Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Archyp Cosh]

You seem to have no picture for the Mii name. Why couldn't you just have some sort of sample Mii?

Honestly? I just forgot it when I was typing it in. I'm sure some more exotic answer could be conceived if that's just too pedestrian.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I dunno if I could assume that with Knuckle Joe as an assist on friday we'll be getting Metaknight next week or not... I hope he gets the profile soon, I'm sick of waiting for characters I know are gonna be in either way.

 

[Devastlian]

While the topic of Isaac is still raised, I'd like to point out that Nintendo solely owns the rights to the characters and music in the Golden Sun games while Nintendo and Camelot jointly own the rights to everything else. Here, towards the bottom, is where I got this. Maybe they made sure they got these rights in the case of another SSB game being made. <_<

 

[Numa Dude]

This thread is getting way to close to the bottom. I better bump it.

 

[Vali]

Erm I haven't been following this thread much, but Wiseguy, Bonk and R.O.B? Granted there's a need for a few retro characters but I think you might have overdone it this time. R.O.B was much much more of a cult gimmick than Game + Watch who was one of the first ever videogame characters and truly was a retro guy. With some much competition for retro spots (Little Mac, Balloon Fighter and Mach Rider to name a few...well...3) it's not that he's not a unique enough character, which he certainly is, it's just that he just wasn't important enough. He ain't popular enough to be retro at the end of the day.

Bonk I think you're wrong on. A) 6 third party characters is too much. B) There was no third pillar in the rivalry, the Turbografix 16 was barely in the equation in the rivalry between the Genesis and the SNES since the latter 2 were far more popular. Hence there was only a 2-way race between Sonic + Mario, which is evident considering that they were both also far more popular. C) Hudson don't need a character in. Hell Square Enix don't even need a character in Brawl imo. Out of Bonk or Geno, I'd certainly choose Geno anyway (but that isn't the point). What I'm saying is the Hudson have benefitted enough from developing games for Nintendo and getting their T-16 games sold on the VC.

Thus there is really no case for Bonk or R.O.B being included. Is Isaac really 3rd party? He'd be a much better choice than Bonk if so, and a shoe-in if not.

 

[masterluigi1]

can someone tell me or give me a link to where sakurai's poll id.

 

[CO18]

i can't give you a link but i wrote down exactly who were there and in this order if u wanna know
1. King Dedede
2. Krystal
3. Diddy Kong
4. Ike
5. Ridley
6. Geno
7. Takamaru

those were the most voted for on his poll

 

[DonkeySmasher]

i decided to make a franchise order importance from my perspective

now this is in no way a law just because one franchise has 4 characters does not mean all the other in it's line of importance needs four

but the order should loosely remain so franchises know where their place is

#1 mario: duh
#2: Pokemon/LOZ: one brings money the other has great history and precedence so there both around the same importance
#3 Kirby: is sakurai's baby
#4: DK/starfox/ FE: one made ton of money in past but is now neglected, one other stays just above average in enough categories, and the final is a new but quickly growing franchise
#5: metroid: is still pretty popular and has history but is not strong enough in Japan i think it should at least have 2
#6: falcon/ wario/ yoshi/ earthbound/ pit/ pikmin: all of these are either slowly dieing or just starting therefore each should only have one rep IMO
#6: other nintendo characters: each of these series will have only one char also retros have precedence in this category due to history
#7: third party: it should be 3 or less because it is smash and sakurai said so

so you like

 

[Kunitsuna]

Speaking of Mach Rider. I know I said he could never work with his motorcycle, but now that I´ve considered it (and acknowledged that his chances of getting in are high as far as retro goes) I think he´d be a highly original character with it. So, a moveset!

NEWCOMER

MACH RIDER

from "VS. Mach Rider", Nintendo

COSTUMES
- Mach Rider (as seen above)
- Dark Rider (black and grey color scheme, black bike)
- Star Rider (blue and white color scheme, blue bike)
- Pink Rider (white and pink color scheme, pink bike)
- Secret - Excitebiker (Excitebiker color scheme)

STATS
=ON MOTORCYCLE=
Strength ***
Weight ****
Speed ****
Recovery *
=ON FOOT=
Strength ****
Weight **
Speed **
Recovery ****

APPEARANCE
In SSBM, Mach Rider appeared as a trophy in full 3D glory, along with his motorcycle. Sakurai should work off of that design, but also keeping his original image in mind (the one shown above) to give him a new and interesting look much like what he did to Pit.

Mach Rider carries a sort of rifle, which would be made more exaggerated in form and slightly cartoonified in order to keep with Super Smash Bros.´ feel. While on his bike, it would be mounted on the front, while on foot he would carry it like in the picture.

MOTORCYCLE MECHANICS
Mach Rider would be a highly unique character thanks to his ability to ride his motorcycle while fighting. He can also go on foot and fight like a regular character through the use of one of his B-moves (more on that later), but while riding there are some very particular characteristics to him.

First, Mach Rider´s traction is different. On foot, his traction rivals Link´s, while on his bike he´ll easily skid forward like Luigi. While his fall speed is no different and neither is his height, the length of his "body" is. When Mach Rider´s bike is hit while he rides it, he does take damage, but does not flinch. Mach Rider himself needs to be hit in order to react to the damage. Mach Rider leans close to his motorcycle like in the SSBM trophy, so only low hits or projectiles would miss him.

Perhaps the most important aspect about Mach Rider on his bike is that he cannot jump. Pressing the Jump button will do, literally, nothing, and therefore he has no aerial moves in this mode. The only way to gain slight aerial recovery (and thus his single Recovery star in the Stats board) is through use of his B Up special, and even that is highly limited. Furthermore he can´t attack with A-moves until he touches the ground. This also applies to situations where Mach Rider has been knocked into the air.

However, this mode also has accentuated advantages. Aside from the unique combination of high speed and weight, Mach Rider can hurt enemies just by running into them, without the press of a button, and does not loose momentum by hitting them. Furthermore, his shield lasts longer than average. Also, he can cross over small gaps between platforms when dashing at high speed without falling. By the way, his dodge animation would consist of turning into a black mist, phasing through the foe and quickly reappearing on the other side, as anything else would look a tad weird.

While Mach Rider is a powerful force on his motorcycle, he has some very odd quirks. His on-foot is more similar to what has already been seen in SSB and would have very opposite attributes (high Strength and Recovery, low Weight and Speed). This would make him very dependent on wits and situation, and thus make him a sort of "transformation" character without the drawbacks of being broken or cheap.

Mach Rider regularly starts the battle on his motorcycle, but if you press and hold A while the stage loads he will start on foot with his bike right next to him.

A-MOVES - ON BIKE ground
A - Gear Spin (The motorcycle´s front wheel spins rapidly once)
Continued A - Turning Steel (The front wheel spins uninterrupted)
A-Tilt Up - Wheelie (The motorcycle rises to stand on its back wheel and strike with the front)
A-Tilt Side - Mach Punch (Mach Rider quickly leans forward to punch the foe)
A-Tilt Down - Dust Kicker (Both wheels spin in opposite directions, harming enemies)
Floor Recovery - Revenge (Kicks the motorcycle up, then hops on it)
Edge Recovery - Comeback (Swings the motorcycle onto the stage with one arm, then hops on it)

A-MOVES - ON BIKE smash
A-Smash Up - Black Metal (The motorcycle does like in Wheelie, but the front wheel is surrounded in black miasma)
A-Smash Side - Mach Wheel (The front wheel spins, surrounded by the same mist)
A-Smash Down - Dark Spin (Dark energy zaps nearby foes)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT ground
A - Mach Punch (A rapid, straight punch)
A , A - Mach Hook (A swift strike with the rifle-wielding arm)
A, A, A - Mach Strike (A powerful, rising throttle kick)
A-Tilt Up - Uppercut (Rapidly punches up with his free arm)
A-Tilt Side - Steel Strike (Bashes the enemy with the rifle handle)
A-Tilt Down - Stomp (Stomps the ground, creating a small black shock wave)
Floor Recovery - Vengeance (Leaps up swiftly, delivering an elbow hit in the process)
Edge Recovery - Return (Swings self up, kicking forward, then lands on ground)
Dash - Shoulder Smash (Crashes into the foe, right shoulder first)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT air
A - Mach Kick (Horizontal kick delivered at mid-height)
A-Tilt Up - Red Nail (Precise kick sent upward, damage is high but very centered)
A-Tilt Forward - Throttle Kick (Pushes the opponent away with straight kick)
A-Tilt Backward - Blind Strike (Swings both arms behind his back)
A-Tilt Down - Black Nail (Drills down with both legs)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT smash
A-Smash Up - Hellfire (Points rifle up as it emanates blue flames)
A-Smash Side - Sixth Gear (Puts whole body into straightforward sucker punch)
A-Smash Down - Firestorm (Casually points rifle downward as blue flames light up and spread)

B-MOVES - ON BIKE
B - Shoot :: The rifle propped on Mach Rider´s motorcycle fires by itself, sending small orbs of an incandescent orange-red color straight forward, unaffected by gravity. They travel a fairly long way, but do minimal damage. They can be fired at a high rate, somewhere between Falco´s Blaster and the Super Scope. Mach Rider can fire these orbs while moving and not loose momentum, but they only travel half as far. This, aside from his B Up, is the only attack that Mach Rider can use while airborne.
B Up - Mach Spin :: Mach Rider props his bike up for a wheelie, but the front wheel spins extremely fast for a very short time, creating waves of wind around it. It traps enemies in and then sends them flying, but as mentioned lasts for a short while. Mach Rider is also boosted diagonally upward, but the boost is minimal.
B Side - Bomber Ball :: Mach Rider hurls a black, metallic orb a short distance forward, which explodes shortly afterward. The strength of the blast is slightly weaker than that of a Bob-omb. Mach Rider must wait until the Bob-omb explodes until he can throw another one.
B Down - Hop Off :: Mach Rider steps down from his bike and stands on foot, the animation taking a bit less than Zelda´s Transformation. Like with Wario´s Chopper, the bike is left where it is, but it cannot be damaged or ridden by other characters. It can however, be picked up, but characters will move very slowly under its weight. If the bike is sent off the stage, another one will fall from the sky immediately after.

B-MOVES - ON FOOT
B - Shoot :: Exactly like when Mach Rider is on his bike. However, he cannot continue running while shooting it, and must stop.
B Up - Turbo Boost :: Mach Rider becomes surrounded by raging blue fire, and shoots diagonally up at high speed. The attack does both high damage to intercepted foes and is one of the best recoveries in the game, sending him a high distance up. It has, however, a considerable amount of lag after execution.
B Side - Oil Drum :: Mach Rider takes out an oil drum about as tall as Kirby, colored red and rusting, and places it in front of him. If the oil drum is shot with any form of fire-based projectile weapon or attack (Such as Mach Rider´s shots, Mario´s Fireballs, Fox´s Fire Fox or Captain Falcon´s Falcon Boost) it will explode with the power of a Bob-omb, sending unfortunate victims far away with high damage and on fire. Mach Rider can have only have one oil drum out at a time. If this attack is Smashed, Mach Rider will throw the oil drum a short distance forward instead.
B - Ride :: Mach Rider hops on his bike if standing next to it, the animation being slightly shorter than Zelda´s Transformation. The move will only work if the bike is directly adjacent to him.

GRABS - ON BIKE
Grab - Side Reach (Mach Rider turns to the side and grabs at the foe wih his arm)
Hit - Wheel Spin (Holds the opponent up to let the spinning front wheel hit them)
Throw Up - Prize Shot (Flings the foe into the air and shoots them once)
Throw Side - Blast Kick (Holds the enemy up and kicks them away)
Throw Down - Road Rage (Drops the foe and lets the turning wheels bring the hurt)

GRABS - ON FOOT
Grab - Mach Reach (Very quickly reaches for the opponent with free hand)
Hit - Point-Blank (Shoots at the opponent from point-blank range)
Throw Up - Rapid Shot (Boosts the foe into the air with repeated shots)
Throw Side - Heave (Grabs foe with one hand, spins once and hurls them far)
Throw Down - Stomper (Casually drops foe and connects boot to face)

TAUNT - ON BIKE :: Faces screen and ***** rifle.
TAUNT - ON FOOT :: Turns to screen and ***** rifle.

FINAL SMASH - Blazing Barrel :: Mach Rider´s Final Smash is the same whether he is on his motorcycle or not. He raises his rifle up and pulls the trigger once. Five fireballs of bright orange flame, each about as large as Bowser, will be shot out, moving erratically in the stage and homing into nearby opponents. The fireballs are extinguished when they hit a battler or ten seconds after the execution of the Final Smash.

KIRBY COPY :: Regardless of whether he copies Mach Rider while he is on his bike or on foot, Kirby will only gain his helmet and rifle. He will be able to shoot the fireballs while running without stopping, however.

It could be fun, yanno.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

first of all

bumping thread

secondly i could see mach rider but he has some fierce competition in the retro category

there's little mac, rob, baloon fighter, and many more

either way i believe that pit and someone else will be the only two retros and all the others will be assists

 

[O D I N]

That's an interesting moveset for Mach Rider there. Nicely done.

 

[OysterMeister]

Haha, I like the Mach Rider moveset. I can see parts of it working seamlessly, like his wheelie (and even him throwing his own bike one-handed).

Still, I wonder if he really needs to ever get off the bike? It seems like if the bike had a jumping ability he could have some great aerials in the way of stunts.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

I think there gonna release a roster of 50 characters(lets hope)40 isnt as big a jump for the amount from ssb to ssbm plus the wii can handle quite a lot.So im gonna do a 50 char roster(yet another lame roster)

Mario series:
Mario:Still the same(Dr mario costume)
Luigi:Has a new moveset including vacuum
Peach:Stays the same though B button different
Toad:NEWCOMER with new move set
Bowser:Still the same
Paper Mario:NEWCOMER similar to mario but some new moves
Bowser jr/Shadow mario:
Bowser jr:NEWCOMER is quite heavy and fast but lacks and recovery power has new moveset
Shadow Mario:NEWCOMER weaker than mario but higher jump but lighter new moveset including paint brush.
Baby Mario and Baby Luigi:NEWCOMER lightweigh new moveset work as team

Donkey Kong Series:
Donkey Kong:Still the same
Diddy Kong:NEWCOMER very fast with best DK series recovery
King Krool:NEWCOMER very powerful but cant recover that well or run

Metroid series:
Samus/Zero suit samus:
Samus:still the same
Zero suit Samus:NEWCOMERFaster than normal samus but weaker with attack
RIDLEY(WOOT WOOT):NEWCOMER:Largest chararcter though not the heaveyesy(lighter than ganondorf) attacks fast may make some fast combos and can recover very good(also he is resized)
Dark Samus:NEWCOMER Not a samus clone
Sylux:NEWCOMER Newmove set desighned for him(Almsot like samus but provide to him)

Pokemon series:
Pichachu:Still the same
JigglyPuff:Still the same
Ricario:NEWCOMER New move set is also heavy because of the steel side and high attck because of fighting
Mewtwo:Still the same


Fire emblem series:
Marth:Still the same
Black Knight:NEWCOMER(dont know anything about fire emblem)
One other random from fire emblem
Roy:Still the same

Legand of Zelda series:
Link:Still the same
Zelda:No sheik new down B abilitie
Ganondorf:Brand New moveset
Skull Kid MM:NEWCOMER I dont know how he works but he is a light weight
Wolf LInk and Midna:NEWCOMERAct as one chararcter
Cel Shaded Link(WW):NEWCOMER New move set though some similarities to old Young Link

F-Zero series:
Captain Falcon:still the same speed demon
Black shadow:NEWCOMER new move set

Wario Series:
Wario:NEWCOMER new move set heavy weight and strong but is slow and cant recovey well
Waluigi:NEWCOMER new move set 2nd tallest character(yes bigger than bowser but not quite ridley)Average speed great recovery lowest attack out of mario, luigi, wario and waluigi

Yoshi series:
Yoshi:Still the same Up B move now helps recovery(confirmed)


Fox series:
Fox:Always has blaster out(confirmed)
Wolf:NEWCOMER similar to fox but some new moves
Krystal:NEWCOMER new moveset
Falco:New move set

Kirby series:
Kirby:Still the same
Meta Knight:NEWCOMER Dont know much about him great recovery
King dedede:NEWCOMER heavyweight and new moveset(two jumps and a glide)

3rd parth series:
Snake:NEWCOMER dont know much about him
Sonic:NEWCOMER fastest and good 2 jumps weak attack but great attcking speed
Mega Man:NEWCOMER Newmove set

OTHER:
Ness:Still the same
Pit:NEWCOMER Dont know much about him great recovery


All double one like shadow mario do not count as seperate chars

Final smash transforms:
Bowser:Giga Bowser
Ganondorf:Ganon
Mewtwo:Ultra Mewtwo(Mewtwo with armour from the first movie)
Dark Samus:Metroid Prime(random either MPfirst form or MPsecond form)

Paper Marioaper Marios Final Smash is a random when he uses it him and a partner from Paper mario number 1 or PMATTYD.He and the partner do something to over power the screen

Luigi:He sends ghosts stored in his vacuum to KO all other on the screen
Skull Kid:Uses the moon to crush the screen while he floats away from the impact
Falco:Calls for arwings(not like in ssbm)these will track down one foe and kill him
Fox:Calls the great fox do Ko most people on the screen
Wolf:Same as Falco though uses his team

Yoshi:Calls a herd of yoshi to help him fight(these yoshi are weak like ssb yoshi on the stroy mode so about 1 hit will kill them)about 15 of them

Sonic:Calls for knuckles and tails they help fight act like normal chars though are made lightweight

 

[Vali]

I don't know what makes me want to cry more. The fact you included characters like Waluigi, Birdo, Paper Mario, Blazekin, Sylux, Roy and Rayman, the fact you included Tom Nook who has all but been deconfirmed or purely that you put Bowser Jr. (with Shadow Mario no less) in the "Yoshi series" category? Along with Birdo too? >.>

Probably the first one, although 3 is definitely a contender.

 

[Ben the ultimate]

I think Dr. Mario should be a Alternative Costume for Mario

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

I don't know what makes me want to cry more. The fact you included characters like Waluigi, Birdo, Paper Mario, Blazekin, Sylux, Roy and Rayman, the fact you included Tom Nook who has all but been deconfirmed or purely that you put Bowser Jr. (with Shadow Mario no less) in the "Yoshi series" category? Along with Birdo too? >.>

Probably the first one, although 3 is definitely a contender.

okay waluigi is a wanted char by many ,i could remove birdo, paper mario was just for like a dr mario but if you prefer dr mario for being a costume then fine with that,Blazeikin was just for another one so he can be removed,Sylux was there because shakuria wanted to increase the metroid chararcters so samus,ridley,dark samus i was thinking if he had 4 the other would be sylux,roy was so i didnt get flamed by roy lovers and ray man well beaucse of the rabbit game but i too think that the 3rd party chrarcter should only be up to 3 so get rid of rayman
also because of the animal crossing stage i though hey mabye a animal crossing character but because i dont play it i dont know any good ones
also i got bowser jr mixed up with baby bowser that how.

 

[Vali]

Waluigi is hardly "wanted by many" and the fact you put him in the Wario series shows that you don't even know much about him. He should be in the Mario series section if any section at all, and that leaves your list with a grand total of 10 Mario characters...ugh.

 

[Wiseguy]

Hey that Skull Kid as Assist Trophy is a great idea!
After it comes from box it would bring the moon by screaming and that would crush all!

E: Why i cant see my sing? :/

Skull Kid owns! No doubt about it.

As for your sig, just click the "show your signiture" box.

I had decided to refrain from posting here until I could get back home from this forced vacation - trying to write in this tiny USB keyboard is extremely irritating, so I've limited myself to lurking lately (I have read the latest developments on the thread, though. It's been as interesting as always ). However, as a total Kirby geek, such a lack of knowledge of the Kirby series I can't let go.

So, to answer the question: Knuckle Joe is a Kirby character, a particular individual from the race of enemies that gives Kirby his Fighter ability. His first real appearance as a separate individual was Kirby Superstar for the SNES, where he was the Fight-type helper (go play it, now. It might be one of the best Kirbys ever, and you will also get some background on Metaknight). He has made a few appearances ever since (I think he also was cameo'ing in Kirby Air Ride), and had quite a bit of background and development in the Kirby anime. He's supposed to be rather rash and rude, and it has been underlined in the anime that thinking isn't really his strong suit.

Kirby geek, out!

*insert "the more you know" star and tune here*

Thanks for filling me in Dracin. I know zip about the Kirby series, but I think it's awesome that Sakurai has found a way of paying homage to his creations.

Can your predicitions be truly counted as accurate if you are constantly altering them?

Shouldn't you be forced to make your predicitions and then sit on them?

Well that was originally my intention, but as the weeks passed this thread became an entirely different animal.

I agree, but this is no longer a thread made to critique his predictions, but rather a thread for general speculation on Brawl.

There are some intelligent conversations that goes on here, but I can never keep up with it because of the page long multi quotes and big fancy words being used.

Gypsey pretty much hit the nail on the head. This thread has grown beyond my list, and has become more a place more general Brawl speculation and discussion.

...Plus it's fun to come by and see him have to add characters he said would never be in.

There is that...

Let me guess Grim, you have a speech prepared in the event that Ice Climbers are confirmed.

I don't remember which issue it was in, but this statement also appears under the Castle stage in the official Stages topic in the general Brawl discussion board. And as I've said before, I somehow doubt Nintendo Power would lie, at least intentionally...

I dunno, maybe they just humped to a conclusion. At first blush, that dragon does look pretty similar to the one in Path of Radiance...

Appearently Wiseguy refused the bribe... I'm getting $1,250 a week.

In case you couldn't tell from my signature, I play as Yoshi. Everyone is happy to see him back, especially me, and he finally has a real third jump besides a pathetic, weak, and futile last-second air dodge. I would hope that egg-throwing is the same and Yoshi now has an inexplicable upward boost. Then again, I would like to see some change. I want the third jump but I still want normal eggs... oh the angst of it all!

On another note, the footstool jump looks interesting. Recoveries just got harder. Luckily Yoshi can throw a projectile as he recovers now...

Wow. I had no idea people actually played as Yoshi.

Kidding, kidding. I think it's great that Yoshi is finally getting a triple jump, even if it's not a great one. Hopefully more people will use him in Brawl.

Nah, Ike would be a new character, and I'm sure the next new character Sakurai reveals will be a stand-alone addition from a new series (like Olimar or Balloon Fighter). That way, Sakurai could ramp up speculation and hype about new characters addtitions to the returning series without actually revealing any of them. He seems to like doing that.

Obviously it's pretty difficult to predict which characters will be revealed when, beyond the fact that Meta is all but guaranteed to be revealed this coming week. The following week... anyone is fair game.

My prediction is that Metaknight won't be hidden, but he will have to be unlocked, the same way Luigi and Jigglypuff were secrets everyone knew about (that's an oxymoron) in Melee.

Technically Luigi and Jiggs were hidden characters, even though they were pretty easy to unlock.

Well, Marth did appear in a sequel. But that's besides the point, I know what you mean.
But I think series where all characters stand equal should go by their own rules. I'd look to the (hated by you, but still) Pokemon series as an example. There are literally hundreds of Pokemon, and all of them have just about equal standings. Nevertheless, a few pokmans manage to somehow distinguish themselves from the rest, and it's from this pool of the elite that smash draws it's even smaller list of characters.
I believe FE should go by similar rules. It doesn't matter that the lords are old characters, it only matters that they're still popular enough to be relevant.

Pokemon is a really weird exception, becuase apparently the only Pokemon "characters" are from the anime. The games, it would seem, are secondary.

As for Fire Emblem (and all the other series) it's still the games that matter, and recent game appearnaces carry more weight. After all, by including characters from Goddess of Dawn, they are increasing sales of their newest instalment of the series.

Now that I can't agree with. I hate the idea that smash should be some form of gaming popularity contest, with characters whisked in and out based on whether or not their game happened to be current at the time the next smash was in development.
Think about it: both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were gamecube titles, it's possible that TP could have come first and WW second. Midna wouldn't have a chance, since her game was no longer current. Or what happens if Midna and Bonk get in and their movesets are amazingly fun? Do they get cut when the next smash rolls around because they're no longer current, or because it's time for a new retro character? How is that in keeping with good gameplay?
It seems to me that once you make the list of video-game all-stars, very little should be able to get you off of it. And as for getting ON that list in the first place, I'd say it should take much more than just being a hot new property.

Popularity is only part of the equation, though is should not be overlooked. Importance to their series of origin and their potential for a unique moveset should also be considered.

As for your WW/TP example, it doesn't really fit becuase Twilight Princess is currently far more popular.This makes Midna a very strong contender fopr a spot in Brawl - though she should not return in the next Smash if she fails to return in another Zelda title.

Having cool, obscure retro characters in Smash is great - but they should not be included at the expence of currently relevent characters who are far more deserving of a spot on the roster. This is why characters like ICs and Bonk should be limited to a single guest appearance - unless their series sees a revival.

But by those standards he's a shoe in. His moveset IS fun to play. The counter and the dancing blade in particular are great fun, and will remain so regardless of any nerfing that Brawl might have to offer. As for representing the series... FE was sent outside Japan based on the popularity of Marth (and Roy) in Melee. The fact that almost everyone outside Japan who knows FE must therefore also know Marth's name and face is not something you can play down.

Marth is fun, but is he unique? With Meta, Pit, Link and very likely Ike already in the game - I would argue that Marth isn't all that special.

Marth and Roy's popularity does deserve some of the credit for Nintendo's decision to bring Fire Emblem stateside - so hats off to them. But they STILL have to earn their spots on the roster like every other character. Smash Bros is a game for Nintendo allstars - not a retirement home for irrelivant hasbeens. Na like it or not, a character whop hasn't appeared in a FE game in over a decade is not as relevant to the series today as he he once was.

Yeah, I can see that happening.
A heavy character with a disjointed hitbox would be new to Smash, and although teleporting isn't new, a heavy character doing so would be new, and....

....

You know, just off-hand, the Black knight is starting to sound what I always imagined Ganon would be like. You know, the big Pig-Monster, could be a transformation of Ganondorf. He weilds a trident (almost like a big sword), he teleports.... but he also gets fire-bats and other cool stuff. Plus he's a monster, everyone loves monsters.
Hey, I've got a question for you: Given the possible similarities between them, would you say that Ganon might have and even greater potential for a unique fighting style than the Black knight?

I will grant you that, but I doubt that the retro, trident weilding Pig Ganon stands much of a chance.The Ganondorf that will make it into Brawl isn't from ALttP - he's from Twilight Princess. So I strongly suspect he will be given the ability to transform into the Pig Ganon from Twilight Princess as his Final Smash, thus leaving the door open to BK.

Yeah, we won't really know until we see if a contested character makes it or not. I always hoped that Sakurai just meant that only a select few redundant characters were getting cut, such as Dr. Mario and Pichu. Although now I could see Sheik getting cut as well (though I'm still against this in that I don't think it solves any problems).

I guess I've just hoped that with a team of 50, his own wing at Nintendo HQ, more time, and access to all the original code of Melee, Sakurai would be able to pull of Brawl perfectly, with almost no compromises.

Agreed. But personally, I would much rather see as many newcomers as possible. And if cutting a ton of characters gives them added to time to include more newcomers, then that is a compromise I could live with.

Haha, I thought so. Still, you have to admit it's a possibility, one that keeps in line with your way of thinking to boot.

I don't mind the idea of tag team characters, but there are much better candidiates that Diddy/Dixie. Midna/Wolf, for example, would be ingenius. Olimar and his Pikmin minions opperate under a similar principle. Heck, even Pulse/Minos might work a Pichu replacement - assuming that Mewtwo isn't returning.

Don't be a pessimist. What about when Dixie is alive? Then Diddy gets the unfair advantage of being able to hold two items at once, powered up moves, and being able to attack twice, simultaneously, with different attacks. And don't even get me started about what he could do to you once he grabs you.

Okay, so why not have Donkey Kong/Diddy tag team, or Peach/Daisy, or Bowser/Bowser Jr, or Link/Zelda? Becuase all those characters deserve their own spot on the roster, while Popo and Nana are not.

In response to the 40 man challenge in whatever post that was long ago, here's my reality-tempered dream team.

-- Melee --
Mario - Because he's basically synonymous with Nintendo and, oh yeah, he's been confirmed.
Luigi - Though I don't buy in to the original 12 sticking around, there's really no reason to drop Luigi. He is the Brother of the Mario Brothers after all.
Peach - With an all new moveset capturing the charms of Super Princess Peach, Peach is probably returning. She finally starred in her own game, so that's bonus points.
Bowser - He's confirmed. Also he's the quintessential Mario villain.
Yoshi - Again, confirmed.
DK - Confirmed!
Link - Confirmed.
Zelda - She's also confirmed.
Ganondorf - Because what would better represent LoZ than the big three? Ganondorf is almost as recognizable as Link! Also, he's a villain, which apparently counts for something.
Kirby - He's confirmed.
Pikachu - The Pokemon mascot since forever. Also confirmed.
Mewtwo - A villain, which is rare in Pokemon, considering their usual lack of personality. Also helps fulfill the quota for purple evil stuff attacks.
Jigglypuff - Because she's so darn popular, a good character with a unique moveset, and is popular in Japan. Also cute.
C. Falcon - F-Zero really needs the reputation. Also he's a cool character, despite his lack of recent titles.
Samus - Confirmed, plus she's pretty much needed for ZSS.
Fox - Heroic anthropomorphic space animal to draw in the furries. And he's confirmed.

-- Brawl --
Wario - Confirmed in and the leader of the popular (maybe) Warioware series of games.
Zero Suit Samus - A possible Sheik replacement, and confirmed.
Pit - Old-school cult classic. Confirmed.
Solid Snake - Because Kojima is just so darn persistant.
Meta Knight - Kirby's not-really-evil rival. He's definitely in.

-- Newcomers --

- MARIO -
None. Yeah, that's right. The Big Four plus Yoshi are more than enough for Mario's team.

- ZELDA -
Windwaker Link - Unique art style and a lot of interesting items and moves possible. Also, replaces Young Link admirably. Starred in the GCN Zeldas and the upcoming Phantom Hourglass.

- DONKEY KONG -
Diddy Kong - Smaller, faster and semi-unique DK character. DK's little buddy in the DKC series. Plus he seems to be popular enough.

- STARFOX -
Wolf - Replaces Falco. Villain, semi-important to the series. Has a mechanical eye. Also a rival to Fox! (Possible Fox Clone)
Krystal - Fan favourite, with a unique moveset assuming staff. Important to SF whether or not I want her to be.

- F-ZERO -
Female or Villain Racer (Preferrably Both) - Better be a clone, or I'm over the 40 man limit. So, uh, Blood Falcon? If there's an female villain, clone someone and toss her in. You could even have two clones here(!!!).

- WARIO -
Mona OR Captain Syrup - If Fire Emblem could pull enough weight for two people in Melee, then Warioware can too. Either a villainess or Wario's love interest. Also, Syrup is a female AND a villain which is rare enough in the Nintendo world.

- METROID -
Ridley - Villain, almost quintessential mainstay of Metroid. Adds another heavyweight character with good aerial recovery.

- KIRBY -
King Dedede - I honestly know nothing about him, but he's Sakurai's and he's been desired in both previous SSBs. Plus he's a villain!

- POKEMON -
Lucario - Recent Pokemon mascot, fourth generation, good array of fighting style moves.

- EARTHBOUND/MOTHER -
Lucas - Replaces Ness like Sakurai apparently wanted. They're similar characters anyway. Also, could be used to get America interested in Mother 3 before translation, similarly to the FE characters.
Kumatora - Because the Mother series needs a female. Similar reasons to above. A double whammy of realitvely unknown characters for an American marketing blitz.

- FIRE EMBLEM -
Lyndis - First lord playable in the first FE game released in the US. Has speed and potential ranged attacks, can replace Marth as the fast one.
Ike - Heavier fighter and Lord of the first internationally liked Fire Emblem game. Also the most recent AND Lord in two games. Replaces Roy.
Black Knight OR Marth - Toss-up here. Recent FE villain with an interesting backstory and shows up multiple times on one hand OR one of Japan's favourite lords and old-school character on the other.

- OTHER -
Balloon Fighter - Old-school and was planned for Melee I hear. Definitely a unique fighter.
Captain Olimar - Pikmin star and very unique, though that's not particularly a good thing. Reasonably popular and pure Nintendo.
Mii - For people who like Create-A-Fighter without needing to actually add a similar mode, been in a few games and have a lot of moves to choose from. I can't see why they WOULDN'T fit in fine; they're kind of like the mascot of the Wii.
Tom Nook - A bone for Animal Crossing fans, which is a popular series. Has tools that lend to a fighting style and a cut-throat outlook on life.

- THIRD PARTY -
Sonic - Because he's Mario's rival, that's why. Exceedingly well recognized and his two most recent GOOD Sonic games are on the Wii and DS respectively.
Sheena - Hear me out on this one. ToS was one of the best RPGs on the GCN, and re-introduced Tales to the modern Western audience. For characters from it, we have a few choices, but it comes down to this for me: they need more females so that leaves us with the choice between Collette, Presea, Raine or Sheena. Raine is a healer and light magic user, so she conflicts with Zelda; Collette is irritating and stupid; leaving the choice between Sheena and Presea. Judging by the current trend of female characters *cough*Zamus*cough*, I figured Sheena would have a better chance of being picked. Her move set is also far more magical (and therefore unique) than the straight-up axe-wielding physical attacks of Presea.

- OTHER POSSIBILITIES -
Ephraim - Unique spear-wielding Lord from the last FE game on the GBA. Left off because, frankly, I haven't heard nearly as much praise for FE8 as the earlier GBA games and Japan dislikes all of the GBA games already.
Megaman (Classic, X, .EXE, ZX, etc.) - If any of the above characters are left out, I'd say Megaman is the one to replace them. He's popular, classic was almost entirely on SNES, X debuted on the SNES, .EXE is exclusively Nintendo systems, ZX is the newest reimagining, and on and on. I left him out because I'm not sure whether or not Capcom wants Megaman in Brawl.
Viewtiful Joe - Mostly the same reasons as above, but replace the infinite variations with Viewtiful Joe debuted on a Nintendo system and was wildly popular for a year or so. Has enough crazy moves and personality to fit right in, but don't think he's popular enough anymore.
Falco - Could easily fill the place that I have for Wolf, either of them with an entirely new moveset. I think Wolf has a better chance due to being not only Fox's rival but ALSO a villain.
Paper Mario - Unique and can fill G&W's shoes as the crazy flat guy with weird moves.
Isaac - If I'd had more room, I'd have added SOME Golden Sun character, and Isaac is the titular hero of the first part. Note that Felix can basically replace him with no problem if you prefer the second game.
Geno - Another IF I ONLY HAD MORE ROOM. But his being a third-party character reduces his chances, in addition to starring in only a single cult-classic. Of course, I did include more Mother 3 characters...
Red/May/Other - Some Pokemon trainer. I know that most people are deathly allergic to the idea of trainers being a Pokemon rep, but they are kinda the main characters of the games as well as being the avatar for the player (especially in Battle Revolution). Also, it gets more Pokemon in there by giving them special move status for the trainers. Not that trainers don't have other items to play with - fishing rods, bikes, hammer/pick, radar, various stones, rocks, uh..cell phones...
King K. Rool - To be frank, I think he's just about as stupid as you can get. However, in light of the dearth of villainry, Kong's nemesis may very well end up as a playable character. Hmm, is it just me or is each of the main baddies outside of Mewtwo a heavyweight...?

- ONLY ASSIST TROPHY, IF THEY SHOW UP AT ALL -
Phoenix Wright - Though I'd love him to be a playable character, there's no chance of that happening. He's also techincally a third-party, being developed by Capcom and all.
Elite Beat Agents/Ouendan - Rather than their leader, I'd imagine the base groups (J and the posse for EBA, whoever for Ouendan) would come out and dance your cares away.


And there's pictures for everyone in the "NEWCOMERS" section, just click on the name.

Cheers!

That's one exceptional roster, if ever I saw one. Interesting comements and pictures to boot.

9.8/10

How is Olimar's uniqueness NOT a good thing?!?!?!?

im not a big sonic fan i dont think he would have enough moves unless u put in the sonic heros team(sonic,taile and knuckles) that would be good to see fight

Anybody that doesn't say Sonic doesn't has the punches and kicks like how other characters do in Smash Bros., then look up Sonic Battle for the GBA on Wikipedia or something. Every single playable character pretty much punches and/or kicks except for Cream.

Personally, i think Sonic should fight solo, all his other friends should be or have:

A. An Assist Trophy
B. As normal trophies to view
C. No appearence whatsoever

There is littloe question that Sonic COULD work in Smash. The real question is if Sega got it's act togather in time to allow Sakurai to include him in the game. Frankly, if that were the case, I would have expected to hear about it at E3.

While the topic of Isaac is still raised, I'd like to point out that Nintendo solely owns the rights to the characters and music in the Golden Sun games while Nintendo and Camelot jointly own the rights to everything else. Here, towards the bottom, is where I got this. Maybe they made sure they got these rights in the case of another SSB game being made. <_<

Hmmm... maybe. I know very little about the series, so could someone elaborate on how Issac's abilites might potentially be translated into a moveset?

This thread is getting way to close to the bottom. I better bump it.

Thanks Numa. I apreciate it.

Erm I haven't been following this thread much, but Wiseguy, Bonk and R.O.B? Granted there's a need for a few retro characters but I think you might have overdone it this time. R.O.B was much much more of a cult gimmick than Game + Watch who was one of the first ever videogame characters and truly was a retro guy. With some much competition for retro spots (Little Mac, Balloon Fighter and Mach Rider to name a few...well...3) it's not that he's not a unique enough character, which he certainly is, it's just that he just wasn't important enough. He ain't popular enough to be retro at the end of the day.

The problem with retro characters is that the NES era was filled with awesome, but forgotten characters. Frankly, I'm concerned that retro characters could completely over take the roster. You could include G&W, ICs, Pit, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider and Mac - and you would still have people complaining about the absence of the Duckhunt Dog.

That's why ROB is so perfect. He single handedly symbolizes the entire NES era. Back when the NES launched, Nintendo created ROB as their very first mascot and bundled him with the system. The interactive nature of having your own robot was Nintendo's way of getting nongamers to buy a videogame console (an impressive feat, considering how Atari had effectively burried console gaming). The tactic succeeded, setting the stage for a console that would set the world on fire with games like Super Mario Bros. In addition, ROB has popped up again and again in recent years in games ranging from F-Zero GX, Pikmin 2 and Mario Kart DS.

So, not only does ROB ooze personality - but he plays an important role in Nintendo history as well.

Bonk I think you're wrong on. A) 6 third party characters is too much. B) There was no third pillar in the rivalry, the Turbografix 16 was barely in the equation in the rivalry between the Genesis and the SNES since the latter 2 were far more popular. Hence there was only a 2-way race between Sonic + Mario, which is evident considering that they were both also far more popular. C) Hudson don't need a character in. Hell Square Enix don't even need a character in Brawl imo. Out of Bonk or Geno, I'd certainly choose Geno anyway (but that isn't the point). What I'm saying is the Hudson have benefitted enough from developing games for Nintendo and getting their T-16 games sold on the VC.

Thus there is really no case for Bonk or R.O.B being included. Is Isaac really 3rd party? He'd be a much better choice than Bonk if so, and a shoe-in if not.

TheTurbografix may have been the least popular of the three consoles, but it still had a fair sized chunk of the pie with 10 million units launched. In addition, the Virtual console has proved to be a very profitable cash cow for Nintendo, so I think having a VC representaive isn't out of the question.

Though I will grant you that 6 #rd partuies does seem outlandish, particularily in light of the lack of any big charactrer reveals at E3...

i decided to make a franchise order importance from my perspective

now this is in no way a law just because one franchise has 4 characters does not mean all the other in it's line of importance needs four

but the order should loosely remain so franchises know where their place is

#1 mario: duh
#2: Pokemon/LOZ: one brings money the other has great history and precedence so there both around the same importance
#3 Kirby: is sakurai's baby
#4: DK/starfox/ FE: one made ton of money in past but is now neglected, one other stays just above average in enough categories, and the final is a new but quickly growing franchise
#5: metroid: is still pretty popular and has history but is not strong enough in Japan i think it should at least have 2
#6: falcon/ wario/ yoshi/ earthbound/ pit/ pikmin: all of these are either slowly dieing or just starting therefore each should only have one rep IMO
#6: other nintendo characters: each of these series will have only one char also retros have precedence in this category due to history
#7: third party: it should be 3 or less because it is smash and sakurai said so

so you like

I would argue that Metroid is at least as important as DK/SF and FE. The Prime trilogy may not be huge in Japan, but it's a big deal to gamers everywhere else. Metrouid can get 3 reps: Samus, Zamus and Ridley.

Speaking of Mach Rider. I know I said he could never work with his motorcycle, but now that I´ve considered it (and acknowledged that his chances of getting in are high as far as retro goes) I think he´d be a highly original character with it. So, a moveset!

NEWCOMER

MACH RIDER

from "VS. Mach Rider", Nintendo

COSTUMES
- Mach Rider (as seen above)
- Dark Rider (black and grey color scheme, black bike)
- Star Rider (blue and white color scheme, blue bike)
- Pink Rider (white and pink color scheme, pink bike)
- Secret - Excitebiker (Excitebiker color scheme)

STATS
=ON MOTORCYCLE=
Strength ***
Weight ****
Speed ****
Recovery *
=ON FOOT=
Strength ****
Weight **
Speed **
Recovery ****

APPEARANCE
In SSBM, Mach Rider appeared as a trophy in full 3D glory, along with his motorcycle. Sakurai should work off of that design, but also keeping his original image in mind (the one shown above) to give him a new and interesting look much like what he did to Pit.

Mach Rider carries a sort of rifle, which would be made more exaggerated in form and slightly cartoonified in order to keep with Super Smash Bros.´ feel. While on his bike, it would be mounted on the front, while on foot he would carry it like in the picture.

MOTORCYCLE MECHANICS
Mach Rider would be a highly unique character thanks to his ability to ride his motorcycle while fighting. He can also go on foot and fight like a regular character through the use of one of his B-moves (more on that later), but while riding there are some very particular characteristics to him.

First, Mach Rider´s traction is different. On foot, his traction rivals Link´s, while on his bike he´ll easily skid forward like Luigi. While his fall speed is no different and neither is his height, the length of his "body" is. When Mach Rider´s bike is hit while he rides it, he does take damage, but does not flinch. Mach Rider himself needs to be hit in order to react to the damage. Mach Rider leans close to his motorcycle like in the SSBM trophy, so only low hits or projectiles would miss him.

Perhaps the most important aspect about Mach Rider on his bike is that he cannot jump. Pressing the Jump button will do, literally, nothing, and therefore he has no aerial moves in this mode. The only way to gain slight aerial recovery (and thus his single Recovery star in the Stats board) is through use of his B Up special, and even that is highly limited. Furthermore he can´t attack with A-moves until he touches the ground. This also applies to situations where Mach Rider has been knocked into the air.

However, this mode also has accentuated advantages. Aside from the unique combination of high speed and weight, Mach Rider can hurt enemies just by running into them, without the press of a button, and does not loose momentum by hitting them. Furthermore, his shield lasts longer than average. Also, he can cross over small gaps between platforms when dashing at high speed without falling. By the way, his dodge animation would consist of turning into a black mist, phasing through the foe and quickly reappearing on the other side, as anything else would look a tad weird.

While Mach Rider is a powerful force on his motorcycle, he has some very odd quirks. His on-foot is more similar to what has already been seen in SSB and would have very opposite attributes (high Strength and Recovery, low Weight and Speed). This would make him very dependent on wits and situation, and thus make him a sort of "transformation" character without the drawbacks of being broken or cheap.

Mach Rider regularly starts the battle on his motorcycle, but if you press and hold A while the stage loads he will start on foot with his bike right next to him.

A-MOVES - ON BIKE ground
A - Gear Spin (The motorcycle´s front wheel spins rapidly once)
Continued A - Turning Steel (The front wheel spins uninterrupted)
A-Tilt Up - Wheelie (The motorcycle rises to stand on its back wheel and strike with the front)
A-Tilt Side - Mach Punch (Mach Rider quickly leans forward to punch the foe)
A-Tilt Down - Dust Kicker (Both wheels spin in opposite directions, harming enemies)
Floor Recovery - Revenge (Kicks the motorcycle up, then hops on it)
Edge Recovery - Comeback (Swings the motorcycle onto the stage with one arm, then hops on it)

A-MOVES - ON BIKE smash
A-Smash Up - Black Metal (The motorcycle does like in Wheelie, but the front wheel is surrounded in black miasma)
A-Smash Side - Mach Wheel (The front wheel spins, surrounded by the same mist)
A-Smash Down - Dark Spin (Dark energy zaps nearby foes)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT ground
A - Mach Punch (A rapid, straight punch)
A , A - Mach Hook (A swift strike with the rifle-wielding arm)
A, A, A - Mach Strike (A powerful, rising throttle kick)
A-Tilt Up - Uppercut (Rapidly punches up with his free arm)
A-Tilt Side - Steel Strike (Bashes the enemy with the rifle handle)
A-Tilt Down - Stomp (Stomps the ground, creating a small black shock wave)
Floor Recovery - Vengeance (Leaps up swiftly, delivering an elbow hit in the process)
Edge Recovery - Return (Swings self up, kicking forward, then lands on ground)
Dash - Shoulder Smash (Crashes into the foe, right shoulder first)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT air
A - Mach Kick (Horizontal kick delivered at mid-height)
A-Tilt Up - Red Nail (Precise kick sent upward, damage is high but very centered)
A-Tilt Forward - Throttle Kick (Pushes the opponent away with straight kick)
A-Tilt Backward - Blind Strike (Swings both arms behind his back)
A-Tilt Down - Black Nail (Drills down with both legs)

A-MOVES - ON FOOT smash
A-Smash Up - Hellfire (Points rifle up as it emanates blue flames)
A-Smash Side - Sixth Gear (Puts whole body into straightforward sucker punch)
A-Smash Down - Firestorm (Casually points rifle downward as blue flames light up and spread)

B-MOVES - ON BIKE
B - Shoot :: The rifle propped on Mach Rider´s motorcycle fires by itself, sending small orbs of an incandescent orange-red color straight forward, unaffected by gravity. They travel a fairly long way, but do minimal damage. They can be fired at a high rate, somewhere between Falco´s Blaster and the Super Scope. Mach Rider can fire these orbs while moving and not loose momentum, but they only travel half as far. This, aside from his B Up, is the only attack that Mach Rider can use while airborne.
B Up - Mach Spin :: Mach Rider props his bike up for a wheelie, but the front wheel spins extremely fast for a very short time, creating waves of wind around it. It traps enemies in and then sends them flying, but as mentioned lasts for a short while. Mach Rider is also boosted diagonally upward, but the boost is minimal.
B Side - Bomber Ball :: Mach Rider hurls a black, metallic orb a short distance forward, which explodes shortly afterward. The strength of the blast is slightly weaker than that of a Bob-omb. Mach Rider must wait until the Bob-omb explodes until he can throw another one.
B Down - Hop Off :: Mach Rider steps down from his bike and stands on foot, the animation taking a bit less than Zelda´s Transformation. Like with Wario´s Chopper, the bike is left where it is, but it cannot be damaged or ridden by other characters. It can however, be picked up, but characters will move very slowly under its weight. If the bike is sent off the stage, another one will fall from the sky immediately after.

B-MOVES - ON FOOT
B - Shoot :: Exactly like when Mach Rider is on his bike. However, he cannot continue running while shooting it, and must stop.
B Up - Turbo Boost :: Mach Rider becomes surrounded by raging blue fire, and shoots diagonally up at high speed. The attack does both high damage to intercepted foes and is one of the best recoveries in the game, sending him a high distance up. It has, however, a considerable amount of lag after execution.
B Side - Oil Drum :: Mach Rider takes out an oil drum about as tall as Kirby, colored red and rusting, and places it in front of him. If the oil drum is shot with any form of fire-based projectile weapon or attack (Such as Mach Rider´s shots, Mario´s Fireballs, Fox´s Fire Fox or Captain Falcon´s Falcon Boost) it will explode with the power of a Bob-omb, sending unfortunate victims far away with high damage and on fire. Mach Rider can have only have one oil drum out at a time. If this attack is Smashed, Mach Rider will throw the oil drum a short distance forward instead.
B - Ride :: Mach Rider hops on his bike if standing next to it, the animation being slightly shorter than Zelda´s Transformation. The move will only work if the bike is directly adjacent to him.

GRABS - ON BIKE
Grab - Side Reach (Mach Rider turns to the side and grabs at the foe wih his arm)
Hit - Wheel Spin (Holds the opponent up to let the spinning front wheel hit them)
Throw Up - Prize Shot (Flings the foe into the air and shoots them once)
Throw Side - Blast Kick (Holds the enemy up and kicks them away)
Throw Down - Road Rage (Drops the foe and lets the turning wheels bring the hurt)

GRABS - ON FOOT
Grab - Mach Reach (Very quickly reaches for the opponent with free hand)
Hit - Point-Blank (Shoots at the opponent from point-blank range)
Throw Up - Rapid Shot (Boosts the foe into the air with repeated shots)
Throw Side - Heave (Grabs foe with one hand, spins once and hurls them far)
Throw Down - Stomper (Casually drops foe and connects boot to face)

TAUNT - ON BIKE :: Faces screen and ***** rifle.
TAUNT - ON FOOT :: Turns to screen and ***** rifle.

FINAL SMASH - Blazing Barrel :: Mach Rider´s Final Smash is the same whether he is on his motorcycle or not. He raises his rifle up and pulls the trigger once. Five fireballs of bright orange flame, each about as large as Bowser, will be shot out, moving erratically in the stage and homing into nearby opponents. The fireballs are extinguished when they hit a battler or ten seconds after the execution of the Final Smash.

KIRBY COPY :: Regardless of whether he copies Mach Rider while he is on his bike or on foot, Kirby will only gain his helmet and rifle. He will be able to shoot the fireballs while running without stopping, however.

It could be fun, yanno.

That is a very, very well done moveset and I could definitely see it working in Smash. But IO somehow think that with Wario having his own chopper, Sakurai might view yet another motorcycle riding character as redundant. Still, he would be a cool addition so I wouldn't rule him out completely.

first of all

bumping thread

secondly i could see mach rider but he has some fierce competition in the retro category

there's little mac, rob, baloon fighter, and many more

either way i believe that pit and someone else will be the only two retros and all the others will be assists

Thanks for continuing to keep thids thread alive in my absence, guys. We'll keep this sucker going until December 3 or die trying!

I think there gonna release a roster of 50 characters(lets hope)40 isnt as big a jump for the amount from ssb to ssbm plus the wii can handle quite a lot.So im gonna do a 50 char roster(yet another lame roster)

Mario series:
Mario:Still the same(Dr mario costume)
Luigi:Has a new moveset including vacuum
Peach:Stays the same though B button different
Toad:NEWCOMER with new move set
Bowser:Still the same
Paper Mario:NEWCOMER similar to mario but some new moves
Bowser jr/Shadow mario:
Bowser jr:NEWCOMER is quite heavy and fast but lacks and recovery power has new moveset
Shadow Mario:NEWCOMER weaker than mario but higher jump but lighter new moveset including paint brush.
Baby Mario and Baby Luigi:NEWCOMER lightweigh new moveset work as team

Donkey Kong Series:
Donkey Kong:Still the same
Diddy Kong:NEWCOMER very fast with best DK series recovery
King Krool:NEWCOMER very powerful but cant recover that well or run

Metroid series:
Samus/Zero suit samus:
Samus:still the same
Zero suit Samus:NEWCOMERFaster than normal samus but weaker with attack
RIDLEY(WOOT WOOT):NEWCOMER:Largest chararcter though not the heaveyesy(lighter than ganondorf) attacks fast may make some fast combos and can recover very good(also he is resized)
Dark Samus:NEWCOMER Not a samus clone
Sylux:NEWCOMER Newmove set desighned for him(Almsot like samus but provide to him)

Pokemon series:
Pichachu:Still the same
JigglyPuff:Still the same
Ricario:NEWCOMER New move set is also heavy because of the steel side and high attck because of fighting
Mewtwo:Still the same


Fire emblem series:
Marth:Still the same
Black Knight:NEWCOMER(dont know anything about fire emblem)
One other random from fire emblem
Roy:Still the same

Legand of Zelda series:
Link:Still the same
Zelda:No sheik new down B abilitie
Ganondorf:Brand New moveset
Skull Kid MM:NEWCOMER I dont know how he works but he is a light weight
Wolf LInk and Midna:NEWCOMERAct as one chararcter
Cel Shaded Link(WW):NEWCOMER New move set though some similarities to old Young Link

F-Zero series:
Captain Falcon:still the same speed demon
Black shadow:NEWCOMER new move set

Wario Series:
Wario:NEWCOMER new move set heavy weight and strong but is slow and cant recovey well
Waluigi:NEWCOMER new move set 2nd tallest character(yes bigger than bowser but not quite ridley)Average speed great recovery lowest attack out of mario, luigi, wario and waluigi

Yoshi series:
Yoshi:Still the same Up B move now helps recovery(confirmed)


Fox series:
Fox:Always has blaster out(confirmed)
Wolf:NEWCOMER similar to fox but some new moves
Krystal:NEWCOMER new moveset
Falco:New move set

Kirby series:
Kirby:Still the same
Meta Knight:NEWCOMER Dont know much about him great recovery
King dedede:NEWCOMER heavyweight and new moveset(two jumps and a glide)

3rd parth series:
Snake:NEWCOMER dont know much about him
Sonic:NEWCOMER fastest and good 2 jumps weak attack but great attcking speed
Mega Man:NEWCOMER Newmove set

OTHER:
Ness:Still the same
Pit:NEWCOMER Dont know much about him great recovery


All double one like shadow mario do not count as seperate chars

Final smash transforms:
Bowser:Giga Bowser
Ganondorf:Ganon
Mewtwo:Ultra Mewtwo(Mewtwo with armour from the first movie)
Dark Samus:Metroid Prime(random either MPfirst form or MPsecond form)

Paper Marioaper Marios Final Smash is a random when he uses it him and a partner from Paper mario number 1 or PMATTYD.He and the partner do something to over power the screen

Luigi:He sends ghosts stored in his vacuum to KO all other on the screen
Skull Kid:Uses the moon to crush the screen while he floats away from the impact
Falco:Calls for arwings(not like in ssbm)these will track down one foe and kill him
Fox:Calls the great fox do Ko most people on the screen
Wolf:Same as Falco though uses his team

Yoshi:Calls a herd of yoshi to help him fight(these yoshi are weak like ssb yoshi on the stroy mode so about 1 hit will kill them)about 15 of them

Sonic:Calls for knuckles and tails they help fight act like normal chars though are made lightweight

Personally, I think you need more characters from original series to round out the roster. Supporting characters are all well and good, but leaving out Captain Olimar is just wrong.

I think Dr. Mario should be a Alternative Costume for Mario

I suppose it could happen. But if they program Doc's appearance in the game, they might as well alter his stats ever so slightly and give him his pills. Then they could give him his ow spot on the character selection screen...

 

[Arteen]

Archyp Cosh, your list looks very nice, and I agree with a lot of it.

- STARFOX -
Wolf - Replaces Falco. Villain, semi-important to the series. Has a mechanical eye. Also a rival to Fox! (Possible Fox Clone)
...
Falco - Could easily fill the place that I have for Wolf, either of them with an entirely new moveset. I think Wolf has a better chance due to being not only Fox's rival but ALSO a villain.

I'm on the side that prefers Falco over Wolf. Falco does have a few things going for him over Wolf. He was playable in Melee, which I think helps; he has appeared in all the Starfox games, while Wolf has appeared only in three; he's not a canine so he looks distinct from Fox and Krystal (Starfox has more than fox/wolf characters as important characters); he's important in his own right as Fox's longtime friend and most competent wingman; and Wolf technically was only a villain in SF64, since he was more-or-less a good guy in Assault and Command. Still, it's more-or-less a tossup, but I think Falco has the edge.

- WARIO -
Mona OR Captain Syrup - If Fire Emblem could pull enough weight for two people in Melee, then Warioware can too. Either a villainess or Wario's love interest. Also, Syrup is a female AND a villain which is rare enough in the Nintendo world.

I don't think the Wario games (especially as an extension of the Mario series) need more than Wario. Besides, none of the WarioWare characters stand out against any other character, and I don't think any of them are that important in the overall world of Nintendo.

- EARTHBOUND/MOTHER -
Lucas - Replaces Ness like Sakurai apparently wanted. They're similar characters anyway. Also, could be used to get America interested in Mother 3 before translation, similarly to the FE characters.
Kumatora - Because the Mother series needs a female. Similar reasons to above. A double whammy of realitvely unknown characters for an American marketing blitz.

I don't think replacing Ness, who has appeared internationally, with characters that are Japan-only is such a good idea. A series with an international presence should have some form of international representation, so Ness works perfectly. I'd contend that Earthbound/Mother doesn't need more than one rep, but if it was to have another rep, a Mother 3 character would be fine, in a FE-in-Melee sort of way. Giving the series only Japanese representation when it already has international representation seems more like a marketing ploy to get an international Mother 3 release.

- FIRE EMBLEM -
...

I think FE doesn't need more than two reps, and I don't think there's much to make any of the FE characters really stand out from any other.

- THIRD PARTY -
...
Sheena - Hear me out on this one. ToS was one of the best RPGs on the GCN, and re-introduced Tales to the modern Western audience. For characters from it, we have a few choices, but it comes down to this for me: they need more females so that leaves us with the choice between Collette, Presea, Raine or Sheena. Raine is a healer and light magic user, so she conflicts with Zelda; Collette is irritating and stupid; leaving the choice between Sheena and Presea. Judging by the current trend of female characters *cough*Zamus*cough*, I figured Sheena would have a better chance of being picked. Her move set is also far more magical (and therefore unique) than the straight-up axe-wielding physical attacks of Presea.

Not going to happen, but I'd love it if it did. I'd prefer Raine over the other characters, and I don't think her moveset would conflict with Zelda's. I can see her using more physical attacks than Zelda (and she doesn't need magic to make her kicks hurt), and she has a staff in addition. I think the team could make her unique. Sheena is more of a fighter than Raine though, so she'd be more likely (although Zelos, Kratos, and Lloyd are much more fun to play in ToS and would likely have a moveset that would fit better, or at least more easily in Brawl). Also, Sheena is more relevant to the story than Presea. And she has summons!

- OTHER POSSIBILITIES -
...
Isaac - If I'd had more room, I'd have added SOME Golden Sun character, and Isaac is the titular hero of the first part. Note that Felix can basically replace him with no problem if you prefer the second game.

I made some room for you.

Red/May/Other - Some Pokemon trainer. I know that most people are deathly allergic to the idea of trainers being a Pokemon rep, but they are kinda the main characters of the games as well as being the avatar for the player (especially in Battle Revolution). Also, it gets more Pokemon in there by giving them special move status for the trainers. Not that trainers don't have other items to play with - fishing rods, bikes, hammer/pick, radar, various stones, rocks, uh..cell phones...

The problem with trainers is that they fight with Pokemon, and I don't think that would work in Brawl. It would be pretty cool if alternate costumes were all the various trainer models from the games, and it would make sense if the character was referred to as "Trainer" rather than their specific names (to avoid a Daisy costume sort-of weirdness).

Hmmm... maybe. I know very little about the series, so could someone elaborate on how Issac's abilites might potentially be translated into a moveset?

The simple explanation is that he would play like Kratos or Zelos from Tales of Symphonia, with a good balance of sword and magic attacks.

The long explanation has pictures.
In the Golden Sun world, there are the four elements of alchemy; Mercury for water and ice; Venus for earth, stone, or plants; Mars for fire; Jupiter for wind and electricity. Magic that uses those elements is known as psynergy. Psynergy can be used for combat, but it can also be used in the overworld for tasks like mindreading, freezing water into pillars of ice, conjuring tornados, destroying rocks, or various feats of telekinesis. The power of alchemy was sealed away, so only a few people actually can use psynergy, and those that do are called adepts. There are also creatures called Djinn, one type for each element. Adepts find these creatures and they enhance their psynergy. They can unleash attacks on their own, but they can also be used for summons. In addition, many of the weapons in the game have unleashes, which are magically-enhanced strikes (randomly, when using a default physical strike for an attack, the weapon will instead use its unleash).

Isaac is a swordsman, so he can of course use various sword swipes for some of his attacks, but psynergy and other things open up so many more possibilities. For moves based on unleashes, there is Gaia Blade's "Titan Blade," where an ethereal sword strikes downward on an opponent, or Sol Blade's "Megiddo," where Isaac leaps into the air then swipes a giant molten sphere (possible recovery move?).

For psynergy, he has Ragnarok, where he strikes forward in unison with a large, glowing red ethereal sword (possible B-forward?), or Odyssey where he first pierces an enemy diagonally upwards and downwards with a pair of swords, then launches a massive sword forward into the enemy (possible final smash?). He has Quake, which summons an earthquake. He has Growth and Thorn which attack with thorns and vines. He has Spire, where he attacks with sharp stalactites. He has Gaia, where he attacks with a shower of boulders and energy.

As for djinn, as another final smash, he could summon Judgment. Judgment (a representation of the Christian concept) is the strongest Venus summon and would look awesome. Djinn could appear in their ethereal form (like they do when they attack in the game) during smash attacks.

 

[EggBomb]

I'm cutting my safety net a bit...my character list only has 38 characters in it. Why only 38? I feel it's a realistic number and is achievable by the dev team. I've divided it up by franchises and the number of characters belonging to that franchise is in parenthesis. Some explanation at the bottom.

Mario Franchise (5)
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Geno (Also 3rd Party: Square Enix)

Zelda Franchise (4)
6. Link
7. Zelda
8. Ganondorf (new moveset)
9. Young Link (new moveset and Wind Waker appearance)

Pokemon Franchise (4)
10. Pikachu
11. Jigglypuff
12. Mewtwo
13. Lucario

Kirby Franchise (3)
14. Kibry
15. Meta-Knight
16. King Dedede

Star Fox Franchise (3)
17. Fox
18. Falco (New moveset)
19. Krystal

Metroid Franchise (2)
20. Samus/Zero Suit Samus
21. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise (2)
22. Marth (see comments)
23. Ike

Donkey Kong Franchise (2)
24. Donkey Kong
25. Diddy Kong

Yoshi Franchise (1)
26. Yoshi

Warioware Franchise (1)
27. Wario

F-Zero Franchise (1)
28. Falcon

Earthbound Franchise (1)
29. Ness

New Franchises (3)
30. Olimar (Pikimin Franchise)
31. Tom Nook or Resetti (Animal Crossing Franchise)
32. Mii (Wii Games Franchise)

Retro Franchises (3)
33. Pit (Kid Icarus Franchise)
34. Ice Climbers (Ice Climber Franchise)
35. Mr. Game & Watch (G&W Franchise)

3rd Party Franchises (3)
36. Solid Snake (Konami: Metal Gear Franchise)
37. Sonic (Sega: Sonic the Hedgehog Franchise)
38. Megaman (Capcom: Megaman Franchise)


Other Comments:

Out of 38 of the characters on my list 20 are completely new (including ZSS and the decloned). Many of my picks were based on the fact that there might be under 40 characters in Brawl.

Retro Returns! I know, I know, The Iceclimbers and Mr. G&W are speculated to get the cut, but I believe that they will both return. Why? Simple. They already have working movesets and were both very unique in terms of gameplay. All these characters need is a little tweaking to throw them back into the brawl. The Iceclimbers would be given a new stage, one that possibly doesn't move.

There Can Be Only One (blue haired dude). I've always thought that Ike would replace Marth, and that may still be the case. However, I decided to include Marth because he'd retain his old Melee moveset while Ike would get an entirely new one. It is possible that Ike could get Marth's old moveset (or some of it) and a new FE character will be included in the vacant spot.

It's Only a Flesh Wound! As much as I'd love to see the Black Knight in brawl, I don't think it's going to happen. I doubt Ganondorf is going to be a Falcon clone this time around and if he is given his TP sword then the Black Knight would lose much uniqueness.

JUMANJI! Animal Crossing characters. Tom Nook being in the background of Smashville doesn't neccessarily count him out in my book. I do think that an Animal Crossing character will appear in Brawl, and if Nook can't get in Resetti is my backup. Nook has been referenced a lot in the Nintendo universe the Tanuki suit in SM3 could've been the start of him and Tom Nook character like appearences in games like Super Mario Sunshine shows his popularity.

I'm not 100% completed with this list, and will make changes as time goes by. The above problems (Retro, FE and AC) are the parts most susceptible to change.

 

[EggBomb]

(sorry double post) was having problems with edit.

 

[the grim lizard]

I have to say...I really really glad most of you people aren't picking the actual lineup for who's in Brawl. -_-

 

[EggBomb]

I have to say...I really really glad most of you people aren't picking the actual lineup for who's in Brawl. -_-

Do you have a realistic lineup I could look at?

 

[Creo]

I'm cutting my safety net...my character list only has 36 characters in it. Why only 36? I feel it's a realistic number and is achievable by the dev team. I've divided it up by franchises and the number of characters belonging to that franchise is in parenthesis. Some explanation at the bottom.

Mario Franchise (5)
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Geno (Also 3rd Party: Square Enix)

Zelda Franchise (4)
6. Link
7. Zelda
8. Ganondorf (new moveset)
9. Young Link (new moveset and Wind Waker appearance)

Pokemon Franchise (4)
10. Pikachu
11. Jigglypuff
12. Mewtwo
13. Lucario

Kirby Franchise (3)
14. Kibry
15. Meta-Knight
16. King Dedede

Star Fox Franchise (3)
17. Fox
18. Falco (New moveset)
19. Krystal

Metroid Franchise (2)
20. Samus/Zero Suit Samus
21. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise (2)
22. Marth (see comments)
23. Ike

Donkey Kong Franchise (2)
24. Donkey Kong
25. Diddy Kong

Yoshi Franchise (1)
26. Yoshi

Warioware Franchise (1)
27. Wario

New Franchises (3)
28. Olimar (Pikimin Franchise)
29. Tom Nook or Resetti (Animal Crossing Franchise)
30. Mii (Wii Games Franchise)

Retro Franchises (3)
31. Pit (Kid Icarus Franchise)
32. Ice Climbers (Ice Climber Franchise)
33. Mr. Game & Watch (G&W Franchise)

3rd Party Franchises (3)
34. Solid Snake (Konami: Metal Gear Franchise)
35. Sonic (Sega: Sonic the Hedgehog Franchise)
36. Megaman (Capcom: Megaman Franchise)


Other Comments:

Out of 36 of the characters on my list 20 are completely new (including ZSS and the decloned). Many of my picks were based on the fact that there might be under 40 characters in Brawl.

Retro Returns! I know, I know, The Iceclimbers and Mr. G&W are speculated to get the cut, but I believe that they will both return. Why? Simple. They already have working movesets and were both very unique in terms of gameplay. All these characters need is a little tweaking to throw them back into the brawl. The Iceclimbers would be given a new stage, one that possibly doesn't move.

There Can Be Only One (blue haired dude). I've always thought that Ike would replace Marth, and that may still be the case. However, I decided to include Marth because he'd retain his old Melee moveset while Ike would get an entirely new one. It is possible that Ike could get Marth's old moveset (or some of it) and a new FE character will be included in the vacant spot.

It's Only a Flesh Wound! As much as I'd love to see the Black Knight in brawl, I don't think it's going to happen. I doubt Ganondorf is going to be a Falcon clone this time around and if he is given his TP sword then the Black Knight would lose much uniqueness.

JUMANJI! Animal Crossing characters. Tom Nook being in the background of Smashville doesn't neccessarily count him out in my book. I do think that an Animal Crossing character will appear in Brawl, and if Nook can't get in Resetti is my backup. Nook has been referenced a lot in the Nintendo universe the Tanuki suit in SM3 could've been the start of him and Tom Nook character like appearences in games like Super Mario Sunshine shows his popularity.

I'm not 100% completed with this list, and will make changes as time goes by. The above problems (Retro, FE and AC) are the parts most susceptible to change.

I give your list a...87/100. Reasons below:

Mario Series
-Geno probably won't be in unless he takes Megaman or NiGHTS spot.

Zelda Franchise
-Fine but forgot Tingle.

Pokemon
Okay.

Kirby Franchise
-I don't like DeDeDe and personally think he will be an Assist Trophie.

Starfox
Fine. I ain't too crazy on Wolf so no complaints.

Metroid
Great. Ridley for Brawl!

Fire Emblem
No Marth. I think Ike and Hector.

Donkey Kong
Good but forgot Kaptain K. Rool.

Yoshi Franchise
-Maybe Kamek as an Assist Trophie?

Wario Ware
Yeah...

New Franchises
Olimar FTW!
Nook and Resetti = No for me.
Mii...sorry.

Retro characters
All the way.

Third Party
Snake
Sonic
NiGHTS...not Megaman.

 

[Kunitsuna]

That is a very, very well done moveset and I could definitely see it working in Smash. But IO somehow think that with Wario having his own chopper, Sakurai might view yet another motorcycle riding character as redundant. Still, he would be a cool addition so I wouldn't rule him out completely.

I think he´s different enough from Wario, but I do see your point. Maybe if he never got off his bike, like OysterMeister pointed out. Iunno. I might revise his moveset later.

But meanwhile, let me introduce to you my newest list. Before you go clamoring for Wolf or the Black Knight, however, I´d like to point that this is who I really think is going to be in in SSBB, not who I hope will be in SSBB. So, lesse...

01. Mario
Confirmed. Moving on.

02. Luigi
He´s the second most popular character of the biggest videogame franchise ever. Why not do the math? I do think that Luigi will be given at least one more original move this time though, possibly having to do with the Poltergust 3000. Just because Sakurai´s not a fan of clones anymore.

03. Princess Peach
An obvious shoe-in, having starred in SSBM and being one of the most famous videogame characters. I think that for her Up B, the parasol will be replaced with Parry from Super Princess Peach. It´s possible that the Peach Bomber will turn into the Anger emotion from the same game, but that may be asking too much.

04. Bowser
Confirmed. Hopefully he´ll be less laggy this time, but I have high expectations for him. Love his new look by the way.

05. Bowser Jr.
On of the most-wanted Mario characters for this game. Bowser Jr. has starred as main antagonist in two of the biggest games of his franchise in recent years: Super Mario Sunshine and New Super Mario Bros. E. Gadd´s Brush provides more than enough techniques and abilities for a completely original moveset, and no other Mario character has chances as high as him. Geno is third party and comparatively little-known, Fawful is obscure and Sakurai had no idea of who he was, Daisy, Petey Piranha and Waluigi are filler characters that did not figure in the poll, Toad did not appear in the poll and his appearance as both stage backdrop and B-move for Peach demonstrate that he´s not important enough to Sakurai to justify more than an Assist Trophy, Paper Mario is Mario (and the 2D character spot is taken) and everyone else is either generic or obscure, or both. So there.

06. Yoshi
Confirmed. Many thought that the babies from Yoshi´s Island would ride him and possibly even affect his moveset, but Sakurai demonstrated that he won´t fix if it ain´t broke.

07. Donkey Kong
Confirmed. Looks the same as always.

08. Diddy Kong
First off, moveset is not a problem for Diddy Kong, having access to an electric guitar, dual peanut guns, a barrel jetpack, monkey acrobatics, a kart, a plane and a raft, and several large animals to boot. But that can also be said for many competitors. So why Diddy Kong? Popularity. Everyone expects him to get in and he was one of the most requested characters in Sakurai´s poll. Well known, star of the recently re-released Diddy Kong Racing, he´s a bit of a no-brainer. The reason why I think he´ll fight alone instead of tag-team with Dixie is because it limits his moveset, as Dixie doesn´t have nearly as many techniques and having Diddy do everything would be senseless, but also because I think that Sakurai will include the Ice Climbers as the tag-teaming characters. A second duet would take away the originality of the idea.

09. Wario
Confirmed. WarioWare is a relatively new franchise and doesn´t garner enough popularity to have a second addition. There is nobody in the franchise who comes even close to Wario in terms of popularity, so the idea that a second character from the series will be added is little more than wishful thinking.

10. Pit
Confirmed. It´s nice that Sakurai is giving retro characters a new look, but he´s a bit too Kingdom Heartsy for my tastes. Oh, well. It´s what´s in.

11. Link (of Ordon)
Confirmed. Link is based off of his appearance in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, so we can expect other aspects of him to change accordingly. Like many, I wouldn´t be surprised to see his Boomerang updated to the Gale Boomerang, and the Clawshot replacing the Hookshot for grabs.

12. Zelda (of Twilight)
Confirmed. Although a brunette, which is odd since she hasn´t done that since her sprited days, Zelda is generally based off of Twilight Princess like Link is. However, Sakurai hasn´t changed her techniques to suit what she did in TP, which means that again he isn´t making changes where it isn´t necessary.

13. Ganondorf
Ganondorf will obviously get his Twilight Princess looks as well. It´s very possible that Sakurai will give him his sword to herald his declonification, which he seems very keen on doing for this game (and cutting Ganondorf is not an option). However, Ganondorf could also be an original character without his sword, so that´s still up in the air.

14. Midna
Midna appeared in the poll, she was one of the most important characters in Twilight Princess--which SSBB is pushing in the Zelda department--, she´s a female (which is points in Sakurai´s book) and has a number of techniques (hair, phasing/portals, dark magic, area attack) to work with. I don´t think that she´ll be riding Wolf Link, although I do think it´s still a definite possibility. Midna appeared on the poll as riding Wolf Link and that´s how you control her through the game, but I think that Sakurai will simply recognize that it´s a lot easier to make Midna go on foot--and Link is already in the game. Either way, I´m sure she´ll appear. Tingle isn´t popular in the West and Nintendo is acknowledging it, and he didn´t appear in TP. Sadly, everyone else in the Zelda universe also loses to Midna, because of her position as new character from TP. And let´s face it, Twilight Princess is the Zelda that SSBB is representing, just like how it represented Ocarina of Time in SSBM and that´s pretty much the only reason why Sheik and Young Link got in. If it wasn´t made clear, I think that Midna will show up in her cursed (imp) form, for obvious reasons. I won´t discard the possibility of her taking on her real appearance for her Final Smash.

15. Pikachu
Confirmed. Yeah, let´s continue. I think Pikachu will be the same as it´s always been, maybe a little faster but I doubt it.

16. Jigglypuff
The immortal, inmutable Jiggs. Although its popularity has waned since Super Smash Bros. 64--even in Japan--its presence in two last games, its original moves and the fact that nobody really despises it has secured it a spot in SSBB. I really don´t see it leaving, or changing much for that matter.

17. Mewtwo
Mewtwo is a similar case to Jigglypuff. Everybody knows it and to some degree likes it, and there is no real need for its disappearance or replacement considering how it has an original moveset. If anything, Sakurai will probably realize that it was very hard to use in SSBM and will make it a more accessible character, as he seems to want to make the game easier in general anyway. Why Mewtwo over Gardevoir? In the end, they´re similar Pokémon, and Mewtwo wins because it was in SSBM and therefore will be much easier to program into SSBB. If Sakurai makes anything of Gardevoir´s appearance in the polls, I don´t think it´ll more than a note to self to make sure Gardevoir is a Poké Ball Pokémon. If Deoxys didn´t get in, then Gardevoir is a very long shot.

18. Munchlax
Everyone knows that a Pokémon from Generation IV (The Diamond and Pearl one) will appear, because the games have made a gigantic splash worldwide. But when considering which Pokémon it will be, everyone seems to ignore Munchlax´s outstanding chances. It was featured in Destiny Deoxys, a movie released long before the rest of Generation IV was unveiled, and since then has steadily gained popularity in the East much like Jigglypuff did when Pokémon was in its Gameboy days. It appears in a myriad of memorabilia, was featured along with Pikachu in Pokémon Dash and a main character in the anime series catches one. Most people seem to dislike him because he´s not much of a breakaway from the usual Super Smash Bros. Pokémon (small, cutesy), and that´s fine. If it were up to me I´d put Carnivine in Brawl, darnit. However, you have to recognize that out of all Diamond and Pearl´s Pokémon that are suitable for a fighting game, Munchlax is the one with the most right to call it itself the representative of its generation. Lucario seems to be the most likely contender, and the race between the two is admittedly tight. Lucario was also featured in a movie, and it´s quite well-liked in the West. But the truth is that--aside from the fact that Sakurai will and is listening to Japan more than the rest of the world (Japanese-only poll, anyone?), Lucario lacks the visible popularity. He wasn´t in the poll (but then again neither was Munchlax), there´s no noticeable love for him. I´m not sure that Sakurai will pick up to just how many people want him in. I would not be surprised to see the Wave-Guiding Pokémon instead of Munchlax, but my money is still on this one.

19. Kirby
Confirmed. It wasn´t like Sakurai, the creator of Kirby, wasn´t going to include him, anyway.

20. Meta Knight
Confirmed. Can you notice how Sakurai isn´t afraid to include more of his own creations anymore?

21. King Dedede
Which brings me to him. King Dedede was the most requested character in Sakurai´s poll, demonstrating that popular approval of him is stellarly high. Furthermore, King Dedede is Sakurai´s own creation, and the third most popular character in the Kirby franchise. The people like him and the man likes him. In conclusion, anyone who questions King Dedede´s possibilities of appearing in Super Smash Bros. Brawl needs to have an incredibly good argument. Regarding moves, King Dedede would obviously be floaty, but also has several mallet techniques of his own as well as unique abilities. If the situation gets dire, he could even have Kirby´s Side B attack.

22. Samus
Confirmed. Look at her Power Suit shine!

23. Zero-Suit Samus
Confirmed. Zero-Suit Samus has by far generated the most controversy among Super Smash Bros. fanatics. Right now the situation seems to indicate that the only way to play as her will be by using Samus´ Final Smash, which is a highly unorthodox decision. However, it doesn´t change the fact that she is a completely different character and take the same time to program as any other, for which I´m including her in this list. But what if Zero-Suit Samus isn´t a full-fledged character? The fact that she can "change" to Whip mode seems to suggest that her only way of attacking besides her body will be the Galactic Federation pistol in its two different forms. Either way, that remains to be seen.

24. Ridley
Ridley is the only contender for Metroid. Either he is added or nobody other than Samus is. He was the only Metroid character to feature in Sakurai´s poll (and ranked quite high), has potential for a moveset to call his own and would bring something very new to SSBB in the form of a heavy floater; not to mention that Sakurai is very keen on aerial combat this time around. I agree that Ridley will be difficult to get into the game without making him look awkward due to body structure and the size of his wings, but am certain that Sakurai´s willing to work around these difficulties. An idea that springs to mind would be to have Ridley´s wings be smaller than normal, and only extend them to full size when he is jumping. Either way, I think that his appearance is completely plausible and extremely likely. I´m not a big fan of Ridley--personally--but am convinced that he´ll make it in.

25. Fox
Confirmed. Again we see that his moves are the same as in SSBM, even though his look is straight out of Command.

26. Falco
Did you notice how I kept pointing out that Sakurai has kept things the same where it wasn´t necessary to change them when it comes to characters? I did have a point there. Falco is an important and well-liked character, not only by the Super Smash Bros. community but also by everyone who knows of the Star Fox franchise, and seeing how he already is in SSBM it would make little sense to not welcome him into the next installation. Sakurai has stressed how he doesn´t want clones in SSBB, which is where Falco´s new weapons, look and abilities coming from Assault enter the scene. I think that Falco will be making an appearance in SSBB either as a completely original character or at least having a couple moves to call entirely his own. Why does he win against Wolf? Because he was already in SSBM, because Wolf is similar to Fox in appearance and because there hasn´t been much visible support for Wolf to appear in SSBB. Without a clear newcomer wanted, the most logical thing is to bring the guys from the last game over to this one.

27. Krystal
Krystal was one of the most highly requested newcomers for SSBB, and the only Star Fox new character who was really requested. Her relevance to Star Fox Adventures and Assault, as well as the fact that she can draw from both her staff and her futuristic weapons for techniques, as well as her status as female, combine to make her an obvious shoe-in as the newcomer from her franchise. While I think that it would be great if Krystal combined her staff powers with her Assault look and gadgets, I think that Sakurai will go solely with Assault Krystal in order to keep with futuristic feel of the Star Fox roster.

28. Ike
Ike is another shoe-in; request in poll, general popularity in East and West, starred in two FE games, advertises Goddess of Dawn, perfectly fit for a fighting game. Similar appearance, the fact that he wields a sword and his position as twice-Lord also make me think that he will replace Marth in this game, who, while rightfully an important character to the franchise, has sadly fallen out of relevance. Ike could even inherit Marth´s moveset, making his inclusion that much easier.

29. Roy
Let´s face it: Roy doesn´t really deserve to be in SSBB. He starred one of the more mediocre games of the franchise--and only that one--his presence in SSBM was only for the sake of avertisement and brings nothing original or new to the fray (male, fire user, swordsman). So why is Sakurai going to bring him back? Because he can very easily be remade into an original character with moves of his own, and then he´s a perfect fit. Roy at least has presence in the West thanks to his inclusion in the last Super Smash Bros., and thus wins over all the other Fire Emblem contenders. Eliwood, Lyndis and Hector are nice, but Japan didn´t like the portable Fire Emblems. Nabarl, Ayra and Oguma are cool, but nobody outside of Japan has a clue of who they are. The Black Knight is popular, but the position of heavy evil swordsman has been (potentially) claimed by Ganondorf and Ike is already the representative of Path of Radiance and Goddess of Dawn. The only other Fire Emblem character who I think will make it in is...

30. Sigurd
Sigurd seems like an odd choice to most. He´s not known outside of Japan either, and he´s male and weilds a sword, so nothing impressive or new there. Why? Because of popularity with the people and the creator. Sigurd was also requested in Sakurai´s poll, and quite a bit, as well as protagonizes what is arguably the most popular and best-liked Fire Emblem in Japan. Unlike Ike or Roy, he´s from the older installations to the franchise, something that is left without representatives now that Marth is leaving, and he wins against every other retro character from his series thanks to sheer popularity. The second side of this reasoning is shakier. It´s commonly stated that Sakurai likes the character Sigurd, and has already considered his inclusion in the Super Smash Bros. franchise. If this is true, then his chances are basically guaranteed, but either way I think that he´ll be the new Fire Emblem character this time around, along with shoe-in Ike. The most likely contender against him, I think, would be the Black Knight, but I think Sigurd still wins (barely).

31. Lucas
Sakurai has said that he would have replaced Ness with the main MOTHER3 character had the game been released--as originally planned--before Super Smash Bros. Melee. Now that MOTHER3 is (finally) out, with hugely positive reactions in Japan, there is no reason why Sakurai won´t due what he had planned originally. Lucas could potentially inherit all of Ness´ moveset or have moves of his own, but also comes with the added bonus of having the perfect Final Smash: PK LOVE. The Earthbound series has never been too big in the USA and Ness has never had huge support to remain in SSBM, so I don´t think that the Studio will lose sleep over having no international representative for a franchise that is as niche as they come.

32. Captain Falcon
Do I really have to state my reasoning? Samurai Goro is confirmed as Assist Trophy, SSBB has been revealed to include an F-Zero symbol, Captain Falcon has been in the last two games and is the protagonist of his franchise. What else do you need? The only thing that I don´t think will happen is the inclusion of another F-Zero character. Samurai Goro was the most likely contender, and he didn´t make it. I really believe that F-Zero will be a one-character franchise in Super Smash Bros. for third time.

33. Animal Crosser
Or whatever he/she ends up being called. By Animal Crosser I refer to the human character that the player controls in the Animal Crossing games, who can be male or female and whose appearance can be changed by the player. Super Smash Bros. Brawl has already been revealed to feature Animal Crossing as a franchise through the Smashville stage, and characters Tom Nook and KK Slider--two of the biggest candidates--were deconfirmed by being in the stage background (the idea that either will be playable and then disappear from the background kinda borders on denial). Many human villagers also show up in the background of set stage, but this makes perfect sense. The Animal Crosser would be the only character whose appearance you can customize, answering to the call of a customizeable character in SSBB but still remaining within the Nintendo all-star feel. The Mii is the other candidate for this niche, but the Mii is a simplistic avatar of you who doesn´t really belong to a franchise any more than R.O.B. does. Animal Crosser has a viable moveset through several events and functions in Animal Crossing as well as all the available items and furniture. Animal Crossing is obviously going to get representation in SSBB, and in my opinion the Animal Crosser is by far the most likely candidate. Did I mention he/she appeared in Sakurai´s poll? Oh, yeah, Mr. Resetti; forgot to address him. People seem to believe that because he´s not part of the Smashville stage he must be the playable character. Mr. Resetti appears when you reset your game. Why would he be hanging out in the village? For all we know he could be hanging out in the village, as the characters seem to change with the time of day and we´ve only seen a few screenshots. The Animal Crosser is the true main character of the game, and it would make little sense to ditch him/her over one who is relatively minor.

34. Captain Olimar
One of the few new Nintendo franchises that has been very successful and warrants representation is Pikmin. In terms of who will do the representation the answer is unanimous in Japan and the rest of the world: Captain Olimar (and his Pikmin). As pointed out by many, Captain Olimar has potential for the most original moveset in Super Smash Bros. and would come as fresh representation for a series that deserves it. I honestly see no reason why he wouldn´t included beyond time constraints.

35. Ice Climbers
It seems to be a popular claim that the Ice Climbers will not return for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Why? They are one of the most unique characters in the game, being two-in-one, and have a perfectly workable as well as original moveset going for them. The most popular argument as to why they should be ditched is the fact that many other retro characters, virtually obscure and unknown, are also waiting for their time in the sun. Why? The list of possible retro/obscure characters for this game goes on forever as demonstrated by parrothead, and the Ice Climbers are already one-of-a-kind, easy to implement thanks to their appearance in SSBM and are generally well-liked. Sakurai won´t fix it if it ain´t broke, which brings me to my next character.

36. Mr. Game & Watch
Honestly, why not? Mr. Game & Watch was highly original in SSBM as the only 2D character and once again has a fully working and original moveset to bring into SSBB, so I think that Sakurai will bring him over as well. He´s vital to Nintendo history, and I don´t why he would be willingly ditched when Sakurai wants to get as much as he can into the game.

37. Balloon Fighter
The competition for new retro character is fierce, with literally hundreds of potential contenders. So why Balloon Fighter? Let´s see. He appeared in the poll. Sakurai considered him for SSBM, and it is rumored that he even appeared in the beta version of the game. Thanks to his balloons, he has potential to be one of the most original characters in SSBB as well as go with the aerial combat theme that Sakurai is pushing for. Admittedly, there are many other characters that could take his place, but I think he´s the safest bet.

38. Sonic the Hedgehog
Seriously, he´s a shoe-in. SEGA is in great terms with Nintendo, loves the Wii, will have him and Mario face off in the Olympics, and Nintendo is interested in the idea. He was the most requested third-party character. What is anyone expecting other than his appearance?

39. Snake
Confirmed. Never thought you´d see him and Kirby in the same game, did you?

40. Stafy
The surprise! The WTF character, as one would say. But why Stafy? Because he´s one of the most solid Japan-only characters that figured in Sakurai´s poll. He has four games under his belt and is still going strong in the East. Sakurai could see him as the best candidate to bring his franchise to the West through popularity by appearing in SSBB. Stafy has more than enough friends and abilities to get into a fighting game, as well as some very unique aspects (fully underwater stage much?). Other Japan-only characters who figured in the poll, such as Demille, are currently not getting new games out and therefore lose to Stafy. Besides, Stafy is very much on the same vein as Kirby, and let´s all remember who made that pink puffball up.

So yeah, that´s my roster. Anyone who wants to argue against me, please do; that´s kinda why I made the list.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

Best one so far ^^.

I do, however, strongly disagree with the Roy and Siguard part. Over Marth? Hell no.

Not a big fan of Ridley!? *gasp*

 

[Dark Sonic]

Roy and Sigurd over Marth. They're not nearly as important to the series no matter how you look at it. Marth is also more popular than Sigurd now that he's appeared in Melee.

 

[Wiseguy]

The simple explanation is that he would play like Kratos or Zelos from Tales of Symphonia, with a good balance of sword and magic attacks.

The long explanation has pictures.
In the Golden Sun world, there are the four elements of alchemy; Mercury for water and ice; Venus for earth, stone, or plants; Mars for fire; Jupiter for wind and electricity. Magic that uses those elements is known as psynergy. Psynergy can be used for combat, but it can also be used in the overworld for tasks like mindreading, freezing water into pillars of ice, conjuring tornados, destroying rocks, or various feats of telekinesis. The power of alchemy was sealed away, so only a few people actually can use psynergy, and those that do are called adepts. There are also creatures called Djinn, one type for each element. Adepts find these creatures and they enhance their psynergy. They can unleash attacks on their own, but they can also be used for summons. In addition, many of the weapons in the game have unleashes, which are magically-enhanced strikes (randomly, when using a default physical strike for an attack, the weapon will instead use its unleash).

Isaac is a swordsman, so he can of course use various sword swipes for some of his attacks, but psynergy and other things open up so many more possibilities. For moves based on unleashes, there is Gaia Blade's "Titan Blade," where an ethereal sword strikes downward on an opponent, or Sol Blade's "Megiddo," where Isaac leaps into the air then swipes a giant molten sphere (possible recovery move?).

For psynergy, he has Ragnarok, where he strikes forward in unison with a large, glowing red ethereal sword (possible B-forward?), or Odyssey where he first pierces an enemy diagonally upwards and downwards with a pair of swords, then launches a massive sword forward into the enemy (possible final smash?). He has Quake, which summons an earthquake. He has Growth and Thorn which attack with thorns and vines. He has Spire, where he attacks with sharp stalactites. He has Gaia, where he attacks with a shower of boulders and energy.

As for djinn, as another final smash, he could summon Judgment. Judgment (a representation of the Christian concept) is the strongest Venus summon and would look awesome. Djinn could appear in their ethereal form (like they do when they attack in the game) during smash attacks.

Thanks for that, Arteen. I can definitely see how Issac has the potential to be an exceptionally ubique addition to the roster. I'll give some serious consideration to altering my list in some way to accomidate Issac...

I'm cutting my safety net a bit...my character list only has 38 characters in it. Why only 38? I feel it's a realistic number and is achievable by the dev team. I've divided it up by franchises and the number of characters belonging to that franchise is in parenthesis. Some explanation at the bottom.

Mario Franchise (5)
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Geno (Also 3rd Party: Square Enix)

Zelda Franchise (4)
6. Link
7. Zelda
8. Ganondorf (new moveset)
9. Young Link (new moveset and Wind Waker appearance)

Pokemon Franchise (4)
10. Pikachu
11. Jigglypuff
12. Mewtwo
13. Lucario

Kirby Franchise (3)
14. Kibry
15. Meta-Knight
16. King Dedede

Star Fox Franchise (3)
17. Fox
18. Falco (New moveset)
19. Krystal

Metroid Franchise (2)
20. Samus/Zero Suit Samus
21. Ridley

Fire Emblem Franchise (2)
22. Marth (see comments)
23. Ike

Donkey Kong Franchise (2)
24. Donkey Kong
25. Diddy Kong

Yoshi Franchise (1)
26. Yoshi

Warioware Franchise (1)
27. Wario

F-Zero Franchise (1)
28. Falcon

Earthbound Franchise (1)
29. Ness

New Franchises (3)
30. Olimar (Pikimin Franchise)
31. Tom Nook or Resetti (Animal Crossing Franchise)
32. Mii (Wii Games Franchise)

Retro Franchises (3)
33. Pit (Kid Icarus Franchise)
34. Ice Climbers (Ice Climber Franchise)
35. Mr. Game & Watch (G&W Franchise)

3rd Party Franchises (3)
36. Solid Snake (Konami: Metal Gear Franchise)
37. Sonic (Sega: Sonic the Hedgehog Franchise)
38. Megaman (Capcom: Megaman Franchise)


Other Comments:

Out of 38 of the characters on my list 20 are completely new (including ZSS and the decloned). Many of my picks were based on the fact that there might be under 40 characters in Brawl.

Retro Returns! I know, I know, The Iceclimbers and Mr. G&W are speculated to get the cut, but I believe that they will both return. Why? Simple. They already have working movesets and were both very unique in terms of gameplay. All these characters need is a little tweaking to throw them back into the brawl. The Iceclimbers would be given a new stage, one that possibly doesn't move.

There Can Be Only One (blue haired dude). I've always thought that Ike would replace Marth, and that may still be the case. However, I decided to include Marth because he'd retain his old Melee moveset while Ike would get an entirely new one. It is possible that Ike could get Marth's old moveset (or some of it) and a new FE character will be included in the vacant spot.

It's Only a Flesh Wound! As much as I'd love to see the Black Knight in brawl, I don't think it's going to happen. I doubt Ganondorf is going to be a Falcon clone this time around and if he is given his TP sword then the Black Knight would lose much uniqueness.

JUMANJI! Animal Crossing characters. Tom Nook being in the background of Smashville doesn't neccessarily count him out in my book. I do think that an Animal Crossing character will appear in Brawl, and if Nook can't get in Resetti is my backup. Nook has been referenced a lot in the Nintendo universe the Tanuki suit in SM3 could've been the start of him and Tom Nook character like appearences in games like Super Mario Sunshine shows his popularity.

I'm not 100% completed with this list, and will make changes as time goes by. The above problems (Retro, FE and AC) are the parts most susceptible to change.

My opinions on Marth, ICs and G&W are no secret, but I wouldn't be upset to see them return.

As for BK being too similar to TP Ganondorf - I wouldn't be too sure of that. BK is more of a "pure" swordfighter, much like Marth and Roy, while Ganondorf could potentially have access to various punches and kicks (in addition to his sword) in keeping with the spirit of Ganny's Melee moveset.

So anyway, it's a great roster and one that I think most people could definitely live with. 9.5/10

I have to say...I really really glad most of you people aren't picking the actual lineup for who's in Brawl. -_-

Do you have a realistic lineup I could look at?

He has a point, Grim. You've never been shy about critiquing the opinions of others, I think it's high time you put your money where you mouth is and posted your own vision of the final character roster.

Seriously, I'm interested in which characters you think stand the best chot of appearing.

I think he´s different enough from Wario, but I do see your point. Maybe if he never got off his bike, like OysterMeister pointed out. Iunno. I might revise his moveset later.

But meanwhile, let me introduce to you my newest list. Before you go clamoring for Wolf or the Black Knight, however, I´d like to point that this is who I really think is going to be in in SSBB, not who I hope will be in SSBB. So,


01. Mario
Confirmed. Moving on.

02. Luigi
He´s the second most popular character of the biggest videogame franchise ever. Why not do the math? I do think that Luigi will be given at least one more original move this time though, possibly having to do with the Poltergust 3000. Just because Sakurai´s not a fan of clones anymore.

03. Princess Peach
An obvious shoe-in, having starred in SSBM and being one of the most famous videogame characters. I think that for her Up B, the parasol will be replaced with Parry from Super Princess Peach. It´s possible that the Peach Bomber will turn into the Anger emotion from the same game, but that may be asking too much.

04. Bowser
Confirmed. Hopefully he´ll be less laggy this time, but I have high expectations for him. Love his new look by the way.

05. Bowser Jr.
On of the most-wanted Mario characters for this game. Bowser Jr. has starred as main antagonist in two of the biggest games of his franchise in recent years: Super Mario Sunshine and New Super Mario Bros. E. Gadd´s Brush provides more than enough techniques and abilities for a completely original moveset, and no other Mario character has chances as high as him. Geno is third party and comparatively little-known, Fawful is obscure and Sakurai had no idea of who he was, Daisy, Petey Piranha and Waluigi are filler characters that did not figure in the poll, Toad did not appear in the poll and his appearance as both stage backdrop and B-move for Peach demonstrate that he´s not important enough to Sakurai to justify more than an Assist Trophy, Paper Mario is Mario (and the 2D character spot is taken) and everyone else is either generic or obscure, or both. So there.

06. Yoshi
Confirmed. Many thought that the babies from Yoshi´s Island would ride him and possibly even affect his moveset, but Sakurai demonstrated that he won´t fix if it ain´t broke.

07. Donkey Kong
Confirmed. Looks the same as always.

08. Diddy Kong
First off, moveset is not a problem for Diddy Kong, having access to an electric guitar, dual peanut guns, a barrel jetpack, monkey acrobatics, a kart, a plane and a raft, and several large animals to boot. But that can also be said for many competitors. So why Diddy Kong? Popularity. Everyone expects him to get in and he was one of the most requested characters in Sakurai´s poll. Well known, star of the recently re-released Diddy Kong Racing, he´s a bit of a no-brainer. The reason why I think he´ll fight alone instead of tag-team with Dixie is because it limits his moveset, as Dixie doesn´t have nearly as many techniques and having Diddy do everything would be senseless, but also because I think that Sakurai will include the Ice Climbers as the tag-teaming characters. A second duet would take away the originality of the idea.

09. Wario
Confirmed. WarioWare is a relatively new franchise and doesn´t garner enough popularity to have a second addition. There is nobody in the franchise who comes even close to Wario in terms of popularity, so the idea that a second character from the series will be added is little more than wishful thinking.

10. Pit
Confirmed. It´s nice that Sakurai is giving retro characters a new look, but he´s a bit too Kingdom Heartsy for my tastes. Oh, well. It´s what´s in.

Agreed on all counts, particularily your reasoning fro why Bowser Jr. deserves a spot over all other Mario characters. Though I still say Paper Mario would rock...

11. Link (of Ordon)
Confirmed. Link is based off of his appearance in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, so we can expect other aspects of him to change accordingly. Like many, I wouldn´t be surprised to see his Boomerang updated to the Gale Boomerang, and the Clawshot replacing the Hookshot for grabs.

12. Zelda (of Twilight)
Confirmed. Although a brunette, which is odd since she hasn´t done that since her sprited days, Zelda is generally based off of Twilight Princess like Link is. However, Sakurai hasn´t changed her techniques to suit what she did in TP, which means that again he isn´t making changes where it isn´t necessary.

13. Ganondorf
Ganondorf will obviously get his Twilight Princess looks as well. It´s very possible that Sakurai will give him his sword to herald his declonification, which he seems very keen on doing for this game (and cutting Ganondorf is not an option). However, Ganondorf could also be an original character without his sword, so that´s still up in the air.

14. Midna
Midna appeared in the poll, she was one of the most important characters in Twilight Princess--which SSBB is pushing in the Zelda department--, she´s a female (which is points in Sakurai´s book) and has a number of techniques (hair, phasing/portals, dark magic, area attack) to work with. I don´t think that she´ll be riding Wolf Link, although I do think it´s still a definite possibility. Midna appeared on the poll as riding Wolf Link and that´s how you control her through the game, but I think that Sakurai will simply recognize that it´s a lot easier to make Midna go on foot--and Link is already in the game. Either way, I´m sure she´ll appear. Tingle isn´t popular in the West and Nintendo is acknowledging it, and he didn´t appear in TP. Sadly, everyone else in the Zelda universe also loses to Midna, because of her position as new character from TP. And let´s face it, Twilight Princess is the Zelda that SSBB is representing, just like how it represented Ocarina of Time in SSBM and that´s pretty much the only reason why Sheik and Young Link got in. If it wasn´t made clear, I think that Midna will show up in her cursed (imp) form, for obvious reasons. I won´t discard the possibility of her taking on her real appearance for her Final Smash.

Actually, Midna didin't appear on Sakurai's poll, though it's hardly surprising considering that her game had yet to be released.

I really think you should consider adding the Windwaker-ized Young Link, if for no other reason than that he is the star of the fastest selling Zelda in Japan: Phantom Hourglass. Melee had 5 Zelda characters including Shek, so I'd say at least that many will appear in Brawl.

15. Pikachu
Confirmed. Yeah, let´s continue. I think Pikachu will be the same as it´s always been, maybe a little faster but I doubt it.

16. Jigglypuff
The immortal, inmutable Jiggs. Although its popularity has waned since Super Smash Bros. 64--even in Japan--its presence in two last games, its original moves and the fact that nobody really despises it has secured it a spot in SSBB. I really don´t see it leaving, or changing much for that matter.

17. Mewtwo
Mewtwo is a similar case to Jigglypuff. Everybody knows it and to some degree likes it, and there is no real need for its disappearance or replacement considering how it has an original moveset. If anything, Sakurai will probably realize that it was very hard to use in SSBM and will make it a more accessible character, as he seems to want to make the game easier in general anyway. Why Mewtwo over Gardevoir? In the end, they´re similar Pokémon, and Mewtwo wins because it was in SSBM and therefore will be much easier to program into SSBB. If Sakurai makes anything of Gardevoir´s appearance in the polls, I don´t think it´ll more than a note to self to make sure Gardevoir is a Poké Ball Pokémon. If Deoxys didn´t get in, then Gardevoir is a very long shot.

18. Munchlax
Everyone knows that a Pokémon from Generation IV (The Diamond and Pearl one) will appear, because the games have made a gigantic splash worldwide. But when considering which Pokémon it will be, everyone seems to ignore Munchlax´s outstanding chances. It was featured in Destiny Deoxys, a movie released long before the rest of Generation IV was unveiled, and since then has steadily gained popularity in the East much like Jigglypuff did when Pokémon was in its Gameboy days. It appears in a myriad of memorabilia, was featured along with Pikachu in Pokémon Dash and a main character in the anime series catches one. Most people seem to dislike him because he´s not much of a breakaway from the usual Super Smash Bros. Pokémon (small, cutesy), and that´s fine. If it were up to me I´d put Carnivine in Brawl, darnit. However, you have to recognize that out of all Diamond and Pearl´s Pokémon that are suitable for a fighting game, Munchlax is the one with the most right to call it itself the representative of its generation. Lucario seems to be the most likely contender, and the race between the two is admittedly tight. Lucario was also featured in a movie, and it´s quite well-liked in the West. But the truth is that--aside from the fact that Sakurai will and is listening to Japan more than the rest of the world (Japanese-only poll, anyone?), Lucario lacks the visible popularity. He wasn´t in the poll (but then again neither was Munchlax), there´s no noticeable love for him. I´m not sure that Sakurai will pick up to just how many people want him in. I would not be surprised to see the Wave-Guiding Pokémon instead of Munchlax, but my money is still on this one.

Interesting choice... most Poke-nuts have their hearts set on Lucario.

19. Kirby
Confirmed. It wasn´t like Sakurai, the creator of Kirby, wasn´t going to include him, anyway.

20. Meta Knight
Confirmed. Can you notice how Sakurai isn´t afraid to include more of his own creations anymore?

21. King Dedede
Which brings me to him. King Dedede was the most requested character in Sakurai´s poll, demonstrating that popular approval of him is stellarly high. Furthermore, King Dedede is Sakurai´s own creation, and the third most popular character in the Kirby franchise. The people like him and the man likes him. In conclusion, anyone who questions King Dedede´s possibilities of appearing in Super Smash Bros. Brawl needs to have an incredibly good argument. Regarding moves, King Dedede would obviously be floaty, but also has several mallet techniques of his own as well as unique abilities. If the situation gets dire, he could even have Kirby´s Side B attack.

22. Samus
Confirmed. Look at her Power Suit shine!

23. Zero-Suit Samus
Confirmed. Zero-Suit Samus has by far generated the most controversy among Super Smash Bros. fanatics. Right now the situation seems to indicate that the only way to play as her will be by using Samus´ Final Smash, which is a highly unorthodox decision. However, it doesn´t change the fact that she is a completely different character and take the same time to program as any other, for which I´m including her in this list. But what if Zero-Suit Samus isn´t a full-fledged character? The fact that she can "change" to Whip mode seems to suggest that her only way of attacking besides her body will be the Galactic Federation pistol in its two different forms. Either way, that remains to be seen.

24. Ridley
Ridley is the only contender for Metroid. Either he is added or nobody other than Samus is. He was the only Metroid character to feature in Sakurai´s poll (and ranked quite high), has potential for a moveset to call his own and would bring something very new to SSBB in the form of a heavy floater; not to mention that Sakurai is very keen on aerial combat this time around. I agree that Ridley will be difficult to get into the game without making him look awkward due to body structure and the size of his wings, but am certain that Sakurai´s willing to work around these difficulties. An idea that springs to mind would be to have Ridley´s wings be smaller than normal, and only extend them to full size when he is jumping. Either way, I think that his appearance is completely plausible and extremely likely. I´m not a big fan of Ridley--personally--but am convinced that he´ll make it in.

25. Fox
Confirmed. Again we see that his moves are the same as in SSBM, even though his look is straight out of Command.

26. Falco
Did you notice how I kept pointing out that Sakurai has kept things the same where it wasn´t necessary to change them when it comes to characters? I did have a point there. Falco is an important and well-liked character, not only by the Super Smash Bros. community but also by everyone who knows of the Star Fox franchise, and seeing how he already is in SSBM it would make little sense to not welcome him into the next installation. Sakurai has stressed how he doesn´t want clones in SSBB, which is where Falco´s new weapons, look and abilities coming from Assault enter the scene. I think that Falco will be making an appearance in SSBB either as a completely original character or at least having a couple moves to call entirely his own. Why does he win against Wolf? Because he was already in SSBM, because Wolf is similar to Fox in appearance and because there hasn´t been much visible support for Wolf to appear in SSBB. Without a clear newcomer wanted, the most logical thing is to bring the guys from the last game over to this one.

27. Krystal
Krystal was one of the most highly requested newcomers for SSBB, and the only Star Fox new character who was really requested. Her relevance to Star Fox Adventures and Assault, as well as the fact that she can draw from both her staff and her futuristic weapons for techniques, as well as her status as female, combine to make her an obvious shoe-in as the newcomer from her franchise. While I think that it would be great if Krystal combined her staff powers with her Assault look and gadgets, I think that Sakurai will go solely with Assault Krystal in order to keep with futuristic feel of the Star Fox roster.

No qualms here. Very well written analysis, by the way.

28. Ike
Ike is another shoe-in; request in poll, general popularity in East and West, starred in two FE games, advertises Goddess of Dawn, perfectly fit for a fighting game. Similar appearance, the fact that he wields a sword and his position as twice-Lord also make me think that he will replace Marth in this game, who, while rightfully an important character to the franchise, has sadly fallen out of relevance. Ike could even inherit Marth´s moveset, making his inclusion that much easier.

29. Roy
Let´s face it: Roy doesn´t really deserve to be in SSBB. He starred one of the more mediocre games of the franchise--and only that one--his presence in SSBM was only for the sake of avertisement and brings nothing original or new to the fray (male, fire user, swordsman). So why is Sakurai going to bring him back? Because he can very easily be remade into an original character with moves of his own, and then he´s a perfect fit. Roy at least has presence in the West thanks to his inclusion in the last Super Smash Bros., and thus wins over all the other Fire Emblem contenders. Eliwood, Lyndis and Hector are nice, but Japan didn´t like the portable Fire Emblems. Nabarl, Ayra and Oguma are cool, but nobody outside of Japan has a clue of who they are. The Black Knight is popular, but the position of heavy evil swordsman has been (potentially) claimed by Ganondorf and Ike is already the representative of Path of Radiance and Goddess of Dawn. The only other Fire Emblem character who I think will make it in is...

30. Sigurd
Sigurd seems like an odd choice to most. He´s not known outside of Japan either, and he´s male and weilds a sword, so nothing impressive or new there. Why? Because of popularity with the people and the creator. Sigurd was also requested in Sakurai´s poll, and quite a bit, as well as protagonizes what is arguably the most popular and best-liked Fire Emblem in Japan. Unlike Ike or Roy, he´s from the older installations to the franchise, something that is left without representatives now that Marth is leaving, and he wins against every other retro character from his series thanks to sheer popularity. The second side of this reasoning is shakier. It´s commonly stated that Sakurai likes the character Sigurd, and has already considered his inclusion in the Super Smash Bros. franchise. If this is true, then his chances are basically guaranteed, but either way I think that he´ll be the new Fire Emblem character this time around, along with shoe-in Ike. The most likely contender against him, I think, would be the Black Knight, but I think Sigurd still wins (barely).

Woah, waoh, waoh. HERE is where the deabte begins.

First of all, Ike is a shoein - so good call in that regard.

Roy? Sorry, but I really can't see him returning. Not only has his one game never been released outside Japan, but even there it was poorly recieved. Sakurai didn't even want to include him. Originally, Sigurd was too be included in Melee - but Sakurai was compelled to include Roy to boost slaes of his game.

If Sakurai really wanted to include Roy's moveset instead of the far more awesome Black Knight, he would probably simply replace him with Roy's father: Eliwood from Fire Emblem GBA.

As for Sigurd... I suppose it could happen. He is very popular in Japan. But Marth is more likely, since he at least has some fans internationally.

I also would not rule out the Black Knight becuase of Ganondorf. Afterall, we don't even know for certain in Ganny will have a swordbased moveset.

31. Lucas
Sakurai has said that he would have replaced Ness with the main MOTHER3 character had the game been released--as originally planned--before Super Smash Bros. Melee. Now that MOTHER3 is (finally) out, with hugely positive reactions in Japan, there is no reason why Sakurai won´t due what he had planned originally. Lucas could potentially inherit all of Ness´ moveset or have moves of his own, but also comes with the added bonus of having the perfect Final Smash: PK LOVE. The Earthbound series has never been too big in the USA and Ness has never had huge support to remain in SSBM, so I don´t think that the Studio will lose sleep over having no international representative for a franchise that is as niche as they come.

I've been toying with the notion of replacing Ness with Lucas for some time. The only thing holding me back is the thought tha Sakurai may want to preserve the original 12 characters so as to have some series continuity in what could otherwise be a revolving door or guest characters.

32. Captain Falcon
Do I really have to state my reasoning? Samurai Goro is confirmed as Assist Trophy, SSBB has been revealed to include an F-Zero symbol, Captain Falcon has been in the last two games and is the protagonist of his franchise. What else do you need? The only thing that I don´t think will happen is the inclusion of another F-Zero character. Samurai Goro was the most likely contender, and he didn´t make it. I really believe that F-Zero will be a one-character franchise in Super Smash Bros. for third time.

Sad, but very likely true.

33. Animal Crosser
Or whatever he/she ends up being called. By Animal Crosser I refer to the human character that the player controls in the Animal Crossing games, who can be male or female and whose appearance can be changed by the player. Super Smash Bros. Brawl has already been revealed to feature Animal Crossing as a franchise through the Smashville stage, and characters Tom Nook and KK Slider--two of the biggest candidates--were deconfirmed by being in the stage background (the idea that either will be playable and then disappear from the background kinda borders on denial). Many human villagers also show up in the background of set stage, but this makes perfect sense. The Animal Crosser would be the only character whose appearance you can customize, answering to the call of a customizeable character in SSBB but still remaining within the Nintendo all-star feel. The Mii is the other candidate for this niche, but the Mii is a simplistic avatar of you who doesn´t really belong to a franchise any more than R.O.B. does. Animal Crosser has a viable moveset through several events and functions in Animal Crossing as well as all the available items and furniture. Animal Crossing is obviously going to get representation in SSBB, and in my opinion the Animal Crosser is by far the most likely candidate. Did I mention he/she appeared in Sakurai´s poll? Oh, yeah, Mr. Resetti; forgot to address him. People seem to believe that because he´s not part of the Smashville stage he must be the playable character. Mr. Resetti appears when you reset your game. Why would he be hanging out in the village? For all we know he could be hanging out in the village, as the characters seem to change with the time of day and we´ve only seen a few screenshots. The Animal Crosser is the true main character of the game, and it would make little sense to ditch him/her over one who is relatively minor.

So, Nook being in the background makes him unconfirmed, but not so with the various AC humans? I dunno, I actually think their presence in the background might be a signal that they aren't playable either.

Strictly speaking, any videogame character who stars in muliple games technically belongs to a "franchise". Wii Sports and Wii Play qualify, as do ROB's two NES games.

34. Captain Olimar
One of the few new Nintendo franchises that has been very successful and warrants representation is Pikmin. In terms of who will do the representation the answer is unanimous in Japan and the rest of the world: Captain Olimar (and his Pikmin). As pointed out by many, Captain Olimar has potential for the most original moveset in Super Smash Bros. and would come as fresh representation for a series that deserves it. I honestly see no reason why he wouldn´t included beyond time constraints.

35. Ice Climbers
It seems to be a popular claim that the Ice Climbers will not return for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Why? They are one of the most unique characters in the game, being two-in-one, and have a perfectly workable as well as original moveset going for them. The most popular argument as to why they should be ditched is the fact that many other retro characters, virtually obscure and unknown, are also waiting for their time in the sun. Why? The list of possible retro/obscure characters for this game goes on forever as demonstrated by parrothead, and the Ice Climbers are already one-of-a-kind, easy to implement thanks to their appearance in SSBM and are generally well-liked. Sakurai won´t fix it if it ain´t broke, which brings me to my next character.

36. Mr. Game & Watch
Honestly, why not? Mr. Game & Watch was highly original in SSBM as the only 2D character and once again has a fully working and original moveset to bring into SSBB, so I think that Sakurai will bring him over as well. He´s vital to Nintendo history, and I don´t why he would be willingly ditched when Sakurai wants to get as much as he can into the game.

37. Balloon Fighter
The competition for new retro character is fierce, with literally hundreds of potential contenders. So why Balloon Fighter? Let´s see. He appeared in the poll. Sakurai considered him for SSBM, and it is rumored that he even appeared in the beta version of the game. Thanks to his balloons, he has potential to be one of the most original characters in SSBB as well as go with the aerial combat theme that Sakurai is pushing for. Admittedly, there are many other characters that could take his place, but I think he´s the safest bet.

38. Sonic the Hedgehog
Seriously, he´s a shoe-in. SEGA is in great terms with Nintendo, loves the Wii, will have him and Mario face off in the Olympics, and Nintendo is interested in the idea. He was the most requested third-party character. What is anyone expecting other than his appearance?

39. Snake
Confirmed. Never thought you´d see him and Kirby in the same game, did you?

40. Stafy
The surprise! The WTF character, as one would say. But why Stafy? Because he´s one of the most solid Japan-only characters that figured in Sakurai´s poll. He has four games under his belt and is still going strong in the East. Sakurai could see him as the best candidate to bring his franchise to the West through popularity by appearing in SSBB. Stafy has more than enough friends and abilities to get into a fighting game, as well as some very unique aspects (fully underwater stage much?). Other Japan-only characters who figured in the poll, such as Demille, are currently not getting new games out and therefore lose to Stafy. Besides, Stafy is very much on the same vein as Kirby, and let´s all remember who made that pink puffball up.

So yeah, that´s my roster. Anyone who wants to argue against me, please do; that´s kinda why I made the list.

That was a very interesting read, I must say. The actual roster is very good as well, though I'm not too keen on your Fire Emblem choices. Still, just about all the essentials are there and your choices are very well reasoned.

9/10 Great job.

 

[EggBomb]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but do you think some new techniques may cause a bit of trouble with the Ice Climbers (and slightly Mr. G&W)? I'm interested in seeing what you guys think about this...maybe I'm just over thinking it.

The techniques I speak of and the problems they present to the two are:

Ladders. This was revealed in DK's new stage. Not only does the DK stage use the style of the previous Iceclimbers stage, it presents a brand new problem for the duo to tackle. If Popo & Nana are/get separated while one is on the ladder, will the AI for the other be good enough for it to get on the ladder (even if it needs to run across the platform andto up the ladder) or will the character run around above or below the other?
The ladders could contribute to a disadvantage for the climber because they could be separated easier. Even if they could skip the ladder entirely, it'd be nice to know if they could climb the ladder without throwing a target on one of the climbers back. I don't really think this would be too hard to fix or program, but you never know.

Uhm. Mr Game and Watch is 2D. Climbing a ladder would require the character to be 3D. I know he could appear flat when climbing the ladder, but assuming the pause feature comes back, if you rotate the pause screen there is no way he could climb it if he's 2D. I guess they could always pull a "Hammer 3D" Game and Watch or a Kirby GW style Mr. G&W when he's on the ladder.


The Footstool Jump. Not a problem with G&W, but for the Iceclimbers. Will both of them jump of the character at the same time? Will they double footstool jump one after another? Will a tailing climber not be able to keep up if the footstool jump is used?


Both of these techniques could cause a lot of problems for the iceclimbers by potentially leaving one vunerable. Maybe these aren't big enough problems to worry about, but coupled with DK's new IC like level it's making me wonder about their status in brawl.

 

[O D I N]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but do you think some new techniques may cause a bit of trouble with the Ice Climbers (and slightly Mr. G&W)? I'm interested in seeing what you guys think about this...maybe I'm just over thinking it.

The techniques I speak of and the problems they present to the two are:

Ladders. This was revealed in DK's new stage. Not only does the DK stage use the style of the previous Iceclimbers stage, it presents a brand new problem for the duo to tackle. If Popo & Nana are/get separated while one is on the ladder, will the AI for the other be good enough for it to get on the ladder (even if it needs to run across the platform andto up the ladder) or will the character run around above or below the other?
The ladders could contribute to a disadvantage for the climber because they could be separated easier. Even if they could skip the ladder entirely, it'd be nice to know if they could climb the ladder without throwing a target on one of the climbers back. I don't really think this would be too hard to fix or program, but you never know.

Uhm. Mr Game and Watch is 2D. Climbing a ladder would require the character to be 3D. I know he could appear flat when climbing the ladder, but assuming the pause feature comes back, if you rotate the pause screen there is no way he could climb it if he's 2D. I guess they could always pull a "Hammer 3D" Game and Watch or a Kirby GW style Mr. G&W when he's on the ladder.


The Footstool Jump. Not a problem with G&W, but for the Iceclimbers. Will both of them jump of the character at the same time? Will they double footstool jump one after another? Will a tailing climber not be able to keep up if the footstool jump is used?


Both of these techniques could cause a lot of problems for the iceclimbers by potentially leaving one vunerable. Maybe these aren't big enough problems to worry about, but coupled with DK's new IC like level it's making me wonder about their status in brawl.

They could have him climp in 3-d. Think original DK. Or hell, even now. All they need to do, do an animation with his back to us, one arm one leg, the other down, and switch back and forth.

Though that's if Mr. G&W returns.

 

[Vagrant Lustoid]

Vagrant's Roster

Vagrant Lustoid's First-Ever Brawl Roster - Tempered Somewhat By Reality and Essentially Clone-Free

Super Mario Brothers [5]:
1. Mario – The mascot and the perfectly balanced fighter. Confirmed.
2. Luigi – Brother to the mascot, another great fighter, with excellent potential for a new moveset with recent games, removing his clone status.
3. Peach – Yeah, she has Toads. Confirmed.
4. Bowser – One of the hardest hitters of the Smash world. Confirmed.
5. Bowser Jr. – Incredible potential, but no transformation to Dark Mario, since I’m already technically over the 40 character limit I set if I count Zamus.

Legend of Zelda [4]:
1. Link – Sure, why the hell not? Confirmed.
2. Zelda – Confirmed, and looking a hell of a lot better than before. With a new magic set and no Sheik, she could be half decent without being broken.
3. Ganondorf – He’s the ultimate Zelda villain, so he’s gotta be here. The TP version, I would expect, with his sword. And perhaps a Pig Ganon Final Smash.
4. Imp Midna – Definitely has enough abilities to create a fun moveset. I’d prefer her with Wolf Link, but hey, maybe that’s hoping for too much.

Pokemon [4]:
1. Pikachu – Eh, I suppose. Though he’s really more of an anime character at this point. Confirmed.
2. Jigglypuff – Don’t really want her, but she’s here to fill Pokemon slots.
3. Mewtwo – Again, not really a fan of any Pokemon in Smash. But if we have any, a bad-*** psychic would be fine. I hope he’s improved over the Melee version.
4. Trainer – Hate me if you want, but I really dislike Pokemon being in Smash in general, since they really don’t have personality and there’s far too many of them. So a Trainer could possibly work, with an interesting moveset too.

Metroid [3]:
1. Samus/Zamus – She’s confirmed in both modes. And really, who doesn’t love Samus?
2. Ridley – Ah, the eternal rival, and a proponent of aerial combat, which I believe is something Sakurai wanted to work more of into SSB. A long history, enough moves for a great moveset, there’s no real reason he shouldn’t appear.
3. Dark Samus – Eh, I’m trying to keep the list clone-free, so Phazon Prime Samus whatever-the-hell-it-is would have an entirely new moveset based on the Phazon stuff.

Kirby [3]:
1. Kirby – He’s everybody’s favourite lovable marshmallow. Let’s hope he gets buffed somewhat for Brawl. Confirmed.
2. Metaknight – The fap-character of choice for Brawl n00bs at the moment. But he’s honestly pretty sweet-looking. Confirmed.
3. King Dedede – Kirby’s biggest enemy, highest ranked on the Sakurai poll, a game being directed by Sakurai, and other Kirby characters are already showing up? All but confirmed.

Starfox [3]:
1. Fox – Sure, I suppose. As long as he gets tempered slightly, I don’t care. Confirmed.
2. Falco – Tough choice here, but in the end I figured you could probably give Falco a more original moveset than Wolf, and since I’m aiming for no-clones, Falco it is.
3. Krystal – Really not fond of Krystal, and would prefer it if she wasn’t in Brawl, but Starfox needs more representatives. And she’s a female, which Sakurai wants.

Donkey Kong [3]:
1. Donkey Kong – The big furry monkey is back and looking sleeker than ever. Confirmed.
2. Diddy Kong – Yeah, I’m an advocate. Peanut guns, barrel jetpack, cartwheels, an atomic guitar solo, what’s not to want?
3. K.Rool – Some hate him, some love him. I simply think the DK franchise needs more representation, as do villains. But I’ll admit, there are enough variations to make an awesome moveset.

Fire Emblem [2]:
1. Ike – Ike appears to be the popular choice for potential FE characters in Brawl. I say, sure, I guess.
2. Black Knight – Eh, it comes down to this guy or Marth. And I’m all for new characters. Though if we end up with sword-wielding Ganondorf, I fear Black Knight might be too similar, and that a reworked Marth might grace us instead.

Other Franchises [7]:
1. Wario – A motorcycle. Wario just became freaking awesome. Confirmed.
2. Captain Falcon – He’s a Smash classic, and F-Zero deserves a degree of representation. Besides, Smash has also made Falcon immeasurably cool.
3. Yoshi – It appears that Yoshi’s been ramped up for Brawl, and not before time. Confirmed.
4. Isaac – This Golden Sun protagonist, with his psynergy talents and espers, could make a rather interesting addition. Perhaps he and Trainer would be too similar, but then again, Isaac has magic, while Trainer has rocks and a fishing rod.
5. Lucas – Sakurai commented at some point about wanting to replace Ness with a new Earthbound/MOTHER character. And MOTHER 3 has now been released. I expect to see a new model with a slightly tweaked Ness moveset.
6. Captain Olimar – Potentially one of the most awesome Brawl movesets could be derived from this little fellow and his army of Pikmin. It has to happen. Srsly.
7. Mr Resetti – To be honest, not a great fan of Animal Crossing, haven’t had the time to play it properly. But there seems to be a general opinion that Animal Crossing requires some representation, and with Nook as a background character, well, Resetti could well do it. And a digging moveset. Now, if there’s not potential there, I don’t know where else it could be.

Retro Characters [3]:
1. Pit – The Kid bursts forth in a somewhat unexpected, but much appreciated, revival. Confirmed.
2. Mr. Game & Watch – He’s just far too awesome, and still so original. However, Balloon Fighter could just as easily take this spot.
3. Mach Rider – Earlier in this thread was a Mach moveset that let me see how awesome he could really be. But with Wario’s chopper and Falcon being the hardman racer, his chances are perhaps lower than I’d like.

Third Party Characters [3]:
1. Solid Snake – Seriously, I love Snake. So very much. But I still can’t get over him being in Brawl, of all people. Confirmed. Oh, and I <3 the box.
2. Sonic the Hedgehog – I’ll be honest, I’m not fond of Sonic, and I don’t want to see him in Brawl. But being the most popularly requested third-party, and given Sega’s good relations with Nintendo now, I fear he’ll make an appearance.
3. Simon Belmont – The Smash world needs more vampire slayers. Especially ones like Simon Belmont. However, I’ll say that I’d like to see him use a variety of weapons other than swords. Axes, maces and whips, amongst his more iconic weapons.

Total: 40

Characters I Would Love To See But Hold Little to No Hope For, Or Simply Couldn’t Fit in a 40-Character Roster:

1. Kefka – This would be one of my top choices for a coveted third-party slot. FFVI was a masterpiece for the SNES, and with Black Mage showing up in other Nintendo games recently, I can only hope. Besides, a lunatic clown with immense magical powers fits the Smash universe near perfectly.
2. Banjo & Kazooie – These guys are still icons of Nintendo, curse it all, despite the fact that Rare claims their souls and appears happy to let them fade to obscurity. Provided plenty of moves in their own games, it’s just a shame Microsoft would have to be insane to let Nintendo use these guys.
3. Viewtiful Joe – The third of my real favourites for the third-party slots, I think Viewtiful Joe is just crazy enough and comic enough to fit this game like a glove. Too bad he’s dropped in popularity since the sin that was Red Hot Rumble.
4. Geno – I have an insane clown as my top pick that couldn’t be in. How far from the top of the list could a sentient scarecrow be with that foreshadowing?
5. Skull Kid – Seriously, spooky or otherwise insane characters need to be more plentiful in Brawl. I DEMAND DARKNESS!
6. Ice Climbers – Love these guys, but with the new mechanics of ladders and the Footstool Jump, I just don’t know whether these guys could reliably work out without major work on the AI.
7. Paper Mario – He could be so very different to the regular Mario it makes my nose bleed. I desperately wanted him in the list, but there’s enough Mario support as it is. Awful shame too.

Guys Who Could Well Be In Brawl, But Would Essentially Be Clones:

1. Windwaker Link – Eh, this guy isn’t so much desperately wanted as ‘If I want a 2D Mario, I suppose I should list a cel-shaded Link too’. Fact is I don’t think he could be much more than a clone, so he’s really just here to stop people from bugging me.
2. Wolf – Because it’s pretty well a battle between him and Falco at the moment. And while I’m all for cycling out old characters for new ones in the right conditions, and Falco was essentially a clone and Wolf is about as important, the fact is that Falco could possibly be made something other than a Fox clone. I don’t imagine Wolf could.
3. Marth – I imagine Marth as being rather similar to Ike, and he’s old news anyway. But like I said, if Ganondorf fills the quota of heavy sword-wielding brutes, expect to see him instead of BK.
4. Waluigi – Okay, now this guy’s not so much a clone of Mario or Luigi, given his incredibly lanky form and the fact that he has no moveset and could theoretically be given something entirely new. But he’s filler material, and as likely to be a clone as any other character I can think of.

 

[O D I N]

Hey Vagrant, welcome.

I like that roster. I have a few qualms with it though...

THe biggest problem: I Waluigi. He's a filler character they had to make up so they could fill a character slot in Mario Party. I think he's the lamest character ever. But that's just me. Besides, what possible moveset could he be given? ... Don't answer that. Anyone. Please?

I also don't like Krystal. I never liked her as a character, and her being in Brawl is like driving a knife through my heart. Krystal in Brawl before Wolf? :shakes head: I'm becoming more and more worried for this game as time goes on.

Everyone wants Ganondorf with a sword. I can't jump on that bandwagon yet. Back when I was a scrub (yeah, in melee... >_>) I was all for Ganondorf having a sword. But now that I know my character, how he handles, what moves to use, going back to anyone but a brawler type (I'm including swords in this, cause that's not really brawling), I can't do it. While I have faith Ganondorf will be alright, I'm just concerned is all. Ganondorf is my favorite villian from video games (Yes, he outranks Sephiroth in my book. Why? Cause he actually completed what he set out to due... once... For those who don't know, watch the WindWaker prologue(?)), having him messed up or even not playable (A genuine fear of mine... @#$%ing AT's...) will really make me dislike this game. Still, I can't put all of my eggs in one basket, if Harvest Moon taught me anything. I really do think Snake is gonna end up being my new main. He seems to have a moveset similiar to Falcon/Ganondorf, and with a projectile to boot. Yes, people have suggested, why don't I just play Falcon. I do. But I like Ganondorf so much better. But I'm still a practicioner of the almighty Knee of Justice and Truth. I know I'm the only person who has this concern, cause everyone wants the sword, and believe me, I respect everyone's opinion here. We have good conversation, with genuine opinions and reasons to back up these opinions, which is why I love this thread so much. ^_^

Even though I know he's gonna be put in, I don't like Sonic either. Maybe this is cause I never had a Sega in my life growing up. Maybe it's cause of the crappy Sonic show I watched as a kid. Maybe it's because I think Sonic is overhyped nowadays. I really don't know. But I hope he's a good character for you guys. Seriously. I know he has great potential for a moveset, and would probably end up being High/Top tier, especially with Speed like his, rivaling Falcon and Fox.

I've already expressed my thoughts on MGS. Maybe I'll go back and look for the original post, along with that moveset Mendez made (at least I think it was him).

I'm avoiding this Sheik issue like the plague. Honestly, I don't really wanna see Sheik. It wouldn't fit with TP Zelda, and that issue has been brought up and fought over in countless Zelda brawl threads. I don't want this thread to turn into another one of those. If Sheik is in Brawl, good for her, but I could really care less if she is or not.

K. Rool. No opposition here. My only gripe was with a Bowser clone moveset. He can be given an original moveset no problem.

I forgot about DK64, and now with people mentioning Peanut guns and stuff, I remember now. I never played it, which is why I always though Diddy and Dixie team up would be fun.

Maybe I'll come up with a moveset for it. Just know Down+B would be to switch characters in classic DKC2 fashion.

But I think Diddy could make a good solo character.

Fire Emblem: I never finished the cube version. I should do that. I'm not opposed to Ike or the Black Knight.

Golden Sun reps are a must in my opinion. Isaac and even Garet would make great additions to Brawl. And they aren't limited to just magic. Remember, they were swordies too. I think Garet more than Isaac, but the option is there.

I gotta say, that Mach Rider moveset sounded interesting. So I'm sold there.

The lack of Banjo-Kazooie makes me cry too. T_T It's a shame it can't happen, but the door is open for possibilities. Microsoft is letting Rare put games on the DS now. Example: Diddy Kong Racing. A game I never thought would exist again. Granted, it's just a port from the 64, but it's still a window of oppurtunity.

More and more, I'm liking the idea of Ridley for Brawl. In some way shape or form. Not sold as a character yet, but not opposed.

Viewtiful Jow would be fun. I already suggested Dante as a character, only because the composer who did music for DMC is working on the game. The more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea. I think Dante would make a fun addition to Brawl, and I'd probably end up secondary-ing him. Alas... I know this can never happen. T_T

Square is kinda conflicted for me. I want Geno, but not as badly as I want Crono and Magus (or even Frog). Or Cecil, or Locke. Or Kain. But that's if Square is gonna help out. No, I don't want Sephiroth, or Cloud, or Sora. Eff Sora. >:[

I'm kinda drained from writing this, so for now I'm gonna stop ranting.

Wall of Pain of a different nature.

Also, I know this is off topic, but could I get a rate on my new sig? I'm trying a new style. :-D

 

[Vagrant Lustoid]

I have no love for Waluigi, which is why he's neither in my roster, nor the lsit of people who almost made it. Simply someone who I expect could well be in it. That last section is where I set aside all my desires and simply say 'Well, realistically, it would be much easier for them to put so-and-so in'.

Also, I have no particular desire for Ganondorf with a sword. It's just that if he uses his TP model, which I expect, then it's likely he'll use the sword he has with it.

As for Sonic? I grew up devoid of Sonic, which is perhaps why I'm so indifferent to him. I managed to avoid any Sega platforms, any Sonic cartoons or games or comics or anything, and really, I just feel that Sonic still has too many connotations of a rival console to be in a Nintendo All-Stars game. It's my main gripe about Snake as well, but Snake's just too awesome to be too upset over. I doubt I'll use Sonic much more than to test him out when i get the game.

Dante's an interesting suggestion, though he's perhaps a little too demonicly gritty to be in Brawl. And his acrobatics means he'd get some of the greatest recovery ever. Crazy Dante. I think we have one dark, somewhat more 'real' looking character already, we don't need Dante. Next SSB maybe.

As for Square? I only want people who've shown up on honest to god quality Nintendo masterpieces. Which excludes any Final Fantasy game after VI. Cloud or Sephiroth in Brawl would just be icky. I just think Kefka kinda fits the feel whilst still maintaining a darkness.

 

[O D I N]

I'm behind you 110% on Square: I think some of Square's best games were from the Nintendo consoles. Chrono Trigger being one of my favorites. Magus is a close second in comparision to villians next to Ganondorf.

You and I seem to have similiar goals/views on the subject. Welcome to the board Vagrant.

Okay... I'm gonna try something... Forgive me if this sucks... but...

A new challenger approaches!!!

Dante

Potential moveset by O D I N:

Height: 4/5
Weight: 3/5
Attack Power: 4/5
Grab Range: 2/5
Running Speed: 3/5
Jump: 5/5
Falling Speed: 3/5


"A" moves:

A: Quick downward slash with the sword, brought down from over his shoulder.
AA: A rising slash, right after the first slash.
AAA: Charges forward(much like C.Falcon) with his sword poised behind him, and thrusts forward for a strong hit, shouting "Stinger!", and proceeds to execute rapid jabs with the sword. Pressing or holding the A button will continue jabbing, until the button is released or stops being pressed. It'll take 2-3 stabs for the jabbing to stop.
F-tilt: A move very similiar to marth's U-tilt, only the hitbox is in front, and Dante turns completely around while performing this move. Much like a roundhouse, only with a sword.
U-tilt: Stabs upward. Nothing to special here.
D-tilt: A low, but quick sweeping move with his leg. Easy to combo with, and one of his faster moves.

Dash-A: Dante rushes forward, and performs a shoulder tackle motion, rolling along the ground and rising to his feet after the attack.

Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash: Dante brings his sword around his back, much like holding a baseball bat. When he swings, he hits his opponent with the flat of the sword, screaming, "FOOOOOOOOOOOoouUUURR!!!" High Knockback, considerable damage, but slow.
Up Smash: Dante begins to hold the sword in a lower stance, and after the charge, raises the sword in an arc in an upward angle (think Marth's Nair, only up. At this angle ---> /). If someone needs me to explain this, I can try. :-?
Down Smash: Dante holds his sword above his head, ready to stab the ground. After the charge is released, Dante stabs the ground, and whips himself around the sword for one complete turning, yelling "WAHOO!!". Think Neo, in Matrix two.

Aerials:

Nair: Swings his sword in front of him, using both arms to move the sword and back and forth, over his head, than rising strike, and a horizontal slash. This move is fast, and can be spammed to slow decent. It won't stop it, but slow it down a little (just like in the games). After 3 swings, he will drop at a normal rate, until the attack is used again. While swinging, Dante will have no horizontal movement. This move works much like a basic air attack.

Fair: Strong slash from overhead, resulting in a cartwheel like motion. The tip of the sword at the lowest angle just before being completely down will result in a meteor smash. The rest of the slash will result in normal knockback.

Uair: Dante performs a backflip with sword held across his body, performing a backwards slash from the direction he's facing. Very similar to Marth's Uair, only slower.

Bair: Dante spins in a circle, slashing the air behind him. This move will not turn Dante around. This move is quick, and his fastest aerial manuever.

Dair: Dante begins to fall, head first, and slashes the air infront of him twice. The first hit has no knockback, and little damage %. The second hit is a spike, with decent damage and knockback. After the second swing, Dante begins to bring his legs to his feet, and lands in a crouched position. It'll take about 1 second for the lag to wear off.

B moves:

B button: Dante draws Ebony and Ivory, and fires away. These shots will have as much knockback and stun rate as a Super Scope would. However, being that Dante is the c ocky SoB that he is, taunts after about ten shots or so. Classic lines include:
"Come on! Bring it!"
"You want this? YOU WANT THIS?!"
"Let's dance, sugar."
"Aww... Yeah!"
"...Groovy..."
"Who wants some?!"
The shots do 1-2% each hit, out of 10-15 shots (debatable, I think ten would work best). The taunts take 2-3 seconds, before he can fire again. (This move is debatable, as I know Sakurai didn't want Snake to have a gun in Brawl, but Dante without Ebony and Ivory is like Snake without his Bandana).
In the air, Dante shoots at a diagonial in front of him, but like the projectory of Ness' PK Fire from the air.

Forward B: Dante charges forward with electricity in his blade, and right before he approaches his opponent, does a quick back turn, and slashes his enemy into the air, tumbling and electicuted. If Dante misses with this move, Dante will dive into a roll, and stand afterwards. His lag time will be when he stands, as he will be dazed for a second, struggling to his feet, leaning on his sword.

In the air, dante will glide forward a short distance, and slam his foe towards the ground. Dante will fly down with this move a short distance, and then into his fall animation, where he will tumble to his , or land on a platform.

Down B: Dante swings his sword about him in a wild arc in front of himself. This move will have minimal knockback, and can be used to deflect projectiles. The move works the same in the air. Decent rate is halved, but rate between button presses is slower than Nair. Also, Nair cannot be used as a deflection move.

Up B: Dante sprouts his wings, and glides up for two wing flaps, giving him a fair distance at an upward or horizontal angle. After 2 flaps, the wings disappear, and Dante tumbles forward before activating his falling animation. No damage caused in this attack, unless the opponent is hit from the first frame of the wings being drawn. Minimal knockback and damage.

Jump: Dante jumps off the ground with considerable range. A jump forward will be no different from a jump straight off the ground, while a jump backward results in a backflip.
Double jump: Dante does a flip in the air, much like a barrel roll, and gains some more distance. The flip varies on direction.

Grabs:
Dante reaches out with his left arm, and grabs his opponent.

Jabs:
Dante smacks his opponent with the hilt of his sword, causing 2-3% each hit.
Fthrow:
Dante brings his opponent behind him, doing a quick crow-hop while saying, "The wind up..." Dante then chucks his opponent forward, shouting, "The pitch!" his opponent landing a decent distance away. The highest knockback out of the throws. If an opponent is KO'd from this manuever (within 2 seconds, i.e., they fly to the horizontal limit), Dante shouts, "It's good!!" Opponent has the chance to wiggle out much like Kirby's B-throw (It's only fair). If there is no kill, nothing is said.
Uthrow: Dante hurls his opponent up into the air with a toss from his left arm. He then fires a few rounds at his opponent, juggling them in the air. 5 shots. Not very high knockback, but not very low. High enough so that at 0-5% the opponent is high enough to be juggled.
Bthrow: The enemy is propped up behind Dante, who pops into the air level at chest level, then dropkicks the dazed foe while firing both his pistols into said enemy's face.
Dthrow: The enemy's dropped to the ground, then is "surfed upon" for a few feet, before being kicked away in the opposite direction (surf forward, kicked backward, so you can't cheap people off edges). Dante's typical "WHOO!!" is shouted during this animation. Variations include:
"WHOO!"
"WHOOHOOHOOHOO!!"
"AWW YEAH!!"
"SURF'S UP!!"
"LOOK MA! NO HANDS!"

Final Smash: Devil Trigger.

Dante activates his Devil Trigger, glowing red with swirls of red lightning around him. Dante is faster, stronger, his jumps have improved, and he gets a third flap on his up+B. His jab attack is faster as well, but is only 1% stronger compared to the normal jab attack. He also moves considerably farther on his towards b. He is invincible during this time as in he won't take any extra damage, but can still suffer knockback if he is hit with any other attacks (keeping it as close to DMC as possible). Percentage is taken into account on his knockback from hits (example, if he was at 80%, he'd still fly back as if he was at 80%, regardless of Devil Trigger). The length of this FS is left to debate, but would be based off of the time used in Bowser's transformation into Giga Bowser, or other transformation FS that haven't yet been revealed.

Taunt: Dante puts his sword on his shoulder, and makes the "bring it" motion with his other hand, while saying, "Let's do this!"

Winning pose one: Dante is firing his guns of screen in a gun-fu like manner; over the back, spin, etc., while screaming "WoooooooHOOooooo!!" After he finishes firing, he lowers the guns, smoke pouring out of the barrels. He also has a grin on his face. "That was fun!!"

Winning pose two: Dante can't be seen. Offscreen, from stage left, Dante jumps in, swinging his sword in front of him, holding the sword behind him in a final pose as he is crouched on the ground.

Winning pose three: Dante slides in while riding the back of a random wireframe (male or female. Also, it can be a Mii, if Mii's replace wireframes). He's spinning in circles firing his gun randomly, while the wireframe/Mii is struggling to get out of the surfing position. Dante is of course shouting his "WooHooHooHoo!!" while riding. After a couple spins, Dante looks at the screen, holding the guns up, barrels smoking.



And that's my first moveset. I think I'll make changes to it every once and a while... Sorry for the sucktitude. ^_^;;

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Next "update" on the first post should include Samus' profile since we now know how she transforms in ZSS

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

and characters Tom Nook and KK Slider--two of the biggest candidates--were deconfirmed by being in the stage background (the idea that either will be playable and then disappear from the background kinda borders on denial).

I'm sorry to do this but...

NOOK WAS NOT DECONFIRMED! Nowhere in the update of Smashville did it say that "Tom Nook will not be playable". Unless the website offers indesputable PROOF that Nook will not be playable (he appears as an AT, we see the final roster, we get a note telling us he won't, etc.), it CANNOT be assumed that he will not appear as a playable character.

I can argue that it's not denial (for me at least.) Up until the Smashville update, I couldn't have cared less about the Animal Crossing representation. Now, I just want Nook in just to spite all of those who jump to the conclusion that he won't be in because he's in the background.

Also, aside from Lucas and Roy (I support their alternate forms ;-) ), it's one of the best lists I've seen.


@ODIN:

No Final Smash?

 

[metallic shadow]

i think mewtwo chances is way higher then probable.

id say pretty likely.

 

[Copperpot]

Nice moveset there, Odin. I'd like to put it on record that Magus is not the 'villain' of Chrono Trigger. The only reason he was evil at all was to gain enough power to summon Lavos to the surface and destroy him, avenging the supposed death of his sister. If not for that, he would be no more evil than anyone else.

Don't get me wrong. He is pretty condescending and 'desensitized' at times.

 

[O D I N]

You're right Copperpot, I completly forgot. T_T I'm a horrible Chrono Trigger fan!! :sobs:

That's very true though. But for a long portion of the game, Magus was the appearant villian, rather than Lavos.

Aurora, eh? I don't think you're to far from where I am. Should smash someday. Sorry for being off topic, but yeah.

Thanks for your comments on the moveset. I know it's a fat chance in hell that Dante would make it, but I think his style and potential would be fun. A DMC on the Wii would be marvelous. :-D I might try a couple more potential movesets later, like Diddy and Dixie, as much as people are opposed to that, but I figure I can try, right? May as well try an Isaac and Magus and Crono set too (unless those have been done).

Man, I love this thread. :-D

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

@ODIN:

No Final Smash?