Predict where our favorite hedgehog will end up on the bottom tier!

[Digital Angel]

I'm thinking something like this


Yoshi
Sonic
DK
Bowser

 

[razzberryOG]

is sonic really that bad....
i didnt get brawl yet but i was thinkin of using him as my main......he cant really be as bad as everyone says right?

 

[new2nbdy]

you may want to rethink. Have you heard of Lucky? He is one o the best sonic users right now, and isvery good.

That, and speed normally makes someone near the top of a tier list.

 

[Mushroomring]

Lucky needs to make some more vids

 

[Napilopez]

I seriouly doubt that once the metagame is reached Sonic will be botom tier, but if he does end up there I'd guess he's at the top of the bottom lol.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Erm... Sonic isn't going to be bottom, seriously. People need to stop making speculations about that based on his all of 3 kill moves. Yoshi is bottom material for sure currently, and that's it. Everyone else is up in the air. STFU until you at least play the game.

 

[Digital Angel]

Erm... Sonic isn't going to be bottom, seriously. People need to stop making speculations about that based on his all of 3 kill moves. Yoshi is bottom material for sure currently, and that's it. Everyone else is up in the air. STFU until you at least play the game.

I HAVE played the game and this topic is slightly satirical in nature because Sonic hasn't been as good as expected.

 

[Gindler]

I'm thinking something like this


Yoshi
Sonic
DK
Bowser

Yoshi on the bottom tier? are you kidding me!? even sonic has more of a right to be there than yoshi he's so good...this is of course coming from a yoshi main.

 

[Gindler]

Erm... Sonic isn't going to be bottom, seriously. People need to stop making speculations about that based on his all of 3 kill moves. Yoshi is bottom material for sure currently, and that's it. Everyone else is up in the air. STFU until you at least play the game.

Geez, you too? why does everyone bash yoshi constantly? he has the best air arsenal of any character and his smashes hurt like crap.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Can't jump out of his shield, limited kill options, lost half his invincibility frames on his DJ, can no longer DJC, poor range, crappy grabs... Why doesn't he belong on the bottom tier again?

Also, Boozer isn't going to be there, either.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Geez, you too? why does everyone bash yoshi constantly? he has the best air arsenal of any character and his smashes hurt like crap.

Why do you think he has the best aerial game? Have you never played against Puff, Metaknight, or Kirby? Marth? Anyone?

His smashes do NOT hurt in this game, at all. Dsmash doesn't kill a non-di'ing JIGGLYPUFF from the middle of FD until after 160%. Fsmash kills at over 100% with the same circumstances, and Usmash at 110%. He has no killing aerials, aside from uair, which is also his combo move, despite having horrible lag in the air after, making it really hard to follow up.

Combine that with his horrible recovery, and all the things I mentioned in the previous post, and you have a dead dinosaur.

 

[Digital Angel]

IoZ is right.

Yoshi is kind of like Sonic, they are both really bad, but in different ways

 

[Gindler]

Why do you think he has the best aerial game? Have you never played against Puff, Metaknight, or Kirby? Marth? Anyone?

His smashes do NOT hurt in this game, at all. Dsmash doesn't kill a non-di'ing JIGGLYPUFF from the middle of FD until after 160%. Fsmash kills at over 100% with the same circumstances, and Usmash at 110%. He has no killing aerials, aside from uair, which is also his combo move, despite having horrible lag in the air after, making it really hard to follow up.

Combine that with his horrible recovery, and all the things I mentioned in the previous post, and you have a dead dinosaur.

Hmmm, 160 you say? that is awfully nerfed, back in the day it was 90ish. then again, use smashes while edgeguarding then. He is tough though, 200%+ easy and he'll still keep comin' back even with no third jump.

maybe i'm just a die-hard fan.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think Jiggly's the lightest anymore... but, I digress.

Obviously the metagame hasn't quite fleshed out yet, but I think that sonic's innability to kill pretty much condemns him to the bottom teir (being the bottom 1/3 of the characters), but his apparent ability to counter slow & heavies makes me think he'll be in the upper range of that teir.

but it's way to early to speculate about anything near so specific... though I do see DK, Bowser, Yoshi and Captain Falcon joining him in the bottom 1/3 of the characters.

as for yoshi, the new double jump mechanics for he and ness are just that: new. who's to say how they will be developed... but other than gaining a tripple jump, he looks, on the whole, worse than he was in melee if anything

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Clever troll is clever. DA, Sonic isn't terrible, stop clinging to that. One of the reasons I picked up Sonic was to help flesh out his game quicker, so that rumours wouldn't circulate about him being the worst, and people would start character johning (ala Gojira for Bowser). He's hard to use, and only has 3 reliable KO moves. Not terrible. He can gimp, combo, and tech-chase fairly well, especially for Brawl.

Gindler, I know your pain. I used Yoshi for a while in SSBM because of Fumi, and we had an exceptional Yoshi as well. He's been hit with the nerf bat, and hard. I don't know why Sakurai insists on making him worse with each game, but he does. His third jump is nice, but eh, not enough. He doesn't really live to high percents anymore, either.

Copied from t!mmy's Kirby guide, ignore the percents.

Very Heavy (18%)
Bowser (Koopa)
Donkey Kong
Dedede

Heavy (17%)
Samus
Charizard
Ganondorf
Snake

Medium-Heavy (16%)
Yoshi
Wario
Ike
Link
R.O.B.
Captain Falcon
Wolf

Medium (15%)
Mario
Lucario
Luigi
Ivysaur
Sonic

Medium-Light (14%)
Ice Climber
Pit
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Peach
Toon Link
Ness

Light-Weight (13%)
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Marth

Very Light-Weight (12%)
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Pikachu
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Squirtle

Feather-Weight (11% or less)
(11%) Mr. Game & Watch
( 9% ) Jigglypuff (Purin)

Jiggs is still the lightest.

I think that the lack of ability to kill early is going to keep him from rising up too high. However, he can gimp rather well, so I don't know about bottom tier. Plus, it's pretty hard to gimp Sonic, given the amazing invincibilty frames on his up+b.

One thing people aren't taking into account for tiers is counter-picking. Take someone to a low-ceiling stage, and watch Sonic shine. Corneria is amazing for the blue *******, due to it's immense size but tiny blast-zones. Check out the first stock in this match to see what I'm talking about:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oDmHDTvcasg

Also, Sonic can kill at 130%+ on the Halberd. Just a heads up. Since a lot of the stages we play on for "random neutral" have high ceilings, it doesn't show how well he can KO upwards. Just finished testing on Corneria, and Sonic can KO mid-weight characters with no DI as low as 13% from where I KO'ed Marth. Crazy.

 

[BentoBox]

Erm... Sonic isn't going to be bottom, seriously. People need to stop making speculations about that based on his all of 3 kill moves. Yoshi is bottom material for sure currently, and that's it. Everyone else is up in the air. STFU until you at least play the game.

You aren't any more right than anyone else who's speculating in this thread, or the hundreds of people claiming in every single character sub-forum that they'll end up high tier.

 

[shrinkray21]

Brawl is setting up as a different game than melee...the fact that sonic has a hard time killing now doesn't mean he's going to fit into the bottom tier...be patient...videos have surfaced showing sonic do very well for a certain parts of matched...that will flesh out in time.

There just aren't that many good sonic mains right now...just be patient.

 

[Lyoncet]

Edit: said much better in another thread.

Anyways,

You aren't any more right than anyone else who's speculating in this thread, or the hundreds of people claiming in every single character sub-forum that they'll end up high tier.

Claiming that Zeal is "no different" from the "hundreds of people in every single character sub-forum" clamoring about their character is just ridiculous. Mainly because most of them haven't played the game, and Zeal has. His opinions are based upon his own experience rather than what other people have demonstrated.

Yeah, there are tons of people yacking about how great their "future main" is going to be with no knowledge whatsoever on the subject, but Zeal isn't one of them.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

You aren't any more right than anyone else who's speculating in this thread, or the hundreds of people claiming in every single character sub-forum that they'll end up high tier.

Really? Prove me wrong.

 

[BentoBox]

Right back at ya.

The game has been out for a month.

Any tier discussion at this point is premature and unfounded in most cases. Tier lists didn't come to be made by listing characters' specific traits and mindless speculation about how pwnage they are (''look at this guy handle sonic like a pro, def undderrated! high tier fosho!''). Fact: it doesn't matter if you've played the game because your opinion cannot be taken as law until actual large scale tournaments are organized in which every character should be well represented and thus allow us to analyze every matchup. Who are Sonic's worst match-ups? Who easily gimps his recovery? Who does he have the easiest time beating? Counters? Does he have an advantage in specific types of stages?

How well does he fare against:

Bowser:
Captain Falcon:
Diddy Kong:
Donkey Kong:
Falco:
Fox:
Game & Watch:
Ganondorf :
Ice Climbers:
Ike :
Jigglypuff :
King Dedede:
Kirby :
Link :
Lucario :
Lucas :
Luigi :
Mario:
Marth:
Meta Knight:
Ness:
Peach:
Pikachu:
Pikmin & Olimar:
Pit :
Pokémon Trainer:
R.O.B. :
Samus:
Sheik :
Snake :
Toon Link :
Wario :
Wolf :
Yoshi :
Zelda :
Zero Suit Samus:
?
And who in this list deserves a lower placement in the tier list? And why? And where is the line drawn between every tier?

Fact: You cannot simply state that Sonic won't be bottom tier because he seems good or because you've had unsimilar experiences. Remember how Roy used to be top tier? Aside from Yoshi (lol), there aren't many characters that are ****ty per-say, thus why there are people speculating about every single character's standing in the high tier bracket. Sonic is playable, that we know, but even if you have the game, you do not have more authority than anyone about his placing until you actually evaluate and analyze the bigger picture. Many people say that the cast in general is more balanced which would imply that even if Sonic ended up being at the very bottom, he could still prove to be a viable character in tournaments, he'd simply be a lot more limited than the rest of the cast. There is nothing personal about tier listings.

You aren't any more right than anyone else who's speculating in this thread, or the hundreds of people claiming in every single character sub-forum that they'll end up high tier.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wow.. I mean I'll believe the weight list... but charizard seems so much lighter than that says he is. I thought metaknight was lighter than puff... but I guess not. and zelda seemed hevier than sheik... but again.. I'll believe your list.

anyway... yeah... game hasn't been out long enough to solidify place in teir list... but as of now, I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that he's in the bottom 3rd right?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Wtf, I did NOT expect intelligent debate. You win this round, Bento. Seriously, I thought I was just defending Sonic against another random flame.

For the record, Sonic's recovery is almost ungimpable. He's invincible up to the point where he can attack.

I've been playing him in tournaments since we got it, so it gives me a little more understanding as to what's developing early on, but, as you said, even m2k doesn't really know for sure what endgame is going to be like. Yoshi could end up being broken, for all we know (yeah right, lololol).

 

[RedrappeR]

Bento, Roy was NEVER Top or High tier. He was always mid-Low.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Roy was just popular in casual play.

I think Bento Box wins the topic with Zeal pulling second place. Too close to tell, but it's foolish to write off Sonic just yet.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

sonics gonna be awesome tier

 

[BentoBox]

Bento, Roy was NEVER Top or High tier. He was always mid-Low.

I stand corrected. I was sure that there was a point when roy was actually ranked higher than Marth until the likes of Ken arrived on the scene. Luigi used to be high too, or is my memory just failing me @_@.

I love you too Zeal!

 

[Green & Watch]

You people annoy me, a lot.

Sonic isn't being played right at all, I haven't seen anyone utilize his ability to chase people off the stage with his aerials correctly at all, except one guy in a video against a training mode dummy, and it wasn't Lucky.

Not that Lucky is bad, by any means, he himself said he has work to do, unless that was another thread with another person.

Anyway, people don't know how to use him correctly yet, and I don't want to sound too cocky here but when I get Brawl, I will introduce a way of playing sonic that hasn't been recorded on any youtube video I've seen. And believe me, I've watched almost all the videos of sonic, I'm very confident in my ability to save this character that you all claim to be 'bad'.

 

[BentoBox]

Of course you will.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Were do people get this idea that having few kill moves automatically makes a character bad? In case anyone didn't notice Marth no "safe" kill moves in melee and look where he ended up! Shiek only had the fair! Kill moves are not that important.

@Bento Box, Roy was never top tier. Heck, he was never even mid tier. He was pretty high on the low tier list, but moved down as advance techs were discovered. The first top tier was Shiek. Look how far she moved.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that is in no way a parallel situation... sonic doesn't posess a single move anything like sheik's fair in melee... and that wasn't sheik's only option by a long shot... there were also chain grabs bair and gimps galore... pretty much the same story for marth... sonic is in no way the marth/sheik of brawl... not even close.

I stand corrected. I was sure that there was a point when roy was actually ranked higher than Marth until the likes of Ken arrived on the scene. Luigi used to be high too, or is my memory just failing me @_@.

I love you too Zeal!

the teir list can be crap sometimes... it's weighted too heavily on how they fair against the spacies... I mean luigi was a lot better than he was given credit for... but just because falco and fox can shut him down...

 

[LuCKy]

you may want to rethink. Have you heard of Lucky? He is one o the best sonic users right now, and isvery good.

That, and speed normally makes someone near the top of a tier list.

lol dude........you like made my day....im soooooooo recording tomorrow with mango

Lucky needs to make some more vids

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


and holy snap @ cornieria kill good looking out man.looks like i know where im counter picking lol i really had no idea cornierias ceiling was that low

 

[LuCKy]

You people annoy me, a lot.

Sonic isn't being played right at all, I haven't seen anyone utilize his ability to chase people off the stage with his aerials correctly at all, except one guy in a video against a training mode dummy, and it wasn't Lucky.

Not that Lucky is bad, by any means, he himself said he has work to do, unless that was another thread with another person.

lol you should see my sonic now

 

[RedrappeR]

lol you should see my sonic now

What happened to the HUGE impressions thread you were gonna make?

Do not disappoint me... or face the consequences.

*OMINOUS GLARE...*

 

[LuCKy]

What happened to the HUGE impressions thread you were gonna make?

Do not disappoint me... or face the consequences.

*OMINOUS GLARE...*

well im not big on the whole percents thing lol i wouldnt want to put percents n stuff like that.........the best i could do is give numerous ways to use each of his moves and different combos and stuff but i plan to play as much brawl as possible this week and maybe do one by next week

and instead of being a impression on his teir placement like i was gonna do.Its gonna be something more like a guide

 

[RedrappeR]

well im not big on the whole percents thing lol i wouldnt want to put percents n stuff like that.........the best i could do is give numerous ways to use each of his moves and different combos and stuff but i plan to play as much brawl as possible this week and maybe do one by next week

and instead of being a impression on his teir placement like i was gonna do.Its gonna be something more like a guide

Kinda what I was hoping for.

 

[Reynard]

I've not played Brawl, but Sonic does seem... substandard from all the things I've heard about him. No priority, very few killing moves, no projectiles, no disjointed hitboxes, not much range, two identical B moves. His supreme ground speed is nice, and dropping springs on people trying to recover from below looks fun, but beyond that I can't seem to find much to tout about the 'hog. That's not to say he can't be played well, but I can see playing a good Sonic being a much bigger challenge than most other characters.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I stand corrected. I was sure that there was a point when roy was actually ranked higher than Marth until the likes of Ken arrived on the scene. Luigi used to be high too, or is my memory just failing me @_@.

I love you too Zeal!

Roy was top early on, and Marth was mid. It was a REALLY long time ago. You remember right.

Luigi should be high tier in Melee, I'm not joking.

You people annoy me, a lot.

Sonic isn't being played right at all, I haven't seen anyone utilize his ability to chase people off the stage with his aerials correctly at all, except one guy in a video against a training mode dummy, and it wasn't Lucky.

Not that Lucky is bad, by any means, he himself said he has work to do, unless that was another thread with another person.

Anyway, people don't know how to use him correctly yet, and I don't want to sound too cocky here but when I get Brawl, I will introduce a way of playing sonic that hasn't been recorded on any youtube video I've seen. And believe me, I've watched almost all the videos of sonic, I'm very confident in my ability to save this character that you all claim to be 'bad'.

Yeah, I'm sure you will. Just like you saved Roy in Melee, right?

Fail.

Were do people get this idea that having few kill moves automatically makes a character bad? In case anyone didn't notice Marth no "safe" kill moves in melee and look where he ended up! Shiek only had the fair! Kill moves are not that important.

@Bento Box, Roy was never top tier. Heck, he was never even mid tier. He was pretty high on the low tier list, but moved down as advance techs were discovered. The first top tier was Shiek. Look how far she moved.

Sonic Wave, Sheik and Marth have a lot of kill options, and they're all relatively easy. I don't know why you say they don't.

Sheik has fair, bair, uair, nair, dsmash, and (kinda) usmash. Not only that, she can combo into her best kill move (fair).

Marth is where he is because of how safe he is. He can camp behind that sword all day. Ever played a floaty character against Marth when you're over 120? >b to utilt=safest, easiest kill ever. Ever used a space animal against him? If he throws you off the edge, you're dead. If he grabs you period, you're going to get hurt pretty bad.

EDIT: Lucky, get that thread up soon. It'd be nice to have your impressions to further Sonic metagame, blah blah, etc etc.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

You haven't seen Ka-Master or SDSG's Luigi.

 

[LuCKy]

You people annoy me, a lot.


Anyway, people don't know how to use him correctly yet, and I don't want to sound too cocky here but when I get Brawl, I will introduce a way of playing sonic that hasn't been recorded on any youtube video I've seen. And believe me, I've watched almost all the videos of sonic, I'm very confident in my ability to save this character that you all claim to be 'bad'.

whoa.......i didnt see that part lol uhhhhhh ok...........i guess ill be waiting to see you **** the world with sonic lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hedgedawg: You overexaggerate. ALOT.

Sonic will probably be mid tier for the record.

But I have yet to see someone abuse his tilts or his gimping abilities to the fullest.

His ground game is solid as is his tech chasing game. Plus his recovery is amazing and he is virtually ungimpable.

He has enough to be mid tier.

At the absolute best, and someone masters his speed and gimping abilities, and his speed proves to be a giant assest, then he could be the bottom of high tier IMO. But no higher then that.

To be honest though, I think he will be upper middle tier.

Seriously, guys start abusing Sonic's tilts. They are good.