Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Phaazoid]

i agree that i would rather see gorah than black shadow, but how could mach rider be captain falcons rival, when they are totally different franchises?

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think that Mach Rider would make a better Captain Falcon rival (and at the same glorious time represent another Nintendo series. The only catch is working him to be different then C. Falcon and Snake. Maybe I'll cook up a moveset.

Uh, maybe...but shouldn't a villain come from the same series? Regardless, here's my totally awesome Mach Rider moveset!

Mach Rider

A - Lifts his bike's front wheel off the ground and spins it, dealing several low-damage hits.
AA - Repeatedly spins the front wheel.

---

Side+A - Whips the front of his bike across in front of him.
Down+A - Lifts his front wheel up, then slams it down, damaging in front of him.
Up+A - Does a handstand on his bike seat, and thrusts both feet upwards.

---

Side Smash+A - A short, forward thrusting wheelie.
Down Smash+A - Lifts up the front of his bike. Before that part hits ground, his back goes up. His front and back ends land consectively, creating strong shockwaves on both sides.
Up Smash+A - Uber-wheelie! A full backflip, bike and all.

---

Nair - Does a lateral spin with his bike.
Fair - Front wheel spin.
Bair - Kicks out with one foot behind him.
Uair - Gripping the handlebars, he whips the bike out above him, then pulls it back under himself.
Dair - Swings the front of his bike across in front of him, spiking the opponent (think Samus' Dair, only with a motorcycle).

---

Grab - Turns his bike sideways, then reaches out with one hand. A running grab would produce a sliding effect, with Yoshi-esque lag.
Grab Hit - Mach Rider cracks his enemy's skull against his bike's front wheel.

F Throw - Grips the enemy's collar, then winds up with this other arm and delivers a straight to the jaw that sends the opponent sailing forwards.
B Throw - Tosses the enemy over and behind him, then, gripping the handlebars, double kicks behind him, hitting the enemy.
U Throw - Tosses the enemy with both hands lightly upwards, then backflips his bike. The front wheel does a few points of damage, then the back wheel sends them flying upwards.
D Throw - Drops the enemy to the ground, then places the front wheel on top of them and revs the engine.

---

B: Backfire - His engine pops, sending him forward in a short burst. At the end, he turns around. If you press B again right after he switches directions, the move goes off again, leading to an endless chain of backfires.
Side+B: Ripcord - Revs his engine, then releases his bike. It crashes forwards, then u-turns back into his waiting hands. The danger here is that he doesn't move while his bike isn't in his hands.
Up+B: Up In Smoke - In a burst of smoke, he separates into five or six shards, then reforms above his original position. Enemies caught by the shards take damage. (Obviously ripped from Deathborne's set)
Down+B: Spin Out - His engine bursts into flame, and his bike does a series of close, repeated circles, ending in a small explosion of fire (Mario Tornado-esque move).

---

Brawl Attack: Gunblaze - For a short time, Mach Rider's machineguns fire an endless stream of bullets (or lasers...whatever), no matter what he's doing. The rounds have a limited range, and do less damage than Sheik's needles, but they're endless, and when used in conjunction with Spin Out or his Dair, can create some very heavy damage totals.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So there you go, an awesome moveset for an awesome character, that would bring a whole other dimension to the Smash Bros. universe. Tell me again why this is a bad idea?

EDIT - Oh, hold on. Looks like I missed some stuff.

Edge grab: he'd hold the edge with one hand, while his other hand gripped the back wheel of his bike. His recovery attack writes itself on that! (Hint: Whips the bike in an overhead arch, then jumps onto it. The bike deals the damage.)

Double jump: His first jump is created by him quickly slamming his front tire into the ground, creating a flipping jump. His second comes from a burst of energy out of his exhaust. It should be noted that he'd have Bowser-quality jump height.

Crawl: Eh, he couldn't do this one. But hey, they only gave us walljumping with like, three characters in Melee. I don't think crawling's going to be an incredibly necessary technique.

...

Also, if we got any samurai character--which we SHOULD--it should be an actual samurai, like say...Takamaru?

 

[Stryks]

Sorry cheif gotta give u a big No, no way is mach rider using his bike in midbattle, maybe for his super, but god no XD

hey sonic is marios rival rite? theyre aint in the same series thus mach rider could be the falcon rival XD

 

[Pip]

You forgot the best reason to play Disgaea: undead exploding penguin murderers.

Prinny, dude, DUUUUUUUDE!!!

@Numa Dude: I was going to say that I was a big fan of F-Zero GX and I still wasn't interested in seeing any other characters from that franchise in Brawl. After watching that youtube link, however, I must admit that Goroh has some ***-kicking potential.

Edit: Oh, and I always thought Black Shadow was extra-lame.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Also, Luke's much cooler than Lloyd. He also gave a certain SWF member his username...

You're talking about me behind my back!

On the topic of F-Zero characters, I think Goroh probably is the most likely seeing as he's one of the bigger characters in the series and has a pretty huge fanbase. Though seeing as any F-Zero character would have to have a moveset made from scratch, I suppose any character would fit.

Though I agree with Mendez, Takamaru is pretty much Nintendo's Samurai.

 

[Phaazoid]

@chief mendez
nice moveset, but i doubt that machrider would be on his bike during the round.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Why all the Mach Rider hate? Can't you people see how freaking awesome playing him like that'd be? It all works out technically too: there aren't any deal-breaking flaws that can't be worked out. Like this, he'd stand to be just about the most original Brawl newcomer, rivaled only by Olimar! Give me one good reason why there's NO way he'd play like that, and I'll back off.

DUUUUUUUUDE!

You're talking about me behind my back!

Never! I was referring to uh...uh, the other LukeFonFabre. Yeah, that's it.

 

[Phaazoid]

@chief mendez
i don't hate mach rider, in fact i hope he is in, he is even in my brawl wishlist, i just doubt he will be on his bike, as C falcon isn't in his speeder.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
...That's your reasoning? That's just base assumption there. And I can give you two good reasons why a F-ZERO racer wouldn't work in Brawl. 1. It goes thousands of kilometers/hour, and 2. a character couldn't attack through it, and 3. it's too big.

EDIT - To clarify, I wasn't asking why youg guys hate Mach Rider, but why you guys hate the idea of him fighting on a bike. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Phaazoid]

oh. i don't hate the idea of mach rider on a bike, i think it would be cool, but it just doesn't seem likley, and it would be hard to hang on to an edge. though in stamina mode, when he dies, he could fall off his bike.

 

[Kalypso]

I strongly disagree with you on the subject of mewtwo, for a few reasons.

1) Deoxys are ****ing stupid, in every way. For one, next to no one could ever legitimately get them in the games, most pokemon fans HATE the stupid nintendo event crap. For two, they are obscenely overpowered, better than every other pokemon in every conceivable way. Thirdly, they look stupid, what are they even? Bad. Bad is what they are.

2) Mewtwo is more iconic for the pokemon series than any other pokemon spare pikachu, tied with Charizard. Those three have always been the iconic pokemon, Charizard not really being eligable as a real character and instead appearing in pokeball for the SSB games. Mewtwo has tremendous potential as a character in Brawl, and really his character in SSBM is magnifacent. They just made him bad. You used the classic, flawed 'He's low tier so he's a bad character concept' logic. I shouldn't have to explain why that is obscenely bad logic, nor why mewtwo is an awesome character, just watch Taj's Combo Video 'ShadowClaw'

If for nothing else, Mewtwo deserves a shot as a more playable character in Brawl, he was jipped in SSBM. And as for 'Out with the old, in with the new,' the more pokemon games they release the worse the pokemon look. Almost all of the coolest/most original pokemon are from the first generation, and even as a fairly competitive Diamond/Pearl player my entire team is Gen1 pokemon and their evolutions, although some of the evolutions come from later generations (Magmortar, Magnezone, Crobat)

I don't have the time to write some diatribe 10 page post about mewtwo, but there's really no reason to, if you don't see character potential you're so senselessly biased it's a waste of energy in the first place. With a few tweaks in Melee to make him ~high tier he would have been an incredible character for tournaments.

 

[Phaazoid]

i agree with everything except that charizard shouldn't be in brawl, kalypso
i think the only characters that should be removed are yl, doc, pichu, and either marth or roy. just because a character is a little outdated doesn't mean it shouldn't return. just like sheik, and G@W. i think deoxys should also be included though, not replace mewtwo.

 

[Kalypso]

i agree with everything except that charizard shouldn't be in brawl, kalypso
i think the only characters that should be removed are yl, doc, pichu, and either marth or roy. just because a character is a little outdated doesn't mean it shouldn't return. just like sheik, and G@W. i think deoxys should also be included though, not replace mewtwo.

They say Charizard shouldn't be in these games, not me. I only say Deoxys shouldn't be in the game because of how obnoxiously stupid they look and how overpowered/inaccessible they are in the real games.

 

[Phaazoid]

if deoxys is in, it should stay in normal form.
i'm glad you are not a charizard hater, and i agree about the inaccesability. my friend owns a game shark so he has every pokemon. just for not being a charizard hater, i will remove deoxys from
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=105100
(please post on it, it is dead now)

 

[the grim lizard]

I'd like for Mewtwo to have another chance. (Don't worry, as I already mentioned, Sakurai likes him.) And, we don't need repeat pokemon types; and I take M2 over Deoxys who (I agree) looks way too bizarre. I'm down for first gen Pokemon. And the occasionally 2nd or 3rd. (I don't know much about them beyond 1st.)

I agree; people were too hard on him in Melee. It's just that everyone shadows in comparison to Fox/Sheik/Marth/Peach.

And, much as I like Charizard, he's just gonna be set as a Pokeball one. Plus, I like all the big three to be in there (Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise).

 

[Bowserlick]

Uh, maybe...but shouldn't a villain come from the same series? Regardless, here's my totally awesome Mach Rider moveset!

Mach Rider

A - Lifts his bike's front wheel off the ground and spins it, dealing several low-damage hits.
AA - Repeatedly spins the front wheel.

---

Side+A - Whips the front of his bike across in front of him.
Down+A - Lifts his front wheel up, then slams it down, damaging in front of him.
Up+A - Does a handstand on his bike seat, and thrusts both feet upwards.

---

Side Smash+A - A short, forward thrusting wheelie.
Down Smash+A - Lifts up the front of his bike. Before that part hits ground, his back goes up. His front and back ends land consectively, creating strong shockwaves on both sides.
Up Smash+A - Uber-wheelie! A full backflip, bike and all.

---

Nair - Does a lateral spin with his bike.
Fair - Front wheel spin.
Bair - Kicks out with one foot behind him.
Uair - Gripping the handlebars, he whips the bike out above him, then pulls it back under himself.
Dair - Swings the front of his bike across in front of him, spiking the opponent (think Samus' Dair, only with a motorcycle).

---

Grab - Turns his bike sideways, then reaches out with one hand. A running grab would produce a sliding effect, with Yoshi-esque lag.
Grab Hit - Mach Rider cracks his enemy's skull against his bike's front wheel.

F Throw - Grips the enemy's collar, then winds up with this other arm and delivers a straight to the jaw that sends the opponent sailing forwards.
B Throw - Tosses the enemy over and behind him, then, gripping the handlebars, double kicks behind him, hitting the enemy.
U Throw - Tosses the enemy with both hands lightly upwards, then backflips his bike. The front wheel does a few points of damage, then the back wheel sends them flying upwards.
D Throw - Drops the enemy to the ground, then places the front wheel on top of them and revs the engine.

---

B: Backfire - His engine pops, sending him forward in a short burst. At the end, he turns around. If you press B again right after he switches directions, the move goes off again, leading to an endless chain of backfires.
Side+B: Ripcord - Revs his engine, then releases his bike. It crashes forwards, then u-turns back into his waiting hands. The danger here is that he doesn't move while his bike isn't in his hands.
Up+B: Up In Smoke - In a burst of smoke, he separates into five or six shards, then reforms above his original position. Enemies caught by the shards take damage. (Obviously ripped from Deathborne's set)
Down+B: Spin Out - His engine bursts into flame, and his bike does a series of close, repeated circles, ending in a small explosion of fire (Mario Tornado-esque move).

---

Brawl Attack: Gunblaze - For a short time, Mach Rider's machineguns fire an endless stream of bullets (or lasers...whatever), no matter what he's doing. The rounds have a limited range, and do less damage than Sheik's needles, but they're endless, and when used in conjunction with Spin Out or his Dair, can create some very heavy damage totals.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So there you go, an awesome moveset for an awesome character, that would bring a whole other dimension to the Smash Bros. universe. Tell me again why this is a bad idea?

EDIT - Oh, hold on. Looks like I missed some stuff.

Edge grab: he'd hold the edge with one hand, while his other hand gripped the back wheel of his bike. His recovery attack writes itself on that! (Hint: Whips the bike in an overhead arch, then jumps onto it. The bike deals the damage.)

Double jump: His first jump is created by him quickly slamming his front tire into the ground, creating a flipping jump. His second comes from a burst of energy out of his exhaust. It should be noted that he'd have Bowser-quality jump height.

Crawl: Eh, he couldn't do this one. But hey, they only gave us walljumping with like, three characters in Melee. I don't think crawling's going to be an incredibly necessary technique.

...

Also, if we got any samurai character--which we SHOULD--it should be an actual samurai, like say...Takamaru?

I am very impressed with your moveset! I do not think I ever saw a Mach Rider moveset with the bike and it seems to work out well. The B moves, however, could possibly be a little different then the A moves (but I am guessing they would look flashier).

I can imagine the jumps, the wall jumps, and even the perilous hanging off the ledge. I think they can make the proportions of the bike work. Would instantly be different then Captain Falcon.

Another idea is Mach having some sort of cool future looking gear with wheels on the arm so he could almost pull a transformer type deal (extending his arms out and using the wheels while running to mock the look of a bike). But this idea might be a little farfetched.

I dig the motorcycle concept and now I think Mach Rider has to be Brawl! Excellent. Definately the top three out of all the movesets I have read in terms of creativity and pure awesomeness.

 

[BlueFalco]

well...im shocked you actually think falco could be kicked out of brawl. Falcos so cool....hes more foxlike than fox is. Im not saying that Wolf wouldnt be awesome in brawl, but i just have a feeling that falco will come back. But because there arn't going to be any clone characters, i believe that they are going to revamp him in some way or another. (such as that pimped out rocket launcher!) I mainly agree with your post. But i cant belive that falco will be kicked from brawl.

 

[Pip]

i think the only characters that should be removed are yl, doc, pichu, and either marth or roy. just because a character is a little outdated doesn't mean it shouldn't return. just like sheik, and G@W. i think deoxys should also be included though, not replace mewtwo.

Hear, hear! I don't think any character on Melee's cast is outdated enough to be removed for that reason alone. Partly because of Melee, they're now well known characters, which means that most of them have a loyal following, even if they haven't been in any more recent games. It is particularly a tragedy for characters that provide unique play-styles to be removed, such as Ice Climbers, Mew Two, G&W, and Sheik (although I suspect that the last of these may be replaced with Zamus, to whom they may give a similar play-style).

The one thing I disagree with you on is removing Young Link, but that's just because he's a personal favorite of mine. I like having a small, agile sword/projectile user like him, so I hope that they merely change him into WW Link and give him a more unique move-set rather than remove him altogether.

Edit: I just wanted to note that I would also have put Ness and Jigglypuff in the category of endangered unique play-style characters, but luckily they're protected as part of the original 12.

 

[Devastlian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofMoT69UOk

At around 5:30 Goroh uses his sword and Pwns everyone.

Jeeze...Samurai Goroh in the anime stabs jaws...Alright. I don't think ZSS is gonna in the game so Samurai Goroh's back on my list...<_< ...He could be a Takamaru clone...>_>

@numa dude
cool, i never realized he had a sword, as i never completed story mode either. i stil think either the black shadow or blood falcon should be in over him though.

Ya know, looking through the trophies in SSBM today, I noticed the Samurai Goroh trophy did have a sword.

 

[Drascin]

Well, I'm back, after failing calculus. I really can't answer to everything, so Ill go for some random posts and call it a day .

I haven'tgottenaround to Ouendan 2 yet, but comparing the guys from EBA to the guys from Ouendan (1) is just silly. Everyone knows Ouendan's better than EBA.

If only Wiseguy would import one of them.....his life would be complete.

Ah, a fellow cheerleader. I agree, Ouendan>EBA. And about Ouendan 2, get it as soon as you can, for it is totally awesome. I had to download it due to a bit of a monetary problem, but I intend to buy it proper once I have money again. Even though I have already beaten it in Hard (haven't managed Insane yet. It's just.. insane )

I'm likin' this 'Drascin' fella' more and more!

Yay! Mendez likes me!

WW's about as close to the original LOZ as you can get outside of the game itself. The huge overworld, complete with no load times and a whole crapton of things to find really harkened back to the glory days of the NES. And the story was way better than any other Zelda. And then there's the characters: no other Zelda (maybe Majora) has had so much personality in it's populace.

The only flaw was the Triforce shards, but that can be overlooked if you play the game with a mindset not founded on the linearity of Ocarina. If all you'd played of Zelda prior to WW was the original, you'd have had a perfect experience.

Meh, the Triforce shard was a bit of a monkey wrench in the linearity of the story, a way to say "you expected things to speed up now, eh? Yeah, not happening. Now go explore the world at once, dammit!" complete with sadistic laugh by the programmers. Needless to say, I loved it. Anything that gives me a good excuse to go around the world aimlessly, but with some objective, is fine by me.

Trode doesn't exactly appeal to me either.

Haven't really played the latest Dragon Quest, so me either.

Fact of the matter: Andy is "the" Advance Wars guy, and there's not many other choices (I'd prefer Grit myself) that are as iconic as he. Also, a wrench is in the freakin' Advance Wars logo...I'd say it does justice.

Still, I'm not really that keen on him. I agree that Grit is just much more likeable. Andy looks too much like "generic shonen protagonist #12376".

Let's start from the back on this one.

1. I wasn't at all surprised to see Pit. Before Melee, almost everyone was sure he'd be in that game. I can't say why (being maybe 10 or 11 years of age), but he was strongly rumored to be playabale, but it just never happened.

You're the only person I know that thought that, to be honest. No one here expected Pit to make it into Brawl, and in fact most people wouldn't really associate the name at first.

You forgot true love.

I just don't like em' that much. The writing's always good (oft hilarious), but I can't stand the pacing, the music, the difficulty (it's too easy) or the cross of Mario and random RPG sterotypes. And the gameplay just gets terrifically boring after a while, especially in Super Paper Mario. I realize I'm an anomaly on this board, but that's just how I feel about them. The only Mario RPGs I like are the AlphaDream-developed ones (the Mario & Luigi games), because the writing's better, the games are actually challenging, and getting to your destination isn't as boring. Again: opinion. I'd rather not get into an argument over this, so whenever you see my username on these boards, I give you permission to scoff.

Mmmm... I myself enjoyed Paper Mario a lot when I played it on the N64, but I agree that Mario&Luigi games are just better. It's the same formula, only evolved for the better, so of course I have to like them, ne? Also, giving more protagonism to Luigi is always a plus in my book .

Oh it does. And then it gets better. Instead of being stuck on one line all the time in battles, you can depress R2 to break off of the line and run around freely. When you let go of R2, you lock back into a 2D plane (and your enemy). Plus it's got a cool theme song: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhoKpafXyQY&mode=related&search=

Okay, now you have my interest. Gotta find this game somehow. Thanks for the recommendation.

Now that you mention it...yeah, I vaguely thought a few of the tracks were weird in EBA.

Yeah. It got on my nerves. For some tracks, I actually had to turn down the music to get a good score. If having to play a rythm game without music isn't a bad sign, I don't know what is.

You forgot the best reason to play Disgaea: undead exploding penguin murderers.

Yeah, prinnies own. But they aren't all "murderers". Being souls of sinners, they can be anything from murderers to thieves to sexual offenders. Yeah .

And it's spelled "dood", with two "o", not "dude". Learn your prinny, people.

Ouendan's never coming stateside, so import them while you can. Seriously, you need zero Japanese skills to play them, and it only costs 5-10 extra bucks to import them. The DS is region-free, so no need to worry about that either.

/agree

I strongly disagree with you on the subject of mewtwo, for a few reasons.

1) Deoxys are ****ing stupid, in every way. For one, next to no one could ever legitimately get them in the games, most pokemon fans HATE the stupid nintendo event crap. For two, they are obscenely overpowered, better than every other pokemon in every conceivable way. Thirdly, they look stupid, what are they even? Bad. Bad is what they are.

Amen on the event thing. Seriously, I live in the middle of nowhere, so I shouldn't be able to get some pokemon? WTF? And in D/P, it seems this tendency has increased even more.

2) Mewtwo is more iconic for the pokemon series than any other pokemon spare pikachu, tied with Charizard. Those three have always been the iconic pokemon, Charizard not really being eligable as a real character and instead appearing in pokeball for the SSB games. Mewtwo has tremendous potential as a character in Brawl, and really his character in SSBM is magnifacent. They just made him bad. You used the classic, flawed 'He's low tier so he's a bad character concept' logic. I shouldn't have to explain why that is obscenely bad logic, nor why mewtwo is an awesome character, just watch Taj's Combo Video 'ShadowClaw'

If for nothing else, Mewtwo deserves a shot as a more playable character in Brawl, he was jipped in SSBM. And as for 'Out with the old, in with the new,' the more pokemon games they release the worse the pokemon look. Almost all of the coolest/most original pokemon are from the first generation, and even as a fairly competitive Diamond/Pearl player my entire team is Gen1 pokemon and their evolutions, although some of the evolutions come from later generations (Magmortar, Magnezone, Crobat)

Yeah, Mewtwo is still iconic. You forgot Mew, tho . You see, despite all of the creation legends, of all the legendaries, of Celebi, of Deoxys, of everything, when a person thinks of a pokemon of mistery his mind goes to Mew, and to Mewtwo, who represents the perversion of all of those legends by mankind. The fact that these two are the only legendaries to repeat appearance in a movie is very telling. Mewtwo is one of the most iconic pokemon in the series, and really deserves his spot.

I do feel you're being a bit too harsh on new-gen pokemon, though. Yeah, the ratio of stupid-looking to cool-looking has kept increasing, but every game has some cool guys, and R/B also had some idiotic-looking pokemon. Case in point, Magnemite/Magneton. You can't really say that didn't look totally stupid. But yeah, the lows are much lower lately. (seriously, Bidoof?! Wha?!) Some of the highs are really high, though. The 2nd gen had some of the best pokemon in the saga, a lot of them much better than the originals. Examples?

-For legends, Suicune and Lugia are great. Suicune is just classy, and Lugia is cool however you look at it. Ho-oh is not bad, either.
-And in the normals, some gems from memory: Tyranitar, Typhlosion, Scizor, Misdreavus, Ampharos, Sneasel (I love this guy to bits. Apparently, from what I'm told, his moveset has been greatly improved in D/P, which makes me happy), Woobuffet, Unown.

And I'm sure there'd be more, but my memory is not what it was. Sapphire also had some good guys. Gardevoir > Alakazam . Zangoose, Blaziken and Milotic also come readily to memory as having elicited a lot of "whoah, cool" reactions.

I'm not really knowledgeable yet on D/P, having started two days ago, so I can't say anything about that. I will say, however, that the initial pokemon did look very bad with the exception of Piplup (lessee... ugly turtle with a raddish on its head, deformed, overstretched monkey who looks a bit ********, or cute little penguin. Yeah, hard decision there). I do prefer my new Staravia to my old Pidgeotto, though.

_____________________________________________________________________

Now, for the changes in Wisey's list... Bonk I can understand, Trode I see it's just you being silly (we all need that sometimes ), but... ROB is the most implausible piece of utter genius you could come up with. Not happening, of course, but it would be oh so awesome. Five stars for that one, man.

 

[Pip]

And it's spelled "dood", with two "o", not "dude". Learn your prinny, people.

Right you are! My mistake.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well, I log on to see if my beloved thread had died again - only to discover that it had expoded! In graditude, I'm going to respond to EVERYONE who posted in my absesnce. Am I insane for taking on such a feat? Maybe.

I apoogize in advance for the length of this post. If your post was directed towards me (or if you said something that I found interesting) it's definitely somwhere in this mess.

I hope you don't mind that I've put your quotes out of sequence. I wanted to address them in my own order.

Not at all.

I don't really understand where you're getting this idea that any current character can be so wildly out of wack that its harder to bring them in line in terms of balance with other characters than to make up a completely new one. If you can recognize that a character is unbalanced then you should easily be able to determine the reasons why and address those issues specifically. With a new character you have an entire new set of moves and other character dynamics to look at, any part of which may or may not be over/under-powered. The challenge of a new character is determining if anything is broken in the first place. Once you've done that, fixing the problem is a relatively small task.

Well, I think it realy depends on how drastically the character has to be altered. Fox example, it looks as though Fox has been changed quite dramatically - not only in appearance but in size and shape. It seems to me that since Fox was a chararacter that clearly needed to be nerfed dramatically Sakurai elected to redesign him from scratch (though that's admittedly only speculation since we havn't seen much of his moveset.)

Ah, but I'm guessing that the reason you're getting the impression that Zero Suit Samus would be so easy to balance is because it seems like she may be a very similar character in terms of moves to Sheik itself. This of course may turn out not to be the case, and even if it is I would still argue that balancing an almost exact copy is easier than balancing a character that is merely similar (for the aforementioned reason of already knowing where the problems lie).

Again, I'm no programer, but I suspect that if a character is character is broken on multiple levels (*Cough* Shiek *cough*) then it would be easier to design a similar character from scratch with the Brawl engine specifically in mind than to fix a character who is busted to its core. This is especially true if (as I suspect) the Smash team is aiming to make Brawl as balanced as SSB 64.

That said, I agree that the developer workloads may be comparable enough that the new character is still a better choice than the old one (if it does indeed come down to a choice between one or the other). In terms of Sheik, I think this is probably the case if Zamus is indeed similar to Sheik in play style like she appears to be, mostly because Zamus is more likely to be a popular character. From what we've seen of Zamus I think that it's more likely than not that the developers have already made the decision to remove Sheik (because of their apparent similarities), but that's just speculation.

It is jumping the gun a bit to say that Zamus is Sheik's replacement for certain, but that is the indication that most people get from what we've seem of her moveset. So yeah: highly probable but not 100% for certain.

I don't know what you're basing your assumption that a Mii character would be easy to balance, because even though a Mii character would have to have a "generic" move-set to some extent, I still think the developers would work hard to make those moves dynamic and interesting in terms of game play (perhaps extra hard specifically because they're worried the Mii character would be too bland otherwise), which would result in a more difficult balancing process.

I compared G&W with Mii becuase they are two characters with very basic appearances and wacky movesets. So it seems to me that rather than adjusting G&W's stats and lag to make him more competitive they could simply design the Mii as his replacement in about the same period of time.

In general, I think that the difference in developer time between most new characters (specifically the ones that appear to not be heavily based on existing characters like Zamus may be) and returning characters may be more vast than you're assuming, but the actual relative amounts are obviously hard to pin down for people with largely uninformed perspectives on the whole process such as ourselves. That is, it's really hard for any of us to say for sure. I'm just making my best guess.

Well said, sir. We can both make educated guesses, but knowing as little as we do they are just that - guesses. However, you have made a strong case for the ease of prodraming returning characters and I wouldn't be surprised in your prediction can true over mine.

Psyneegy=magic, Djinni=summons, and Ragnarok is a (pretty bit**in) spell where a giant energy sword falls on an enemy.

Good to know. Thanks.

In almost every screenshot there's a character using an air attack. But then, that's just them using composition to make every pic look exciting and full of energy. I've also heard tell that the game's going to be slowed down a little bit (think Soul Calibur 2 to Soul Calibur 3, only backwards).

I think Sakurai said something to that effect (that the game would be slowed) on Panda's thread. Personally, I'm all for it. SSB 64's slower pace allowed for more strategy than Melee's lightning fast gameplay.

You and me both brother; that mode is pure heck. It might help though, if my copy wasn't busted.

At least you have an excuse, my copy is in good order and collecting dust. I usually enjoy challenging games (anyone here played I-Ninja ?) but GX's story mode was so mind-bogingly hard that I was forced to give up.

On the late smashbros.com, in that section about the game being made, it states that Sakurai was not only given a 50 man studio built just for Brawl, but that he also received the complete Melee code/engine. I think Brawl being Melee-based is a fair assumption.

They, I remember reading something to that effect...

However, just because the game is based on Melee's engine doesn't mean that drastic changes weren't made. Afterall, Twilight Princess was originally based on Wind Waker's engine.

I haven'tgottenaround to Ouendan 2 yet, but comparing the guys from EBA to the guys from Ouendan (1) is just silly. Everyone knows Ouendan's better than EBA.

If only Wiseguy would import one of them.....his life would be complete.

Well, if it will make my life complete then maybe I will import for once. I'll put it on my to-do list.

I'm likin' this 'Drascin' fella' more and more!

You've gotta respect Drascin. He's one of the more intelligent voices here on Smashboards.

WW's about as close to the original LOZ as you can get outside of the game itself. The huge overworld, complete with no load times and a whole crapton of things to find really harkened back to the glory days of the NES. And the story was way better than any other Zelda. And then there's the characters: no other Zelda (maybe Majora) has had so much personality in it's populace.

The only flaw was the Triforce shards, but that can be overlooked if you play the game with a mindset not founded on the linearity of Ocarina. If all you'd played of Zelda prior to WW was the original, you'd have had a perfect experience.

Wind Waker's story is one of the better ones in the series, no doubt, but at it's core WW still follows the same old Triforce storyline that has been with the series since the beggining. Majora's Mask's storyline is far superior because it's off the wall plot never ceases to surprise.

And while WW's cast was certianly not lacking in the personality department, it simply can't top MM. The Meanacing moon? A dancing ghost? An invisible soldier? The introduction of Tingle? The Skull Kid as the main villian? ALIENS ABDUCTING COWS?!? Sorry, but Termainia's inhabitants are far more compelling.

Trode doesn't exactly appeal to me either.

Come on! Trode would rock! He could use his alchemy pot to create an item out of thin air and his horse daughter could trample his opponents as his Super Attack.and-

Geez, I just realized that I'm starting to sound like McFox when he talks about Paras...

Fact of the matter: Andy is "the" Advance Wars guy, and there's not many other choices (I'd prefer Grit myself) that are as iconic as he. Also, a wrench is in the freakin' Advance Wars logo...I'd say it does justice.

I'll give you that Andy is the most likely representative of the series, but he isn't the only one. We could also see someone from the awesome Advance Wars spinoff: Battaleon Wars.

Left to right: Brigadier Betty, General Herman and Colonel Austin.

2. His Final Smash would something. But I don't know what. I usually make movesets for characters I really, really want to see make it (see: the Phoenix Wright and/or Mach Rider threads), and I only made one for Andy to illustrate my point to Wiseguy: that he'd be fun to play as, and not at all impossible to program.

He wouldn't be impossible to program, but I still don't see him as a particularily compelling character. Most of his moves involve wacking people with a wrench - which isn't very exciting.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2003421

Dear Mr. Wright,

Wow, I've never been told off by a fictional character because of one of my posts before.

I apologize if you took offense to my statement. If it's any consolation, I would never question your coolness, and think that you would also be a fine addition to Brawl.

However, facts are facts: Kahn's dance moves are so mind-blowingly rad that they can bend space and time to solve ordinary life problems like rescuing hieresses from a desert island or helping a washed up baseball star defeat a fire golem. In comparion, you are just an overglorified pencile pusher. No offence.

For your sake, I hope you never have to call The Agents to solve one of your life crisis because Kahn (in all his heterosexual, meat eating manliness) would problebly send his agents on a coffee break instead.

Regards, Wiseguy

P.S. I should get around to putting you on my runnerup list eventually. You're somewhere between Daisy Duke and Howard the Duck.

But MS owns the franchise (by proxy, of course) now, so any rights Ninty had were lost when they sold Rare. Oh well.

Sure, MS owns the rights to the PD franchise, but Nintendo must have some claim to the Perfect Dark game published on N64.

At least, that's my hope. Otherwise, all my dreams will be crushed...

I don't agree with the guy I'm quoting, but that's, I think, what most detractors seem to think about it.

Nuts to him and all other Wind Waker haters. The sprawling, stunning ocean was a pleasure to explore, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong - plain and simple.

I'm looking forward to some more high seas adventure once Phantom Hourglass is released.

You forgot true love.

I just don't like em' that much. The writing's always good (oft hilarious), but I can't stand the pacing, the music, the difficulty (it's too easy) or the cross of Mario and random RPG sterotypes. And the gameplay just gets terrifically boring after a while, especially in Super Paper Mario. I realize I'm an anomaly on this board, but that's just how I feel about them. The only Mario RPGs I like are the AlphaDream-developed ones (the Mario & Luigi games), because the writing's better, the games are actually challenging, and getting to your destination isn't as boring. Again: opinion. I'd rather not get into an argument over this, so whenever you see my username on these boards, I give you permission to scoff.

*Scoff*

Fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Though I think most people forgive the uneven pacing and low difficulty in the Paper Mario games because of the brilliant writing and clever level design.

Oh it does. And then it gets better. Instead of being stuck on one line all the time in battles, you can depress R2 to break off of the line and run around freely. When you let go of R2, you lock back into a 2D plane (and your enemy). Plus it's got a cool theme song: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhoKpafXyQY&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MNUpj9lBdX4 (Again, but in Japanese!)

I'm sold! This will be the first PS2 game I play after I can my friend into lending me his for the summer.

Also, Luke's much cooler than Lloyd. He also gave a certain SWF member his username...

So the truth comes out! To think that all this time I assumed that Luke Fon Fabre was his actual name...

You forgot the best reason to play Disgaea: undead exploding penguin murderers.

That is a pretty great reason. I can't wait!

Ouendan's never coming stateside, so import them while you can. Seriously, you need zero Japanese skills to play them, and it only costs 5-10 extra bucks to import them. The DS is region-free, so no need to worry about that either.

Fine. I know a guy. He'll get me an import copy.

The story wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good as WWs, and frankly, with all the hype surrounding the game (Aonuma: IT'LL BE THE BEST ZELDA EVAR, 10X BETTER THAN OCARINA!!!!!!!!!), I was dissapointed. All of the plot twists were predictable, and then the story sort of "left" for four or so dungeons...

///////////////////////////

I like TP alot more than OoT, but it's a bit of an exageration to say that it's ten times better...

I loved both games, but I felt that WW ended just when it hit its stride. TP's might seem more uneven on the whole - but that has a lot to do with the fact that the game is about three times as long as WW. Also, TP introduced one of the most compelling characters in the series (Midna) and the some of the minor plot twists (like Malo opening a shop) were surprising and memorable.

Woo! Done for now. Hopefully FFXII won't keep me away for so long next time!

How is that game by the way? It's another PS2 game I'd like to try out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofMoT69UOk

At around 5:30 Goroh uses his sword and Pwns everyone.

That was pretty entertaining, but to be fair - that was from the F-Zero anime and not the game. Give the dwindeling popularity of F-Zero recently, I'll be happy if Goroh gets in period (clone or not) but I'll conceed that he has the makings of an awesome sword based moveset.

@numa dude
cool, i never realized he had a sword, as i never completed story mode either. i stil think either the black shadow or blood falcon should be in over him though.

Blood Falcon will likely return as an alternate costume of Captain Falcon's, but I sincerely hope that the Balck Shadow doesn't get in - let alone over Goroh. He might be the lamest villian ever. Let's never speak his name again.

I think that Mach Rider would make a better Captain Falcon rival (and at the same glorious time represent another Nintendo series. The only catch is working him to be different then C. Falcon and Snake. Maybe I'll cook up a moveset.

I've heard alot of people mentioning this character, so I read up on his Wikipedia article. I can definitely see the potential. Also, I'd love read your moveset on this or any other character. Anything to keep my thread alive!

Uh, maybe...but shouldn't a villain come from the same series? Regardless, here's my totally awesome Mach Rider moveset!

Mach Rider

A - Lifts his bike's front wheel off the ground and spins it, dealing several low-damage hits.
AA - Repeatedly spins the front wheel.

---

Side+A - Whips the front of his bike across in front of him.
Down+A - Lifts his front wheel up, then slams it down, damaging in front of him.
Up+A - Does a handstand on his bike seat, and thrusts both feet upwards.

---

Side Smash+A - A short, forward thrusting wheelie.
Down Smash+A - Lifts up the front of his bike. Before that part hits ground, his back goes up. His front and back ends land consectively, creating strong shockwaves on both sides.
Up Smash+A - Uber-wheelie! A full backflip, bike and all.

---

Nair - Does a lateral spin with his bike.
Fair - Front wheel spin.
Bair - Kicks out with one foot behind him.
Uair - Gripping the handlebars, he whips the bike out above him, then pulls it back under himself.
Dair - Swings the front of his bike across in front of him, spiking the opponent (think Samus' Dair, only with a motorcycle).

---

Grab - Turns his bike sideways, then reaches out with one hand. A running grab would produce a sliding effect, with Yoshi-esque lag.
Grab Hit - Mach Rider cracks his enemy's skull against his bike's front wheel.

F Throw - Grips the enemy's collar, then winds up with this other arm and delivers a straight to the jaw that sends the opponent sailing forwards.
B Throw - Tosses the enemy over and behind him, then, gripping the handlebars, double kicks behind him, hitting the enemy.
U Throw - Tosses the enemy with both hands lightly upwards, then backflips his bike. The front wheel does a few points of damage, then the back wheel sends them flying upwards.
D Throw - Drops the enemy to the ground, then places the front wheel on top of them and revs the engine.

---

B: Backfire - His engine pops, sending him forward in a short burst. At the end, he turns around. If you press B again right after he switches directions, the move goes off again, leading to an endless chain of backfires.
Side+B: Ripcord - Revs his engine, then releases his bike. It crashes forwards, then u-turns back into his waiting hands. The danger here is that he doesn't move while his bike isn't in his hands.
Up+B: Up In Smoke - In a burst of smoke, he separates into five or six shards, then reforms above his original position. Enemies caught by the shards take damage. (Obviously ripped from Deathborne's set)
Down+B: Spin Out - His engine bursts into flame, and his bike does a series of close, repeated circles, ending in a small explosion of fire (Mario Tornado-esque move).

---

Brawl Attack: Gunblaze - For a short time, Mach Rider's machineguns fire an endless stream of bullets (or lasers...whatever), no matter what he's doing. The rounds have a limited range, and do less damage than Sheik's needles, but they're endless, and when used in conjunction with Spin Out or his Dair, can create some very heavy damage totals.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So there you go, an awesome moveset for an awesome character, that would bring a whole other dimension to the Smash Bros. universe. Tell me again why this is a bad idea?

EDIT - Oh, hold on. Looks like I missed some stuff.

Edge grab: he'd hold the edge with one hand, while his other hand gripped the back wheel of his bike. His recovery attack writes itself on that! (Hint: Whips the bike in an overhead arch, then jumps onto it. The bike deals the damage.)

Double jump: His first jump is created by him quickly slamming his front tire into the ground, creating a flipping jump. His second comes from a burst of energy out of his exhaust. It should be noted that he'd have Bowser-quality jump height.

Crawl: Eh, he couldn't do this one. But hey, they only gave us walljumping with like, three characters in Melee. I don't think crawling's going to be an incredibly necessary technique.

...

I'm not going to try and argue that a character who rides a motorcylce with machine guns wouldn't be awesome, since lightning would probably strike me dead. Your moveset is definitely one the most creative I've read and I'd be a filthy liar if I said that I wouldn't like to see Sakurai try and implement it in Brawl.

However, it seems to me that a more Captian Falcon-esque moveset seems more likely for the character. A obscure (yet clearly awesome) character like the Mach Rider probably isn't at the top of Sakurai's list so I just can't see him placing so much importance on him that he would devote the time neccessary to vreate such a complex and unique character - but that's just me.

Also, if we got any samurai character--which we SHOULD--it should be an actual samurai, like say...Takamaru?

I like Saumerais as much as the next guy, but the thought of Japanese-only characters taking up spots on the Brawl roster makes me cringe. There are so many awesome characters that are loved in both Japan and North America - so why include Japanese only characters like Takamaru or American only characters like Laura Croft?


[UOTE=LukeFonFabre;2463945]You're talking about me behind my back!

On the topic of F-Zero characters, I think Goroh probably is the most likely seeing as he's one of the bigger characters in the series and has a pretty huge fanbase. Though seeing as any F-Zero character would have to have a moveset made from scratch, I suppose any character would fit.

Though I agree with Mendez, Takamaru is pretty much Nintendo's Samurai.[/QUOTE]

Goroh or any other F-zero character could have a unique moveset - but they don't necessarily have to. A cloned Goroh is also a possibility.

I strongly disagree with you on the subject of mewtwo, for a few reasons.

Okee-doke. It’s always good to hear a different point of view.

1) Deoxys are ****ing stupid, in every way. For one, next to no one could ever legitimately get them in the games, most pokemon fans HATE the stupid nintendo event crap. For two, they are obscenely overpowered, better than every other pokemon in every conceivable way. Thirdly, they look stupid, what are they even? Bad. Bad is what they are.

If you think that Deoxys is stupid looking, then that’s fine. I don’t disagree. In fact I’ll take it one step further: all the Pokemon look stupid. Every last one freakin’ one of them! If I were Sakurai, I would purge these annoying pests from the series altogether and replace them with Metal Gear Solid characters. But hey, that’s just me.

Frankly, I don’t care which Pokemon make it in. If we must have them as playable characters, I at least want them to be new so the roster has more variety than Melee, but beyond that we could see Paras replace Pikachu for all I care. I chose Lucario and Deoxys, not because I hate them any less, but because they seemed to have the most support on the Pokemon thread than any other new Pokemon.

2) Mewtwo is more iconic for the pokemon series than any other pokemon spare pikachu, tied with Charizard. Those three have always been the iconic pokemon, Charizard not really being eligable as a real character and instead appearing in pokeball for the SSB games. Mewtwo has tremendous potential as a character in Brawl, and really his character in SSBM is magnifacent. They just made him bad. You used the classic, flawed 'He's low tier so he's a bad character concept' logic. I shouldn't have to explain why that is obscenely bad logic, nor why mewtwo is an awesome character, just watch Taj's Combo Video 'ShadowClaw'

I never said that I cut him from the roster because he was low tier. I just make a joke about him being lower on the tier list than Pichu –which is true, but That’s not why I cut him. I cut Mew-two for the same reason that I cut Pichu – because I can. He wasn’t one of the original 12 and his role in the more recent games has been minimal, from what I understand.

If for nothing else, Mewtwo deserves a shot as a more playable character in Brawl, he was jipped in SSBM. And as for 'Out with the old, in with the new,' the more pokemon games they release the worse the pokemon look. Almost all of the coolest/most original pokemon are from the first generation, and even as a fairly competitive Diamond/Pearl player my entire team is Gen1 pokemon and their evolutions, although some of the evolutions come from later generations (Magmortar, Magnezone, Crobat)

I don't have the time to write some diatribe 10 page post about mewtwo, but there's really no reason to, if you don't see character potential you're so senselessly biased it's a waste of energy in the first place. With a few tweaks in Melee to make him ~high tier he would have been an incredible character for tournaments. [/QUOTE]

I assure you, I’m not biased. I hate all the Pokemon equally, regardless of what generation they are from.

Also, which characters will be high tier doesn’t concern me all to be frank. How powerful they are in their game of origin has not bearing on where they fall in the tier list, so any character has the potential to be high tier.

Also, before all the Pokemon fans lynch me: I have nothing against you. If you like to play Pokemon, that’s fine. It’s just not for me. Everything I’ve said is just my own personal opinion, and should not be taken personally.

well...im shocked you actually think falco could be kicked out of brawl. Falcos so cool....hes more foxlike than fox is. Im not saying that Wolf wouldnt be awesome in brawl, but i just have a feeling that falco will come back. But because there arn't going to be any clone characters, i believe that they are going to revamp him in some way or another. (such as that pimped out rocket launcher!) I mainly agree with your post. But i cant belive that falco will be kicked from brawl.

Personally, I think it could go either way. I originally had Falco on my list, but the Wolf fans gave me heck. Personally, I like Falco more but Wolf’s popularity makes him a more likely candidate for a third Starfox character in my opinion.

Hear, hear! I don't think any character on Melee's cast is outdated enough to be removed for that reason alone. Partly because of Melee, they're now well known characters, which means that most of them have a loyal following, even if they haven't been in any more recent games. It is particularly a tragedy for characters that provide unique play-styles to be removed, such as Ice Climbers, Mew Two, G&W, and Sheik (although I suspect that the last of these may be replaced with Zamus, to whom they may give a similar play-style).

The one thing I disagree with you on is removing Young Link, but that's just because he's a personal favorite of mine. I like having a small, agile sword/projectile user like him, so I hope that they merely change him into WW Link and give him a more unique move-set rather than remove him altogether.

Edit: I just wanted to note that I would also have put Ness and Jigglypuff in the category of endangered unique play-style characters, but luckily they're protected as part of the original 12.

Sure, characters like G&W and ICs are popular and unique – but if it comes down to either including them or a pair of unique retro characters I would prefer that they take the later route. I’ve played as the Melee cast enough for one lifetime, now I want to try out as many new characters as possible.

Of course, this goes back to our debate about how easy it is to include returning characters…

Jeeze...Samurai Goroh in the anime stabs jaws...Alright. I don't think ZSS is gonna in the game so Samurai Goroh's back on my list...<_< ...He could be a Takamaru clone...>_>

I suppose I could see that happening if Takamaru makes it in.

Meh, the Triforce shard was a bit of a monkey wrench in the linearity of the story, a way to say "you expected things to speed up now, eh? Yeah, not happening. Now go explore the world at once, dammit!" complete with sadistic laugh by the programmers. Needless to say, I loved it. Anything that gives me a good excuse to go around the world aimlessly, but with some objective, is fine by me.

I actually didn’t find the Triforce quest. I’m with you: any excuse to explore Wind Waker’s massive world.

Haven't really played the latest Dragon Quest, so me either.

Dude, you’ve got to play it. The world in Dragon Quest is about ten times the size of Wind Waker’s and almost as beautiful. If I’m going to check out your sissy cheerleader game, you should go out and rent Dragon Quest VIII at least.

Still, I'm not really that keen on him. I agree that Grit is just much more likeable. Andy looks too much like "generic shonen protagonist #12376".

Agreed.

You're the only person I know that thought that, to be honest. No one here expected Pit to make it into Brawl, and in fact most people wouldn't really associate the name at first.

I actually predicted it also – though I thought his name was Kid Icarus at the time….

Mmmm... I myself enjoyed Paper Mario a lot when I played it on the N64, but I agree that Mario&Luigi games are just better. It's the same formula, only evolved for the better, so of course I have to like them, ne? Also, giving more protagonism to Luigi is always a plus in my book .

Yeah, I wish Luigi would star in more games. His personality is just priceless.

Now, for the changes in Wisey's list... Bonk I can understand, Trode I see it's just you being silly (we all need that sometimes ), but... ROB is the most implausible piece of utter genius you could come up with. Not happening, of course, but it would be oh so awesome. Five stars for that one, man.

Yeah, tragically Trode has zero shot of appearing…

ROB actually seems like the kind of surprise character that Sakurai would throw in just to blow our minds, so I actually see him as a possibility. At the very least, he could be an item or a map.

 

[Numa Dude]

That was pretty entertaining, but to be fair - that was from the F-Zero anime and not the game. Give the dwindeling popularity of F-Zero recently, I'll be happy if Goroh gets in period (clone or not) but I'll conceed that he has the makings of an awesome sword based moveset.

Does it matter if it came from the anime? The point is he can use the sword and there are other videos besides that one that can prove it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZmXhHnf-Q

Just what do you mean "Dwindling popularity"? Just because a new game hasn't been made in a while doesn't mean the games are any less popular. I just don't understand why people think so little of F-Zero. IT HAD AN ANIME! Only Nintendo's biggest franchises get an anime.

 

[King Xander]

I-Ninja=Unrecognized Jewel for the GameCube.One very good game, many challenges.Hmm, what if I-Ninja was in Brawl?He already has combos and such...It would be cool to me to say the least!

 

[the grim lizard]

Well, I log on to see if my beloved thread had died again - only to discover that it had expoded! In graditude, I'm going to respond to EVERYONE who posted in my absesnce. Am I insane for taking on such a feat? Maybe.

You didn't respond to the things I said (which were very reasonable and succinct), and I helped the thread to explode again (I added a post, which...people always seem to look at the threads closer to the top.)

Major points (without the detailed support):
Balloon Fighter, Falco, Mewtwo, 3rd party characters, Stafy

In short...

 

[Phaazoid]

@wiseguy
yeah, i guess the black shadow (gasp, i said it) shouldn't get in. i really haven't gotten to any of Falcons villains yet, so i just guessed according to how there names sounded. Samurai Gorah for brawl!

 

[LukeFonFabre]

So the truth comes out! To think that all this time I assumed that Luke Fon Fabre was his actual name...

It is my actual name, the othe Luke's the imposter, I swear!

Curse you Mendez, he's on to me now.

But if you enjoyed Symphonia Wiseguy then you'll be very pleased with Abyss. The battle system is improved, and personally IO think the story is better. There are less characters than Symphonia, but the mage characters are more fun to play as because they can handle themselves in physical combat.

Goroh or any other F-zero character could have a unique moveset - but they don't necessarily have to. A cloned Goroh is also a possibility.

Well yeah, but so is a cloned Black Shadow *shuuders at the thought*. The F-Zero cast is generally quite adaptable, it just depends on how Sakurai wants tro go about it.

 

[Wiseguy]

Does it matter if it came from the anime? The point is he can use the sword and there are other videos besides that one that can prove it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZmXhHnf-Q

Just what do you mean "Dwindling popularity"? Just because a new game hasn't been made in a while doesn't mean the games are any less popular. I just don't understand why people think so little of F-Zero. IT HAD AN ANIME! Only Nintendo's biggest franchises get an anime.

Well F-zero GX sold quite poorly, from what I understand, the anime was cancelled and most people I talk to here usually say something to the effect of "F-Zero isn't important enough to justify more than one character". For what its worth though, I still like the series and i hope Nintendo continues the F-Zero franchise.

I-Ninja=Unrecognized Jewel for the GameCube.One very good game, many challenges.Hmm, what if I-Ninja was in Brawl?He already has combos and such...It would be cool to me to say the least!

I-Ninja is my favorite platformer by far. It owns Super Mario Sunshine by a landslide.

I'd love to see Ninja appear in Brawl, but his niche status makes him pretty unnlikely, sadly.

@wiseguy
yeah, i guess the black shadow (gasp, i said it) shouldn't get in. i really haven't gotten to any of Falcons villains yet, so i just guessed according to how there names sounded. Samurai Gorah for brawl!

Glad you came around.

You didn't respond to the things I said (which were very reasonable and succinct), and I helped the thread to explode again (I added a post, which...people always seem to look at the threads closer to the top.)

Major points (without the detailed support):
Balloon Fighter, Falco, Mewtwo, 3rd party characters, Stafy

In short...

I apologize sir. I didn't read your first post because I carelessly didn't notice it, and your second post dely with mewtwo - which I already covered. I'll get on it right now:

Wiseguy-

I don't know if I've commented yet, but some quick feedback.

First, You may want to check into Balloon Fighter a little bit. He a lot more of a chance than a lot of those guys for some simple reason: they already made the character for Melee. I'm sure you've heard it (maybe) but they pulled him because with the time crunch, they would rather develop the unique ICs than BF. He is a very very likely character and should likely be in your top lineup. (I won't go into further argument here.)

Yeah, BF has a pretty good shot - but his chances decrease for every other retro character who gets in. With Pit already confirmed and Geno a likely candidate, I elected not to inlcude him - but only by a small margin.

Second (and I'm sure you've gotten flack about this already), You have Dark Samus, K. Rool, Tom Nook and Miis in and no Falco. There is seriously something wrong with that. I dunno, maybe you're right, and he'll get cut. But all I know is, Sakurai will have some very angry fans on his hands...to cut the most popular character in the series?? He's be better off taking out Fox. Anyone who doesn't believe me probably hasn't played SF64. Either way, check out the vid in my sig.

Well, it was a tough call. Falco is a great character on his own merits (my favorite in the SF series in fact) but it eventually came down to the fact that he has already appeared in a Smash Bros already and Wolf deserves the same chance. Really, it could go either way.

By the way, great video! Thanks for sharing that.

Along those lines, you'd probably want to re-think Mewtwo as well. I'm not sure what the chance are of all three (Mewtwo, Lucario and Deoxys) getting in, but Mewtwo is too much of a crowd pleaser. Despite sucking majorly (not my opinion by the masses') in Melee, he is still one of the most popular Pokemon out there (and that's not limited to just the Poke fanboys). Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that Sakurai likes him. I don't know how Sakurai personally feels about Falco, but I'm pretty sure he won't want to cut M2.

Well, it really wouldn't bother me if mewtwo returns. You should take my Pokemon predictions with a grain of salt - given my limited exposure to the series. As long as no more than four get in, I'm cool with whatever Pokemon fans want.

Third, I don't know if you did it because you didn't know who to pick, but...you have six 3rd party characters. Sakurai said 3 max. Nuff said there.

Well, Sakurai's quote wasn't an offical confirmation - just a rough estimate. But yeah, that aspect of my roster is pretty optimistic, no doubt. My intention was to choose the characters I suspect Sakurai and Nintendo would LIKE to include.

Finally, I like your list overall, but you included a lot of very iffy characters that probably shouldn't get in over some others. It seems you haven't considered Stafy at all. Stafy is without a doubt one of the most unique characters I've seen. He's right up there with Olimar, and I know how much you love him. You should check out this guy, too...

Otherwise, pretty good list. We're just about on the same page.

Also, how about Tamagon as a runner for some support for him? (Check out the thread link below.)

Stafy? Well, I have nothing against the character per say, but I would prefer that his games be released outside japan before he is considered for Brawl. Sakurai did express reluctance to include more Japanese-only characters... (though if fairness, he also said he still might).

Once again I apologize for forgetting you. You had some well thought out opinions, which I appreciate. I hope you continue to hang out here, but that's your choice.

@Luke: Gotta leave. Reply later. Sorry.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Please, NEVER put Sora in Brawl, Sakurai.
I appreciate that it would be murder to Sony, but that's not a good enough reason.
Maybe it's just that I have a bias against characters related to Final Fantasy, but I just can't see him in Brawl.
I also have trouble seeing Megaman in Brawl, and I have miserable hope that the Ice Climbers will return. Also, no Meowth makes me sad, but I completely understand.
You do understand that Pokemon will be heavily represented, because it's Nintendo's second cash-cow, right? Have you seen the insane sales in both Japan and North America for Diamond and Pearl?

 

[Numa Dude]

Well F-zero GX sold quite poorly, from what I understand, the anime was cancelled and most people I talk to here usually say something to the effect of "F-Zero isn't important enough to justify more than one character". For what its worth though, I still like the series and i hope Nintendo continues the F-Zero franchise.

One game selling poorly makes a series unpopular and undeserving of smash reps? Oh and the anime was only canceled in America (Probably because it was on a Saturday morning cartoon lineup.) In Japan the anime finished. Any one who says F-Zero doesn't deserve more reps is a ****** (I once saw someone on the rate their chances thread say that and then immediately after nominate Gex).

 

[the grim lizard]

One game selling poorly makes a series unpopular and undeserving of smash reps? Oh and the anime was only canceled in America (Probably because it was on a Saturday morning cartoon lineup.) In Japan the anime finished. Any one who says F-Zero doesn't deserve more reps is a ****** (I once saw someone on the rate their chances thread say that and then immediately after nominate Gex).

Not to mention Captain Falcon is hands-down the coolest character in Melee...

"Show me your moves!"

On that note...I really don't know what the reason is that GX sold poorly (maybe poor marketing?)...I bought it and played it, and it's a blast! It's one of the better F-Zero games. You actually feel like you're going the insane speeds. I thought it was a good one. Having said that, I never completed it because I didn't dedicate the time, and I sucked.

 

[Phaazoid]

just because one game didn't sell well doesn't mean it wasn't good, or that the main characters sucked. i love GX, the story mode is just a little hard...

 

[Pip]

Again, I'm no programer, but I suspect that if a character is character is broken on multiple levels (*Cough* Shiek *cough*) then it would be easier to design a similar character from scratch with the Brawl engine specifically in mind than to fix a character who is busted to its core. This is especially true if (as I suspect) the Smash team is aiming to make Brawl as balanced as SSB 64.

...
...
...

I compared G&W with Mii becuase they are two characters with very basic appearances and wacky movesets. So it seems to me that rather than adjusting G&W's stats and lag to make him more competitive they could simply design the Mii as his replacement in about the same period of time.

A couple of things here. First of all, I don't think it's accurate to classify any character in Melee as "busted to its core". If that were true then it would be much easier for player A (who, in this thought exercise, is somewhat more skilled) to lose to player B (who is somewhat less skilled) based purely on character choice. I don't think that's the case with this game, however. Who comes out the victor in a given match is still vastly more dependent on player skill than character choice, which tells me that in this game there simply aren't characters that are "busted to their core."

Secondly, G&W's move-set is heavily based upon his own identity as a video game character, an identity that the Miis don't share (at least as far as I'm aware). It wouldn't be appropriate for Miis to be flipping out sausages, catching attacks in a pail, hitting people with keys and manhole covers, etc. Just because they're (sort of) the same type of video game character doesn't mean that they would play the same in Smash. I can't see a Mii character being designed similarly enough to G&W to make it anywhere as easy to develop and balance as simply bringing G&W back.

How is that game by the way? It's another PS2 game I'd like to try out.

I know you were asking Mendez, but I just have to throw in my two cents and say that it's the best FF game in recent memory and one of best of all time. Provided that you're okay with the switch to a semi-AI-based party control scheme (personally I think the gambit system is one of the most interesting elements of the gameplay), I'd heavily reccommend it.

Sure, characters like G&W and ICs are popular and unique – but if it comes down to either including them or a pair of unique retro characters I would prefer that they take the later route. I’ve played as the Melee cast enough for one lifetime, now I want to try out as many new characters as possible.

Of course, this goes back to our debate about how easy it is to include returning characters…

For me, this is really a matter of just how unique the new retro characters are in terms of game play. IC in particular offered a game play experience that no other characters did, so I'd be really disappointed to see them go unless it meant getting something equally or more unique in return (no small feat!).

 

[some_jerk]

Miis?!?! I strongly disagree with that one.

 

[Phaazoid]

@some jerk
again, read and then discuss. please. as for mii's why not?they would be fun and awesome. good combo.

 

[the grim lizard]

Stafy? Well, I have nothing against the character per say, but I would prefer that his games be released outside japan before he is considered for Brawl. Sakurai did express reluctance to include more Japanese-only characters... (though if fairness, he also said he still might).

I think he would be an amazing character. He's one of the few up for grabs who has several games. Despite being Japan-only, thus far, we've already seen how bring these characters to a game like Smash offers a door for selling games in the US, etc. Plus, if you've seen some of the gameplay, it looks really fun (sort of Kirby-like). I could see him getting in.

And, not that I really think this guy will get in, but how about Tamagon as an "honorable mention", eh?...

 

[Phaazoid]

stafy looks like a fun addition, i hope he makes it.

 

[Chief Mendez]

C'mon, dood!

Man I love summer vacation. Waking up at 2PM...eating bowls of cereal...playing some Viewtiful Joe 2...then wasting a few hours on SmashBoards.com...good times.

Another idea is Mach having some sort of cool future looking gear with wheels on the arm so he could almost pull a transformer type deal (extending his arms out and using the wheels while running to mock the look of a bike). But this idea might be a little farfetched.

There's an old PS2 game called Kinetica that works like that. It's not really relevant, I just thought of it after reading what you wrote.

Also, I forgot about wall-jumping, but it'd be kickin' with Mach Rider.

Well, I'm back, after failing calculus.

If it makes you feel any better, there are people out there worse at math than you. POR EJEMPLO:

I've taken Algebra I three times...once in 8th grade, once as a freshman, then again as a junior. The best part? I passed it in 8th and 9th, but failed it this year. Summer school ftw!

Haven't really played the latest Dragon Quest, so me either.

Trode's cool and all, but he's not Smash material. I played about half of VIII (if I'd more than borrowed it, I probably would've beaten it), but from what I saw of Trode, he's the second best character after Yangus.

Still, I'm not really that keen on him. I agree that Grit is just much more likeable. Andy looks too much like "generic shonen protagonist #12376".

Grit is the best CO evar.

And you know, I gave Andy someone else's CO Powersas his B moves...the coolest CO evar: Jake.

"Get the plates, cuz you just got served!"

And it's spelled "dood", with two "o", not "dude". Learn your prinny, people.

I'm not really knowledgeable yet on D/P, having started two days ago, so I can't say anything about that. I will say, however, that the initial pokemon did look very bad with the exception of Piplup (lessee... ugly turtle with a raddish on its head, deformed, overstretched monkey who looks a bit ********, or cute little penguin. Yeah, hard decision there). I do prefer my new Staravia to my old Pidgeotto, though.

Piplup also happens to have the best final evolution: an iron penguin emperor.

Deoxys are ****ing stupid, in every way. For one, next to no one could ever legitimately get them in the games, most pokemon fans HATE the stupid nintendo event crap. For two, they are obscenely overpowered, better than every other pokemon in every conceivable way. Thirdly, they look stupid, what are they even? Bad. Bad is what they are.

I know. 99% of the pokemon fanbase will never get to play with Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus, Celebi, Deoxys, or Mew...cheating excluded. The only hope we have is the GTS...but the only people who're ever going to trade them are the lucky punks who got a broken Japanese copy...

Also Deoxys is modeled after DNA. Just an F.Y.I.

At least you have an excuse, my copy is in good order and collecting dust. I usually enjoy challenging games (anyone here played I-Ninja ?) but GX's story mode was so mind-bogingly hard that I was forced to give up.

I rented I-Ninja after Nintendo Power gave it a good score. It was okay.

But yah...GX's story mode was not only absurdly difficult, but it cost moneys to buy more chapters, which I never understood.

Come on! Trode would rock! He could use his alchemy pot to create an item out of thin air and his horse daughter could trample his opponents as his Super Attack.and-

Geez, I just realized that I'm starting to sound like McFox when he talks about Paras...

Yeah, that McFox...what a freak cool guy.

Wind Waker's story is one of the better ones in the series, no doubt, but at it's core WW still follows the same old Triforce storyline that has been with the series since the beggining. Majora's Mask's storyline is far superior because it's off the wall plot never ceases to surprise.

And while WW's cast was certianly not lacking in the personality department, it simply can't top MM. The Meanacing moon? A dancing ghost? An invisible soldier? The introduction of Tingle? The Skull Kid as the main villian? ALIENS ABDUCTING COWS?!? Sorry, but Termainia's inhabitants are far more compelling.

We could also see someone from the awesome Advance Wars spinoff: Battaleon Wars.

How is that game by the way? It's another PS2 game I'd like to try out.

In a word: "long". And not "long" in a good way, but rather "long" in a "christ arethese areas big and pointless" sort of way. It was better than X and X-2, but it had it's fair share of problems. However, Gilgamesh is in it, so there's like, a billion awesome points for it.

Pick it up and give it a shot though.

However, it seems to me that a more Captian Falcon-esque moveset seems more likely for the character. A obscure (yet clearly awesome) character like the Mach Rider probably isn't at the top of Sakurai's list so I just can't see him placing so much importance on him that he would devote the time neccessary to vreate such a complex and unique character - but that's just me.

Hey, Sakurai created an entirely new character concept for a stupidly obscure pair of mountain climbers. He might look like Falcon, but if he's in, he'd be different than him.

I actually didn’t find the Triforce quest.

This had better be a typo.

I-Ninja is my favorite platformer by far. It owns Super Mario Sunshine by a landslide.

Wow, really?

But if you enjoyed Symphonia Wiseguy then you'll be very pleased with Abyss. The battle system is improved, and personally IO think the story is better. There are less characters than Symphonia, but the mage characters are more fun to play as because they can handle themselves in physical combat.

Abyss was better than Symphonia in almost every category (the pulled-out camera in battles always weirded me out, especially when fighting Asch near the end), plus...where's the multiplayer?

Not to mention Captain Falcon is hands-down the coolest character in Melee...

Even Link knows it!

I know you were asking Mendez, but I just have to throw in my two cents and say that it's the best FF game in recent memory and one of best of all time. Provided that you're okay with the switch to a semi-AI-based party control scheme (personally I think the gambit system is one of the most interesting elements of the gameplay), I'd heavily reccommend it.

VI is the best FF "in recent memory", and altogether period.

That's one of the problems I had with XII. The game made you put all your thought into preparation pre-battle than actually during the fighting. It felt sort of disjointed to me. But again, Gilgamesh saves it.

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[Phaazoid]

lol, that spells pie. that was funny, shief mendez

 

[the grim lizard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip
Not to mention Captain Falcon is hands-down the coolest character in Melee...
Even Link knows it!

I said this. Not Pip.

Man I love summer vacation. Waking up at 2PM...eating bowls of cereal...playing some Viewtiful Joe 2...then wasting a few hours on SmashBoards.com...good times.

Yeah, then you get older and...you work 40 hours a week. So...yeah, enjoy it while it lasts. (But you also go to college where you only have like 15 hours of class a week, and then you can spend a buttload of time playing Smash and other stuff...)