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Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

Pieman0920

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Actually, it's quite clear that most of the time Sakurai tries to add as much that actually is from a character's game as possible. It's only in cases where he completely redoes a character that they get completely different fighting styles are in cases where the character in question didn't have much to begin with. Additionally, those characters are usually used in this manner are meant to be unique, instead of fanservice oriented characters. =/
 

PrettyGoodYear

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But that's just it. After Ike and Marth, the Fire Emblem fanbase loses its unity, and splits of into a bunch of character subgroups. So no character really rises above the rest, and thus there isn't really any good character choice. In this situation, I think Sakurai would move on and select major characters from other franchises, rather than fiddle around with a confusing mess of minor Fire Emblem characters.
Sakurai: Guys, who should the third FE rep be?
Studio guy 1: How about Sigurd?
SG2: No, Micaiah is better!
SG3: But, but, what about the Black Knight, FE needs a villain!!
SG2: We can put him in the SSE, Micaiah deserves the spot!
SG1: No, it should be S-I-G-U-R-D!
Sakurai: If we can't make up our minds, then screw it, no third FE rep!

:ohwell:
 

Wiseguy

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Well, the fact still remains that Dr. Kawashima wouldn't be accreditted as a Touch Generations representative. He's only found in the Brain Age games. If he played a role in all touch games, I could understand, but he stands for Brain Age. No more. No less.
But he starred in the very FIRST Touch generations title. Surely that counts for something.

Having Villagers with upgraded character designs fighting in the foreground and Villagers with older character designs in the background wouldn't be æsthetically pleasing. All playable characters have increased detail.

Or it could be because hats are optional in the DS version, if I recall correctly.
Yes, but the fact that there are no Viking hats at all leaves the door open for a hated villager PC.

Did G&W have to be bizarre to get a spot on the roster? No, he was very important regardless fits as a character in an action game. Solid Snake also isn't bizarre in-and-of-himself; he's just an unexpected choice for a third-party character, but he still fits as a character in an action game. Now Kawashima on the other hand doesn't fit. He already fails the first rule of inclusion, that being he didn't originate from a video game. He's not even a character; he is a real person. Would Sakurai really include him as anything other than a bad joke?
I suspect that G&W's craziness had a huge part in his being chosen over the likes of Wario, for example. Having a stick figure as a PC is simply an insane concept.

And the very notion of having Solid Snake in Brawl is VERY bizzare no matter how you slice it. The faact that you can have Solid Snake and Pikachu in the same game proves that there is no character that can't "fit".

Yes, Kawahima is based on a real person. Just like Mario is based on the real life landlord of one of the dudes on the Donkey Kong arcade team. And just like the Legend of Zelda is based on Miamoto's real life experience of exploring the countryside around his house, exploring caves and killing octorocks. Check. Mate.

And Kawahima would not be a bad joke. He would be an AWESOME joke.

Like I said, all stages have multiple music tracks, right? Pictochat does not have any background music, and neither does the DS menu (unless you want an entire song based on the "bu-duh bu-dah" startup sound effect). Therefore, the SSBB team will have to get music from another source, so hy not Wii menu music or Brain Age music? It's menu music that fits the feel of the Pictochat stage. Why not put it in? It's not like they have a choice anyway, since the DS doesn't have any music of its own. Because of that, having music that doesn't originate from the DS hardware realm itself means nothing. Besides, they'd use the Touch! Generations icon instead of the DS icon if they wanted Pictochat to fall under more than the just the DS.
That's one possibility, to be sure. But while Picto char doesn't NECESSARILY mean anything, for all we know it does. Even if the music for Pictochat was thrown together haphazardly, they might have still created the stage for Dr. K in mind. It's certainly more interesting than a stage designed around floating numbers...

And the DS icon works fine as a symbol of casual games.

Because Pictochat and the DS menus have no music, that's why. They had to take it from SOMEWHERE.

I might PM you a Claus profile... I just need a good picture.

EDIT: I did it... I was just too lazy to look for a picture so I went and took a snapshot of the final battle against Claus.
The Claus profile is very well done. It's in Nintendo Runnerup: Part 2.


I'm just saying the fact that Marth should be nerfed and the possibility that he might not return are unrelated. You sometimes mention Marth's overpowered condition in Melee as a reason for why Marth shouldn't return or why the developers wouldn't want him to bring Marth back (or why they'd want to replace him with a heavy character). I just want you to admit that this isn't a valid point. Performance in Melee is not a factor to consider for the brawl roster.
I admit that Marth's high tier status likely had no beaering on whether or not he was incluuded in Brawl. However, Ike's radically different stats chould not come as a surprise IF he is in fact designed as a Marth replacement.

So far as Takamaru goes, I'd say the possibility that a new character would make a veteran redundant is a bigger argument against the newcomer than the veteran. I'm not saying Takamaru won't make it in, but if he's really going to be as close to Marth as you seem to be implying, then it seems like it would be far easier to just bring back Marth and spend all that saved development time on something more worthwhile, like Olimar.
Perhaps. But he was one of the most requested characters on Sakurai's poll, so he might be worth some extra effort. I'm just speculating, obviously.

But I support any and all time saving measures that go towards development of Olimar. He and Ridley are the only other characters that MUST make the cut, in my opinion.

So... Ike was a Marth replacement at first, but then they changed all his moves to fit Ike as a character and then changed all his stats so that he'd be a heavy character instead of a fast one? And that all this changed Ike so much that they'd then have to bring in ANOTHER new character (Takamaru) to replace Marth? Then you admit that, as he is now, Ike isn't filling Marth's niche?

Cool, because that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Ike isn't a Marth replacement, and thus his moveset isn't part of the argument for Marth's inclusion or exclusion from Brawl.
We differ in that you believe that way back in the development time line Ike was originally intended to replace Marth, but it seems we both agree that Ike isn't a Marth replacement NOW, which is my point.
Ike isn't a replacement for Marth, and thus isn't really part of the will-he-won't-he-return argument. So it just comes down to whether or not Marth has enough going for him as a character to warrent his return. I'm sure you already know my thoughts on that.
Yeah, I guess we do admit that Ike isn't a Marth replacement in terms of the role. Judging by the gameplay vids, I must admit that his stats are too dissimilar to be intended to fill the void for Marth mains.

I do think it's possible that Marth's attributes might be given to serval replacements (including Ike) however.

In all due respect: You shut your filthy mouth. You shut it and you never open it again.
100% Agreed. Olimar is way too awesome for such slander.

Well I like the list...except for not having Marth on it cause it's "against your religion." Besides that good job.
It was a joke, really. I have a reputation for disliking the character, even though I don't (not since Fire Emblem DS was announced, anyway). You can read my argumument for not including Marth in Nintendo Runnerup Part 2.

Ya, I think they might just put like-series and like-genre songs for each stage. For example, what music would a Game & Watch stage use? The Game & Watch games don't have any music (even though the Game Boy compilations did...) so they wrote an original song for Flat Zone that was kinda techno-y and had some Game & Watch sounds mixed in. That's probably what Pictochat (the song) is; an original song with the DS bells and digital sounds mixed in.

They probably just put menu music and games that fit the graphical style for Pictochat. A Game & Watch stage would probably have Flat Zone, Game & Watch Gallery music, and maybe old Nintendo arcade game music etc. An Ice Climber stage would be another example of a lack of music; they could probably slip in music from other obscure NES games like they did with Balloon Fight. A Nazo no Murasamejou stage would suffer the same fate and probably get obscure Japan-only music. F-Zero (and Mario Circuit, though that'll probably get Mario spinoff music) could get music from obscure driving and racing games.

Anyway, you see where I'm with this. Not all series have enough (or any) music to draw from so they could have some extra songs to play on those stages and there are probably songs they want to include that aren't part of the symbol represented series.

Also, 4/25+ doesn't seem like it'd overshadow much of anything. That's like saying the sword characters overshadow everyone else, lol.

And you can never have enough unique sword characters. :x
Sounds reasonable. But whether or not the stage was designed with a PC in mind is another question.

I just had a wacky thought...

What would happen if Sakurai decided to not include one of the "popular" picks for a third-party slot and went with something completely out of left field...like "Hero" from Drawn-to-Life?

Think about it:
Represents the DS (perhaps the DS logo?)
A complex enough character to have a CAC mode, but simple enough to keep everything in balance.
Increase game sales for Drawn-to-Life.
It's a cool idea, but not only is the game pretty obscure - the developer is a relative unknown as well.

On a realated note, I've heard mixed opinions on this game. Is is any good?

Sakurai: Guys, who should the third FE rep be?
Studio guy 1: How about Sigurd?
SG2: No, Micaiah is better!
SG3: But, but, what about the Black Knight, FE needs a villain!!
SG2: We can put him in the SSE, Micaiah deserves the spot!
SG1: No, it should be S-I-G-U-R-D!
Sakurai: If we can't make up our minds, then screw it, no third FE rep!

:ohwell:
I know for a fact that Sakurai is studio guy 3.
 

Legolastom

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I'm sorry but he isn't even a Nintendo character. He is a real person. Not to mention all the other complications.
 

FaceGuy

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I'd like to suggest Shigeru Miyamoto for a WTF character. I know Sakurai is already in there, but other than Smash Bros, he's not known that well, and I doubt he'd decide to put himself in a game he was directing himself anyway. I know he was pretty much suggested as a joke, but Miyamoto seems more likely to me, having created a large number of the characters and series in the game himself ;)

Seems pretty massively unlikely that he actually would get put in, but considering the audience of this game (Nintendo fans), he would fit in much better than he would in any other game. If not a playable character, I insist he be made into a stage featuring live action visuals!
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I'd like to suggest Shigeru Miyamoto for a WTF character. I know Sakurai is already in there, but other than Smash Bros, he's not known that well, and I doubt he'd decide to put himself in a game he was directing himself anyway. I know he was pretty much suggested as a joke, but Miyamoto seems more likely to me, having created a large number of the characters and series in the game himself ;)

Seems pretty massively unlikely that he actually would get put in, but considering the audience of this game (Nintendo fans), he would fit in much better than he would in any other game. If not a playable character, I insist he be made into a stage featuring live action visuals!
Sakurai is not going to be in Smash
 

FaceGuy

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Sorry I meant Sakurai was already suggested in this thread. Although clearly as a joke.
 

Devastlian

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Why, what has Brain Age ever done for you?

And even if you hate it, there are millions worldwide who love it. Doen't those gamers deserve some representation as well?
Ya, that's why the game got a sequel. It's been confirmed that a song from Brain Training will be in and there could a trophy or sticker belonging to it as well. There's your representation.
 

Legolastom

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The fact that it is a tiny series that is not marketed at the people that will buy this game.

That he is a giant head.

That he only used maths and books and stuff.

The fact that the Nintendog is already and AT.
 

Wiseguy

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I'd like to suggest Shigeru Miyamoto for a WTF character. I know Sakurai is already in there, but other than Smash Bros, he's not known that well, and I doubt he'd decide to put himself in a game he was directing himself anyway. I know he was pretty much suggested as a joke, but Miyamoto seems more likely to me, having created a large number of the characters and series in the game himself ;)

Seems pretty massively unlikely that he actually would get put in, but considering the audience of this game (Nintendo fans), he would fit in much better than he would in any other game. If not a playable character, I insist he be made into a stage featuring live action visuals!
If they're going to go about including real peole as PCs (who aren't also Nintendo videogame characters) I say just include Mii. Then Sakurai and Miamoto could have a team match against Dr. Zoidberg and Chewbacca!

Ya, that's why the game got a sequel. It's been confirmed that a song from Brain Training will be in and there could a trophy or sticker belonging to it as well. There's your representation.
It's a start, I guess, but I still think tha the casual crowd are important enough to warrent their own PC.
 

Wiseguy

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The fact that it is a tiny series that is not marketed at the people that will buy this game.

That he is a giant head.

That he only used maths and books and stuff.

The fact that the Nintendog is already and AT.
1) Actually, I disagree. The Wii-mote only controll scheme seems designed with casual gamers in mind.

2) They could easily give him an actual body based on the real person, but in the same graphical style as his videogame.

3) So? He could fight with the power of knowlege! Or shoot a beam of math equations.

4) You're point being?

Brain training is aimed at old people not the casual market.

And er... Mii's would do that.
My little sister plays the Brain games too.

And Miis could totally do that, I agree. I would actually prefer Miis, but they're online icon status complicates things.
 

OysterMeister

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I'd say the biggest problem with Dr. Kawashima is that he's not really a character, in the sense that he never does anything relating to a story or plot and incurs no emotional attachment from the player.
The good doctor takes on the roles of title screen, menu, and narrator in Brain Age, and that's it. I'm not sure if that's really enough to be considered a Nintendo all-star.
I mean, Midna was a hint system and battle mechanic in Twilight Princess, but I wouldn't say any of those things made her a character. It was her interaction with people and objects that related to a plot that made her memorable.
 

Arteen

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I suspect that G&W's craziness had a huge part in his being chosen over the likes of Wario, for example. Having a stick figure as a PC is simply an insane concept.
Neither of us can say it with certainty, but I believe that G&W had priority over Wario for other reasons. Mainly, Wario is a popular Mario character with spinoff games, but G&W has an entire series of games that served as the pivotal precursor to Nintendo's hugely successful line of handhelds. For that reason, he's immensely more important that Wario.

Yes, Kawahima is based on a real person. Just like Mario is based on the real life landlord of one of the dudes on the Donkey Kong arcade team. And just like the Legend of Zelda is based on Miamoto's real life experience of exploring the countryside around his house, exploring caves and killing octorocks. Check. Mate.
Checkmate? How so? There's a huge difference between a character inspired be real life (most things are) and the digital likeness of a real person. Why don't we just stick in Madden as a playable character? He'd be more awesome than Kawashima, that's for sure. ;)

And Kawahima would not be a bad joke. He would be an AWESOME joke.
But it wouldn't be funny! :(
 

Wiseguy

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I'd say the biggest problem with Dr. Kawashima is that he's not really a character, in the sense that he never does anything relating to a story or plot and incurs no emotional attachment from the player.
The good doctor takes on the roles of title screen, menu, and narrator in Brain Age, and that's it. I'm not sure if that's really enough to be considered a Nintendo all-star.
I mean, Midna was a hint system and battle mechanic in Twilight Princess, but I wouldn't say any of those things made her a character. It was her interaction with people and objects that related to a plot that made her memorable.
Well, in certain games there is no story to speak of. The game & watch games and Ice Climbers are exmples of this. So it's not quite fair to judge Twilight Princess and Brain Age on that level.

But in terms of emotional atachment, I sort of disagree. Dr. K has a fair bit of personality for a mere narrator, often taunting and insulting the player for their poor preformance. He's also unquestionably a gaming icon.

Neither of us can say it with certainty, but I believe that G&W had priority over Wario for other reasons. Mainly, Wario is a popular Mario character with spinoff games, but G&W has an entire series of games that served as the pivotal precursor to Nintendo's hugely successful line of handhelds. For that reason, he's immensely more important that Wario.
You're right, it's all speculation. But I wouldn't rule out his craziness as a factor.

Checkmate? How so? There's a huge difference between a character inspired be real life (most things are) and the digital likeness of a real person. Why don't we just stick in Madden as a playable character? He'd be more awesome than Kawashima, that's for sure. ;)
I dunno... I just like saying check mate.

And for the record, I once toyed around with the idea of putting Madden on my list.

But it wouldn't be funny! :(

I, for one, would find it hilarious.
 

Devastlian

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It's a start, I guess, but I still think tha the casual crowd are important enough to warrent their own PC.
WTF are you talking about? I doubt that, since they probably don't care about SSBB in the first place, they'd care about being represented in it. If they don't identify with Mario or Donkey Kong to begin with (nevermind the more non-mainstream characters) then they probably wouldn't give SSBB a second glance.
 

OysterMeister

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Well, in certain games there is no story to speak of. The game & watch games and Ice Climbers are exmples of this. So it's not quite fair to judge Twilight Princess and Brain Age on that level.

But in terms of emotional atachment, I sort of disagree. Dr. K has a fair bit of personality for a mere narrator, often taunting and insulting the player for their poor preformance. He's also unquestionably a gaming icon.
Yeah, but they were more limited by the technology of the time. There's only so much plot that can fit into a game and watch game.
But there was still some story. Game and Watch was trying to save people from a fire, or spray bugs, or protect his garden, or dive for treasure, or play against someone in a bizarre numbers-and-mallets-based game of chance. And the Ice Climbers were trying to recover stolen food so their village wouldn't starve in what I can only imagine is a harsh arctic winter.
The Brain Age games has no story though. In the literal sense. No. Story. And generally no story means no characters.

And Dr. K certainly is the face of the self-improvement genre of games, which is becoming fairly popular, I can't deny that. But despite having a low-poly avatar, Dr. K doesn't seem any more likely to me than Miyamoto as a Brawl character. Although Miyamoto did say there was a 1% chance he'd be a character...
 

2.72

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this isn't a wolf costume, that screenshot sure makes it look that way though.

its just a darker fox color
Wolf should at least get runner-up status.

-2.72
QFT.

Yes, I did just quote my own comment for truth. Deal with it.

Wolf should definitely not be a runner-up. The alternate costume argument is irrefutable, even when he isn't an alternate costume. Luigi's not going to be in because Bowser doesn't have an alternate Luigi costume.

Seriously, Gimpyfish says that the costume is not a wolf costume. It's like saying Luigi isn't going to be in because mario has a luigi-ish costume.

-2.72
 

Wiseguy

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WTF are you talking about? I doubt that, since they probably don't care about SSBB in the first place, they'd care about being represented in it. If they don't identify with Mario or Donkey Kong to begin with (nevermind the more non-mainstream characters) then they probably wouldn't give SSBB a second glance.
I don't know, there's probably already quite a few of the Brain Age folk playing Mario Party - and it's not so absurd to see them picking up Brawl as a party game. And while they likely won't buy the game to play as Dr. K, they would likely get a kick out of seeing a character they they are familiar with from a series they love.

You know Madden only appeals to one country that the game will be released in?
Which is why I ruled him out after sonsidering him briefly.

Yeah, but they were more limited by the technology of the time. There's only so much plot that can fit into a game and watch game.
But there was still some story. Game and Watch was trying to save people from a fire, or spray bugs, or protect his garden, or dive for treasure, or play against someone in a bizarre numbers-and-mallets-based game of chance. And the Ice Climbers were trying to recover stolen food so their village wouldn't starve in what I can only imagine is a harsh arctic winter.
The Brain Age games has no story though. In the literal sense. No. Story. And generally no story means no characters.

And Dr. K certainly is the face of the self-improvement genre of games, which is becoming fairly popular, I can't deny that. But despite having a low-poly avatar, Dr. K doesn't seem any more likely to me than Miyamoto as a Brawl character. Although Miyamoto did say there was a 1% chance he'd be a character...
Brain Age totally has a story as well. It involves Dr. K's selfless quest to make the unwashed masses less stupid. One player at a time...

Honestly though, I disagree that a character in a fighting game needs a complex backstory.



QFT.

Yes, I did just quote my own comment for truth. Deal with it.

Wolf should definitely not be a runner-up. The alternate costume argument is irrefutable, even when he isn't an alternate costume. Luigi's not going to be in because Bowser doesn't have an alternate Luigi costume.

Seriously, Gimpyfish says that the costume is not a wolf costume. It's like saying Luigi isn't going to be in because mario has a luigi-ish costume.

-2.72

You make a fair point. I'll type up a runnersup profile for Wolf soon soon.
 

Sasha

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You can create your own stages this time?! No way. REALLY?! With a feature like that, won’t I be able to play this game forever?! Those who enjoy a little effort may be able to enjoy this stage builder for the rest of their lives.
Meaning... Brawl IS the final smash bros game?
 

Copperpot

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It seems that Sakurai is, in fact, using the DS icon as more of a general 'doesn't fit anywhere else' icon. Think about it. Build a stage, Pictochat, Wii music, etc. is all getting represented under a solitary entity.

I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but I love it. The 'Build a Stage' update is one of the coolest updates I've seen yet.

However, I think that adding a character to the recipe is a bit too much. Someone above said it perfectly. The DS icon appears to be the 'misfit' collection, picking up features that don't really belong anywhere else.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I'm with Copperpot. This update is totally badass. I never expected Sakurai and Company to pull this one out. I guess they're striving to make this new Smash Bros. a true next gen experience and stuffing it to the hilt with all sorts of goodies.

Who would've thought that the Wii could be such an able piece of hardware?

Smooth Criminal
 

Metaknight X

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I agree that this update is amazing. A lot of people seemed to want this, but I never dreamed Sakurai was actually gonna give it to us. Is there anything this game won't include?!?

Also, this stage builder is going to be perfect for competitive players and 'casual' players alike. The competitive players can make their own competitive stage if they feel the in-game ones are too hectic, random or unfair, and the casuals can create their own stage for fun. In short, everyone wins.

As for Miis, while at one time I was expecting them to be in as PCs, I'm now not so sure thanks to their appearance as avatars for online mode. But you never know...
 
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