sakurai was clearly taking inspiration from Ocarina for Melee(except for that one stage from Majora's, which BTW was very similar to Ocarina in design). Sheik was only in one game, Ocarina. You can argue what you want that Sheik is Zelda, but in reality it was Zelda's disguise for just this game, and it still made it in (as Zelda's transformation, but it still counts as a separate char). So the fact that Midna's importance just comes from TP isn't an obstacle to her inclusion, even when she's outside the Link-Zelda-Ganon trio (since those are all in, there needs to be a character outside those three, duh!)

That, plus the fact that she could be in with Wolf Link, would make Midna almost like the new Sheik (in the sense that they're important to just one game and that are second versions of main chars). And no, I'm not saying Sheik wont be back (in fact I think he/she/it/potato will be Zelda's Down B once more), I think Young Link should be the one replaced with WolfLink-Midna combo instead of WWLink replacing him, but this is not a WWLink discussion

 

[Aeronite's Kiseki]

I like the list because it can actually happen but still missing the WTF character that Smash has been known for


N64 - C. Falcon & Ness
GCN - Mr. Game and Watch, Marth, and Roy


I say if it might happen

Demiru/Demille - Great WTF Japan-Only character

Porky Minch - Mother 3...srange that they decided not to go with what he's called in Japan "Pokey Minch"

Lily Flyer - Out of left field character from F-Zero

and Ness - I'm just going to say it, I still think he has potential to be in. Why? Lucas might have taken his B-Moves but their A-moves are real different...I'm thinking Ness is going to be revamped

 

[Simon_Belmont]

I kinda like your new revision, except that, the old list (the one before this) I liked much more. Still, these are good lists.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I would actually argue that keeping Ness makes more sense than Marth, actually. Being one of the original 12 his removable marks the end of legacy. Plus, his game was the only one in the Mother series to ever be released outside Japan.

But if he was only in one while Lucas was in two, doesn't Lucas seem more important. I think he should've replaced Ness in melee to start with.

And I disagree that replacing Marth and Roy ith Ike and Miciaiah would be putting two "lesser" lords in place. Roy and Miciaiah are easily equals, as each have starred in one game (though Miciaiah's game wasn't limited to Japan's audience) and Ike and Marth have each starred in the same number of games as well - at least until Fire Emblem DS is released. In terms of series importance, I would say Ike and Miciaiah are equal to Marth and Roy.

You admited a few days ago that Marth is the most important FE character. Now you're saying he's equal to Ike. Your forgetting that, since melee is a video game after all, Marth technically has already starred in two games, and is also starring in the newest one FE DS. Face it, you're not going to ever win in terms of importance, because Marth just has had a greater impact on FE fans. Technically Roy has appeared in two FE games as well. He made a cameo apperance in the Epilogue of FE7.

Would Sakurai have revealed Marth's demise in the Ike update? Who knows. The man revealed Metaknight's moveset twice. Who can predict what he'll do?

Revealing Ike first would obviously create more hype than revealing Marth, so that could easibly be why he chose to do it that way. There are plenty of vetrans who haven't been revealed yet (heck, we still haven't seen Captain Falcon even though we've seen an assit trophy for his series.)

I would love to see 3 Fire Emblem characters. And if 3 characters do indeed make it, there is no doubt in my mind that MArth will knab one of those spots. I sort of agree with your theory of Star Fox and FE getting an equal number of characters, I just happen to be a bit more conservative as I think they will each get two.

And if FE gets two slots, don't you think it makes sense for one of those to include the most important character in the series? Micaiah's unique moveset potential does not negate the fact that she really is just a minor character when tallying all of the FE games. Pretty soon she won't even be the newest Lord (guess who shows up again)

By your request:

I'm not sure how you can compare their playstyles by a still picture, but to my eye both pairs seem to have identical builds and artsyles while Ness & Lucas differ more in their hair, clothing, etc.

But to my eye, Ike has a more raggedy outfit, Spikey hair, a head band, and what looks like half of a chestplate. Marth's guantlets are different from Ike's, Marth actually carries a sheath for his sword (which is much slimmer than Ike's), Marth is dressed in fine silk, he's wearing the Tiara his sister gave him before she died, and his belt and full chestplate each have a jewel embeded in them. Ness and Lucas look far more similar. Both of them are wearing horizontally striped T-shirts, jean shorts, and sneakers (even the color patterns of those sneakers are the same). There really are a lot more differences between Ike and Marth, you just have to get past the blue color and actually look at them.

It matters not if Sakurai likes a character. What matters is if he feels they would be the best choice to be playable. Will he think this about Takamaru? I think so.

What makes Takamaru a better choice than Marth? What does he offer that Marth doesn't. If it's fan service, then Marth still has him beat because he simply has more fans. If it's nostalgia, Marth still has him beat because he was the very first Lord of a long series. If it's uniqueness, Marth still has him beat because he already has a unique moveset (which Ike didn't get any of, thank you). Takamaru has no reason to get in over Marth and this is clearly a desperate attempt to justify his exclusion (because there really are no reasons to take him out). Marth has more fans than Takamaru, is more important than Takamaru (he's starred in two games and started a franchise, Takamaru starred in one good game that, unfourtunately, was never continued), is a vetran, and is even a internationally known character.


You continue this weak Takamaru arguement to try to justify Micaiah getting in instead of Marth, despite you acknowledging that he is not as good a rep for FE as he is. Well, now I'm simply attacking this arguement because, if proven invalid, it will also tear down your other arguement that Micaiah can be in brawl while still having Marth's moveset preserved. I don't want Marth's moveset, I want Marth.

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy, I ask you, why would a man with no connection with any Zelda games be biased toward certain games? That makes no sense.

By final traditional Zelda they meant gameplay. I once again ask why would a man with no connection to Zelda be biased toward certain games?

I never said he would be biased towards certain games. I think he will represent some games more than others, but how he will decide which ones is anyone's guess.

What I was saying is that, objectively speaking, Twilight Princess is an incredibly important chapter in the overall saga.

They have importance to their respective games certainly but their series importance is considerably less. All three characters you mentioned have only been in a few games and there are much more important recurring characters who should get in first (I'm looking at you cell shaded Link and Tingle).

I agree that Tingle and WW Link have more series importance. I think WW Link will likely get in before Midna (hense their respective places on my list) but in spite of his series importance Tingle has definitely not in the running (for whatever reason). Why else would his trophy be revealed alongside a Nintendog, Bulborb and banana?

If a fifth Zelda character gets in, my money's definitely on Midna.

I like the list because it can actually happen but still missing the WTF character that Smash has been known for


N64 - C. Falcon & Ness
GCN - Mr. Game and Watch, Marth, and Roy


I say if it might happen

Demiru/Demille - Great WTF Japan-Only character

Porky Minch - Mother 3...srange that they decided not to go with what he's called in Japan "Pokey Minch"

Lily Flyer - Out of left field character from F-Zero

and Ness - I'm just going to say it, I still think he has potential to be in. Why? Lucas might have taken his B-Moves but their A-moves are real different...I'm thinking Ness is going to be revamped

I dunno, I think Takamaru and Geno are pretty WTF. Those are pretty original ideas, though.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ness return, but I'm afraid I have to remain skeptical.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread!

EDIT: Hold on Sonicwave. Just missed you...

 

[UsernameLink]

As reading throught it, I was thinking that Midna was gone

But, she was included! Even if it was a round up to 40 character.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You know, Marth and Roy were just as much WTF characters to us Americans as G&W and Ice climbers. BTW you didn't read my post.

 

[Numa Dude]

I never said he would be biased towards certain games. I think he will represent some games more than others, but how he will decide which ones is anyone's guess.

Of course he will represent some games more. TP and PH are fresh in everyones minds so of course they will be the main focus but there is a limit to how much he can take from those games before he starts being unfair to the series. Let say for sakes argument he does add Midna. He would basically be saying Midna is better than all the other secondary characters which is untrue. Sakurai will try to be as unbiased as possible which means no overrepping of certain games.

What I was saying is that, objectively speaking, Twilight Princess is an incredibly important chapter in the overall saga.

Not really. It wasn't the perfect game it was hyped up to be and story wise it doesn't seem that important in the scope of things.

I agree that Tingle and WW Link have more series importance. I think WW Link will likely get in before Midna (hense their respective places on my list) but in spite of his series importance Tingle has definitely not in the running (for whatever reason). Why else would his trophy be revealed alongside a Nintendog, Bulborb and banana?

Trophy=/= deconfirmation. Playable characters have trophies too and since Sakurai revealed Meta's moveset twice it's not too far fetched to think he will reveal a playable character as a trophy.

If a fifth Zelda character gets in, my money's definitely on Midna.

Just curious, exactly how much money would you bet?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I would actually argue that keeping Ness makes more sense than Marth, actually. Being one of the original 12 his removable marks the end of legacy. Plus, his game was the only one in the Mother series to ever be released outside Japan.

And I disagree that replacing Marth and Roy ith Ike and Miciaiah would be putting two "lesser" lords in place. Roy and Miciaiah are easily equals, as each have starred in one game (though Miciaiah's game wasn't limited to Japan's audience) and Ike and Marth have each starred in the same number of games as well - at least until Fire Emblem DS is released. In terms of series importance, I would say Ike and Miciaiah are equal to Marth and Roy.

...
KEEPING NESS MAKES SENCE?!?!?!?!?! BULL.
Looks like somebody needs a history lesson.

First off Ness's international appearence means nothing; His game sold horrible in the U.S. While in Japan it STILL Didn't do that great and Also Lucas was suppose to be in his place And it was better to remove ness to leave space open for Claus.

Roy Actually has had the 3rd Best selling FE Game under his arms and has been quite popular from Melee (However not that i'm saying they should keep him.) And BTW Marth Has had 2 Games AND Claims the most popular lord AND The first one AND The first one in Smash, Also he will have a recent game, Oh BTW Roy was minor in one game and Major in one if i can remember right while Michiah only was lesser in one.

...Wut?

Would Sakurai have revealed Marth's demise in the Ike update? Who knows. The man revealed Metaknight's moveset twice. Who can predict what he'll do?

I would love to see 3 Fire Emblem characters. And if 3 characters do indeed make it, there is no doubt in my mind that MArth will knab one of those spots. I sort of agree with your theory of Star Fox and FE getting an equal number of characters, I just happen to be a bit more conservative as I think they will each get two.

Ok, Since sakurai can do something unpredictable then Sukapon should take Captain falcons moveset While Luigi is cut and Ganondorf is given his Side B Then King Dedede's A Moves will be the Indifferent smiley while Lucas will be paired up with Jeff and Claus will Join the brawl with Lucas while Pokey Will be the DS Icon rep with Dr.Lobe and Dr.Lobe's B Move will be pulling out either Ashley Ness or Lololo then There will be 60 Characters and there will be 5 Sonic stages with the Warioware symbol while Mona and Jimmy T Will be tag up characters.

...No.
Your point about "What else can he do" Is BS, So what? He did it once without explaining it, See all that i said in the last paragraph is possible apparently because who ELSE Can predict what he will do?

And marth shouldn't knab one of those spots? Again WG There could've been 2 FE Reps in..>

SMASH SIXSTY-FOUR LOL.
Yes, He wanted to put in Sigurd but was modest about it and if Sigurd was in then it's likely that marth was going to follow behind, And in Melee they managed to get TWO Reps to fufill it, TWO It's first get-go around with only slight popularity in japan with 5-6 Games.

Now it has insane japanese popularity with some American popularity following right behind it, I Think if they have the time then we can get 3 Reps, And marth can have an easy time getting in with 2; And Starfox could easily have a third one also seeing how Falco is the second most popular SF Character.

By your request:

I'm not sure how you can compare their playstyles by a still picture, but to my eye both pairs seem to have identical builds and artsyles while Ness & Lucas differ more in their hair, clothing, etc.

Look again VERY CLOSELY.
See the build on Ness and Lucas? SEE IT? Change the hair styles and shirt and your done.

With Marth he has more of a lean pose with a smaller sword etc (Must i go into the details?) While ike has a heavy bulk pose there with his hair all frigged up.

WRONG.

It matters not if Sakurai likes a character. What matters is if he feels they would be the best choice to be playable. Will he think this about Takamaru? I think so.

So instead of making a great character unique he should instead just give him marth's moveset as being the highest ranked lord :/? That's like giving Sukapon Mario's Moveset (Which is dead flat pointless when you could make Sukapon and Mario different.) Why the hell would he make him playable then? Also think how many Sukapon and Marth fans would get pissed at Sakurai for giving Takamaru that? Even takamaru fans will be annoyed seeing how sakurai could've made takamaru different, That won't please to many people; And what about when he could put in Michiah Ike AND Marth to please the FE Fans and give Takamaru a creative moveset? Again Sukapon can easily outprioritize him like he was about to in melee; My point about little mac was that sakurai doesen't always get what he wants.

Again giving Takamaru Marth's moveset...At that rate it would be better to just trash him altogether if they wanted to Also as i said with my "They replace fox and falco then add wolf and krystal for fan-service while giving sukapon fox's moveset!" It just won't work.

These are PRO Programmers To be able to declone something.

/Endrant.

 

[Simon_Belmont]

Oh and I would also like to thank you for the really really awesome comments on Simon (the past one and this one). It just gives me goosebumps reading those comments!

 

[Al Calnos]

Ya know, it'd be funny if Midna replaced Sheik as Zelda's Down+B. Man would that cause fan riots.

 

[Wiseguy]

But if he was only in one while Lucas was in two, doesn't Lucas seem more important. I think he should've replaced Ness in melee to start with.

Lucas was in two games?? I thought there were only 3 Mother games:

Mother 1 (Starring Ninten)

Mother 2 (starring Ness)

Mother 3 (starring Lucas)

You admited a few days ago that Marth is the most important FE character. Now you're saying he's equal to Ike. Your forgetting that, since melee is a video game after all, Marth technically has already starred in two games, and is also starring in the newest one FE DS. Face it, you're not going to ever win in terms of importance, because Marth just has had a greater impact on FE fans. Technically Roy has appeared in two FE games as well. He made a cameo apperance in the Epilogue of FE7.

I said that for the moment he's appeared in two games. Being the first lord (and the star of the upcoming title) still matter, so I guess your right there. Forgot about Roy's cameo too, (though it IS pretty minor...)

My bad. ThirdKoopa and yourself are right: Marth & Roy > Ike & Miciaiah (in series importance). But it's not THAT wide of a margin.

Revealing Ike first would obviously create more hype than revealing Marth, so that could easibly be why he chose to do it that way. There are plenty of vetrans who haven't been revealed yet (heck, we still haven't seen Captain Falcon even though we've seen an assit trophy for his series.)

It still strikes me as a tad odd, even taking into account the irratic nature of the character updates (where IS Captain Falcon??). Either way, I don't think the lack of metions of Marth can be taken as proof of his return or his demise.

And if FE gets two slots, don't you think it makes sense for one of those to include the most important character in the series? Micaiah's unique moveset potential does not negate the fact that she really is just a minor character when tallying all of the FE games. Pretty soon she won't even be the newest Lord (guess who shows up again)

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a definite possibility, even a likely one. But just becuase Miciah's a minor lord doesn't negate her high moveset potential either. Her inclusion over Marth would be a surpising development yes, but it isn't without merits. Going strictly by popularity, one might have expected Sigurd to take up the number 2 spot in Melee.

But to my eye, Ike has a more raggedy outfit, Spikey hair, a head band, and what looks like half of a chestplate. Marth's guantlets are different from Ike's, Marth actually carries a sheath for his sword (which is much slimmer than Ike's), Marth is dressed in fine silk, he's wearing the Tiara his sister gave him before she died, and his belt and full chestplate each have a jewel embeded in them. Ness and Lucas look far more similar. Both of them are wearing horizontally striped T-shirts, jean shorts, and sneakers (even the color patterns of those sneakers are the same). There really are a lot more differences between Ike and Marth, you just have to get past the blue color and actually look at them.

Also, Lucas lacks a red hat or bookbag.

I know the Ike/Marth differences exist, but I think they seem more subtle unless you examine them closely. And given the size of Smash characters on the TV screen, close examination is rarely possible.

BUT I highly doubt that appearance will make or break Marth. What he brings to the table moveset wise and his notable importance to the FE series are what the decision will be based on.

What makes Takamaru a better choice than Marth? What does he offer that Marth doesn't. If it's fan service, then Marth still has him beat because he simply has more fans. If it's nostalgia, Marth still has him beat because he was the very first Lord of a long series. If it's uniqueness, Marth still has him beat because he already has a unique moveset (which Ike didn't get any of, thank you). Takamaru has no reason to get in over Marth and this is clearly a desperate attempt to justify his exclusion (because there really are no reasons to take him out). Marth has more fans than Takamaru, is more important than Takamaru (he's starred in two games and started a franchise, Takamaru starred in one good game that, unfourtunately, was never continued), is a vetran, and is even a internationally known character.

I think you are confusing convenience with uniqueness. Marth already has a moveset (which may or may not have been used as a template for Ike) but Takamaru would definitely bring a more unique presense to the roster and a different kind of moveset. He has the element of surprise, which Marth doesn't. He would also represent a different franchise, while Marth's is already represented. And he did make a strong showing on Sakurai's recent polls, which is surprising considering the last game in his franchise was released 20 odd years ago.

You continue this weak Takamaru arguement to try to justify Micaiah getting in instead of Marth, despite you acknowledging that he is not as good a rep for FE as he is. Well, now I'm simply attacking this arguement because, if proven invalid, it will also tear down your other arguement that Micaiah can be in brawl while still having Marth's moveset preserved. I don't want Marth's moveset, I want Marth.

And I know you are not alone in that. Lots of people would probably be up in arms if Marth bites the bullet. Perhaps rightly so.

But I would not keep Marth off the list just to keep Miciah on there. A) I'm not really a fan of Miciah. If were going to keep any FE character on the list at all costs it would be Black Knight. B) I am not against Marth's inclusion. Honestly and truly. If he was revealed tommorow I would be fine with that. If I'm against any character it's Shiek, and I included that character on my list (reluctantly).

If these predictions turn out to be flase, then its because my reasons were flawed. Not because I confused what I wanted with what I thought would happen.

Of course he will represent some games more. TP and PH are fresh in everyones minds so of course they will be the main focus but there is a limit to how much he can take from those games before he starts being unfair to the series. Let say for sakes argument he does add Midna. He would basically be saying Midna is better than all the other secondary characters which is untrue. Sakurai will try to be as unbiased as possible which means no overrepping of certain games.

Being a playable character in Brawl does not neccessarily mean that they are the most important. Just that they were the best choice for being a playable character.

Not really. It wasn't the perfect game it was hyped up to be and story wise it doesn't seem that important in the scope of things.

Different people, different interpretations I suppose...

Trophy=/= deconfirmation. Playable characters have trophies too and since Sakurai revealed Meta's moveset twice it's not too far fetched to think he will reveal a playable character as a trophy.

I cannot fathom why Sakurai would reveal Tingle alongside a bannana if a full moveset is in the works. But whatever...

Bulborb for Brawl!

Just curious, exactly how much money would you bet?

My life savings. And the family farm. Think I should've bet more...?

...
KEEPING NESS MAKES SENCE?!?!?!?!?! BULL.
Looks like somebody needs a history lesson.

First off Ness's international appearence means nothing; His game sold horrible in the U.S. While in Japan it STILL Didn't do that great and Also Lucas was suppose to be in his place And it was better to remove ness to leave space open for Claus.

Roy Actually has had the 3rd Best selling FE Game under his arms and has been quite popular from Melee (However not that i'm saying they should keep him.) And BTW Marth Has had 2 Games AND Claims the most popular lord AND The first one AND The first one in Smash, Also he will have a recent game, Oh BTW Roy was minor in one game and Major in one if i can remember right while Michiah only was lesser in one.

...Wut?

Ness' international status may in his series be insignificant, but his original 12 status isn't. But there's little point arguing this now...

...
Ok, Since sakurai can do something unpredictable then Sukapon should take Captain falcons moveset While Luigi is cut and Ganondorf is given his Side B Then King Dedede's A Moves will be the Indifferent smiley while Lucas will be paired up with Jeff and Claus will Join the brawl with Lucas while Pokey Will be the DS Icon rep with Dr.Lobe and Dr.Lobe's B Move will be pulling out either Ashley Ness or Lololo then There will be 60 Characters and there will be 5 Sonic stages with the Warioware symbol while Mona and Jimmy T Will be tag up characters.

...No.

From the sounds of it, your character roster is going to be pretty unique..

...
Your point about "What else can he do" Is BS, So what? He did it once without explaining it, See all that i said in the last paragraph is possible apparently because who ELSE Can predict what he will do?

And marth shouldn't knab one of those spots? Again WG There could've been 2 FE Reps in..>

SMASH SIXSTY-FOUR LOL.
Yes, He wanted to put in Sigurd but was modest about it and if Sigurd was in then it's likely that marth was going to follow behind, And in Melee they managed to get TWO Reps to fufill it, TWO It's first get-go around with only slight popularity in japan with 5-6 Games.

Now it has insane japanese popularity with some American popularity following right behind it, I Think if they have the time then we can get 3 Reps, And marth can have an easy time getting in with 2; And Starfox could easily have a third one also seeing how Falco is the second most popular SF Character.

I agree that both the SF and FE franchises deserve 3 characters. But I was going for a conservative roster this time round, so I tried to hold back on the supporting characters for established series. Time will tell if I went overboards or not.

...
Look again VERY CLOSELY.
See the build on Ness and Lucas? SEE IT? Change the hair styles and shirt and your done.

With Marth he has more of a lean pose with a smaller sword etc (Must i go into the details?) While ike has a heavy bulk pose there with his hair all frigged up.

WRONG.

And remove his cap and bookbag...

Again: Marth/Ike have more differences, but the Lucas/Ness ones are more obvious.

...
So instead of making a great character unique he should instead just give him marth's moveset as being the highest ranked lord :/? That's like giving Sukapon Mario's Moveset (Which is dead flat pointless when you could make Sukapon and Mario different.) Why the hell would he make him playable then? Also think how many Sukapon and Marth fans would get pissed at Sakurai for giving Takamaru that? Even takamaru fans will be annoyed seeing how sakurai could've made takamaru different, That won't please to many people; And what about when he could put in Michiah Ike AND Marth to please the FE Fans and give Takamaru a creative moveset? Again Sukapon can easily outprioritize him like he was about to in melee; My point about little mac was that sakurai doesen't always get what he wants.

Again giving Takamaru Marth's moveset...At that rate it would be better to just trash him altogether if they wanted to Also as i said with my "They replace fox and falco then add wolf and krystal for fan-service while giving sukapon fox's moveset!" It just won't work.

These are PRO Programmers To be able to declone something.

/Endrant.

I'm not saying they will just give Marth's moveset to Tak, I'm saying they will make him a sppedy swordfighter in the same vein as Marth to the gap in the roster.

Oh and I would also like to thank you for the really really awesome comments on Simon (the past one and this one). It just gives me goosebumps reading those comments!

No prob. Least I could do for the great Belmont!

Ya know, it'd be funny if Midna replaced Sheik as Zelda's Down+B. Man would that cause fan riots.

Indeed. But it makes as much sense as her transforming into Sheik...

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Ness' international status may in his series be insignificant, but his original 12 status isn't. But there's little point arguing this now...

Again his status THERE Meant nothing to sakurai.
"I've wanted to take ness out and put lucas since Smash 64"
Lulwut? And he has NO Hatred towards Marth whatsoever.
Ness was destined for doom since the begining, He was very unimportant and a mistake to Smash, Marth at least got his games to an international status.
The End.
Oh and by your logic about melee then Someone like Ganondorf or G&W Shouldn't be in over Ness right? :|.

From the sounds of it, your character roster is going to be pretty unique..

I Can promise you that there will be some WTF Things on there :D :D :D, But my point was your "He can do anything at this point".

I agree that both the SF and FE franchises deserve 3 characters. But I was going for a conservative roster this time round, so I tried to hold back on the supporting characters for established series. Time will tell if I went overboards or not.

Indeed; I'm just saying how another one should be on your main roster With his high importance/Advertisement potential/Being in melee/Etc.

And remove his cap and bookbag...
Again: Marth/Ike have more differences, but the Lucas/Ness ones are more obvious.

Cap
Bookbag
Change the shirt
Change the hair
Wut?
And then you look at ike's and marth's...We can discuss this all day but it won't get us anywhere; It's just that it easily makes more sence to have marth and ike instead of Ness and Lucas. (Like how Luigi is taller then mario etc.)

I'm not saying they will just give Marth's moveset to Tak, I'm saying they will make him a sppedy swordfighter in the same vein as Marth to the gap in the roster.

Ok then that's just downright ridiculous.

Your basically giving a 20 Year Old Retro that some people on sakurai's polls want but more want Sukapon; That already pisses off the Sukapon fans.

Then you kill BOTH FE Vets and Add in Ike and Michiah; Many FE Players and Smash won't be happy.

After that you piss off all the Takamaru fans by giving Takamaru an unoriginal moveset taking another one when he is not even similar to marth.

And finally Sakurai would lose a great marketing investment off of marth.

Basically you got THIS For all the Smash fans:

<Wiseguy


And even THEN It wouldn't work, Like i said, The ness situation was more logical And is NOTHING Compareable to this one as Zevox Sonic Wave and I Have continiously ranted to you about; It's replacing a vet with high importance who will have a recent appearence instead of it getting the Three reps it deserves THEN Putting a lesser character to dwell and FINALLY Giving his moveset to a 20 Year old character who could have a moveset totally different despite Sukapon ranking higher on the polls and being one journal entry behind.

...Wut? And we all know how he doesen't always get his way.

Yayz i win, I'm right and your wrong (In a way.) Marth should be on this list; Do it NAOW...Unless you give me ONE Good reason why Takamaru should get in over Marth and Sukapon and Michiah should be on (Not that something like Takamaru over Sukapon is farfected but when you put all that together..) I Mean he would already be throwing away a character with great potential and lose someone who is very popular/Important to the series/Marketinglawlzorz/Etc To it, It won't work.

 

[Zevox]

Ya know, it'd be funny if Midna replaced Sheik as Zelda's Down+B. Man would that cause fan riots.

Want to know why it would do that? Because it would make no sense. Midna and Zelda are two completely separate, unrelated characters. Zelda turning into Sheik makes perfect sense, because Sheik is just a disguise Zelda donned in OoT. Anyone turning into Midna would make no sense, because Midna is her own character. It would be like Link transforming into Tingle.

As for the Marth thing, I'm done arguing with Wiseguy over it. Its perfectly obvious hes too stubborn to be moved on the issue, and hes made it clear its nothing more than his opinions influencing his decision. Since his opinions have no control over Sakurai & co, theres no point in trying to dissuade him out of his bias. Nothing short of Marth's confirmation is going to get him to put him on his predictions anyway.

Zevox

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^You gotta admit, that's pretty funny.

BTW, If you were taking out a lesser character (like Dr.Mario or Pichu, or even just using him to replace Roy) then I'd have no problem with Takamaru. It's just that to me
GIGANTIC FANBASE+Series Importance+Vetran+Large Series+Unique moveset potential > Kinda big fanbase+Unique moveset potential+WTF factor.

And I still don't believe that Sakurai would want to dissapoint so many fans by putting in Micaiah over Marth because once again
GIGANTIC FANBASE+Series Importance+Vetran+Unique moveset> Medium Fanbase+Unique moveset potential.

Even if you were to believe that the potential for a unique moveset is the most important factor for a character getting in (which I personally don't), is it really enough to make all of those other traits not mean anything?

You yourself said that Marth is very likely to appear in brawl. Isn't that the same as saying you think he'll be in? That means he should be on your list, considering the list is reflecting what you think the brawl roster will be.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Want to know why it would do that? Because it would make no sense. Midna and Zelda are two completely separate, unrelated characters. Zelda turning into Sheik makes perfect sense, because Sheik is just a disguise Zelda donned in OoT. Anyone turning into Midna would make no sense, because Midna is her own character. It would be like Link transforming into Tingle.

As for the Marth thing, I'm done arguing with Wiseguy over it. Its perfectly obvious hes too stubborn to be moved on the issue, and hes made it clear its nothing more than his opinions influencing his decision. Since his opinions have no control over Sakurai & co, theres no point in trying to dissuade him out of his bias. Nothing short of Marth's confirmation is going to get him to put him on his predictions anyway.

Zevox

*Watches the full arguement i managed to create of me owning the "Ignorant" Wiseguy*

Apparently i did it Zevox .

 

[Erimir]

You know, if you think about it, there's not that good of a reason to assume that someone revealed as a trophy couldn't be a character.

Why would you think that? Because it would remove the element of surprise?

Well, at this point you're expecting characters shown as trophies to have no chance of appearing. So if he revealed one of them as a playable character, wouldn't it be... a shock?

It'll still be surprising. What wouldn't work is he revealed two or three characters as trophies before announcing them as playable. But doing just one of them would still have a surprise factor.

 

[Brawler360]

Gotta say, that's a decent list. All would love it if all of those were the final roster, as I'm sure most of us would.

 

[Brawler360]

You know, if you think about it, there's not that good of a reason to assume that someone revealed as a trophy couldn't be a character.

Why would you think that? Because it would remove the element of surprise?

Well, at this point you're expecting characters shown as trophies to have no chance of appearing. So if he revealed one of them as a playable character, wouldn't it be... a shock?

It'll still be surprising. What wouldn't work is he revealed two or three characters as trophies before announcing them as playable. But doing just one of them would still have a surprise factor.

Just when I thought I wouldn't hear anything more ridiculous from people here...

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

as always your roster is 10/10 for me(partly because ridley makes that 10)

 

[Tatanga4Brawl]

What do you call it when Mallo is tortured?

 

[NinjaT2D]

Sheik's in, there's an artcle about them making a new TP look for her in brawl, plus, she/he's my main.

 

[Numa Dude]

Being a playable character in Brawl does not neccessarily mean that they are the most important. Just that they were the best choice for being a playable character.

There are tons of Zelda characters who would be better choices than Midna. Tingle and Skull Kid are both a hell of alot more unique.

I cannot fathom why Sakurai would reveal Tingle alongside a bannana if a full moveset is in the works. But whatever...

Bulborb for Brawl!

I can't fathom why Sakurai would reveal a characters moveset twice but whatever.

Tingle for brawl!

 

[OysterMeister]

Hey, if we're all throwing out possible Zelda reps (after the new, cartoony young link, that is) then let's not forget Vaati.
I mean, the new young link isn't going to fit in with the rest of the twilight princess inspired cast. He's going to need his own villain. Someone who appears exclusivley in the new, cartoony styled games. Someone who requires their very own legendary sword to be killed. Someone like Vaati.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

i personally would love to see a majoras mask link. It would work like pt in that youd have to swiych masks after a while. there would be goron link, deku link, zora link, and regular young link. and the final smash could be the mask that you wear for the final battle, i forget the name of it.

 

[Ginger9001]

i personally would love to see a majoras mask link. It would work like pt in that youd have to swiych masks after a while. there would be goron link, deku link, zora link, and regular young link. and the final smash could be the mask that you wear for the final battle, i forget the name of it.

Fierce Diety? Good idea by the way.

 

[Erimir]

Just when I thought I wouldn't hear anything more ridiculous from people here...

What's so ridiculous about it?

I see people assuming that a trophy couldn't be revealed as a character. Like I asked, for what reason? Did Sakurai say anything about it? I don't think so.

So the reason to assume so is that it would remove the element of surprise. But, as I pointed out, you would be surprised if one of them was revealed as a character. So there would still be an element of surprise.

Not that I think that any of the characters revealed as trophies are likely. I don't think Tingle or Dixie will be characters. Not likely at all. Just that I don't see any reason to view them as 100% deconfirmed because they were shown as trophies.

There are plenty of other good reasons to think that they won't be playable characters tho.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Sakurai is not trying to mindgame us that hard. Come on... It's kinda silly to hope for a shown trophy to be revealed as a newcomer, because:

1. No newcomer has slipped.
2. Just compare the PC Trophies to the other trophies. There is quite a difference in detail.

 

[Wiseguy]

Again his status THERE Meant nothing to sakurai.
"I've wanted to take ness out and put lucas since Smash 64"
Lulwut? And he has NO Hatred towards Marth whatsoever.
Ness was destined for doom since the begining, He was very unimportant and a mistake to Smash, Marth at least got his games to an international status.
The End.
Oh and by your logic about melee then Someone like Ganondorf or G&W Shouldn't be in over Ness right? :|.

I don't think he hated Ness, I just think he felt Lucas was a better choice for Brawl. Whether or not Marth returns will similarly depend on what he decides is best for the game. I just happen to disagree with most people on what he will decide, in this case.

Ok then that's just downright ridiculous.

Your basically giving a 20 Year Old Retro that some people on sakurai's polls want but more want Sukapon; That already pisses off the Sukapon fans.

Then you kill BOTH FE Vets and Add in Ike and Michiah; Many FE Players and Smash won't be happy.

After that you piss off all the Takamaru fans by giving Takamaru an unoriginal moveset taking another one when he is not even similar to marth.

And finally Sakurai would lose a great marketing investment off of marth.

Basically you got THIS For all the Smash fans:

<Wiseguy


And even THEN It wouldn't work, Like i said, The ness situation was more logical And is NOTHING Compareable to this one as Zevox Sonic Wave and I Have continiously ranted to you about; It's replacing a vet with high importance who will have a recent appearence instead of it getting the Three reps it deserves THEN Putting a lesser character to dwell and FINALLY Giving his moveset to a 20 Year old character who could have a moveset totally different despite Sukapon ranking higher on the polls and being one journal entry behind.

...Wut? And we all know how he doesen't always get his way.

Yayz i win, I'm right and your wrong (In a way.) Marth should be on this list; Do it NAOW...Unless you give me ONE Good reason why Takamaru should get in over Marth and Sukapon and Michiah should be on (Not that something like Takamaru over Sukapon is farfected but when you put all that together..) I Mean he would already be throwing away a character with great potential and lose someone who is very popular/Important to the series/Marketinglawlzorz/Etc To it, It won't work.

About Tak, I'm not suggesting they give him an unoriginal moveset as he could probably do alot with the Japanese swordfighting style. What I am suggesting is that they might make him a speedy, comboable fighter so as to appeal to the former Marth players.

As for the Marth thing, I'm done arguing with Wiseguy over it. Its perfectly obvious hes too stubborn to be moved on the issue, and hes made it clear its nothing more than his opinions influencing his decision. Since his opinions have no control over Sakurai & co, theres no point in trying to dissuade him out of his bias. Nothing short of Marth's confirmation is going to get him to put him on his predictions anyway.

Zevox

Yeah, I think we've noth said our peace on this topic, so perhaps we should agree to disagree. If it turns out that you are rigth and I am just being stuborn in the face of defeat, you have my permission to rub it in my face come Marth's confirmation. Peace.

^^You gotta admit, that's pretty funny.

BTW, If you were taking out a lesser character (like Dr.Mario or Pichu, or even just using him to replace Roy) then I'd have no problem with Takamaru. It's just that to me
GIGANTIC FANBASE+Series Importance+Vetran+Large Series+Unique moveset potential > Kinda big fanbase+Unique moveset potential+WTF factor.

And I still don't believe that Sakurai would want to dissapoint so many fans by putting in Micaiah over Marth because once again
GIGANTIC FANBASE+Series Importance+Vetran+Unique moveset> Medium Fanbase+Unique moveset potential.

Even if you were to believe that the potential for a unique moveset is the most important factor for a character getting in (which I personally don't), is it really enough to make all of those other traits not mean anything?

You yourself said that Marth is very likely to appear in brawl. Isn't that the same as saying you think he'll be in? That means he should be on your list, considering the list is reflecting what you think the brawl roster will be.

There is a difference between what is likely and what I think will happen. Maybe characters that been revealed thus far have seemed like pretty insane and unlikely additions. And, personally, the only roster predictions I find completely unbelievable are the ones devoid of any surpises. And seeing Tak and Miciah make the cut over Marth would definitely qualify as a surpsise.

You know, if you think about it, there's not that good of a reason to assume that someone revealed as a trophy couldn't be a character.

Why would you think that? Because it would remove the element of surprise?

Well, at this point you're expecting characters shown as trophies to have no chance of appearing. So if he revealed one of them as a playable character, wouldn't it be... a shock?

It'll still be surprising. What wouldn't work is he revealed two or three characters as trophies before announcing them as playable. But doing just one of them would still have a surprise factor.

Sakurai is not trying to mindgame us that hard. Come on... It's kinda silly to hope for a shown trophy to be revealed as a newcomer, because:

1. No newcomer has slipped.
2. Just compare the PC Trophies to the other trophies. There is quite a difference in detail.

I agree with PGY on this one. Revealing a playable character alongisde uniportant trophies seems like it just wouldn't happen.

Gotta say, that's a decent list. All would love it if all of those were the final roster, as I'm sure most of us would.

Thanks for the compliment Brawler, but I think the Marth Defense Force would disagree...

as always your roster is 10/10 for me(partly because ridley makes that 10)

Thank you for the generous score, RFTB!!!

What do you call it when Mallo is tortured?

....uh, a rosted marshmellow?

There are tons of Zelda characters who would be better choices than Midna. Tingle and Skull Kid are both a hell of alot more unique.

I would ague not. Unique? Definitely. More than Midna? Ferro's moveset makes me beleivre otherwise. You may feel free to disagree.

Hey, if we're all throwing out possible Zelda reps (after the new, cartoony young link, that is) then let's not forget Vaati.
I mean, the new young link isn't going to fit in with the rest of the twilight princess inspired cast. He's going to need his own villain. Someone who appears exclusivley in the new, cartoony styled games. Someone who requires their very own legendary sword to be killed. Someone like Vaati.

I agree that Vaati is a contender, but I'm not sure that he would make a better choice than Midna. Minish Cap rocks and the Four Sword games.... exist, but ten years from now I think Twilight Princess will still be rememebered as one of the greatest games in both the Zelda series and gaming in general. For that, (and Midna's incredible uniqueness) I give her the edge.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Let me throw out my few cents:

1.
Sheik had his/her/its time in the spotlight. Melee payed good homage to the N64, as that was what they had to pool from, but now Brawl is in the 7th Gen and we can't keep being hung up on the past. Going Twilight Princess with the style showed that the OoT style is just what it is: Over. Nintendo has a perfectly good (And may I say popular) Zelda game out there, why pool from the stuff that you've already done? Sorry, but it comes off to me that it's either the incredibly imaginitve and unique Midna over the already done, next please, Sheik. Zelda deserves to be her own character, not just some two for one character combo. Midna is simply the more logical choice. Or WW Link. Heck, even Vaati or Zant!

2.
Sample work for Sheik does not proof make, there were probably thousands of design ideas that were brought up for Brawl for every character that ever had a chance, and hey, don't AT's need styles too?

That and the fact that in TP, I'm sure that they had plans for having a TP style Sheik, but the thing was it didn't get in the final game and the fact that some TP Sheik stuff exists doesn't surprise me. It's just that Sheik won't be in Brawl for the same reason he/she/it/potato wasn't in TP. Direction.

3.
Ouch, what a blow to the Stafy fans with the decomfirmation. Sakurai didn't put it softly at all "Why is Stafy here?" making him a weak AT? Ouch.

 

[Dark Sonic]

About Tak, I'm not suggesting they give him an unoriginal moveset as he could probably do alot with the Japanese swordfighting style. What I am suggesting is that they might make him a speedy, comboable fighter so as to appeal to the former Marth players.

Or you could just bring Marth to appeal to the former Marth players.

There is a difference between what is likely and what I think will happen. Maybe characters that been revealed thus far have seemed like pretty insane and unlikely additions. And, personally, the only roster predictions I find completely unbelievable are the ones devoid of any surpises. And seeing Tak and Miciah make the cut over Marth would definitely qualify as a surpsise.

You see, to me, when someone says something is likely to happen, I assume that they expect it to happen (considering that's what likely to happen means anyway). And you seriously would throw out Marth for the sake of "suprise"? The inclusion of Takamaru would be a suprise, but the exclusion of Marth would just be a giant middle finger. Taking a unique and very popular star of a series out and replacing him with a WTF character is not a suprise, it's a very unpleasant shock. Considering that Marth has more fans than either of those characters, you'd be displeasing many more people than you would be pleasing, which doesn't seem like a smart idea. Micaiah should not even be considered in the same league as Marth, yet you still think that uniqueness should over rule every other aspect that a character has. And Marth is a unique melee character himself.

Thanks for the compliment Brawler, but I think the Marth Defense Force would disagree...

No I still think it's a pretty good list. That just seems to be one major and irrational flaw to me (along the lines of when you took Sonic off of your list.)

 

[Devastlian]

I agree that Vaati is a contender, but I'm not sure that he would make a better choice than Midna. Minish Cap rocks and the Four Sword games.... exist, but ten years from now I think Twilight Princess will still be rememebered as one of the greatest games in both the Zelda series and gaming in general. For that, (and Midna's incredible uniqueness) I give her the edge.

Well, I dunno how good a prediction that might be. OoT's tenth anniversary is coming up next year and I dunno how people are going to describe TP, whether it be a worthy successor or off-shoot number three. For all we know, the next Zelda game, whenever it'll come out, could blow us away more than TP blew you away (which I'm positive they're striving for). Then again, the popularity of a secondary or game/sub-series exclusive character in SSBB could influence a future appearance happening (c'mon Takamaru cameo in the new Zelda).

And I think people throw around the word "unique" too much. The only characters I see as unique are the PT's, IC's, and Z/S's...otherwise most characters just seem to be like Diddy or Dedede and, while having new and trademark attacks, really don't bring much besides new twists and combinations of old archetypes. That's not to say I'm not looking forward to every character but each character is really as unique as the developers make them. The three Zelda characters in question seem to be standard fighters for the most part. Midna'd be a small, light character with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to her hair and maybe some projectiles; Skull Kid'd be a small-average sized character with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to his mask's tentacles and maybe some projectiles; Vaati'd be an average sized fighter with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to maybe a sword or partial transformation and some projectiles. Give Midna Wolf Link and she runs faster and jumps worse and might have a higher range floor for her short ranged attacks and they'd probably be stronger. Essentially they'd be like weapon fighters but without the disjointed hitbox. Eh...hasn't really been done but they could make them unique if they wanted to. Just like with Waluigi.

3.
Ouch, what a blow to the Stafy fans with the decomfirmation. Sakurai didn't put it softly at all "Why is Stafy here?" making him a weak AT? Ouch.

This could just be keeping Stafy in character. He could be pretty weak to begin with and clutzy and whatever.

 

[courte]

interesting... can you direct me to the anti-pacman or pro-ness thread??

 

[Shadowplusle]

That was an amazing list that you put there wiseguy. You gave jigglypuff some credibility, though not much, but its good enough. it does sadden me that micaiah isnt on your main list but on the back up one. But oh well. I give you some major props on your list and i see that you lowered the count to 36 but 40 movesets. I aso realized that no animal crossing or Ds represntative is on there. that was sad too. Let's jsut hope that there are more than 40 chatacters in the actual game that would be great. Well thanks again Wiseguy. you're good.


P.s i liked the comment that you made under mewtwo. it made me die laughing.

~Shadow plusle