Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Phaazoid]

well you put some time into it, and it's the thought that counts.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

well you put some time into it, and it's the thought that counts.

thank you
btw i only did use the jumps because in sonic while he is jumping anything he touches gets damaged. i just took that into mind

 

[Chibirobo]

I hope Sheik isn't playable so people will actually use Zelda. I'm hoping Sheik is a final Smash or AT and that's it.

 

[RBinator]

I hope Sheik isn't playable so people will actually use Zelda. I'm hoping Sheik is a final Smash or AT and that's it.

So (going by Melee character stats), how does taking away an overpowered character make people want to play as an underpowered one, especially when they can switch between each other and otherwise fight very different from each other?

They simply couldn't make Zelda more powerful and Sheik weaker, like taking away most of the finishers? What about them having different rooster slots (along with far greater balance between them two) if Sakurai wanted to please the Zelda purists who are unwilling to let go their disbelief? As much as I hate to use "what if", if we take Melee and remove Sheik, Zelda would likely just be overlooked even more without an overpowered form to transform into and just be seen even more as an underpowered character.

 

[Wiseguy]

Hang on a second Wiseguy! Why are we automatically assuming that if Shiek is in, it's as a Zelda transformation? For all we know, she could be a separate character or an AT.

That's a fair point, but I somehow doubt that a character who appeared in a single Zelda game is worthy of his/her/potatoe's own slot on the character select screen. Besides, Zelda's moveset looks to be unchanged - so I suspect Sheik will return as a transfromation or not in a playable form (I hope for the later).

But that's if she IS in. I for one do not think that this latest interview has confirmed Shiek at all. On contrary, it's simply raised her and Ganondorf's chances. After all, if this interview is real (and it seems to me to be genuine), we now know that a Shiek and Ganondorf model was created for Brawl. What we don't know is for what purpose those character models are for. While everybody seems to agree Ganondorf is a shoe-in, Shiek's fate is less certain. However, you must see that now, much as you dislike the character, her chances have increased.

I ADMIT NOTHING!!!!

Okay, I'll grant you that Sheik's chances have increased with this interview. (Though by how much is debatable.)

I have this weird feeling that Aonuma may have misspoke. He may have MEANT Zelda, but said Sheik without realizing it. Or, perhaps the translator was the one who made a mistake. Maybe that sounds like a stretch, but I just can't imagine Sheik as a playable character.

And before you throw the "Sakurai seems to be only using material from Twilight Princess, so Shiek must be out" argument at me, that's not true at all. Sakurai IS using some material from OoT as well, specifically the OoT remix, and that suggests to me we're also going to get a stage based on OoT as well: that music does not fit the Bridge of Eldin well at all IMO. Since Sakurai is clearly NOT just using material from TP for the Zelda franchise, this also means that Shiek could still return, as a playable representative of Ocarina of Time, just as how Link & Zelda (and we assume Ganondorf) will represent Twilight Princess due to their designs. However, my personal opinion is that if she does return, it'll be as a hidden character, separate from Zelda entirely, and she may get a much-needed revamp.

Obviously there COULD be an OoT themed stage to match the (awesome) OoT remix, or it could be a Hyrule Temple-esque stage that is not specific to any game. SO yeah, it is POSSIBLE - but there are just so many more worthy Zelda characters that I highly doubt that Sheik will be playable.

And finally, why so much hate towards Shiek, Wiseguy? Yes, she's overpowered, and yes, she's extremely cheap in the wrong hands, but hard as it may be to believe there are Shiek players who are pretty darn good without being cheap or relying too much on her overpowering traits. She's by no means my favourite character in Melee either, and I hardly ever use her myself, but your blind hatred of her is starting to worry me. Are you seriously telling me that if Shiek returns as a separate playable character in Brawl, is redesigned and gets her moves toned down a bit, you still won't touch her with a 10ft bargepole just because she was so overpowered in Melee? Look at Kirby and Ness. Many thought they were overpowered in SSB64, and lo and behold, Sakurai toned them down (although he did so too much, making them too weaker than before). I predict that the same thing will happen in Brawl to Fox, Marth and Shiek (if the latter 2 are in).

Oh, and BTW, are you going to update Peach's profile now that yesterday's update confirmed her? Or are you going to wait until Monday, when we'll probably get her bio anyway?

Let me explain. In my neck of the woods there are a disproportionate number of Sheik players. I've been to tournaments where 50% of players played as Sheik. Most of these players are very skilled, but rather than learn to master more difficult characters like Fox or Falco (or lower tier characters that they like) - they simply pick up Sheik for the tourneys and spam their way to victory. Most of these guys freely admit that they hate the character, but play as Sheik anyway becasue it's the easiest high tier character to master and compete with in high level tournament play.

For this reason, I have a permanent bias against Sheik. My hatred for the character burns with the intensity of a thousand suns, and don't want the abomination to appear in any game ever again. It's not logical or reasonable, but it's how I feel. No disrespect to Sheik fans, but I just REALLY hate the character. That's all.

As for Peach, yeah I think I'll wait for the official update (which I suspect will be anyday now). But if Peach is a no-show this week, I'll update her profile with the pic from the Subspace Emisary.

Man, you've got too much faith in the whole Zelda timeline. Come on people, am I the only one who sees the Zelda franchise as a series of the same characters in different stories? It's why TP Zelda can use Oot magic and not break a sweat. Zelda isn't Final Fantasy, the characters repeat in more than just name alone.
Besides, we don't know for sure if they truly ARE wholly (and only) TP inpired characters yet. When Link is seen useing the gale boomerang, or Ganondorf is seen with a glowing scar in his chest, THEN we'll know for sure, and not a moment before.

What can I say? I'm too huge of a Zelda nerd to dismiss the timeline. Aonuma himself has spoken repeatedly on the links between OoT and WW, and surely you'll admit that some games (OoT and MM for example) have a chronological order.

Zelda's OoT inspired magic attacks are based on the 3 Goddesses (a constant in the series) so I don't see it as out of place. TP Zelda Transforming into Sheik (a character WHO NEVER EVEN EXISTED in the Twilight Princess timeline) would make many Zelda fans cringe.

Almost as funny as seeing Midna as an AT or Sheik as a returning character, I'm sure. Ok, well, maybe not quite as funny, but pretty close.

I'll grant you that Midna as an AT is possible, but only if a 5th Zelda character can't be included. Sheik a retuening character would be as hilarious as a kick in the teeth.

I know. Did you see those things Metaknight was fighting? Squids in centurion helmets dual-wielding swords! What's up with THAT?!

On a related note, is it just me or are these black Eyeball enemies from Kid Icarus:

Assuming that Ike and Marth fight similarly at all, which brings me to...

You're right of course. But we should also hold off on determining how similar Ike's moveset is to Marth's until we have more than still screenshots to go off of, as long as we're holding off on judgment.
But you can tell a fair amount about someone by looking at them.
For example: Marth's center of gravity is his hips. This allows his shoulders (and thus his sword arm) to get just a little bit farther from himself than normal, which helps him in his tipper-centric moveset. Of course, it also makes him look like a pansy; weight centered in the hips is very feminine. Marth moves like a girl.
Now, I haven't seen Ike move, no, but just look at the stills of him. His center of gravity seems to be his shoulders (more like Link), which is the more masculine way to hold yourself. It also would theoretically allow some significantly more powerful blows.

None of this means anything until we get to see some moveset, but it is food for thought.

Interesting. But I still think that Ike doesn't have to be a carbon copy of Marth to be his replacement. He just has to be similar enough is his appearance, stats and moveset so that Marth players don't feel completely betrayed.

But yeah. We'll have to wait for more in fo before the final verdict can be given.

Man, I've been pulling for co-op single player (even though it sounds like an oxymoron) since day one. What's cooler than Ganondorf saving the world? Ganondorf and RIDLEY saving the world, that's what.

QFT

Wheres a source for that statement? Or is it just one of your crazy predictions?

Nintendo Power lists Bonk's Adventure as the second best selling Turbographix console to date. I calso rememeber hearing on one of the 1up Yours poscasts on 1up.com that it was the best selling VC game last holiday season.

Bonk for brawl XD

And if Sheik is a PC i will wear a Fabio sig for a month.

Dude, you rock!

Sheik has to appear in this game in some form, literally. If they cut her from playable, then they'll definitely have her around as AT or plain trophy, to represent characters past. I don't think that article really means much, to be honest: they'll need updated art for Sheik whether she appears as AT or playable.

If she's playable, I still think chances are high she'll be seperate. Maybe she'll even be an entirely different, fabricated character entirely. Impa in her glory days, perhaps. Or a random, backflipping Sheikah. Or just Sheik, but by herself for some reason.

(If we're going to start using FF as a comparison point, I'd like to point out that Zelda from game to game is a lot like Cid from FF to FF. Visually, there may be a few more similarities, but the major points are the same for both. Airship mechanic game to game, fixes/gives you vehicles. Princess game to game, holds triforce of wisdom ends up helping you with the last boss. If they didn't want to represent a specific Cid, they'd have to just make up a unique one that represents 'Cid' in general. If they wanted to represent a tower-bound, quiet Zelda and not, say, a loudmouthed, hardassed pirate Zelda, then they should've done the same: made a more amalgamated design.)

I suppose Sheik could very well be an Assist trophy, but for the record that would not meet the requirements of our bet SamusRules93. Either Sheik is a playabel character, or she isn't.

It's really unsettling to me that people would consider Ike a Marth replacement. Sure they could give Ike similar moves, but what about Marth's style. Half of Marth's style is actually derived from his feminene appearance. His lack of muscles and smooth face shows simbolizes how he was well taken care of and didn't need to really train his muscles for anything. Instead he would focus on his studies. This is the concept of an elegant swordsman. He didn't need to learn how to fight, but he was interested in the weapon and learning it was just a hoby. He didn't realize he would need it for anything until much later.

That feminene look also supports one much more important aspect of the elegant swordsman. It shows that he doesn't really enjoy killing to any extent. He kill to test his own strenght (like the Black Knight), he doesn't want to mow through the enemy to get to their leader (like Ike), so he uses what he's learned (and he had plenty of time for that during his childhood) in order to avoid major conflicts.

So on apperance alone we already have a major difference in what their mentalities are and thus, their styles.

Oister Meister pointed out that Marth's center of gravity is at his hips. I personally believe that having a low center of gravity is an efficient way for a swordsman to fight (I bet Marth agrees. Lol) Marth obviously doesn't care about the enemy's oppinion of him so why does it matter how he looks when he's fighting. The only morals he's bound by is his own (which, since he's a noble, he obviously has quite a few. Most however are not image based.) He's fighting in the most efficient way possible as it allows him to take full advantage of his sword's reach (the most important advantage that a sword gives you.) He also moves his sword in very large arcs. This is to help him build momentum do to his lack of muscle. With a wider arc he can accelerate the sword more slowly and thus use less effort on the swing of the sword itself.

I personally think that style makes him badass. He doesn't have to look manly in apperance or in his words, because he will let his sword do the talking. The elegant swordsman's additutde,IMO, is "I can kill you if neccesary, but I'd rather not stain my sword with your blood." To me, that's really cool.
Examples of Feminene badass swordsmen.

Sesshomaru
http://naraku5.tripod.com/sitebuilde...sshomaru10.jpg

Sasuke
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...uto343_152.jpg

Byakuya
http://www.absoluteanime.com/bleach/byakuya.jpg.

Riku
http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/47/47485shnkk5ozyy.jpg

Youko had an interesting idea on the Show Me Your News podcast. He theorized that Ike was was a replacement for both Marth and Roy - meaning that he charactersistcs of both fighters.

As for girly swordfighters, I wouldn'y worry. Sakurai has a new one lined up.

Considering that A) Marth is the first Fire Emblem Lord and B) The Fire Emblem icon is Marth's falchion, I highly doubt that he'll be replaced.

A) Marth is the first FE lord IN JAPAN. The rest of the world (where the majority of FE fans resode) is still waiting for him to appear in a FE game.

B) The Fire Emblem icon might be the same shape as Marth's sword, but that's hardly confirmation that Marth will return. Most likely, it's just a nonspecific sword designed to symbolize the series.

Thread low. must bump.

Are lurkers aloud to bump?

Yes they are!

I never said Shiek was basically confirmed as a PC. She's practically in Brawl [she's either a trophy and/or a PC or a AT], since GI is the #1 most subscribed gaming magazine by a huge margin, and Nintendo has yet to disprove it, and they would if a major gaming media outlet said such things. G'dorf is all but guarenteed, and I never said you said that. Aww no bets....

Well at least I'll probably get to see Samusrules with a WW Link siggy [c'mon Wisey, the suspense is killing me!], get that one guy to get me a free copy of Brawl when Lucario's confirmed [I'm assuming he's probably in Brawl], etc. Maybe see Wiseguy in a Shiek sig, along with Numa Dude with a Midna siggy...lol!

Anyways fellow betters, I say we make the loser of the bet post their sig evry post [unless the thread they posts on bans sigs], and if they miss one post, that's a extra day they need the sig [unless they edit it ASAP]. Agreed=???

And I smell Peach, Capt. Falcon, and Diddy Kong in the wind. Thinking of Diddy Kong makes me excited! Too bad I'm gonna be gone most of this weeks, and miss the next 4 updates. Aww well, I'll be back to see them on on Saturday or Sunday!

- ~His Knightlyness Himself~ Johnknight1!

I think I'll keep you in suspence and wait until we know who won the bet before showing SR's WW sig.

I agree to the terms. Every post must contain the sig, unless the thread's rules demand otherwise.

Later JK. Hopefully, this whole Sheik bussiness will be sorted out when you return.

if ww link is in in brawl i suspect vaati to be in either as a pc or at.only because vaati has only appeared in cel shaded link games(eg minish cap)vaati for me wouldnt be that bad but i prefer skull kid as a pc only because he has more of a personality.

also if we get skull kid we may get a young link who can change into the different masks from mm with oni link being final smash(possible)

Keep in mind, Windwaker Link and Minish Cap Link are different individuals, though they sure look alike.

I agree that Skull Kid would own as a playable character, but sadly I suspect that either Midna or Tingle will squash his chances.

While I have been thinking about it for some time now, I think there's one main reason why many of these arguments are not actually getting anywhere, bias. I mean seriously, what's the point of going through a bunch of supporting arguments if the main argument itself is based purely on bias? No amount of counter arguments will get through supporting arguments if bias can be used to back up the main argument. Thus, some characters are likely to have arguments used against them while others might not get the same treatment.

Come on Wiseguy, for making predictions, while you do have supporting arguments thrown in, some of them (mainly some characters not returning) are ultimately grounded so heavily in personal bias that I think it's pointless even debunking the supporting arguments in the first place. It's like you have blind rage here which seems to overshadow most supporting arguments.

On the other hand, today's update should be even more minor proof that we don't have all the updates figured out. Peach's update could be tomorrow or it could be who knows when. Sakurai sure seems to love his mind games.

Beleive it or not, I have been known to change my opinion becuase of a really strong argument. There was a time the Midna's Twili form was on my list instead of Minda/Wolf tag team - then Ferro changed my mind. Wolf Oddonel and Mewtwo are also characters that I included afterwards, partially becuase people had strong arguments for their inclusion.

Yes, I'm human so I have biases. But I don't think my "blind rage" overshadows a strong argument.










Expect where Sheik is concerned. CURSE YOU SHEIK!!!!!!!

 

[Bandit Bros.]

About Midna, why show her true form, it'll cause spoilers for people who never got or beat the game. Never know. Also she's been in her true form for only about 3 minutes...
While in her imp form through the whole game.

 

[Wiseguy]

About Midna, why show her true form, it'll cause spoilers for people who never got or beat the game. Never know. Also she's been in her true form for only about 3 minutes...
While in her imp form through the whole game.

Well, Twili Midna was on the cover of the game manual. A year ago. So, I doubt spoilers will be an issue.

Still, Imp Midna (with or without Wolf Link) is probably most likely, I'll grant you that.

 

[Zubyyyy]

Midna is probably gonig to be in. What are some Third-Party chances like Rayman? Rayman Arena, Raving Rabbids 1 +2, along with Nintendo and Ubisoft rumors can lead to guessing. Plus his moveset would be awesome. I could create it right now and I am sure iw ould be pretty sweet.

 

[Wiseguy]

Midna is probably gonig to be in. What are some Third-Party chances like Rayman? Rayman Arena, Raving Rabbids 1 +2, along with Nintendo and Ubisoft rumors can lead to guessing. Plus his moveset would be awesome. I could create it right now and I am sure iw ould be pretty sweet.

Rayman, eh? I suppose he might stand a chance if Ubisoft begged Nintendo to include him. I'm a little skeptical, though, becuase I don't think he's very popular in Japan.

 

[Zubyyyy]

Understood. I am just listing people from my Top 5 thread list. What about Randi from the Secret of Mana? the Mana series is huge in both the Japan and the U.S. and Randi (the nameless hero which you name in the U.S. version) is the protagonist from the best one of the series.

 

[Legolastom]

Id have to say the two most likely are Sonic (Obviously) and Mega man (Obviously) but who knows maybe Sakurai is good friends with the maker of Pong (If he is still alive).

And i am serious about that Fabio sig...

BTW whats is your favorite part of the time line wise guy? Before OOT the "Link go's back to his time" route or the "Future after Link has left" way? i prefer the "Future after Link has left way" because of Wind waker.

 

[Masque]

What can I say? I'm too huge of a Zelda nerd to dismiss the timeline. Aonuma himself has spoken repeatedly on the links between OoT and WW, and surely you'll admit that some games (OoT and MM for example) have a chronological order.

Zelda's OoT inspired magic attacks are based on the 3 Goddesses (a constant in the series) so I don't see it as out of place. TP Zelda Transforming into Sheik (a character WHO NEVER EVEN EXISTED in the Twilight Princess timeline) would make many Zelda fans cringe.

--------------------------------------------

I'll grant you that Midna as an AT is possible, but only if a 5th Zelda character can't be included. Sheik a retuening character would be as hilarious as a kick in the teeth.

--------------------------------------------

On a related note, is it just me or are these black Eyeball enemies from Kid Icarus:

I will vouch for your theory that many a Zelda fan will double over should Sheik be included as a transformation for TP Zelda. I wouldn't object to Sheik being included as a separate character; that even raises the chances of Sheik being nerfed and Zelda left untouched, if not improved.

Midna alone is a possible AT, albeit an iffy one. Midna and Wolf Link, however, is very likely for a PC. Even Midna alone has a good chance. Expect to see her on the roster in some form.

As for the Kid Icarus enemy, I'm going to have to disagree. The closest they come to the KI realm is Tros, but Tros has four spikes and a cross upon its body. I'm going to wager that any and all Subspace Emissary enemies will be original ones.

 

[Inkslinger]

LOL @ Aunoma saying Sheik instead of Zelda without realizing it, that's not the case at all, he won't make such dumb mistake regarding characters he design and they did ask him about the 2 anyway. It will pure stupidty coming from a professional to do such mistake.

What one could argue is that the new design of sheik may be used for other purposes (trophy, at) rather than a playable character.

 

[Phaazoid]

Understood. I am just listing people from my Top 5 thread list. What about Randi from the Secret of Mana? the Mana series is huge in both the Japan and the U.S. and Randi (the nameless hero which you name in the U.S. version) is the protagonist from the best one of the series.

i feel that the only third party characters with chances are sonic, megaman, and geno. Sonic is already confimred if nintendo gets permission, megaman and geno tied for second on the polls.
as much as i would like characters like bomberman, rayman, and others (bonk), they sadly have no chance.

 

[Copperpot]

I find it somewhat strange that he submitted the designs for Sheik and Ganondorf, but nowhere have I seen any inclination that he did the same for Link and Zelda. Is it possible that Link and Zelda borrow their designs from Twilight Princess, where Ganondorf is taking on a new (or altered) appearance?

It also raises some speculation in regards to why they're taking more extensive action for Ganondorf. With Sheik, it is understandable; her design hasn't been updated in seven years. But Ganondorf? He was just in Twilight Princess, not nearly aged enough to warrant a complete character overhaul (or any changes at all, for that matter). I'm getting a vibe that says Ganondorf is going to be different than what we expect.

But hey, I've been wrong before . . .

 

[Wiseguy]

Understood. I am just listing people from my Top 5 thread list. What about Randi from the Secret of Mana? the Mana series is huge in both the Japan and the U.S. and Randi (the nameless hero which you name in the U.S. version) is the protagonist from the best one of the series.

I'm not at all familiar with the Mana series, so I can't really speak to that. Personally, I'd prefer a Square rep from one of the Dragon Quest games (though that isn't terribly likely...)

Id have to say the two most likely are Sonic (Obviously) and Mega man (Obviously) but who knows maybe Sakurai is good friends with the maker of Pong (If he is still alive).

And i am serious about that Fabio sig...

BTW whats is your favorite part of the time line wise guy? Before OOT the "Link go's back to his time" route or the "Future after Link has left" way? i prefer the "Future after Link has left way" because of Wind waker.

My favorite has to be the OoT>MM>TP timeline, though I love Windwaker as well.

I will vouch for your theory that many a Zelda fan will double over should Sheik be included as a transformation for TP Zelda. I wouldn't object to Sheik being included as a separate character; that even raises the chances of Sheik being nerfed and Zelda left untouched, if not improved.

Midna alone is a possible AT, albeit an iffy one. Midna and Wolf Link, however, is very likely for a PC. Even Midna alone has a good chance. Expect to see her on the roster in some form.

As for the Kid Icarus enemy, I'm going to have to disagree. The closest they come to the KI realm is Tros, but Tros has four spikes and a cross upon its body. I'm going to wager that any and all Subspace Emissary enemies will be original ones.

Perhaps you're right about the enemies. They just kinda reminded me of the flocks of Monoeyes, but I guess they have tentacles.

LOL @ Aunoma saying Sheik instead of Zelda without realizing it, that's not the case at all, he won't make such dumb mistake regarding characters he design and they did ask him about the 2 anyway. It will pure stupidty coming from a professional to do such mistake.

What one could argue is that the new design of sheik may be used for other purposes (trophy, at) rather than a playable character.

I know it's highly unlikely that someone like Auoma would make such an obvious blunder. But stranger things have happened. It's also possible that the translator made a goof.

I find it somewhat strange that he submitted the designs for Sheik and Ganondorf, but nowhere have I seen any inclination that he did the same for Link and Zelda. Is it possible that Link and Zelda borrow their designs from Twilight Princess, where Ganondorf is taking on a new (or altered) appearance?

It also raises some speculation in regards to why they're taking more extensive action in regards to Ganondorf. With Sheik, it is understandable; her design hasn't been updated in seven years. But Ganondorf? He was just in Twilight Princess, not nearly long ago to warrant a complete character overhaul (or any changes at all, for that matter). I'm getting a vibe that says Ganondorf is going to be different than what we expect.

But hey, I've been wrong before . . .

In the interview, he refered to the character designs of Link, Sheik and Ganondorf so I'd say we'll still see Ganondorf's TP form.

 

[Copperpot]

Ah, I have yet to read the article (this firewall at work prevents me from doing so), so it seems that Link may not have been mentioned previously with the understanding that he is already confirmed (and doing so would then be unnecessary).

Still, the absense of Zelda on there is a bit odd, to say the least. I mean, why Sheik and not Zelda?

 

[Legolastom]

I guess it's just referring to their moves and such i mean its not like link will have a claw shot in Brawl (Note Claw shot = RUBBISH!) he will have a hook shot so obviously they need to make a TP version of that (Which would take years) but its most probably the little things... because Brawl is a Wii game not a Game cube game (Unlike the TP character models).

Or maybe they are making Tingle XD : /

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I liked the clawshot D:

I think Link was mentioned in the article, though admittedly it can't have taken long to decide to opt for Link's TP design and then lighten his hair a bit (as opposed to darkening Zelda's).

Still, with Link and Zelda in their TP form it's hard to imagine Ganondorf with anything but his own TP self. All I can really see is them making Ganondorf slightly different from his TP look in some ways (remove the scar maybe?), and probably give him a more fitting sword for his personality (if they do decide to make him go the way of the swordsman, I'm not entirely convinced that they will). I can't imagine them diverting from the TP form that drastically, though I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Devastlian]

I'm going to wager that any and all Subspace Emissary enemies will be original ones.

Except the ones that aren't, amirite?

But anyway, Samus looks so awesome in the screenshots. I sure hope she runs the same. <3 Also, I wanna see more Kirby stuff and finally some MOTHER stuff...so hop to that, Mr. Sakurai. :/ :\

But ya, Subspace Emissary looks awesome.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I am somewhat surprised we have FE revealed before all the SSB franchises were. We really do need an Mother related update soon, if just to stop all this Ness being replaced by Lucas speculation.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

@ wiseguy

since this thread has morphed into an all out prediction discussion in every aspect of brawl

can you add a "how characters will fit in subspace emissary" zone

and do you think all characters in the plot will be an assist trophy or playable becaues if not that is yet another way to add runner ups (my guess is paletuna will only be in cut scenes)

 

[Chibirobo]

@ wiseguy

since this thread has morphed into an all out prediction discussion in every aspect of brawl

can you add a "how characters will fit in subspace emissary" zone

and do you think all characters in the plot will be an assist trophy or playable becaues if not that is yet another way to add runner ups (my guess is paletuna will only be in cut scenes)

I agrre, but I think Palutena might be his Final Smash.

 

[SynikaL]

This is a bad azz thread. Good ish, Wiseguy.


-Kimosabae

 

[Arteen]

I've decided to come up with a possible moveset for Isaac, full of psynergy moves from the game. It might be a bit gimmicky though.

===Newcomer: Isaac===

Isaac is the lead character from Camelot's Golden Sun series, "arguably be one of the best 2D-based Japanese RPGs created for any system. And yes, that includes Final Fantasy" (from IGN's review of the first game).

Let me preface with something on djinn in Golden Sun's battle system.
Djinn has three statuses during battle: set, standby, recover. When set, the djinni increases the character's stats, and the player is able to use its unique attack. After using it for an attack, it is set to standby. The character's stats go down, but the player is now able to use a summon, depending on how many djinn there are also on standby, and what elements they are. After summoning, the djinn are set to recover, and are unuseable for a certain number of turns. For example, if I summoned Judgment, which requires 4 djinn, one would take one 1 turn to recover, the next would take 2 turns, the third 3 turns, and the last 4 turns.

My idea is to implement that into Brawl in a way that would fit. Isaac would have four Venus djinn floating around him in the game, and they would slightly increase his speed and the power of his regular A moves, but primarily his smashes. Djinn can either be set or in recovery. When set, they float around Isaac and give him a slight stat boost. They can also increase the power of his final smash. For recovery, if Isaac used a final smash or a smash attack, one of djinn is put into recover mode and appears as a weakly glowing yellow sphere (to symbolize that it's recovering).

The more djinn Isaac has recovering at a time, the weaker and slower he is. Each djinni takes 4 seconds to recover. If a djinni is placed into recover and other djinn are already recovering, its recovery time becomes the recovery time for the last djinni in recovery mode plus 4 seconds. This would resemble the recovery system in the game after a summon, so they don't all recover right away. This becomes a disadvantage for Isaac as he can't spam smash attacks with impunity.

At full strengh, Isaac's neutral A, tilt A, dash A, and arial A moves are 1.5x as strong as they are when he has no djinn set, and he is 1.5x as fast. His smash moves are 2x as strong as they are when he has no djinn set.

Of course, you could remove the djinn element and still have a viable moveset.

===Stats (out of 10)===
Height: 5
Weight: 4
Attack Power: 3 to 7
Grab Range: 4
Running Speed: 4 to 6
Jump: 4
Falling Speed: 4
Traction: 6

===Neutral A===
A:
Isaac performs an angled, downward slash (as if he were writing 'X' in front of him). Low damage.

AA:
Isaac follows up with an angled, downward slash from the opposite direction (to finish the 'X'). Low damage.

AAA:
Isaac follows up by casting Push from his free hand. Low damage and knockback.
It would look something like: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/taiyo_psynergyart.jpg

Dash A:
Isaac runs at his opponent and performs a slightly angled downward horizontal swipe with low range. Low damage, decent knockback.

===Tilt A===
F-tilt:
Isaac performs a quick downward strike. Mediocre damage, slight stun, no knockback.

D-tilt:
Isaac thrusts his sword low to the ground. Mediocre damage, slight stun, small knockback.

U-tilt:
Isaac performs an overhead sweep with his sword. Mediocre damage, slight stun, some knockback.

===Smash A===
His smash attacks send one of his djinn into recover each use. If he uses them when he has all his djinni recovering, his attacks are significantly weaker.

F-smash:
With at least one djinni set: A djinni assumes its ethereal form and envelops Isaac's sword in an aura as he performs a sweeping horizontal strike with his it. The aura gives the sword essentially a slightly larger width and length, making it stronger and giving it more range. As an effect, the ground under the sword rumbles as Isaac swipes it, with an effect similar to energy balls in in anime when they graze the ground and separate it, except on a much smaller scale. Medium damage, medium knockback.
With no djinn: There is no aura or rumbling ground, resulting in lower damage and knockback.

D-smash:
With at least one djinn set.
A djinni assumes its ethereal form and envelops Isaac's swordless hand and Isaac opens his palm towards the ground and casts Spire. Stalagmites erupt out on either side of Isaac, and taper off after two swordlengths. The stalagmites do mediocre damage with small knockback and a slight stun.
With no djinn:
The stalagmites are slightly smaller, taper off sooner, and do less damage.

U-smash:
With at least one djinni set: A djinni assumes its ethereal form and envelops Isaac's sword in an aura as he lunges his sword vertically up. The aura gives the sword essentially a slightly larger width and length, making it stronger and giving it more range. As an effect, similar to Gaia in the game, tiny rocks, stones, and Venus energy are unearthed and flung into the air around Isaac as he lunges the sword. This slightly injures and stuns any opponent standing very close to Isaac.
With no djinn: There is no aura or rumbling ground, resulting in lower damage and knockback, and no damage or stun near Isaac.

===Arial A===
N-air:
Isaac performs a neutral arial kick similar to many other characters' neutral air attacks. Low damage, mediocre knockback.

F-air:
Isaac swipes his sword vertically in front of him, starting 45 degrees above to 45 degrees below the horizontal. Mediocre damage, low knockback.

D-air:
Isaac lifts up his legs and his swordless hand glows with energy, and after a half-second delay, he then he thrusts that hand down to cast Pound. It is a low damage meteor smash.

U-air:
Isaac thrusts his sword vertically up, for medium damage and mediocre knockback.

B-air:
Isaac quickly regrips his sword so he's holding it backwards and thrusts it backwards, then regrips it properly again. It does medium damage and medium knockback.


===B Moves===
B-neutral:
Isaac casts Ragnarok. He swipes angled downward in unison with an ethereal glowing red sword. Small knockback with a small stun an medium damage. It would take about a second overall with a short delay between allowed uses.
It would look like: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/1078007828_gs_lost3.jpg?t=1186084978 except that the angle of the sword would be shallower and the sword itself would be a little smaller.

B-forward:
Isaac uses Hover. It's essentially a more versatile wavedash. In the air, the player can quickly float staight horizontally either forwards or backwards a decent distance. The player is able to use it nearly instantly after jumping from the ground, allowing it to behave like a longer-length wavedash. On the ground, he rapidly slides forward a distance. Players can use A moves during it or escape it with a B move. It can be done once in the air, and the player isn't disabled after using it (unlike after using a B-up move), allowing the player to follow it up with B-up for help with recovering. If the player tilts backwards or forwards for a moment during the hover without
attacking, Isaac will turn that way.

B-down:
Isaac casts Growth. Thorny vines launch out in front of him, undulating in and out of the ground and kicking up dirt. The vines go up to 7 sword-lengths in distance and stop when reaching an edge. The move does nothing in the air. The vines do mediocre damage and no knockback, but they momentarily stun.

B-up:
Isaac's Sol Blade let's out a howl! Megiddo! Isaac's sword glows as he leaps up into the air with his sword out above him. If he doesn't hit anyone by the time he reaches the top of his jump, Isaac's sword loses its glow, and he lowers his sword while he falls, still going slowly forward initially due to momentum. If he does intercept someone, a glowing molten sphere of flame quickly forms and grows at the tip of his sword as he swipes it down on his opponent. While the flames engulf his enemy, his swipe gives him some extra momentum and he finishes his leap upward, then falls. The leap is relatively slow and somewhat parabolic, and can be angled slightly.

===Throws===
Grab:
Isaac reaches out with one arm to grab his opponent. He has a low reach.

Jab:
Isaac knees his opponent.

Forward:
Isaac uses Force with his swordless hand to launch the opponent forward in an arc. Medium knockback, mediocre damage.
It would look something like:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/taiyo_battle.jpg

Down:
Isaac throws his opponent down in front of him and uses Tremor to shake the ground below him, unearthing dirt and rocks. His opponent gets injured by the move and is knocked back. It does mediocre damage with low knockback.

Up:
Isaac opens his palms and uses a lifting motion to cast Lift on his opponent. Opponent accelerates upwards. If the enemy isn't at a very high % or if he hits a solid ceiling, he'll quickly decelerate and float helpless in the air for a short delay before falling, with almost no delay at 0% and it increase steadily in length to about 40 frames at 100%. It has low knockback and damage, but lift always goes a minimum of twice Isaac's height until it goes beyond that at around 50%.
It would look something like: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/taiyo_robinart.jpg

Back:
Isaac uses Carry to swing his opponent around to the other side, then casts Burst on him, causing him to fly back in a low arc. Mediocre but quick knockback, medium damage.

===Final Smash===
Isaac has 4 djinn around him, resulting in 5 levels of final smashes. For each of his four summons, he initiates it by slamming his fist into the ground, causing it to crack, while the necessary djinn rapidly revolve around him until they dissipate and the appropriate summon appears. Consequently, Isaac must initiate his final smashes from the ground.
It looks similar to: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/taiyo_procne.jpg

Four Djinn Set:
Judgment: Judgment appears above Isaac, aims his cannon down, then launches an energy blast into the ground causing a large spherical fiery explosion on the ground with a shockwave that extends out horizontally along the ground. The blast causes large damage and knockback (similar to the Bullet Bill in Peach's Castle in Melee), and the shockwave does small damage, quick stun, and no knockback.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/SummonJudgment.jpg

Three Djinn Set:
Cybele: Thorny vines sprout up all around Isaac, causing high damage with stun and little knockback.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/SummonCybele.jpg

Two Djinn Set:
Ramses: Enemies near Isaac are stunned while Ramses rains down boulders, and ends the attack with an explosion of psynergy. Medium damage, medium knockback.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/SummonRamses.jpg

One Djinni Set:
Venus: The Venus djinni appears in a large ethereal form and strikes the ground at Isaac's feet, causing an explosion of psynergy. Causes mediocre damage, mediocre knockback.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Arteen/golden_sun/SummonVenus.jpg

No Djinn Set:
Nothing: Nothing happens. Maybe you shouldn't have spammed those smash moves so much. If the player is presented with a smash ball but no djinn, he can either fend off opponents until he recovers djinn, or he can waste it to prevent others from using it.

I don't know what to do about taunts or victory screens, but those aren't quite as important.

 

[Masque]

Except the ones that aren't, amirite?

But anyway, Samus looks so awesome in the screenshots. I sure hope she runs the same. <3 Also, I wanna see more Kirby stuff and finally some MOTHER stuff...so hop to that, Mr. Sakurai. :/ :\

But ya, Subspace Emissary looks awesome.

I hadn't considered the Hammer Bro as an enemy, just as an AT put into play by the AI or something. The Bullet Bills likewise were just stage hazards and less "enemies", or so it looked to me. Whatever. Perception differences.

It really does look to be quite interesting. If only we could now get the full trailer!

 

[OysterMeister]

It also raises some speculation in regards to why they're taking more extensive action for Ganondorf. With Sheik, it is understandable; her design hasn't been updated in seven years. But Ganondorf? He was just in Twilight Princess, not nearly aged enough to warrant a complete character overhaul (or any changes at all, for that matter). I'm getting a vibe that says Ganondorf is going to be different than what we expect.

Well, for Ganondorf it might be just to get rid of that scar, and since without it his chest armor would be missing a good focal point, that might require a small redesign.
Still, I have another theory:
See, I've seen the model used for Link in Twilight Princess. In maya, I mean. Some kind of binary rip of the Wii disc or something like that, I don't understand it, but it's pretty neat. And the thing is, Link's model doesn't look like it does in the game. His face is too angular. Eventually, I found that Link's face actually has several textures applied to it in-game, on for skin, one for expressions, and then one strange layer that sort of softens his geometry in real-time (at least this is as far as me and my friends have been able to figure it.)
Now, this might be a touch over-complex and unnecessary for Brawl, so I'd imagine that a new model of Link would have to be produced, one that could look good even without strange texture-effects.
Assuming this holds true for the other characters, it might explain why new models would have to be designed for Brawl.

@ wiseguy

since this thread has morphed into an all out prediction discussion in every aspect of brawl

can you add a "how characters will fit in subspace emissary" zone

and do you think all characters in the plot will be an assist trophy or playable becaues if not that is yet another way to add runner ups (my guess is paletuna will only be in cut scenes)

I'm not sure about that, but Sakurai seems big on recycling. I find it hard to believe that he'd ever create something just for a cutscene. I mean, even that Ridley model in the Melee opening got reused as a trophy.

Anyway, regarding SE speculation, is there anyone else out there who thinks there may be more to the single player? It seems like if SE was the only single-player adventure mode, Sakurai would have just called it Adventure Mode. Maybe there's not another side-scroller, but at the very least there's still pobably a classic mode, and maybe even some event matches.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Anyway, regarding SE speculation, is there anyone else out there who thinks there may be more to the single player? It seems like if SE was the only single-player adventure mode, Sakurai would have just called it Adventure Mode. Maybe there's not another side-scroller, but at the very least there's still pobably a classic mode, and maybe even some event matches.

Classic Mode will return, and you're right: there'll probably be other subtitles for Adventure Mode.

"Adventure Mode: Raiders of the Lost Ark"

"Return of the Adventure Mode: The Sequel"

"Adventure Mode: Metal Gear Sol!d 4"

...And so on and so on.

I don't think All-Star Mode should come back. There wasn't much point to it, and it was really boring. Event Matches, on the other hand, need to make a comeback, and they need to have at least doubled in number.

P.S. Never move in August into a house with no air conditioning (yet...I think).

P.P.S. WHY HAVEN'T YOU ALL SIGNED WISEGUY'S "BRAWL ONLINE" PETITION!? (Or should I say...BEN HICKS!!)

 

[Masque]

Toad

Height: *
Weight: **
Attack Power: ****
Grab Range: **
Running Speed: *****
Jump: *
Falling Speed: ***

Basic Attacks:
A: Double Kick
Toad nearly topples backward by using a high kick. Pressing twice results in a double kick with powerful knockback, but Toad falls on his back in the process.

F-tilt: Flail
Toad flops forward, driving his mushroom head into the opponent. Good damage and knockback.
U-tilt: Defense Mechanism
Toad crouches down and releases spores above him, much like he does when defending Peach in SSBM. While the move doesn't pack much power or knockback, the move does have high priority.
D-tilt: Sweep Kick
Toad flattens out and performs a sweep kick. Damage is average and knockback is low, but the opponent is stunned.

Dash Attack: Last Resort
Toad runs forward frantically, flailing his arms about like Luigi. Knockback is low, but the damage can rack up with consecutive hits.

Smash Attacks:
FSmash: Game-Set-SMASH
Toad pulls out his rainbow racquet from Mario Tennis 64 and delivers a powerful slice, creating a flurry of bubbles and sending the opponent backward. The longer the Smash is charged, the higher the damage and the further the knockback.
USmash: Star Hammer
Toad pulls out his hammer from Mario Party 3 and swings it in an arc over his head. Low knockback but good damage.
DSmash: Victory Dance
Toad busts out his breakdancing skillz by spinning around on his head; think his post-goal dance from Mario Strikers Charged, or just Sheik's DSmash. The damage is good, but the move truly shines if the opponent is just above Toad at the time of execution. In such a case, the opponent is sucked down into a vortex-of-sorts and struck multiple times for exceptional damage.

Aerials:
Nair: Aerial Flail
Toad extends every limb in his body with a burst of energy, looking as if he were parachuting sans parachute. This flailing movement has two hitboxes: one at Toad's feet and another at his head and fists.
Fair: Fire Meteor
Toad emulates his Skillshot from Mario Strikers Charged, Fire Meteor. He kicks the opponent, setting him or her ablaze, and sending him or her off as a fireball at a very slight downward slope with good damage.
Bair: Clobber
Toad once again whips out his star hammer and sticks it straight out behind him, twirling it briefly. The move has good knockback if it connects with the opponent as it is being shoved outward; otherwise, hammer lingers for a moment, doing less damage and offering little knockback.
Uair: Star Wave
Toad pulls a star out of his pocket and raises it high above his head--or as high as his little arms can reach. This move has low knockback but fairly high priority and a minor electric shock effect.
Dair: Head Drill
Toad dives headfirst for the ground in a drill attack. Can deliver a few consecutive hits for low damage.

Special Moves:
B : Star Toss
Toad pulls a star out of his pocket (à la Mario Party and SM64) and lobs it. A simple tap launches a star with a high, skinny arc that ends close to Toad. The longer the move is charged, the flatter the arc and the further the star will travel.

Side B: Mushroom Kart
Much like Wario, Toad can pull his own vehicle out of thin air and put it to good use. Toad can turn around with a flick of the control stick. By pressing B, Toad uses a Golden Mushroom for a huge burst of speed. The boost can be utilized more than once, but a small pause occurs between each use, preventing uber-boosts. When Toad is hit, he is ejected from the kart, and the kart slows to a halt. Only one kart can appear onstage at the same time.

Down B: Pluck
Toad takes a page from Peach's book and picks an item from the ground; however, he performs the task with almost no lag, unlike the Princess. Toad's turnips are relatively strong, but the "Sad Turnip" does not appear, nor do the Bob-ombs, Mr. Saturns, or Beam Swords. Instead, Toad can randomly pick other SMB2 vegetables (pumpkins and radishes). Likewise, Toad can also randomly pluck a few other items from the ground: Bombs (from Wario's Woods), Hearts (SMB2 ones, which restore a middling amount of health, but nothing substantial), Mushrooms, Starman, Koopa Shells, and POW Blocks. The most elusive of items, however, is the Magic Potion, which allows Toad to enter a door into Subcon and move freely about the background of the stage invisibly for a few seconds. Toad can neither give nor receive damage, but his movement is unhindered while in Subcon. A few seconds later, he will reenter through another door where his hidden movement came to an end. To compensate for the huge benefits that this move could bestow upon our favorite mushroom, Toad occasionally will dig straight into the ground for a moment, leaving him open to attack.

Up B: Super Jump
Once again, Toad recalls a special ability from SMB2. He charges up briefly, glowing, and then leaps skyward with a burst of power. The vertical leap's horizontal movement can be controlled slightly. By charging even longer, Toad begins to flash and the move's height increases substantially.

Final Smash: Party Time!
Toad's Final Smash is an homage to his work as host for so many of Mario's "exclusive" parties. Everything comes to a halt with a spotlight on our beloved retainer. Toad pulls a dice block out of his pocket and--no, wait, two--no, three! The player selects which dice block will correspond to which opponent; an opponent can also fall victim to more than one block. Toad then hits the dice block, and confetti bursts across the screen with each hit. The following comprise the effects that correspond to each randomly-selected number:
1 - Dice Block. It drops down from above the opponent's head for small damage.
2 - Poison Mushroom. The opponent takes periodic damage for a few moments until the effect wears off.
3 - Fire Flower. The opponent is blasted with flames, racking up small but continuous damage.
4 - Tanooki Suit. The suit falls onto the opponent and he or she is instantly transformed into the Tanooki statue. He or she is frozen for a few moments.
5 - Lightning, the bane of Mario Karters everywhere. Strikes the opponent for noticeable damage. He or she is also stunned temporarily from the electric shock when play resumes.
6 - Chain Chomp. This crazy creature drops from the sky and sinks its teeth into the opponent. Strong damage.
7 - Bullet Bill. The notorious projectile veers down from the sky, swirling around the opponent before finally making explosive contact, causing substantial damage and knockback.
8 - Dizzy Dial. The opponent's control scheme is completely rearranged (ex: A -> Down, Up -> B) for a few moments.
9 - Toad Stampede. Many denizens of Toad Town and a collection of other assorted Toads crash the stage and trample all opponents for heavy damage.
10 - Bazooka! Toad pulls out his infamous weapon from SMRPG and blasts the opponent into the stratosphere. Instant KO, but quite rare.

Grabs:
Toad jumps and grabs onto the opponent's chest--or at their face, etc. The idea is that Toad latches onto the opponent.

Jab: Noggin Bash
Toad smacks the opponent with his sizable noggin.

Fthrow: Rolling Toss
Toad tips the opponent over, rolls forward, and tosses him or her forward.
Uthrow: Juggle
Toad falls backward, taking the opponent with him. In the process, he pops him or her up into the air with his fists. This is Toad's only weak throw, but the small knockback is useful for juggling.
Dthrow: Frenzy Stampede
Toad pushes the opponent over and stomps on them a few times in a frenzy, each successive stomp becoming more powerful.
Bthrow: Bicycle Kick
Toad falls backward, taking the opponent with him. He then kicks him or her backward.

Taunt:
Toad giggles and holds up the V for Victory. "Yeah!"

Winning Poses:
Winning pose #1:
Toad runs around screaming in a frenzy, frantic and frightened. He trips and appears shocked. After a moment, he realizes that he is all right and smiles at the camera. "*giggle*"
Winning pose#2:
Toad speeds into sight on his Mushroom Kart after a burst of glowing speed from the Golden Mushroom. "I'm the best!"
Winning pose#3:
Toad holds up a star and basks in its radiant aura. "Ooooh..."

 

[everlasting yay]

This kid is so biased that this topic isn't even worth reading.

 

[PyrasTerran]

On the subject of Fire Emblem characters..

with the latest evidence of Ike having a decidedly different moveset as well as being considered a 'heavy' character, I personally believe Marth's chances of staying in have improved dramatically. Thoughts?

 

[Devastlian]

I don't think it changes a whole lot. The replacements don't have to fill the character archtype they're filling in for.

 

[PyrasTerran]

so you believe that Ike is the only Fire Emblem character that will appear?

 

[Shuma]

No, black Knight and Marth should be in along with Ike.

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

yeah and i think ike make sothe have chance to

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

black knight may be will have def spec

sothe may be will have speed spec or marth but i prefer sothe being a rogue

Ike The strenght spec

 

[Shuma]

I don't know who this sothe is, i just know that if Ike is in, that opens the door for the Black Knight, soooo... if BK isn't in this game, then he will be in SSB4... if there's a SSB4.

But just imagine a fight between Marth and Ike(Blue team) V.S the Black Knight(Red Team)... Awesomeness.

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

sothe:

he is a rogue in fe 9 and fe 10

he have a main in fe 10

 

[Shuma]

...

Why?

He doesn't look more important than Ike or the Black Knight... and i'm pretty sure he isn't.

 

[Phaazoid]

he isn't. today's updtae changes the possibility of bk being an ike clone, as amazing as ike's moveset is, i'm pretty sure he'll be the only one having it, and that either marth or roy will be in.

it also implies that there will be more heavy characters, increasing chances for people like dedede or black knight. or ridley.