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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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other than smash what's your favourite game?
Not really the place for this lol, but I haven't been captivated like Melee did with me with any other game in a long time. I'd have to guess Kingdom Hearts 3DS did a pretty good job of that though. As far as replay value goes, I think Pokemon Puzzle League does that for me. It really depends on how you ask the question to me right now since I like different games for different reasons instead of have one overall game I like second most.

Man, jab -> shine is great.

@PP or anybody else: Is there a way to improve your reactions, or at least be capable of discerning what kind of DI it is right after you land a shine? I think this would definitely improve everybody's overall punishgame because I'm usually left with the right idea about how to continue on a punish + the execution to do it, but simply fail to do it fast enough.
My reaction time in general is pretty bad, but my smash reaction time is really good. This is because I just learned a ton of situations and what could happen in all of them so I could always be prepared.

So if you want to learn how to react to shine, pick a situation, any situation. Test out DIs with a friend if possible or just experiment a bit on your own with CPU DIs to get a feel for it. Once you have that down figure out what else they could have done and what looks like. You might need videos to help get a more full picture. Then you'll be able to tell not only what COULD happen but also what is most LIKELY to happen in this metagame.

PeePee will you honor the Diddy Kong Racing MM I challenged you to like 4 years ago?
LOL dude I love that freaking game I've been watching speedruns of it lately. I'm down but only if I have extra time at a non-super major we are both at lol.
 

Askeflink

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Bones0

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I have been practicing a lot this year and gained a lot of more tournament experience living abroad since August. But I keep my spot as the gatekeeper and 7th in Norway, even if I play even with all above me in friendlies. (and I take sets)

I would really appreciate some feedback from my last set, vs a Marth I find very hard to fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxfZXuaeEmI&list=PLvxK3SMrpUgvkZjilPF0FEy081miNeYD7&index=7
- You make too many tech skill mistakes. Grind grind grind.
- Your movement is very jerky. You use a lot of rolls instead of DDing and WDs to adjust the pivot point of your DD.
- You are respecting Marth's range too much. As long as you are on the ground, you can stay just outside of his fair range with good results. Just be prepared for random fsmashes (keeping in mind he can't do them when he's DDing unless he knows how to pivot).
- Tone down the ground attacks. DA, tilts, and smash attacks are risky enough even when they are called for, but you are using them in spots where they are easily dodged/shielded/CCed into a counterattack. A good rule of thumb that has helped me is to grab instead of trying to DA grounded opponents. In all of those situations where you are overreaching for a lucky hit, you can usually just grab because they're holding shield.
- Improve your punish game. The shine at 1:40 should have led to a huge pillar combo, but you shine daired instead of daired for no real reason.
- 2:20 - You don't need to angle your shield down or FF to shield hog Marth.
- 3:05, 5:30 - Don't let Marth get back on stage for free. One of the best parts about Falco's game is trapping people in the corner, and that's one of Marth's weakest positions to fight his out of. Stay out of fair range, try to catch WD towards you OoS, and you can react to any sort of jump fairly easily.
- 4:20, 6:10, 6:50 - Take the juicy FH fair on that full DI off the shine, especially at low %s where you can't get a proper dair pillar yet.
 

trilok

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For melee what would good match ups be for falco?
falco is equal or better against all of the cast seems to be the more commonly held opinion.
IMO falco is slightly better or better against all of the cast.
the matchups where there is controversial opinions regarding better, equal, worse are Fox, Peach, Marth, Puff, and Samus in varying degrees of controversy and frequency of people that hold either side of the opinion.

again, imo, falco is better than all characters. Some matchups may feel like a disadvantage but its usually a matchup that requires falco to play differently than usual. Samus/peach/puff might feel a bit weird to play for example compared to a lot of the cast.
 
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Mystic Dragon

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falco is equal or better against all of the cast seems to be the more commonly held opinion.
IMO falco is slightly better or better against all of the cast.
the matchups where there is controversial opinions regarding better, equal, worse are Fox, Peach, Marth, Puff, and Samus in varying degrees of controversy and frequency of people that hold either side of the opinion.

again, imo, falco is better than all characters. Some matchups may feel like a disadvantage but its usually a matchup that requires falco to play differently than usual. Samus/peach/puff might feel a bit weird to play for example compared to a lot of the cast.
While playing only puff made a huge difference in my play but other than that I felt no significant difference thanks for the answer man
 

Zeppeli

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I'm not entirely sure, but Puff, ICs and Samus do seem like 'strange 50-50 matchups' for Falco to deal with. Peach too I guess. He goes even or better with the rest of the cast.
 
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Goodin

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Alright so my laser game leaves much to be desired. Ive been playing falco awhile now and I have been to a good amount of tourneys but i still do not like my laser game. I constantly reverse lasers on accident and it deters me from wanting to work on my laser game from both a mental side and technical side. It leaves my neutral game ****ty in general and im pretty free to grab for good marth's and sheik's. I feel that my poor laser game prevents me from becoming a better player. So in regards to what i said i need some help from some of the good falco's that are active here ( Bones, PPMD, etc).

1) Is there a way I can reduce the chance of my lasers reversing? I'm not sure if i'm just bad at it or my analog stick is ****ty, but my success with it varies from controller to controller.

2) What is the mind set I should be using when i'm in neutral? Right now my goal is to shoot a laser in order to get closer to someone so i can grab or pressure. I feel like this mind set is not a good one as it usually leads me to getting grabbed some way or another. Is there something about

3) What should the general spacing be when i'm preparing to approach? I commonly have punishable lasers, when I shoot too close to someone i get grabbed but other times i'm too far when i shoot and my opponent has time to re-position and avoid my approach attempt.

4) What openings or cues should i be acting on to approach? what is the significance of dash dancing between lasers.


Thank you for any help i may receive!
 

Zeppeli

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1) Honestly, just practice - Unless your controller really does have serious issues, then I'd suggest just replacing it. I've been only doing it for a bit but it doesn't seem like anything too difficult to handle.
2) You and your opponent have objectives. Investigate what objectives they are and find out ways to either accomplish YOUR objective, or deny your opponent from accomplishing his/her's.

The most obvious example is in the Falco vs Marth matchup. You want to ideally shoot safe, low lasers (can't be PS'd) and zone marth until he's at a position where his options are limited. From there, you'd attack him. Marth wants to catch you doing a bad laser or standing in the range of his grab/down-tilt. The most obvious thing that comes into mind in this matchup is being able to constantly adjust your space so that you can move in and out of his 'threatening' range. Learn how to navigate through space using dashes, hops, wavedashes, and more. Learn how to control your use of laser to achieve different objectives - Because setting up laser -> aerial isn't the only way to go. Learn how to bair and dair in retaliation to careless approaches. Learn how to attack Marth when he's trapped next to the corner.

3) This is too vague of a question, but it relates back to my previous paragraph. Discover your opponent's objectives and their 'threatening' range and manipulate your character around it.

4) Openings generally exist when you either reduce your opponent's options or have a psychological tact that can be manipulated. Are they always afraid of getting cornered and tech roll to the center? What about rolling to the center? Do they always nair oos in retaliation for a laser approach? You have to be constantly on alert to these kinds of things.

Dash dancing is for space readjustment. Please refer to my previous paragraphs to see why you need to do this. There's also feinting, creating more psychological shafts to manipulate, and other stuff. PP really puts it nicely when he subdivided M2K and Mango's playstyle back in the documentary - There are players who look to exploit the system mechanics of the game as much as possible, and those that exploit manipulating their opponents as much as possible.

One of the biggest tips I'd give to beginners (myself included) is that you don't constantly have to be doing an action or attack. Propelling yourself to better positions and waiting for your opponent's pre-emptive actions as a result of your previous ones (aka letting them hang themselves) is much better.

Falco's a marvelous character whose defense really is underrated. Make use of everything in his tool-kit to unleash utter destruction on your opponents - He's a really great bully.

--

Random, but is anybody really consistently with dair xx shine -> dair xx shine vs Marth on FD?
I swear, I'm never able to complete the second shine because my dair always ends up hitting too high. If I delay it to hitting low and then fast fall, Marth just spot dodges away (20XX hack pack). I'm definitely doing this wrong and aren't sure how to correct this. I know it requires specific DI, but even with that, I still miss it.

Video example to show what I mean:

Mango does nair xx shine -> dair xx shine, but its more or less the same thing.
 
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trilok

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Random, but is anybody really consistently with dair xx shine -> dair xx shine vs Marth on FD?
I swear, I'm never able to complete the second shine because my dair always ends up hitting too high. If I delay it to hitting low and then fast fall, Marth just spot dodges away (20XX hack pack). I'm definitely doing this wrong and aren't sure how to correct this. I know it requires specific DI, but even with that, I still miss it.


Mango does nair xx shine -> dair xx shine, but its more or less the same thing.
are you immediatly doublejumping out of short hop so you can fast fall dair earlier ? fullhops take longer.
 

OninO

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Hey guys,

Reading on from what @ Zeppeli Zeppeli said, in the Falco vs. Marth match up, what are some good combinations with laser to make Marth respect your space/abandon his space?

Say I'm dash-dancing/wave-dash dancing and lasering to interfere with marth's dash-dance, what do I do if he's walking me down and shielding + wavedash OoS when I laser? I often find it hard to bully Marth with just the laser. Any ideas?
 

Jackson

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I have all the tech skill for pillaring shields, but my mind always stops me for some reason after one shffl'd aerial to shine. How can I get myself the mentality to keep going on shields? I get it if this is kind of a weird question but i really need help.
 

Varist

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I have all the tech skill for pillaring shields, but my mind always stops me for some reason after one shffl'd aerial to shine. How can I get myself the mentality to keep going on shields? I get it if this is kind of a weird question but i really need help.
just get used to doing it more than once. i had the same problem. if you have the hackpack this becomes easy. if you don't, just do aerial shinegrab instead. it's a better habit to learn tbh
 

Jackson

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just get used to doing it more than once. i had the same problem. if you have the hackpack this becomes easy. if you don't, just do aerial shinegrab instead. it's a better habit to learn tbh
Yeah, I'll just try to consciously think about it when I play. I actually pulled off a shinegrab against my friend yesterday and felt pretty good about it.
 

Zeppeli

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are you immediatly doublejumping out of short hop so you can fast fall dair earlier ? fullhops take longer.
I've tried to alternate between them with no success. I have also opt to do waveshines forward before doing the double jump but I'm just not successful. Either I'm constantly messing up or it has something to do with the hack pack's strange DI (probably my fault).

That being said, another question for everyone: How often do you opt to do shine -> wavedash back? Most falcos only seem to waveshine forward or waveshine standing (no movement - the waveland's down downwards). The difference I see is that it makes certain combos much more extendable in certain positions while making others not as extendable ... Hm.
 

OninO

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re: Waveshine forward or back, ideally you'd have a good idea where you're going to hit i.e. on their front or back, so you waveshine the direction the shine is going to send them.
 

victinivcreate1

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Shine WD back fsmash can work on spacies from like 0-40. I do it for the quick gimp near the edge since down smash is so good.
 

trilok

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http://smashboards.com/threads/how-pre-ledgegrab-body-states-affect-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/
This has Fox's ledgedash timing for his pre ledgrab states.
How is it different for falco? Fox gets 15 frames for actionable intangibility while falco gets 14, so there should be a 1 frame different timing somewhere. Im guessing falco has to wait 1 more frame before wavelanding, but is this the case for the 3 states mentioned or just some of them? Due to how I have practiced this technique, I have mostly committed the ledgehop regrab non fastfall to muscle memory, so it may or may not explain why i suck at other situations.
 

Stalled

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Theres no advice to give you other than to actively think about it wh
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-pre-ledgegrab-body-states-affect-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/
This has Fox's ledgedash timing for his pre ledgrab states.
How is it different for falco? Fox gets 15 frames for actionable intangibility while falco gets 14, so there should be a 1 frame different timing somewhere. Im guessing falco has to wait 1 more frame before wavelanding, but is this the case for the 3 states mentioned or just some of them? Due to how I have practiced this technique, I have mostly committed the ledgehop regrab non fastfall to muscle memory, so it may or may not explain why i suck at other situations.
How you get to the ledge changes your ECB, with the non fast fall regrab being the most smallest and easiest to ledgedash with. If you grab it some other way, you might clip the stage when trying to wl and die. There was a post a couple pages ago with a link to some info about it.
 

Bones0

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Unless you are specifically trying to make your SHL timing really tricky or control where you land, you should always FF as soon as possible and alter your laser height by pressing the B button at a different time.
 
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Jackson

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Unless you are specifically trying to make your SHL timing really tricky, you should always FF as soon as possible and alter your laser height by pressing the B button at a different time.
okay. so if i want to laser after the fast fall I need to let go of down for a moment, press B, and then press down again.
 

Bones0

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okay. so if i want to laser after the fast fall I need to let go of down for a moment, press B, and then press down again.
If you're SHLing, you have to press B before FFing otherwise it won't come out in time. If you laser as soon as you jump and FF as soon as possible, you will still get the highest laser (or at least very close to it).
 
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trilok

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How you get to the ledge changes your ECB, with the non fast fall regrab being the most smallest and easiest to ledgedash with. If you grab it some other way, you might clip the stage when trying to wl and die. There was a post a couple pages ago with a link to some info about it.
I already know that as the link I mentioned gives that information on how the different states affect the timing for fox. What I asked was how falco's ledgedash frames are different than fox as he only gets 14 frames rather than 15 in an OL. What Im guessing is that you wait an additional frame before wavelanding. However, does falco wait an additional frame before wavelanding during the non fastfall ledgegrab only, or does he also have to wait an additional frame compared to fox during the firebird and waveland back preledgegrab back states as well?


Another question I have is whether falco colors have any significant impact on ECB interactions?

http://smashboards.com/threads/difference-in-colors.223965/page-2
shows how falcon has different widths (biggest is 1.2 percent bigger than smallest) for dealing with stage collision/interactions such as whether or not downsmash slips you off the side of peachs stage. Some comments on reddit/smashboards seem to say there was a side by side case where green falcon makes an up b, while the other falcon falls to their doom. I am very skeptical about that and can't seem to find it.

Is there any known case for falco where it would make a difference?
There probably isn't, but would a bigger size be better or would a smaller one be better generally?
 
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pkblaze

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Marth edgeguards falco super hard. Sweetspot the ledge with upB(from above and below), go high with upB, mix up side B shortens, etc. Basically trick him into covering the wrong option.
 

Twilight Emblem

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Whats the best option to recover against Marth because I've been struggling with this.
This is an idea feel free to build on it/remove parts of it/ don't use it lol/. Get a friend of yours to run through save state edge guard drills in the 20xx hack pack with marth for 30 min- hour. If thats too much then try to switch off where you edge guard them for 15 min and then they try to get you for 15 min


His marth tries to edge guard you
You make it back or die either way- Savestate to where you're off the ledge again

And before you do this just watch vids of high level matches of falcos getting back from marths to help give you some helpful observations to work with. If you see anything consistently working for falco in principle/or a strict technique to get back from marth in those videos, write it down and aspire to see how well it can work for you

Then when its over reflect on what was working or even feel free to pause what you're doing mid drill if a good idea is coming to you on getting back from marth and you want to write it down
 
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victinivcreate1

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So I've been playing Falco since October. And one of my friends plays Falco and Marth. We play a lot.

Every time I play him, I get trashed. I dont even understand why I'm getting trashed. Every time when I approach with nair or dair, his aerial shine comes out faster OoS than my shine after my dair. How can I fix this? Its really annoying, especially since I know aerial shine OoS is somewhat slow.

I haven't been improving at all. It feels next to impossible to improve. I practice my tech skill and I practice different stuff like mixing up timings on shield pressure with the 20XX pack. I can punish just fine on the 20XX CPUs.

When I play him, that goes out the window. I get a shine and I can't even make much of it. At the most, all I do is get a dair, then a tech chase, and then its back to neutral.

Speaking of neutral, how does Falco play neutral in the ditto and when fighting Marth? I feel like I get shut down completely in the neutral. Lasering doesnt really do much cuz when he shields and I grab and up throw him, he just shines through my up throw somehow, and I end up getting comboed for it.

When playing the neutral vs his Marth, I keep getting DD grabbed when i aerial, and when I try to laser he just avoids with the platforms. Also, how can I pin Marth in a corner as Falco? Every time I try to he just escapes/I don't know what I'm doing and he gets out for free and then huge combo and I'm dead.
 

Xyzz

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Every time when I approach with nair or dair, his aerial shine comes out faster OoS than my shine after my dair.
----
I practice my tech skill and I practice different stuff like mixing up timings on shield pressure with the 20XX pack. I can punish just fine on the 20XX CPUs.
Those two don't go together. The only way for his shine OOS to be faster than your aerial to shine is for your aerial to be too early. Practice getting them late and shining ASAP and then you shouldn't be surprised by that anymore.
 

victinivcreate1

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Those two don't go together. The only way for his shine OOS to be faster than your aerial to shine is for your aerial to be too early. Practice getting them late and shining ASAP and then you shouldn't be surprised by that anymore.
This is where I'm confused at. What do you mean by late? Like aerial earlier in my jump or right before I land?
 

Xyzz

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Think about it.... if their shine is getting you between your aerial and your shine, you need to do those closer together. How can you get them together the closest? Aerial right before your fast fall input, so the hitbox comes out just before you touch the ground, and then shine as soon as you're actionable after the landing lag.
 

victinivcreate1

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Thanks!

When trying to improve Falco play, is it generally better to take it one step at a time? I think my problem was that I was practicing so many things at once.
 

Binx

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Practice each tech one at a time but do not do the same action after it. So wavedash then dash. Wd then jump. Wd then aerial or grab and so forth
 
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