Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Wiseguy]

@ wiseguy
i agree, i am just hoping G@W stays, as he is my second. ice climbers can go, i never use them, but, mainly, i think we've come to a point of agreement.

It would seem so, though I hope you continue to post here as I enjoy a good debate. I update my runnersup list every weekday (ususally) so keep checking back.

Samurai Goroh can't be a Falcon clone. He has a katana and he can use it.

So Miciaiah is a lord? If she's in, I'm good. We need a FE character without a sword and she would be perfect (seeing that she's a mage). Sigurd would be good too since he uses a spear (but he also uses swords).

Bonk is a strange one and Louie is doubtful.

Snake and Lip? Strange combination... but welcome nevertheless.

The way I see it, if Ganondorf can be a Falcon clone so can Goroh. Sure, he must have a sword (though I've never seen him use it. Admittedly, I haven't completed the story mode in F-Zero GX yet...) but Faclon has a gun - and he doesn't use that in his moveset either. So, while I'd like to see Goroh with an original moveset, I just think the clone route is more likely.

Miciaiah is indeed one of the main lords in the upcoming Wii exclusive Fire Emblem Goddess of Dawn. As a Mage, she would indeed be a welcome change from all the FE sword-weilders. I'm not too fond of the idea of Sigurd in Brawl due to the fact that he is Japanese-only as is a bit too similar in appearance to Ike for my liking, but it's certainly a possibility.

Bonk is indeed strange, but equally awesome. I agree that Louie is doubtful, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Phaazoid]

@Wiseguy
ok, just pm me when you next update, i'll be sure to check

 

[Wiseguy]

OH MY GOSH!!! FOX IS CONFIRMED FOR BRAWL!!!!! www.smashbros.com

Oh well. Our last update was so great I guess I shouldn't be greedy....

I've updated the runnersup list with a new character, so be sure to check that out.

 

[Phaazoid]

who is it? i don't remember all of them.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

ROB, huh? Very interesting choice.

Though why is the screenshot in French?

 

[Wiseguy]

ROB, huh? Very interesting choice.

Though why is the screenshot in French?

Here in Canada, French is our second offical language. I am therefore required by federal law to include at least one French phrase on all internet publications. Otherwise, I will be cerimoniously strapped to an iceberg and left to perish.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

You see, this is what I get when I don't bother to look at people's locations. >.<

 

[Wiseguy]

I had some free time, so I posted another character idea. Be warned though, it's pretty awesome so you should probably sit down first.

@sr93: The runnersup list is numbered, so the most recent one is the last one to be added usually. Today, I added #s 13 and 14.

 

[Phaazoid]

ROB would be pretty cool, though mario cart DS was the first time i ever played as him, why not. your crazy character is the toad guy? mine is bass from the megaman series. awesome character, no chances. ohh well.

 

[Pip]

Hey all,
I'm new to this thread (I could only bring myself to read the last 8 pages of posts because they're all so LONG) and these boards in general, so if what I'm about to say has already been talked to death, particularly in this thread, then feel free to just ignore me.

I could easily think of seven or a dozen characters who deserve a spot more than G&W. Would you rather see G&W return at the expense of your favorite potential newcomer being cut?

The problem I'm seeing with your logic here, Wiseguy, is the assumption that bringing back G&W or other unique but obscure/outdated characters (e.g. Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, etc.) would necessitate as much effort on the part of the developers as introducing a completely new character. Consider, however, that they already have a defined move-set (and other character dynamics such as hit-boxes, weight, speed, etc.) and a wealth of information with which to help balance that move-set.

I would argue that including any character from Melee in Brawl (provided the developers don't want to make sweeping changes to how that character works) would only require as much effort as making a non-luigified clone of another, already complete Brawl character. That is, the majority of work to be done by the developers is in the visual design (concept, modeling, animation), with only minor tweaking needed in terms of character dynamics. Now, to be fair, the visual design process is still a substantial amount of work (something that relates to another issue I'll be addressing in a bit), but G&W in particular would require less developer time in that department than other characters. So you certainly can't consider keeping G&W (or any other character in Melee) as requiring comparable developer time to adding a new character, so really you might consider altering the rules of your 40 character challenge to reflect that (such that returning characters "cost" less than completely new characters like Pit or Zamus).

The other thing I wanted to point out is that I think your assumption that clones only take a third of the time to develop that an original character would seems a bit optimistic to me. Like I said, the visual design process takes a substantial amount of work, between coming up with a conceptual design the developers like, to modeling the character, to creating all the various animations and other visual effects the character needs. That, combined with the tweaking work necessary to differentiate and balance the clone (altered stats, resized hit-boxes, etc.), particularly a luigified clone, makes it seem to me that a 2:1 ratio is more plausible. But then, I've only worked on 3D computer graphics (my major) projects in college and not in an industry context (I just recently graduated), so my opinion on this is largely subjective.

Anyway, that's just how it seems to me.

 

[Phaazoid]

good point pip, nice first post and welcome to smashboards. you've certainly given wiseguy what he wants, something to argue about. while i agree on your point on G@W, it is th overall character count that counts. if G@W is brought back (which would be easy), then there might not be enough room for, say, <your favorite character here> number wise, as Sakurai said no more than 50 characters.

i agree on your thinking on clones though, i wasn't on this thread when it was mentioned (i think), but half as long seems rational.

 

[Pip]

Thanks for the support samusrules. As far as Sakurai's statement of no more than 50 characters, I suspect that's based on him already having a good idea of the ratios of returning characters/new original characters/new clones that he'll have in the game, and an idea of how much development time that it will take. I don't think he's saying no more than 50 characters simply because he doesn't want to clutter the game too much (although that may be part of it as well), but mostly because of expected development time constraints.

That said, you can obviously rule out any configuration that does have more than 50 characters, but the ratios of returning characters/new original characters/new clones for any amount of characters under 50 (and thus the formula that one might use to govern the predictions you make) is still up for debate.

 

[Wiseguy]

ROB would be pretty cool, though mario cart DS was the first time i ever played as him, why not. your crazy character is the toad guy? mine is bass from the megaman series. awesome character, no chances. ohh well.

At least your character appeared on a Nintendo platform. Sadly, Trode is PS2 only.

Message to Square and Nintendo: I demand that you give Trode a guest appearance in DQ XI on DS so I can can play as Trode in SSB4!

Hey all,
I'm new to this thread (I could only bring myself to read the last 8 pages of posts because they're all so LONG) and these boards in general, so if what I'm about to say has already been talked to death, particularly in this thread, then feel free to just ignore me.

Welcome to Smashboards Pip.

If you waded through 8 pages of this thread before posting, then you deserve to have your argument taken seriously - and also a medal.

The problem I'm seeing with your logic here, Wiseguy, is the assumption that bringing back G&W or other unique but obscure/outdated characters (e.g. Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, etc.) would necessitate as much effort on the part of the developers as introducing a completely new character. Consider, however, that they already have a defined move-set (and other character dynamics such as hit-boxes, weight, speed, etc.) and a wealth of information with which to help balance that move-set.

I would argue that including any character from Melee in Brawl (provided the developers don't want to make sweeping changes to how that character works) would only require as much effort as making a non-luigified clone of another, already complete Brawl character. That is, the majority of work to be done by the developers is in the visual design (concept, modeling, animation), with only minor tweaking needed in terms of character dynamics. Now, to be fair, the visual design process is still a substantial amount of work (something that relates to another issue I'll be addressing in a bit), but G&W in particular would require less developer time in that department than other characters. So you certainly can't consider keeping G&W (or any other character in Melee) as requiring comparable developer time to adding a new character, so really you might consider altering the rules of your 40 character challenge to reflect that (such that returning characters "cost" less than completely new characters like Pit or Zamus).

You bring up an interesting point. As someone who knows nothing about game design or programing, I honestly can't say how long it takes to program a character returning from Melee compared to an entirely new character.

I've heard rumors that Brawl is essentially based on Melee's engine, but I can't say if that's true or not. If the overall engine is dramatically different however, I would assume that returning characters like G&W would require more than simply cuting -and-paisting them from one game to another, but would instead require essentially starting from scratch.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the creation of the character model and moveset don't take nearly as long to program as balancing the moveset to ensure that all the characters are roughly equal. Again, I'm only guessing.

But I do think you have a point. Obviously a complex newcomer like Olimar would be far more time consuming than, say, Kirby who is almost unchanged from Melee. But, depending on how time consuming someone like G&W would be, I would consider that time better spent on a worthy newcomer.

In the end, my 40 character challenge is just based on rough estmates and an abitrary number - and shouldn't be treated as scientific by any stretch of the imagination (sorry if I made it sound as such...) but is intended just for fun speculation.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that I think your assumption that clones only take a third of the time to develop that an original character would seems a bit optimistic to me. Like I said, the visual design process takes a substantial amount of work, between coming up with a conceptual design the developers like, to modeling the character, to creating all the various animations and other visual effects the character needs. That, combined with the tweaking work necessary to differentiate and balance the clone (altered stats, resized hit-boxes, etc.), particularly a luigified clone, makes it seem to me that a 2:1 ratio is more plausible. But then, I've only worked on 3D computer graphics (my major) projects in college and not in an industry context (I just recently graduated), so my opinion on this is largely subjective.

Anyway, that's just how it seems to me.

I guess if you want to get all LOGICAL on me that makes sense.

Just kidding. You make a good point. A Luigified clone would obviously take longer. Again, my 3:1 ratio was arbitrary, and based on my own unimformed guess. Based on your arguments, I may have to reconsider my predictions...

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Sakurai never said that there wouldn't be more than 50 characters. Granted I think it's unlikely we will, but nothing is confirmed about roster limits just yet.

 

[Phaazoid]

no, sakurai did say no more than 50 characters.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

No he hasn't. If you are talking about that Nintendrone article, then don't believe it. Not only has it practically been proven he's a liar, you really shouldn't accept anything until Sakurai says it himself. At the moment, if it's not in Samurai Panda's translation thread (which is directly translated from Sakurai himself) or on Sakurai's blog, then chances are it's a rumour.

 

[Stryks]

Wheres the link where he said that? Ive never seen that info before, anyway I think we'll get around 40-50 characters, but thats just me...

 

[Phaazoid]

i wasn't quoting nintendrone, i was quoting something off of samurai pandas thread. don't remember where though

 

[LukeFonFabre]

You sure? I don't remember it being in SP's thread, and I thought that Nintendrone was the first one to mention it.

 

[Phaazoid]

no, i thought i remember reading it in samurai panda's thread, because i didn't read much of the nintendrone interview (all i heard from it was original 12 returning)

 

[Pip]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the creation of the character model and moveset don't take nearly as long to program as balancing the moveset to ensure that all the characters are roughly equal. Again, I'm only guessing.

Balancing the move-set to ensure that all the characters are roughly equal is also the kind of thing that would be much easier for a returning character, however. The returning characters all have had 5 and a half years of play-testing since the game came out, essentially. People have a much better idea of how their move-sets relate, power-wise, to other characters, and so I believe that they would be much easier to tweak to appropriate levels.

In the end, my 40 character challenge is just based on rough estmates and an abitrary number - and shouldn't be treated as scientific by any stretch of the imagination (sorry if I made it sound as such...) but is intended just for fun speculation.

I apologize. My argument wasn't originally intended to be a direct attack on your character list system, it just kind of got away from me. My numbers are of course equally arbitrary. My real point is that a character like G&W might be worth keeping if the difference in development time means having G&W, Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers (if those are characters that one likes) rather than a single new character.

And of course, my argument is partly moot if the engine (the code guts of the game, that is) is vastly different, and completely moot if the game play mechanics of Brawl have far more dramatic changes than they currently seem to.


Edit: Ok, well maybe the second portion of my argument was intended as an attack on your character challenge system, but I swear I have no ill will for you yourself.

 

[Phaazoid]

and the system doesn't seem vastly different so far, with the exepction of crawling, and moving and shooting.

 

[Dezrax2]

I really, really want Isaac to be in this game. A Djiini based character would be awesome.

 

[Mini Mic]

^ Here here! I wanna see ragnarok! But i still think dijins should be items even if Isaac uses Psyenergy

 

[Wiseguy]

Balancing the move-set to ensure that all the characters are roughly equal is also the kind of thing that would be much easier for a returning character, however. The returning characters all have had 5 and a half years of play-testing since the game came out, essentially. People have a much better idea of how their move-sets relate, power-wise, to other characters, and so I believe that they would be much easier to tweak to appropriate levels.

You do make a good point, though I would imagine that some returning characters would be more easy to balance than others. In the case of a completly broken character (like Sheik) it might be easier just to cut the character altogether than try and make them fair and balanced - and the same could also be true for low tier characters such as G&W.

It seems to me that after all these years of "play testing" with the Melee roster, the Smash team must have a better idea of how to construct a balanced character from scratch. If that's the case, than there would be less incentive to bring back characters like G&W.

But again, I'm just speculating.

I apologize. My argument wasn't originally intended to be a direct attack on your character list system, it just kind of got away from me. My numbers are of course equally arbitrary. My real point is that a character like G&W might be worth keeping if the difference in development time means having G&W, Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers (if those are characters that one likes) rather than a single new character.

Now offense taken. If there's one thing I respect it's a well thought out argument.

If it is the case that returning characters are significanty easier to program into Brawl than newcomers, then I definitely see those three you mentioned returning. I harbour no ill intent to the Melee cast and would love to see them all return - but above all I hope to see as many newcomers as possible.

And of course, my argument is partly moot if the engine (the code guts of the game, that is) is vastly different, and completely moot if the game play mechanics of Brawl have far more dramatic changes than they currently seem to.

As Samusrules93 pointed out, the mechanics don't seem too different at first blush. However, once we get our hands on it we may discover that the entire engine has been overhauled. Crawling and supermoves are new, obviously, but there seems to be a greater emphasis on midair attack also, if I'm not mistaken.

In the end, we simply don't know either way so we may not know which of us is correct for a while.

Edit: Ok, well maybe the second portion of my argument was intended as an attack on your character challenge system, but I swear I have no ill will for you yourself.

Hey, we're all friends here. I don't take anyone's disagreements personally. It would be pretty boring if we all agreed all the time.

I really, really want Isaac to be in this game. A Djiini based character would be awesome.

^ Here here! I wanna see ragnarok! But i still think dijins should be items even if Isaac uses Psyenergy

I understood the part about wanting Issac in the game (which is actually pretty likely) but after that it sounds like you two are speking another language.

I really should play Golden Sun. It sounds like I'm missing out. Maybe we'll hear of a new game in the series on Wii at E3...

 

[Pip]

You do make a good point, though I would imagine that some returning characters would be more easy to balance than others. In the case of a completly broken character (like Sheik) it might be easier just to cut the character altogether than try and make them fair and balanced - and the same could also be true for low tier characters such as G&W.

It seems to me that after all these years of "play testing" with the Melee roster, the Smash team must have a better idea of how to construct a balanced character from scratch. If that's the case, than there would be less incentive to bring back characters like G&W.

But again, I'm just speculating..

I still can't really see balancing a new character from scratch being anywhere near as easy as balancing any of the Melee characters. Yes, they may be better at making a balanced original character now than they were 6 years ago, but all of insight comes directly from the "case studies" that are the Melee characters. Any additional proficiency in balancing new characters would come from drawing comparisons and relations to existing Melee characters. Thus, the more original (i.e. distinctive) a new character is in terms of gameplay, the less this past experience will help them.

On the other hand, keeping Melee characters on in Brawl could be compared to making an almost exact clone of the Melee character, and then trying to balance that, a much easier feat given that your benchmarks for what is balanced or not are all coming from the Melee characters. Even a character that is outrageously broken (like you believe Sheik to be) would be much easier to translate than making a new character because you've already identified the problems with moves like his/hers.

 

[Phaazoid]

@pip, and wiseguy
i think that pip is mainly correct here, that it is easier to balance melee characters rather than make completely new ones. whether it is increasing their falling speed, or lowering the amount of damage an attack or 2 does, it is much simpler than creating a whole new one from scratch. if they took out shieks dash attack, and changed his up smash, then he would be easy to beat (my friend maines him and rarely uses other moves than those 2, and he is pretty good).

 

[Wiseguy]

Once again, I've updated my runner up list. I encourage everyone to give a look see, and feel free to share your thoughts on who should be next.

I still can't really see balancing a new character from scratch being anywhere near as easy as balancing any of the Melee characters. Yes, they may be better at making a balanced original character now than they were 6 years ago, but all of insight comes directly from the "case studies" that are the Melee characters. Any additional proficiency in balancing new characters would come from drawing comparisons and relations to existing Melee characters. Thus, the more original (i.e. distinctive) a new character is in terms of gameplay, the less this past experience will help them.

Yes, obviously characters like Midna/Wolf or Olimar would be extrmely time consuming to program since they are so unique. But a character like Zero Suit Samus, for example, would be just as easy to balance as Sheik. Likewise, Mii would be just as simple as G&W and so on.

On the other hand, keeping Melee characters on in Brawl could be compared to making an almost exact clone of the Melee character, and then trying to balance that, a much easier feat given that your benchmarks for what is balanced or not are all coming from the Melee characters. Even a character that is outrageously broken (like you believe Sheik to be) would be much easier to translate than making a new character because you've already identified the problems with moves like his/hers.

Maybe I'm off base, but after seeing what works and what doesn't in Melee, it seems to me that creating a moveset from sratch (with the Brawl wngine in mind) would be just as easy as trying to fix a fundamentally broken character like Sheik.

@pip, and wiseguy
i think that pip is mainly correct here, that it is easier to balance melee characters rather than make completely new ones. whether it is increasing their falling speed, or lowering the amount of damage an attack or 2 does, it is much simpler than creating a whole new one from scratch. if they took out shieks dash attack, and changed his up smash, then he would be easy to beat (my friend maines him and rarely uses other moves than those 2, and he is pretty good).

You forgot about Sheik's arial attacks, which are a major factor in his/her/its/potatoe's cheapness.

However, even if bringing back an old character was only, say, 75% of the work required to create a new character I would say a new character is still the way to go. If it was only 30%, however, then I would agree that including 3 old characters at the expense of a single new character is preferable.

 

[the grim lizard]

Wiseguy-

I don't know if I've commented yet, but some quick feedback.

First, You may want to check into Balloon Fighter a little bit. He a lot more of a chance than a lot of those guys for some simple reason: they already made the character for Melee. I'm sure you've heard it (maybe) but they pulled him because with the time crunch, they would rather develop the unique ICs than BF. He is a very very likely character and should likely be in your top lineup. (I won't go into further argument here.)

Second (and I'm sure you've gotten flack about this already), You have Dark Samus, K. Rool, Tom Nook and Miis in and no Falco. There is seriously something wrong with that. I dunno, maybe you're right, and he'll get cut. But all I know is, Sakurai will have some very angry fans on his hands...to cut the most popular character in the series?? He's be better off taking out Fox. Anyone who doesn't believe me probably hasn't played SF64. Either way, check out the vid in my sig.

Along those lines, you'd probably want to re-think Mewtwo as well. I'm not sure what the chance are of all three (Mewtwo, Lucario and Deoxys) getting in, but Mewtwo is too much of a crowd pleaser. Despite sucking majorly (not my opinion by the masses') in Melee, he is still one of the most popular Pokemon out there (and that's not limited to just the Poke fanboys). Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that Sakurai likes him. I don't know how Sakurai personally feels about Falco, but I'm pretty sure he won't want to cut M2.

Third, I don't know if you did it because you didn't know who to pick, but...you have six 3rd party characters. Sakurai said 3 max. Nuff said there.

Finally, I like your list overall, but you included a lot of very iffy characters that probably shouldn't get in over some others. It seems you haven't considered Stafy at all. Stafy is without a doubt one of the most unique characters I've seen. He's right up there with Olimar, and I know how much you love him. You should check out this guy, too...

Otherwise, pretty good list. We're just about on the same page.

Also, how about Tamagon as a runner for some support for him? (Check out the thread link below.)

 

[Pip]

I hope you don't mind that I've put your quotes out of sequence. I wanted to address them in my own order.

Maybe I'm off base, but after seeing what works and what doesn't in Melee, it seems to me that creating a moveset from sratch (with the Brawl wngine in mind) would be just as easy as trying to fix a fundamentally broken character like Sheik..

I don't really understand where you're getting this idea that any current character can be so wildly out of wack that its harder to bring them in line in terms of balance with other characters than to make up a completely new one. If you can recognize that a character is unbalanced then you should easily be able to determine the reasons why and address those issues specifically. With a new character you have an entire new set of moves and other character dynamics to look at, any part of which may or may not be over/under-powered. The challenge of a new character is determining if anything is broken in the first place. Once you've done that, fixing the problem is a relatively small task.

Yes, obviously characters like Midna/Wolf or Olimar would be extrmely time consuming to program since they are so unique. But a character like Zero Suit Samus, for example, would be just as easy to balance as Sheik.

Ah, but I'm guessing that the reason you're getting the impression that Zero Suit Samus would be so easy to balance is because it seems like she may be a very similar character in terms of moves to Sheik itself. This of course may turn out not to be the case, and even if it is I would still argue that balancing an almost exact copy is easier than balancing a character that is merely similar (for the aforementioned reason of already knowing where the problems lie).

That said, I agree that the developer workloads may be comparable enough that the new character is still a better choice than the old one (if it does indeed come down to a choice between one or the other). In terms of Sheik, I think this is probably the case if Zamus is indeed similar to Sheik in play style like she appears to be, mostly because Zamus is more likely to be a popular character. From what we've seen of Zamus I think that it's more likely than not that the developers have already made the decision to remove Sheik (because of their apparent similarities), but that's just speculation.

Likewise, Mii would be just as simple as G&W and so on.

I don't know what you're basing your assumption that a Mii character would be easy to balance, because even though a Mii character would have to have a "generic" move-set to some extent, I still think the developers would work hard to make those moves dynamic and interesting in terms of game play (perhaps extra hard specifically because they're worried the Mii character would be too bland otherwise), which would result in a more difficult balancing process.

In general, I think that the difference in developer time between most new characters (specifically the ones that appear to not be heavily based on existing characters like Zamus may be) and returning characters may be more vast than you're assuming, but the actual relative amounts are obviously hard to pin down for people with largely uninformed perspectives on the whole process such as ourselves. That is, it's really hard for any of us to say for sure. I'm just making my best guess.

 

[Chief Mendez]

seilper sdrawkcaB

I decided to remix-it-up a bit and reply from the most recent posts on back, as opposed to the usual 'last post on' method. Be prepared.

I understood the part about wanting Issac in the game (which is actually pretty likely) but after that it sounds like you two are speking another language.

Psyneegy=magic, Djinni=summons, and Ragnarok is a (pretty bit**in) spell where a giant energy sword falls on an enemy.

[Quote='Wiseguy"]I really should play Golden Sun. It sounds like I'm missing out. Maybe we'll hear of a new game in the series on Wii at E3..[/QUOTE]I don't think you're missing out on much. They're good games, but there are better GBA RPGs, and the GS games aren't exactly known for their originality or innovation. And apparently, Camelot's working on a "RPG for Wii", and most people assume that they're making GS3 (since it was supposed to be a trilogy anyway). If not E3, then TGS or something.

As Samusrules93 pointed out, the mechanics don't seem too different at first blush. However, once we get our hands on it we may discover that the entire engine has been overhauled. Crawling and supermoves are new, obviously, but there seems to be a greater emphasis on midair attack also, if I'm not mistaken.

In almost every screenshot there's a character using an air attack. But then, that's just them using composition to make every pic look exciting and full of energy. I've also heard tell that the game's going to be slowed down a little bit (think Soul Calibur 2 to Soul Calibur 3, only backwards).

Sure, he must have a sword (though I've never seen him use it. Admittedly, I haven't completed the story mode in F-Zero GX yet...)

You and me both brother; that mode is pure heck. It might help though, if my copy wasn't busted.

As far as Sakurai's statement of no more than 50 characters, I suspect that's based on him already having a good idea of the ratios of returning characters/new original characters/new clones that he'll have in the game, and an idea of how much development time that it will take.

Noone welcomed me when I started out here, so NYEHH!

More than that, I think his "no more then 50" thing was just to keep us in check until the roster's revealed. I'm fairly sure that he's known how many (give or take a couple 3rd party characters still in talks) people will be in the game.

What's really cool about what I just wrote is that it contributes nothing to the discussion, since I basically repeated what you already wrote. Oh well. I'd rather write asecond paragraph than delete my mistake.

I've heard rumors that Brawl is essentially based on Melee's engine, but I can't say if that's true or not.

On the late smashbros.com, in that section about the game being made, it states that Sakurai was not only given a 50 man studio built just for Brawl, but that he also received the complete Melee code/engine. I think Brawl being Melee-based is a fair assumption.

The Ouendan cheerleaders, SISSY!?!? *stabs Wiseguy with a rusty spork*. I have played both EBA and Ouendan 2, and let me tell you, the Agents have got nothing on the sheer awesome of Ryuta Ippongi and his squad.

I haven'tgottenaround to Ouendan 2 yet, but comparing the guys from EBA to the guys from Ouendan (1) is just silly. Everyone knows Ouendan's better than EBA.

If only Wiseguy would import one of them.....his life would be complete.

Vagrant is like Chrono Trigger: no gamer should be forced to live without having at least tried it.

I'm likin' this 'Drascin' fella' more and more!

I'm with Mendez in the Zelda argument. For all of the awesome TP had, WW still felt a fresher experience. I keep saying, WW was brutally underrated. Yeah, it was easy as pie, but so was TP (really, TP may have some of the coolest characters to date, and give plenty of roleplaying epic for us RP buffs, but my 8-year-old cousin can beat the dungeons) and the pacing in WW was just perfectly designed.

WW's about as close to the original LOZ as you can get outside of the game itself. The huge overworld, complete with no load times and a whole crapton of things to find really harkened back to the glory days of the NES. And the story was way better than any other Zelda. And then there's the characters: no other Zelda (maybe Majora) has had so much personality in it's populace.

The only flaw was the Triforce shards, but that can be overlooked if you play the game with a mindset not founded on the linearity of Ocarina. If all you'd played of Zelda prior to WW was the original, you'd have had a perfect experience.

That's a very well conceived, well written moveset Mendez. But the idea of a wrench weilding fighter hust doesn't sound that appealing to me. I've been a strong advocate for similar ideas admittedly (paint brush wielders, Staff weilders, giant key weilders, etc) but a wrench is where I draw the line. What's next? Someone who fights with a flower pot? Someone who fights with a lawn ornament? Sorry, but a wrech just doesn't sound that exciting to me and I doubt that it would do justice to the Advance Wars series.

Trode doesn't exactly appeal to me either.

Fact of the matter: Andy is "the" Advance Wars guy, and there's not many other choices (I'd prefer Grit myself) that are as iconic as he. Also, a wrench is in the freakin' Advance Wars logo...I'd say it does justice.

Nice Andy moveset there, Mendez. A bit generic maybe, but certainly workable. What would his final smash be? A bomber run? Though I am still convinced Andy has a snowball's chance in hell to be in Brawl (but who knows. Sakurai likes to thow us curveballs. Anyone here can honestly said they expected the next SSB would star Pit?)

Let's start from the back on this one.

1. I wasn't at all surprised to see Pit. Before Melee, almost everyone was sure he'd be in that game. I can't say why (being maybe 10 or 11 years of age), but he was strongly rumored to be playabale, but it just never happened.

2. His Final Smash would something. But I don't know what. I usually make movesets for characters I really, really want to see make it (see: the Phoenix Wright and/or Mach Rider threads), and I only made one for Andy to illustrate my point to Wiseguy: that he'd be fun to play as, and not at all impossible to program.

He may have started as Kirk's nemesis, but now a days he's the leader of a group of secret agents who solve the world's problems with superhuman dance moves! I'm sorry, but that beats some lawyer...

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2003421

Silly me, trying to tell the Encyclopedia Brown of videogames something he didn't already know.

Oh stop, you're making me blush!

The original Perfect dark was published by Nintendo, was I'm guessing Nintendo owns some of the rights to that game. Or am I just grasping at strws becuase its my favorite N64 game ever?

But MS owns the franchise (by proxy, of course) now, so any rights Ninty had were lost when they sold Rare. Oh well.

I don't understand people who label WW's sea exploration as "boring". In addition to being visually great, the ocean has plenty of octorocks to defeat, islands to explore, rubies to collect and enemy outposts to plunder.

Once you clear a watchtower, there's really no point in going back to it. In fact, there's rarely any incentive to go to it in the first place, outside of the few that have heart pieces on them. Slaying Octoroks has little value, since you get nothing of worth from it, it eats up time trying to maneuver towards your spoils, and in the end, it's faster to go right past them. Most of the islands you can't access until the end of the game, and by that point your "adventuring spirit" has been crushed by the triforce quest. And rupees are so plentiful in the game that exploring for them is just about the stupidest thing you could do int he game.

I don't agree with the guy I'm quoting, but that's, I think, what most detractors seem to think about it.

You HATE Paper Mario games? Do you also hate sun beams, weekends, Christmas Mornings, puppies and chocolate ice cream?

You forgot true love.

I just don't like em' that much. The writing's always good (oft hilarious), but I can't stand the pacing, the music, the difficulty (it's too easy) or the cross of Mario and random RPG sterotypes. And the gameplay just gets terrifically boring after a while, especially in Super Paper Mario. I realize I'm an anomaly on this board, but that's just how I feel about them. The only Mario RPGs I like are the AlphaDream-developed ones (the Mario & Luigi games), because the writing's better, the games are actually challenging, and getting to your destination isn't as boring. Again: opinion. I'd rather not get into an argument over this, so whenever you see my username on these boards, I give you permission to scoff.

If Abyss comes close to Symphonia's level of quality, I should really enjoy.

Oh it does. And then it gets better. Instead of being stuck on one line all the time in battles, you can depress R2 to break off of the line and run around freely. When you let go of R2, you lock back into a 2D plane (and your enemy). Plus it's got a cool theme song: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhoKpafXyQY&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MNUpj9lBdX4 (Again, but in Japanese!)

Also, Luke's much cooler than Lloyd. He also gave a certain SWF member his username...

And the synchronization of some songs is torture.in EBA

Now that you mention it...yeah, I vaguely thought a few of the tracks were weird in EBA.

Well, Disgaea is not a true RPG per se, given it's light in the "roleplaying" part. It's a tactic RPG, in the vein of FFTactics or even Fire Emblem. Basically, to get Disgaea, take a part of FFT, take out the epics, add a quirky and fun storyline with some of the most lovable characters ever, a sense of humor, improve every single mechanic of the game to a power of infinite (adding some peculiar mechanics of its own, too, such as the Dark Assembly or the Item World), and voila, Disgaea. I could write a freaking essay on these games, but this is not the time nor the place.

You forgot the best reason to play Disgaea: undead exploding penguin murderers.

And you better get comfortable if you intend to complete all those games in a single summer. You're not leaving your gaming chair often . I'd suggest tubefeeding to eliminate the need to lose gaming time for lunch and such.

Invest in bedpans.

Anyway, you have at least convinced me to give Ouendean a try. If it's sequel graces my shores, you can bet I'll check it out.

Ouendan's never coming stateside, so import them while you can. Seriously, you need zero Japanese skills to play them, and it only costs 5-10 extra bucks to import them. The DS is region-free, so no need to worry about that either.

And yeah, it puzzles me how Mendez and others seem to disregard TP's incredible storyline. Though I still prefer Majora's mask story by a tiny margin.

The story wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good as WWs, and frankly, with all the hype surrounding the game (Aonuma: IT'LL BE THE BEST ZELDA EVAR, 10X BETTER THAN OCARINA!!!!!!!!!), I was dissapointed. All of the plot twists were predictable, and then the story sort of "left" for four or so dungeons...

///////////////////////////

Woo! Done for now. Hopefully FFXII won't keep me away for so long next time!

 

[Numa Dude]

he must have a sword (though I've never seen him use it. Admittedly, I haven't completed the story mode in F-Zero GX yet...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofMoT69UOk

At around 5:30 Goroh uses his sword and Pwns everyone.

 

[Phaazoid]

@numa dude
cool, i never realized he had a sword, as i never completed story mode either. i stil think either the black shadow or blood falcon should be in over him though.

 

[Numa Dude]

Black Shadow might be cool but Blood Falcon? Are you huffing grass?

 

[Phaazoid]

well, i've never seen him in the game, but he sounds cool. i think a villain is cooler than a rival.

 

[Numa Dude]

Blood Falcon literally is a clone of Falcon and is already a costume change. Now would you rather have that or a Samurai who can cut an armored car in half.

 

[Phaazoid]

samurai gorah is cool, but i think the black shadow would also do.

 

[Numa Dude]

I'm not as against Black Shadow as I used to be but he is still nothing compared to Goroh

 

[Bowserlick]

I think that Mach Rider would make a better Captain Falcon rival (and at the same glorious time represent another Nintendo series. The only catch is working him to be different then C. Falcon and Snake. Maybe I'll cook up a moveset.

 

[Numa Dude]

I don't see how someones rival can be someone that's not from his franchise.