Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Wiseguy]

Where you molested as a child by a man in a bull costume?

Leave me out of your fantasies Numa.

 

[Numa Dude]

Leave me out of your fantasies Numa.

My fantasies do not involve men in bull costumes. They involve anime and video game characters.

 

[Arteen]

Unlike Nook, there is more than one AC Villager. Therefore, they can be in the stage background and there can still be one as a PC.

But why put them in the background to begin with? You can have Villagers fighting in the foreground just as easily as you can remove Nook from the background if he's fighting in the foreground. Besides icon != definite character. I feel that Sakurai may have thought that having an AC character as a fighter just wouldn't appropriately represent the nature of the game, hence AC still gets a stage, ATs, and items, but every possible rep character is in the background of the stage.

Being a real preson adds to Kawashima's WTF status, is doesn't himder him. I doubt that the real life dude cares that he can be zaped by Pikachu or punched by Mario in a game, in fact he might be honoured. Not that it matters, Nintendo owns the rights to the character.

I don't buy the "WTF character" argument. Could you explain how it's relevant to predicting a character? Bullet Bill would be pretty WTF. Thwomp would be pretty WTF. Angry Sun would be pretty WTF. Like Like would be pretty WTF. ROB would be pretty WTF. A Nintendog would be pretty WTF. The Wii Fit balance board would be pretty WTF (I'd main it). A walking, talking DS monster would be pretty WTF. Does that make any of them a worthy, fitting addition to the playable roster? WTF status doesn't mean anything.

Why not use a DS as a touch generations icon? And if it is meant to represent the hardware, why the Wii music?

It's just music. There's non-Sunshine music on Isle Delfino, too. There just happens to be a lot of Mario music that would fit the stage, even if the music is not from Sunshine. The music doesn't absolutely have to be from the game it represents. I really don't see a problem with non-DS music on the Pictochat stage. All stages need multiple music tracks, right? I'm not sure if Pictochat even has background music to begin with (never used it), so it would have to take music from another source. The Wii Menu and Brain Age music tracks fit with the utility aspect of the Pictochat stage, so the SSBB team probably thought the music would be fitting, even if they aren't from the DS or Pictochat utility specifically. It's just another sacrifice of canon and consistency for gameplay and art direction; it's not some clue that the DS logo stands for anything other than the DS.

Sakurai said over 2 years ago that we MIGHT see 2-3 additional 3rd party characters. Until he says form certain, the exact number is still unknown.

*1-2 additional
I also think that 4 is pushing it. This is a Nintendo All-Stars game with guest characters, so guest characters shouldn't overshadow the Nintendo roster. I don't expect the development team to sacrifice too much Nintendo content for third-party content.

 

[Elysium]

My fantasies do not involve men in bull costumes. They involve anime and video game characters.

Oh thank jebus, I thought that was only me!

.......
.......
.......

ummm J.....K....

 

[Wiseguy]

But why put them in the background to begin with? You can have Villagers fighting in the foreground just as easily as you can remove Nook from the background if he's fighting in the foreground. Besides icon != definite character. I feel that Sakurai may have thought that having an AC character as a fighter just wouldn't appropriately represent the nature of the game, hence AC still gets a stage, ATs, and items, but every possible rep character is in the background of the stage.

Why not put a bunch of AC huamns in the background?

Anyway, a better question would be: why don't any of the villagers have the trademark viking helemt? It could be that this is being reserved for playable villager.

I don't buy the "WTF character" argument. Could you explain how it's relevant to predicting a character? Bullet Bill would be pretty WTF. Thwomp would be pretty WTF. Angry Sun would be pretty WTF. Like Like would be pretty WTF. ROB would be pretty WTF. A Nintendog would be pretty WTF. The Wii Fit balance board would be pretty WTF (I'd main it). A walking, talking DS monster would be pretty WTF. Does that make any of them a worthy, fitting addition to the playable roster? WTF status doesn't mean anything.

In and of itself. the WTF argument means nothing. But when the character is also a gaming icon like Mr. G&W, Solid Snake or Kawahima it adds a ton of awesome to the playable roster.

It's just music. There's non-Sunshine music on Isle Delfino, too. There just happens to be a lot of Mario music that would fit the stage, even if the music is not from Sunshine. The music doesn't absolutely have to be from the game it represents. I really don't see a problem with non-DS music on the Pictochat stage. All stages need multiple music tracks, right? I'm not sure if Pictochat even has background music to begin with (never used it), so it would have to take music from another source. The Wii Menu and Brain Age music tracks fit with the utility aspect of the Pictochat stage, so the SSBB team probably thought the music would be fitting, even if they aren't from the DS or Pictochat utility specifically. It's just another sacrifice of canon and consistency for gameplay and art direction; it's not some clue that the DS logo stands for anything other than the DS.

As far as we know, all the stages have music solely from their series of origin. It's entirely possible that this means that Pictochat, Brainage and the Mii channel have been lumped together under the pseudo-series of casual games.

*1-2 additional
I also think that 4 is pushing it. This is a Nintendo All-Stars game with guest characters, so guest characters shouldn't overshadow the Nintendo roster. I don't expect the development team to sacrifice too much Nintendo content for third-party content.

My mistake: He said MAYBE 1-2.

And I don't think four characters is unreasonable.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

But I can't stand Black Shadow. He's the suckiest, lamest villian in the history of the universe. I can't fathom how he could make the cut while the very awesome Saumerai Goroh was given the trophy treatment. But I do agree that if a second Mother character were to be added, Claus is the prime candidate.

That site is pretty rad to. Seeing Black Knight on a Japanese fan sire makes me regret removing him from my list...



It's true. It's the post count that makes the man. (Joking )

Well if you cant stand black shadow then just put claus on , and the site well i hope you enjoy using it i really like this thread and think you did a well job at it .

 

[raphtmarqui]

But I can't stand Black Shadow. He's the suckiest, lamest villian in the history of the universe.

I 100% agree with this statement.

Since the actual TG sybol is the the words "Touch Generations" (not very subtle) they clearly went with a DS symbol instead.

Uhh...isn't the Touch Generations symbol a G with a stylus pointing to it? And subtlety didn't stop DK from being the donkey kong series symbol.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

The japanese Touch Genearations Logo is a hell of a lot more doable, and you'd expect him to use it, yet, he didn't. That symbol stands for DS and DS only.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well if you cant stand black shadow then just put claus on , and the site well i hope you enjoy using it i really like this thread and think you did a well job at it .

Thanks. I'll give Claus some thought. At the very least, I could do up a runnersup profile or something.

Uhh...isn't the Touch Generations symbol a G with a stylus pointing to it? A subtlety didn't stop DK from being the donkey kong series symbol.

Well, I was thinking that the text below the G was also part of the symbol, but perhaps not...

The japanese Touch Genearations Logo is a hell of a lot more doable, and you'd expect him to use it, yet, he didn't. That symbol stands for DS and DS only.

If it stood for the DS only, why the Mii Channel music? I think it's becuase the symbol stands for casual games in general, though whetehr or not "Touch Generations" is best thing to call them might be open to debate.

 

[Copperpot]

Well, the fact still remains that Dr. Kawashima wouldn't be accreditted as a Touch Generations representative. He's only found in the Brain Age games. If he played a role in all touch games, I could understand, but he stands for Brain Age. No more. No less.

 

[Arteen]

Why not put a bunch of AC huamns in the background?

Having Villagers with upgraded character designs fighting in the foreground and Villagers with older character designs in the background wouldn't be æsthetically pleasing. All playable characters have increased detail.

Anyway, a better question would be: why don't any of the villagers have the trademark viking helemt? It could be that this is being reserved for playable villager.

Or it could be because hats are optional in the DS version, if I recall correctly.

In and of itself. the WTF argument means nothing. But when the character is also a gaming icon like Mr. G&W, Solid Snake or Kawahima it adds a ton of awesome to the playable roster.

Did G&W have to be bizarre to get a spot on the roster? No, he was very important regardless fits as a character in an action game. Solid Snake also isn't bizarre in-and-of-himself; he's just an unexpected choice for a third-party character, but he still fits as a character in an action game. Now Kawashima on the other hand doesn't fit. He already fails the first rule of inclusion, that being he didn't originate from a video game. He's not even a character; he is a real person. Would Sakurai really include him as anything other than a bad joke?

As far as we know, all the stages have music solely from their series of origin. It's entirely possible that this means that Pictochat, Brainage and the Mii channel have been lumped together under the pseudo-series of casual games.

Like I said, all stages have multiple music tracks, right? Pictochat does not have any background music, and neither does the DS menu (unless you want an entire song based on the "bu-duh bu-dah" startup sound effect). Therefore, the SSBB team will have to get music from another source, so hy not Wii menu music or Brain Age music? It's menu music that fits the feel of the Pictochat stage. Why not put it in? It's not like they have a choice anyway, since the DS doesn't have any music of its own. Because of that, having music that doesn't originate from the DS hardware realm itself means nothing. Besides, they'd use the Touch! Generations icon instead of the DS icon if they wanted Pictochat to fall under more than the just the DS.

And I don't think four characters is unreasonable.

Considering you've had everywhere from 1 to 6 third-party reps on your list, I'm not surprised.

 

[raphtmarqui]

He already fails the first rule of inclusion, that being he didn't originate from a video game.

I didn't even think of that. That's a good point. Dr. Kawashima can't be a character in Brawl the same way Spiderman, Naruto, or any other non-videogame originating character can't be.

 

[Andy4Brawl_911]

BIG IMPROVEMENTS! First No K. Rool(DK) or Clause (MOTHER3.) I heard Takamura is an AT. Nor did you put Piko or Dark Shadow from F-Zero, and Dr. Lobe before Dr. Kawashima. No Isaac (I hate any way), Andy (Advance Wars, the best by far!! Andy FTW), Tom Nook, Ashley (Wario), Egg Plant Wixard (Kid Icarus) or Yeti (Ice Climbers.) The fact that Nintendo want a robotic character like Ray (custom robo) or Chibi Robo (Chibi-Robo.) No mention of Elite Beat Agents or Oundon. Also you forgot to major third party characters: Bomber Man or Raymon. A yoshi character Kamek or Birdo or even that Raven

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

If it stood for the DS only, why the Mii Channel music? I think it's becuase the symbol stands for casual games in general, though whetehr or not "Touch Generations" is best thing to call them might be open to debate.

Because Pictochat and the DS menus have no music, that's why. They had to take it from SOMEWHERE.

I might PM you a Claus profile... I just need a good picture.

EDIT: I did it... I was just too lazy to look for a picture so I went and took a snapshot of the final battle against Claus.

 

[OysterMeister]

1) Yes, if they wanted Marth to return, they could nerf him no problem. But it's the if that's still up in the air.

I'm just saying the fact that Marth should be nerfed and the possibility that he might not return are unrelated. You sometimes mention Marth's overpowered condition in Melee as a reason for why Marth shouldn't return or why the developers wouldn't want him to bring Marth back (or why they'd want to replace him with a heavy character). I just want you to admit that this isn't a valid point. Performance in Melee is not a factor to consider for the brawl roster.

2) Neither Pit, nor Meta nor even Ike make Marth irrelivant in and of themselves. By they all have elements that are similar to Marth's. And if Takamaru makes the cut as well, I don't see Marth's moveset as terribly vital.

Then, to fill the niche of Marth-eaque swordfighter, they went with Takamaru.

So far as Takamaru goes, I'd say the possibility that a new character would make a veteran redundant is a bigger argument against the newcomer than the veteran. I'm not saying Takamaru won't make it in, but if he's really going to be as close to Marth as you seem to be implying, then it seems like it would be far easier to just bring back Marth and spend all that saved development time on something more worthwhile, like Olimar.

3) I think the thought process was more that they first decided that they first decided that Ike made Marth irrelivant when the roser was being decided, so they included Ike with Marth's moveset. Then, as they were tweaking all the characters, they drastically changed Ike's moves and stats to fill a niche within the roster (a strong, heavy sword fighter). Then, to fill the niche of Marth-eaque swordfighter, they went with Takamaru.

Again (ha!) I think the changes to the individual moves were made after Marth's fate was decided to suit Ike better. Marth COULD certainly return, and I'll be the first to admit that he stands a good (even great) chance of returning. But my scenario isn't out of the question either.

So... Ike was a Marth replacement at first, but then they changed all his moves to fit Ike as a character and then changed all his stats so that he'd be a heavy character instead of a fast one? And that all this changed Ike so much that they'd then have to bring in ANOTHER new character (Takamaru) to replace Marth? Then you admit that, as he is now, Ike isn't filling Marth's niche?

Cool, because that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Ike isn't a Marth replacement, and thus his moveset isn't part of the argument for Marth's inclusion or exclusion from Brawl.
We differ in that you believe that way back in the development time line Ike was originally intended to replace Marth, but it seems we both agree that Ike isn't a Marth replacement NOW, which is my point.
Ike isn't a replacement for Marth, and thus isn't really part of the will-he-won't-he-return argument. So it just comes down to whether or not Marth has enough going for him as a character to warrent his return. I'm sure you already know my thoughts on that.

10. Captain olimar is a stupid Honky.

In all due respect: You shut your filthy mouth. You shut it and you never open it again.

 

[tirkaro]

I heard Takamura is an AT.

*assuming you meant takamaru*
.....no he's not 0_o

 

[MasterMushroom]

BIG IMPROVEMENTS! First No K. Rool(DK) or Clause (MOTHER3.) I heard Takamura is an AT.

Until officially confirmed, Go tell that person who told you that to jump a cliff and burn themselves. K? thx.

 

[Andy4Brawl_911]

Until officially confirmed, Go tell that person who told you that to jump a cliff and burn themselves. K? thx.

Umm no one did, i just thought i heard it somewhere

 

[Sasha]

Andy..... FAIL.

BIG IMPROVEMENTS! First No K. Rool(DK) or Clause (MOTHER3.)

The only semi-intelligent remark in your whole post.

I heard Takamura is an AT.

Source?

Nor did you put Piko or Dark Shadow from F-Zero, and Dr. Lobe before Dr. Kawashima.

I firmly believe that the only F-Zero character other than Capt. Falcon who had a chance was Goroh (disconfirmed). Only the Captain is getting in. Black Shadow sucks anyway.

No Isaac (I hate any way), Andy (Advance Wars, the best by far!! Andy FTW), Tom Nook, Ashley (Wario), Egg Plant Wixard (Kid Icarus) or Yeti (Ice Climbers.)

Okay I lied. Isaac is semi-intelligent. The rest.... nope. Eggplant? Yeti? Wtf? No one else is coming from Kid Icarus or Ice Climbers. Way too small and unknown series to merit more than 1 character apiece. Tom Nook was already disconfirmed (background of smashville). Ashley might theoretically have a chance, but just because her music from WARIO's game is in Brawl doesn't mean that she will come anywhere near the Brawl roster.

The fact that Nintendo want a robotic character like Ray (custom robo) or Chibi Robo (Chibi-Robo.)

Huh? Source?

No mention of Elite Beat Agents or Oundon.

Who?

Also you forgot to major third party characters: Bomber Man or Raymon.

Read the runners-up threads.

A yoshi character Kamek or Birdo or even that Raven

No.

 

[MarthTrinity]

Well I like the list...except for not having Marth on it cause it's "against your religion." Besides that good job.

 

[Devastlian]

Ya, I think they might just put like-series and like-genre songs for each stage. For example, what music would a Game & Watch stage use? The Game & Watch games don't have any music (even though the Game Boy compilations did...) so they wrote an original song for Flat Zone that was kinda techno-y and had some Game & Watch sounds mixed in. That's probably what Pictochat (the song) is; an original song with the DS bells and digital sounds mixed in.

They probably just put menu music and games that fit the graphical style for Pictochat. A Game & Watch stage would probably have Flat Zone, Game & Watch Gallery music, and maybe old Nintendo arcade game music etc. An Ice Climber stage would be another example of a lack of music; they could probably slip in music from other obscure NES games like they did with Balloon Fight. A Nazo no Murasamejou stage would suffer the same fate and probably get obscure Japan-only music. F-Zero (and Mario Circuit, though that'll probably get Mario spinoff music) could get music from obscure driving and racing games.

Anyway, you see where I'm with this. Not all series have enough (or any) music to draw from so they could have some extra songs to play on those stages and there are probably songs they want to include that aren't part of the symbol represented series.

Also, 4/25+ doesn't seem like it'd overshadow much of anything. That's like saying the sword characters overshadow everyone else, lol.

And you can never have enough unique sword characters. :x

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

for the sake
ridley 4 brawl

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I simply disagree with Micaiah. She's not a lord and even though she's a plot centric character, she still cannot compare to the importance of the Lord of the most popular game in the series, Sigurd. It doesn't matter if she's recent or not, Ike's plenty recent enough. Sakurai killed off the only noteworthy Female Lord's character appearance from being possible.

Hate to revive a dead argument but I just found this out.

Sigurd's popularity? Bull****.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostResult3.html

This is an old poll before Melee came out. Marth won by a landslide, and Sigurd only got two votes. While this is nowhere near recent (and someone else claimed Sigurd's popularity boosted), I've got yet to see anything claim the contrary. Marth will be returning over Sigurd.

While Lyn is a sad loss, you've got a problem--Lyn was only popular IN AMERICA. She doesn't share the Japanese popularity that Marth has, and Japan centric characters need marketability (Like Lucas), which I don't see with Sigurd. The general rule is IN JAPAN >>>>> IN AMERICA, which is why you also won't see anything from the Prime series (lol No Rundas, No Dark Samus, Final Destination). The only exception to this rule is Sonic.

I'm well aware of Micaiah's underdog status (only one game, out prioritized by Black Knight and Marth), but I still can't help but root for her (and to add to my insanity, I made a bet, be sure to mock my loss).

 

[Legolastom]

She is by no means the underdog... she is the leftover scraps or lyn at best.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

she is just boring the crap out of me.....

 

[Kirby knight]

I'm well aware of Micaiah's underdog status (only one game, out prioritized by Black Knight and Marth), but I still can't help but root for her (and to add to my insanity, I made a bet, be sure to mock my loss).

If the Black Knight get's in as a playable character before any lord(Main character) It'd frankly be an insult to the entire Fire Emblem franchise. It seems as if people are going "villain-crazy" every series has to have a villain no matter how important/unimportant they might be...I would think that people would get over this "villain fever", but I guess not.

The Black Knight will be a personal boss for Ike at best. He's not important, a majority of his fans are judging him purely of superfical aspects; which don't mean anything. Compare the Black Knight's importance to other main Villans/antagonists such as Bowser, K. Rool and King Dedede and you'd find that he comes up short..

As of right now Micaiah's main competion are Marth and Sigurd. One of which could be an alt costume of Ike's, if that is true that would only leave Marth and considering since it's introduction in Melee Fire Emblem should warrant at least 3 spots.

Marth, Ike and Micaiah would be the best line up of Fire Emblem characters (imo) Though the most common list of characters is Marth, Ike, and Sigurd.

-Knight

 

[Legolastom]

So your saying that EVERY lord should get in before any villain? So Hero of time, Hero of Winds, first Link, OoS /OoA Link, Minish cap Link, TP Link, Lttp Link and all the Zelda's should get in before G-Dorf?

But seriously think about it, with a franchise like FE not all Lords should get in before another character... and what makes Micaiah more worthy than the other lords?

 

[raphtmarqui]

Compare the Black Knight's importance to other main Villans/antagonists such as Bowser, K. Rool and King Dedede and you'd find that he comes up short..

Thats because your comparing Black Knight with the wrong people. If anything BK should be compared to Metaknight, and BK has about the same importance as Metaknight more or less.

 

[Pieman0920]

Micaiah is different from other lords. If Marth gets in, we have most of the arch-types for lords covered. Her game is also what finally turned around the FE sales decline. =/

EDIT: Black Knight's a lot lower than Metaknight on the importance scale in his own series. >_>

 

[Legolastom]

Micaiah is different from other lords. If Marth gets in, we have most of the arch-types for lords covered. Her game is also what finally turned around the FE sales decline. =/

EDIT: Black Knight's a lot lower than Metaknight on the importance scale in his own series. >_>

If anything he is more important than Meta Knight respectively.

 

[Kirby knight]

So your saying that EVERY lord should get in before any villain? So Hero of time, Hero of Winds, first Link, OoS /OoA Link, Minish cap Link, TP Link, Lttp Link and all the Zelda's should get in before G-Dorf?

But seriously think about it, with a franchise like FE not all Lords should get in before another character... and what makes Micaiah more worthy than the other lords?

You know as well as I do that Ganondorf is the most promient villain in the Zelda series. Don't be stupid I'm sure your aware of that, he has more merit to his inclusion than the Black Knight, unless of course your saying Ganondorf is of equal importance to the Black Knight (lol).

Why shouldn't main characters get in before A lackluster villian that's not even of central importance in both games he starred in? Ganondorf is almost ALWAYS the most important antagonist in the Zelda series.

Thats because your comparing Black Knight with the wrong people. If anything BK should be compared to Metaknight, and BK has about the same importance as Metaknight more or less.

Not really, I can't really compare him to Metaknight because the Black Knight sure as hell is not one of the 3 most promient Fire Emblem characters. I wouldn't be against him if he actually had merit to his inclusion, why should a villain who's not even of central importance get in before those who are actually are of central importantance? It really doesn't make sense in my eyes. Of course if someone wants to open my eyes to actually providing a good explanation as to why the Black Knight should get in over other lords (Sigurd, Marth, Miaciah and even Roy) who are of central importance to their games.

-Knight

 

[Pieman0920]

If anything he is more important than Meta Knight respectively.

Huh? No, not at all. It's true that some roles that Metaknight has played are indeed on par with BK, but other than that, MK's got a heck of a lot more importance. Not only does he appear in more than two games, but in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror (And Meta Knight's revenge) he has a huge story role. That's combined with the lesser roles he's had (including multiple times being playable) and you've got someone with a much larger resume than BK. =/

 

[Kirby knight]

Originally Posted by Legolastom

If anything he is more important than Meta Knight respectively.

Please give me that list that says the Black Knight is one of the 3 most important characters in the Fire Emblem series.

-Knight

 

[Ginger9001]

Even though I have never played the new Fire Emblem game that has Black Knight in it, I can say without a doubt that he isn't any more important than other well-known villians like Ganondorf and Meta Knight. 'Nuff said. Though, I will admit Black Knight looks friggin' sweet and I wouldn't mind him being in the game. :D

 

[raphtmarqui]

Huh? No, not at all. It's true that some roles that Metaknight has played are indeed on par with BK, but other than that, MK's got a heck of a lot more importance. Not only does he appear in more than two games, but in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror (And Meta Knight's revenge) he has a huge story role. That's combined with the lesser roles he's had (including multiple times being playable) and you've got someone with a much larger resume than BK. =/

Please give me that list that says the Black Knight is one of the 3 most important characters in the Fire Emblem series.

Bottom line is that both Metaknight and BK are just rival characters in the games they're in and the story could pretty much go on with out them. It's not like their final bosses or something.

 

[Mallhew]

Wiseguy, baddd prediction on the Brain Age guy.

 

[Shadowbolt]

Wiseguy, baddd prediction on the Brain Age guy.

Wordity word word.

 

[Kirby knight]

Bottom line is that both Metaknight and BK are just rival characters in the games they're in and the story could pretty much go on with out them. It's not like their final bosses or something.

Ok, tell me how on earth "Revenge of Metaknight" could have happend without Metaknight. He was the final boss. He's more important than the Black Knight, I really hope your not putting them on the same importance level, because they are not.

-Knight

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

who is saying metaknight is worse than blacknight?
metaknight=awsome
BK=awsome but Mk is much better in awsome...
GOD TIER!!!!

 

[Ginger9001]

Isn't Black Knight only in one game? :/