PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Stalled]

Was lasering with Falco always suppose to press the B button ASAP or the FFall ASAP, and adjust the other's timing for the lower lasers.

Depends what height you want your laser to be at when it comes out. If you want to laser reset someone, you delay your laser a bit, if you want a high laser you laser asap and delay your ff. You generally should try to mixup your laser timing a bit, especially once you get to a point where people can powershield your stuff consistently.

Also the no laser shl mindgames are off the chain (sometimes).

 

[orvs]

It means it just doesn't have any interruptable frames.

thanks dude

Does crouching shine beat Fox's drill and or nair cleanly? I've done it a few times, but has anyone tested?

i've actually tested fox's drill vs falco shine on a human opponent. i've cleanly beaten drill with shine before, but i'm pretty sure that is because i happened to shine exactly on the frames of fox's dair where there are no active hitboxes, or when his hurtbox overlapped with the falco shine and since falco is invincible, shine wins. and that is straight up like.. a 2 frame window lol. if fox spaces the dair really nicely too, shine will just miss.

dunno about nair though. never seen that done before

 

[whitemountain123]

the dd post

Hey @ Dr Peepee ! This was a super helpful post—thank you!

You seemed to sort of touch on it, but I was hoping you could talk a bit more about falco's defensive options from his DD.

I find that, given his slow/short dash, falco feels a bit more limited when it comes to defensive play from DD than say a character like marth or fox.

I guess the fundamental issue I have is that I feel like the spacing I like to be at to threaten characters with my DD is closer than a spacing that I can act/react comfortably out of defensively in a lot of cases. So, I tend to get caught once the opposing character starts to encroach on my space/threaten with a forward dash or wd themselves. Then I feel like I’m sort of guessing with more committal defensive options (e.g., ac bairs, delayed bairs, shielding, retreating shl) because falco’s not fast enough to just dash away a lot of the time.

Does any of this make sense?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you can't move away with your DD and expect much of a counterattack potential as Falco, really. You kind of can vs Fox but even that is pretty specific.

The point of defensive movement though isn't to necessarily hit them right away when you're near them. If you're still in threatening range spacing, then backwards dashes still play a very important role. This is because when Falco is typically controlling much of the pace of the match with lasers, relief like backwards dashes typically encourages your opponent to act(and of course this leads to actions usually involving coming forward.) You need to remember what's ATTACHED to your dashes(those SH Nairs/Dairs/lasers) and you can still do those out of dashes backward.

See, there's a very important distinction I've been trying to dispel with this post mainly. It is that any one action is either ALL defensive or ALL aggressive. Typically, any action you choose will have elements of both offense and defense, and it is good to think of offensive potential in your defense, and vice versa. So even if you dash back, do not think of only being DEFENSIVE(SH Bair/Utilt, running away) because then you give up the forward/offensive part of your game.

Making this mindset switch is just as important to success as learning all of the options we are discussing in the first place I think.

 

[Bones0]

Zhu does a lot of dash back SH dair to hit Foxes. I've started incorporating it myself, and I'm always kind of surprised it hits, but I think it's partly based on what you're talking about in terms of viewing offense vs. defense, but from the other side. When opponents see people dash back, then tend to think of it only as a defensive maneuver so they aren't prepared to get hit by an aerial. I guess that's really the core of baiting in a way. Take an offensive threat and disguise it as a defensive maneuver.

 

[whitemountain123]

Yeah you can't move away with your DD and expect much of a counterattack potential as Falco, really. You kind of can vs Fox but even that is pretty specific.

The point of defensive movement though isn't to necessarily hit them right away when you're near them. If you're still in threatening range spacing, then backwards dashes still play a very important role. This is because when Falco is typically controlling much of the pace of the match with lasers, relief like backwards dashes typically encourages your opponent to act(and of course this leads to actions usually involving coming forward.) You need to remember what's ATTACHED to your dashes(those SH Nairs/Dairs/lasers) and you can still do those out of dashes backward.

See, there's a very important distinction I've been trying to dispel with this post mainly. It is that any one action is either ALL defensive or ALL aggressive. Typically, any action you choose will have elements of both offense and defense, and it is good to think of offensive potential in your defense, and vice versa. So even if you dash back, do not think of only being DEFENSIVE(SH Bair/Utilt, running away) because then you give up the forward/offensive part of your game.

Making this mindset switch is just as important to success as learning all of the options we are discussing in the first place I think.

This is hugely helpful! Thanks so much man!

 

[dfrogman]

won't the sh dair have priority over any aerial the fox is throwing out at the time too, viz:

^ to rehash what lumpy is saying:

Each from of a hitbox lingers into the next frame. This is very clear when looking at peach's forward air. The updated hitbox location follows her hand on each frame, however the hitbox also exists at the previous frame causing her move to have a large amount of priority.

In practical terms, this means that an aerial while moving backwards has more priority than an aerial moving forwards.

 

[sadistic]

What is a good option after a jab at low percentages?

 

[Twilight Emblem]

So Dr Pee Pee are there any good write ups on training good movement on purpose or in general things to be consistently mindful of in your intentions of movement to make it more effective? I'm worried if I just try to train movement strictly by increasing speed/fluidity and for the fun of running around the stage gymnastics style there won't be enough effective purpose behind it to leverage it for better results.

Sorry for how general this question is. Movement to me is a very new concept and I really want to be as mindful and as smart with it as I can be to abuse it properly. Really anything you have to share about using it very effectively that works for you would be a great starting point and I could try to creatively work on it from there.

To give you my perspective right now movement for me only = Being able to move with your character with impressive speed and fluidity and control and accuracy. But as you can see the problem here lies in that i'm training those qualities individually but not developing how to abuse those qualities mindfully

 

[Bones0]

So Dr Pee Pee are there any good write ups on training good movement on purpose or in general things to be consistently mindful of in your intentions of movement to make it more effective? I'm worried if I just try to train movement strictly by increasing speed/fluidity and for the fun of running around the stage gymnastics style there won't be enough effective purpose behind it to leverage it for better results.

Sorry for how general this question is. Movement to me is a very new concept and I really want to be as mindful and as smart with it as I can be to abuse it properly. Really anything you have to share about using it very effectively that works for you would be a great starting point and I could try to creatively work on it from there.

To give you my perspective right now movement for me only = Being able to move with your character with impressive speed and fluidity and control and accuracy. But as you can see the problem here lies in that i'm training those qualities individually but not developing how to abuse those qualities mindfully

If you're not at a point where you can experiment in game with how to use certain dashes or WDs, then you're probably just not good enough at tech skill and should grind in whatever way. You should try to avoid super repetitive stuff when tech skill training (unless you are trying to get specific stuff down like ledgedashing), but beyond that it doesn't matter. You only have to really worry about a few aspects of movement to really start using them mindfully anyway:
- DDing
- WDing
- WLing
- Jumping
- FFing

If you can use all of these with various combinations, then you can just watch videos to notice what top players do differently than you and test stuff yourself in practice.

 

[Jackson]

how do you do those really low dairs from the ledge that hit opponents rising up while still letting you land on the stage?
I assume it's ledge drop jump dair but i can never seem to get 'em low.

 

[Zeppeli]

Hey @ Dr Peepee !

I have two questions, if you don't mind answering! :]

The first of which is: How does Falco exert a game that enables him to either balance or enable him to acquire positional advantage on the stage in a safer manner?

I try to balance between doing laser -> aerial approach ... delayed aerial approach. Sometimes I just sit there after a laser and watch my opponents, and other times I'd dash back, try to anticipate an approach and bair my opponents. But in the end, it feels as though my opponents eventually walk me to the corner where I'm terrified - Given that falco can die from a few touches.

The only time I feel as though I'm really in control is when the opponent is by the ledge while I have center stage or when I've gotten my opponent stuck on a platform and am preparing to continue platform tech chasing him/her.

Which leads to my second question: How does Falco get out of the corner?

I've tried lasering (abet it only seems to work as a semi-threat or distraction and helps me, though on itself it hasn't let me out of the corner), approaching my opponent with an aerial (feels like the most reckless option, which I want to avoid given my goal is to just get out of the corner while mitigating as much risk as possible), wavelanding on a platform and going from there and sometimes rolling. At the end, I know about these tools but sometimes perform an incorrect judgment call when deciding which option to use.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[OninO]

This is a really interesting question as I notice the same sorts of problems in my game against certain opponents (those higher skilled than me). I can't figure out how to make them respect my space, or in other words, put the same fear into them.

This is me just spitballing here (nooblike) but I think it might be good to mix in dash dance/wavedash lasering with some stationary/fading SHFFL'd aerials, either nair or dair would be good. I'm thinking you throw them out at a spacing designed to catch aggressive movement (dash ins, quick walks). If you hit them, then you're sending the message, approach me and you get clipped. If you miss, no biggy, go back to lasering, or even advance with a cross up aerial if they're still trying to push into your space.

The other thing is that they have to fear hitting your shield badly. As in, every time they mis-space, or mistime an aerial, they get shined out of shield or grabbed. Throwing in spot dodges is another essential way of messing with their timing/flow chart. If you can make them fear your OoS options, then you've already pushed them back a bit, that is, they'll now be trying to space at the tip of their moves. When they're trying to space at the tip, you can now use small wave dashes/dash dances to make them wiff the attack.

 

[Bones0]

This is a really interesting question as I notice the same sorts of problems in my game against certain opponents (those higher skilled than me). I can't figure out how to make them respect my space, or in other words, put the same fear into them.

This is me just spitballing here (nooblike) but I think it might be good to mix in dash dance/wavedash lasering with some stationary/fading SHFFL'd aerials, either nair or dair would be good. I'm thinking you throw them out at a spacing designed to catch aggressive movement (dash ins, quick walks). If you hit them, then you're sending the message, approach me and you get clipped. If you miss, no biggy, go back to lasering, or even advance with a cross up aerial if they're still trying to push into your space.

The other thing is that they have to fear hitting your shield badly. As in, every time they mis-space, or mistime an aerial, they get shined out of shield or grabbed. Throwing in spot dodges is another essential way of messing with their timing/flow chart. If you can make them fear your OoS options, then you've already pushed them back a bit, that is, they'll now be trying to space at the tip of their moves. When they're trying to space at the tip, you can now use small wave dashes/dash dances to make them wiff the attack.

I've said this before, but I think just having a great punish game can really help you out in neutral. If the opponent knows you don't capitalize on random hits, they aren't going to play around those attacks. If you randomly AC bair someone and just reset to neutral, they won't respect your bairs until KO %, and why should they? If you bair them, immediately laser to lock them down, then vortex their shield into a death combo, suddenly on their next stock they are going to have to play neutral in a way that avoids AC bairs because they know it leads to heavy damage or even a stock. It limits their neutral and demands focus from them in a an additional area.

 

[Golden Spark]

Hey guys this is my first post, just seriously picked up melee and I have a question.

As a beginning falco main should I focus on Double shine or shine grab 1st?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey @ Dr Peepee !

I have two questions, if you don't mind answering! :]

The first of which is: How does Falco exert a game that enables him to either balance or enable him to acquire positional advantage on the stage in a safer manner?

I try to balance between doing laser -> aerial approach ... delayed aerial approach. Sometimes I just sit there after a laser and watch my opponents, and other times I'd dash back, try to anticipate an approach and bair my opponents. But in the end, it feels as though my opponents eventually walk me to the corner where I'm terrified - Given that falco can die from a few touches.

The only time I feel as though I'm really in control is when the opponent is by the ledge while I have center stage or when I've gotten my opponent stuck on a platform and am preparing to continue platform tech chasing him/her.

Which leads to my second question: How does Falco get out of the corner?

I've tried lasering (abet it only seems to work as a semi-threat or distraction and helps me, though on itself it hasn't let me out of the corner), approaching my opponent with an aerial (feels like the most reckless option, which I want to avoid given my goal is to just get out of the corner while mitigating as much risk as possible), wavelanding on a platform and going from there and sometimes rolling. At the end, I know about these tools but sometimes perform an incorrect judgment call when deciding which option to use.

Many thanks in advance!

1. Safe approaching is a bit confusing to speak of in the context of humans because options are relatively effective. Moving that aside for discussion purposes, I would say watching how I played around Pound 4-5 time would give lots of insight into this type of play. Since you have the threatening range set and know how far SH Dair/Nair/laser go, then you can do what I really liked to do back in the day and move forward slightly with lasers. This was great because people couldn't REALLY react to it well since it kinda looked like I was moving forward plus I was still very far away overall. Mixups from there are quite interesting but I don't want to do all of the work for you so I'll let you come up with them from that point(consider how people respond to each part of the slight forward laser).

2. Falco gets out of the corner doing some of what I just said. There are cheaper ways than that though lol. The first is simply going high to a top platform using dash FH/DJ or FH side B. The second is something Mango developed. If you FH then fall back down, people have to respect your Dair space. When they do that, you have room to fall with laser. Because of how quickly Falco falls, people can't come in to challenge laser without essentially guessing that's what you'll do and hoping you don't react. Then when you have them off balance and have a laser out you can take more control.

You can also do the other cheap stuff which is move back to the edge and invincible waveland onto the stage. Falco gets LOTS of invincibility from a perfect waveland(1 less frame than Fox) so you can even mess it up a bit and still have time to move/jump/attack with some invincibility.

I can tell you put some thought into this and your post so I responded accordingly. Good luck to you!

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys this is my first post, just seriously picked up melee and I have a question.

As a beginning falco main should I focus on Double shine or shine grab 1st?

Double shine is a very difficult and advanced mixup that won't help you for a while. Shine grab is easier and useful in more situations. Don't even worry about double shining; there's so many other things to learn that will help you way more, especially things besides tech skill.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

So i'm having a big motivation problem. Even though I want to get good at this game, that desire conflicts with this feeling that says sinking huge chunks of time into this game is a bad life decision and I should spend that time on more productive things that will further my future better.

Like every time i'm a few days into training a few hours a day it suddenly it just hits "You'll stop playing eventually and lose almost all the skill you spent these hours and months grinding for. Why are you putting in so much time to get paid so little? Even if you're the best at the game and win all the tournaments they don't make that much money. You could learn real financial skills with all this spare time and build that up to having a good source of income in a few years that would keep you set and comfortable for life or 1000 options more beneficial than sinking those hours into a falco. What are you trying to prove? You don't need skill at a video game to validate anything." Like etc etc etc these thoughts of increasing variety but all aimed at the purpose of attempting to discredit the value of getting this falco good just pop into my head one after the other and it puts a total stop to any ambition I have on wanting to get a good falco

Eventually I just put the controller down and decide to stop playing and then I cycle back into picking it up again later anyway. Thats pretty much why in the course of this thread you've seen me come back in after long stretches just to ask the same novice level questions I asked a few months back. I'm really on and off with this game because of this problem.

It sucks because in spite of that I still have that desire to get a good falco anyway. But I just can't get motivated enough to make a definite decision to an unwavering commitment to get this falco good right now.

I feel like i'm just going to be stuck on the fence on this game forever right now. Sorry for any salt that was in that post just something thats been a chip on my shoulder lately

 

[Bones0]

So i'm having a big motivation problem. Even though I want to get good at this game, that desire conflicts with this feeling that says sinking huge chunks of time into this game is a bad life decision and I should spend that time on more productive things that will further my future better.

Like every time i'm a few days into training a few hours a day it suddenly it just hits "You'll stop playing eventually and lose almost all the skill you spent these hours and months grinding for. Why are you putting in so much time to get paid so little? Even if you're the best at the game and win all the tournaments they don't make that much money. You could learn real financial skills with all this spare time and build that up to having a good source of income in a few years that would keep you set and comfortable for life or 1000 options more beneficial than sinking those hours into a falco. What are you trying to prove? You don't need skill at a video game to validate anything." Like etc etc etc these thoughts of increasing variety but all aimed at the purpose of attempting to discredit the value of getting this falco good just pop into my head one after the other and it puts a total stop to any ambition I have on wanting to get a good falco

Eventually I just put the controller down and decide to stop playing and then I cycle back into picking it up again later anyway. Thats pretty much why in the course of this thread you've seen me come back in after long stretches just to ask the same novice level questions I asked a few months back. I'm really on and off with this game because of this problem.

It sucks because in spite of that I still have that desire to get a good falco anyway. But I just can't get motivated enough to make a definite decision to an unwavering commitment to get this falco good right now.

I feel like i'm just going to be stuck on the fence on this game forever right now. Sorry for any salt that was in that post just something thats been a chip on my shoulder lately

Most people go through life not pursuing what they want without even realizing it. Consider yourself ahead of the game by even being aware you have conflicting priorities. Unfortunately, no one can really tell you what to do besides yourself. There are pros and cons to all life decisions, but if you let someone else dictate what path to take, you'll probably resent your choice either way because you didn't really make it yourself. At least if you pick one or the other (real life skills vs. Melee skills) you can own up to it being your decision and make the best of it. My only suggestion would be to maintain moderation as best you can until you decide (e.g. don't quit Melee and never play videogames until you're 35 with a small fortune; don't drop out of school to play Melee full time and end up working at McDonald's for life).

 

[Dr Peepee]

So i'm having a big motivation problem. Even though I want to get good at this game, that desire conflicts with this feeling that says sinking huge chunks of time into this game is a bad life decision and I should spend that time on more productive things that will further my future better.

Like every time i'm a few days into training a few hours a day it suddenly it just hits "You'll stop playing eventually and lose almost all the skill you spent these hours and months grinding for. Why are you putting in so much time to get paid so little? Even if you're the best at the game and win all the tournaments they don't make that much money. You could learn real financial skills with all this spare time and build that up to having a good source of income in a few years that would keep you set and comfortable for life or 1000 options more beneficial than sinking those hours into a falco. What are you trying to prove? You don't need skill at a video game to validate anything." Like etc etc etc these thoughts of increasing variety but all aimed at the purpose of attempting to discredit the value of getting this falco good just pop into my head one after the other and it puts a total stop to any ambition I have on wanting to get a good falco

Eventually I just put the controller down and decide to stop playing and then I cycle back into picking it up again later anyway. Thats pretty much why in the course of this thread you've seen me come back in after long stretches just to ask the same novice level questions I asked a few months back. I'm really on and off with this game because of this problem.

It sucks because in spite of that I still have that desire to get a good falco anyway. But I just can't get motivated enough to make a definite decision to an unwavering commitment to get this falco good right now.

I feel like i'm just going to be stuck on the fence on this game forever right now. Sorry for any salt that was in that post just something thats been a chip on my shoulder lately

You know what makes me mad? It's not your attitude at all. It's the attitude and thinking that people get forced onto them that you have to be acceptable/conforming in a certain way to be okay or be worth anything. That's not what makes you happy, just working some job you might hate for an amount of money that pleases people besides you. You know what does make you happy? Doing what YOU love. Doing what is fun to YOU. Following your own interests and really seeing where your potential is. That's what's great to do.

If you're worried about money, then maybe you have to do some things/work you don't like while you're following your passion(s) to get money. At least for some time. The thing about doing what you love is you're way more likely to get good at it(since you do it a lot and enjoyment/curiosity aids learning) and thus make money off of it than if you only did it halfway while constantly second-guessing yourself or never really knowing what could happen. There is actually some real money in the game now by the way. It depends a bit on where you live and how much money you need, but if you get good enough you can make an alright living in MANY places playing this game, and it seems like things will only get better on that front over time.

So basically, it's hard, people might judge you or not understand. If you explain and they don't care to hear it, then that's honestly on them. It's hard for money sometimes too, but you will be happier overall doing something you love to do than if you didn't do that and gave up and always wondered what might have been or tell yourself "it was dumb to love doing that anyway." That's just telling yourself you're dumb to enjoy life in some sense which is EXTREMELY unhealthy and painful and no one should have to feel that way.

I'll be honest with you, my parents really struggle trying to understand supporting me playing this game even as good as I am now. I've had to go it alone against their wishes for years and it was really hard. I just kept on playing anyway. It made me happy to do that. And now, I'm incredibly glad I did that for myself, and I'm truly hoping that you and everyone else that has a chance to read this will have the opportunity to do what they love as well, whether it's this game or anything else they are passionate about.

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

 

[SSS]

Stages against Peach?

Edgeguarding Peach?

 

[Alexander Duprey]

You know what makes me mad? It's not your attitude at all. It's the attitude and thinking that people get forced onto them that you have to be acceptable/conforming in a certain way to be okay or be worth anything. That's not what makes you happy, just working some job you might hate for an amount of money that pleases people besides you. You know what does make you happy? Doing what YOU love. Doing what is fun to YOU. Following your own interests and really seeing where your potential is. That's what's great to do.

If you're worried about money, then maybe you have to do some things/work you don't like while you're following your passion(s) to get money. At least for some time. The thing about doing what you love is you're way more likely to get good at it(since you do it a lot and enjoyment/curiosity aids learning) and thus make money off of it than if you only did it halfway while constantly second-guessing yourself or never really knowing what could happen. There is actually some real money in the game now by the way. It depends a bit on where you live and how much money you need, but if you get good enough you can make an alright living in MANY places playing this game, and it seems like things will only get better on that front over time.

So basically, it's hard, people might judge you or not understand. If you explain and they don't care to hear it, then that's honestly on them. It's hard for money sometimes too, but you will be happier overall doing something you love to do than if you didn't do that and gave up and always wondered what might have been or tell yourself "it was dumb to love doing that anyway." That's just telling yourself you're dumb to enjoy life in some sense which is EXTREMELY unhealthy and painful and no one should have to feel that way.

I'll be honest with you, my parents really struggle trying to understand supporting me playing this game even as good as I am now. I've had to go it alone against their wishes for years and it was really hard. I just kept on playing anyway. It made me happy to do that. And now, I'm incredibly glad I did that for myself, and I'm truly hoping that you and everyone else that has a chance to read this will have the opportunity to do what they love as well, whether it's this game or anything else they are passionate about.

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

Dude this really hit home for me, being a semi new player (bout 2 years under the belt) I'm still getting destroyed, but I still love to play, and motivation is big deal for me as well. Sometimes I lose to someone I thought I should have rekt and I start pondering why I still play, but then I see my progress right before my eyes when now I'm taking games off of players that a few months ago I hadn't dreamed of taking a game from.

I'm always dreamed of making a living of video games, it's still such a young market for esports, streaming, and gaming in general. Even if I never win a major, if I was able to making garnish a following with melee and set up a solid stream, that would be amazing. Until then I just grind the skill out, and I feel like I'm on the cusp of really great things, in melee and Smash4.

I also feel like passion is a greatly underlooked attribute in this or any other competitive game, passion is what is going to keep you playing through all the hardships. I know I have that passion. Tryna Make it BIG BABY!

Thanks for touching on this topic @ Dr Peepee and thank you for bringing this topic to light @ Twilight Emblem

 

[AirFair]

What are some essential things that every Falco should practice daily, if there was a routine for practice? I try and get some practice with Falco, but tend to only practice a little bit compared to Marth, so I want to know what I can start practicing before I move on to other techniques, that way I can keep a solid Falco for my bad matchups as Marth.

Thanks!

 

[Mystic Dragon]

PPMD your my inspiration. You are the reason I want to play smash, and you are the reason why I practice everyday to get better. I try as hard as I can so someday I could maybe be considered a "God of melee". I get better by practicing, but you sir have natural talent of the game, like you were born to play and become a legend. You don't go to as much tournaments as everyone, you took a break to study at school and get your phd, but what's sad of all is that your having a grusome battle with depression and still being one of the best players in the world, and of all time. I know your strong enough pp to get through this and you don't have to go through it alone. You have the whole smash community on your side rooting for you and helping you get by. Kids growing up usually say that their parents are their heroes, or anyone special to them. PP your my hero and it'll always be like that. STACK IT UP STACK IT UP!!!!!

 

[Berble]

Zhu does a lot of dash back SH dair to hit Foxes. I've started incorporating it myself, and I'm always kind of surprised it hits, but I think it's partly based on what you're talking about in terms of viewing offense vs. defense, but from the other side. When opponents see people dash back, then tend to think of it only as a defensive maneuver so they aren't prepared to get hit by an aerial. I guess that's really the core of baiting in a way. Take an offensive threat and disguise it as a defensive maneuver.

do you mean dash back and turn around to sh dair or do it straight out of the dash and hit them with the reverse hitbox?

 

[Bones0]

do you mean dash back and turn around to sh dair or do it straight out of the dash and hit them with the reverse hitbox?

0:11 and 0:21 are what I'm talking about. He doesn't always do it though. He mixes up with other stuff like bair, RSHL, empty land, waveland, double jump, etc.

 

[orvs]

Stages against Peach?

Edgeguarding Peach?

a lot of stages are actually alright in this matchup, but to get the maximum benefit out of each stage you have to play a certain way.

battlefield - this is a very.. standard stage. in a best of 3 half of the time i end up on this stage in the starting game after striking. Not much to say about this stage. to get KOs, you will mostly be getting them off the sides or by getting dair spikes. You can get kills off the top too, but it's a bit harder and if they have good DI it will be hard. going to top platform will help reset the neutral since it is hard for peach deal with characters being up there. there's nothing amazing about this stage for either character in the matchup imo.

yoshis - if i'm in a best of 3 set and for whatever reason they don't ban this stage, i'm going here. if i'm in a best of 5 set, i am for sure going here if i can. the low ceiling, and close blast zones make it easier to kill peach. there are plenty of set ups to KO her at really low percentages. however peach can poke through the top platform very easily so if you plan on camping her or going to the top to reset the neutral to some extent, you probably won't get away with it. the downside of this stage is that peach can death touch pretty easily here as well. a well experienced peach player will still do well here.

fountain - this is stage is OK, but you have to be aware of the platforms. her downsmash will wreck you if you aren't careful. this stage has a high ceiling so killing a good peach off the top will be very difficult. you can get some nice dair --> dair--> uptilt combos with the low platform heights, but you mess up your tech skill, or do it when her percent is too low, you will eat a hard punish. this stage helps peach out a bunch and doesn't do much for falco except for giving him a slightly higher combo potential imo.

dreamland - at first glance this looks like a bad stage in this matchup because peach will live for so long. however you have so much room to run and use your gun that it makes it really hard for peach to touch you. you have all the room to engage her when you feel like it and opt to just retreat whenever you aren't sure how to handle something (unless you are pinned to a corner obviously). you also live for much longer on this stage and you can camp the **** out of peach on the top platform here. this stage is good if you want to take your time and you don't mind peach living longer.

fd - imo this stage favors peach slightly in this matchup. this stage is really wide like dreamland so you can retreat a lot if you have to. however peach can float at a height to make it really hard to hit her wit lasers, and any solid hit that peach gets on you can convert into a huge combo or chaingrab. on almost every other stage, if you are grabbed and you end up on a platform after being thrown, you have a chance to avoid followups. here you have to eat the chaingrab. you can survive the chaingrab if you di the grabs until you are center stage, then survival DI when she goes for the nair/fthrow. be careful of grab mixups though. if you, the falco player, on the other hand lands a solid hit, it might not convert into a really big combo and you might have to combo differently. on other stages usually you can go for pillars but here that doesn't work as well until she has some damage on her. you'll have to practice and theorycraft potential followups for this stage. for example, at lowish percentages ~30% if you land a nair, you can pop her up (if she doesnt cc) and do 2 more nairs. i have legit comboed peach players with nair-->nair-->nair/weak bair --> dair/upsmash on this stage. from my experience though most of the time you have to be satisfied with getting just a few hits in, especially if they have good di. falco has answers for pretty much all of her approaches so this stage is definitely doable in this matchup, but it can be harder at times.

pokemon stadium - i personally value this stage as much as battlefield. there is a low ceiling, so it is easier to kill off the top. but there is no top platform in the neutral portion of this stage, so killing peach off the top in this state will take more work. transformations can assist greatly to get kills off the top and help you recompose yourself if you need a few moments to think. the stage is wide so there is usually room to fall back if needed. other than this, i dont have more to say.

as for edgegaurding, i tend to laser and wall her out with bair. i have other mixups like grabs, dair-->dair, ua, and all that. if she is recovering and she is high above the ledge, i do well spaced full jumps with/without bair and try to zone her so that she lands on the ledge. other times i straight up challenge her with back air. this ensures that if she indeed does makes it on the stage, at least she is pinned in a corner. when getting up from the ledge peach doesn't have many options, so you can wall her out with lasers, tilts, and aerials. when she is on stage and pinned to a corner and in her shield, she also doesn't have many ways to gain stage position so from there it's pretty much on you to counter her OOS options/movement.


tl;dr - battlefield is ok, stadium is ok, yoshi's is usually good, dreamland can be good depending on how you play, fountain and fd are ok but the fight will be harder imo.

for edgeguarding, bair is good. sometimes a well spaced dair is good too. if she is definitely going to make it back on to stage and you can't hit her before that happens, at least get her in the corner. from there you can pressure her with lasers, tilts, aerials, then watch what they do and counter it. you can also add grab mixups.

i'm no pro yet like some of the people in this thread, but i have been fighting a lot of peach players in my region lately. hope this helps.

 

[Zeppeli]

Hey everyone. I'm back with some more questions - If I may.

Thanks for the help PP! I've started to look at some of your Pound 4/5 matches, though it'll probably take a while to deconstruct and analyze.

Right now, I just have a few, basic questions for anybody free to answer:

1) What are the uses of laser -> SH forward shine? I'd assume its safer and gives you leniency over messing up with your standard dair xx shine string on shield. Not sure about its purpose outside that.

2) How about nair vs dair? I know nair can be CC'd at lower percents and also SDI'd or Shield DI'd away to make shine whiff. It also covers slightly more range but I don't think aiming to nick the opponent by the tick can be all that good. Mango also talked about it covering a wide arc platform stages where you can full hop nair to the top platform.

3) Is SH nair ever a good alternative to SH bair as a basic defensive tactic when somebody's coming to nair you? ie. fox
I remember Armada talking about it being key to the fox ditto matchup, so I'd assume the same for Falco when you aren't fast or confident enough to pull off turn -> SH bair in the moment before someone approaches you.

Thanks again!

 

[whitemountain123]

Stages against Peach?

Edgeguarding Peach?

i mostly agree with what @ O orvs said regarding stages, though I would say that ps is definitely good as a cp (maybe alongside ys)

orvs also covered a good amount of edgeguarding stuff, but for clarity/additional info i'd say that first off you have to pay attention to whether peach has used her parasol offstage or not. if she hasn't yet used her parasol, then you definitely want to laser her to take away her jump/float + get her low. Once she uses parasol, it's usually not a good idea to laser her since she'll gain height by up b-ing again.

if you can get her low enough that she has to go below the stage and parasol to sweetspot, then a well spaced dsmash on the edge will usually kill.

otherwise, basically what ovrs said is true: threaten and wall her out with bairs—if she's in her parasol sometimes try to get sort of diagonally below her to use your own bair. be cognizant of if she's gonna try to sweetspot the ledge from above and protect it by grabbing it or using ftilts. if she manages to get the ledge, don't panic and just wall her out as she tries to get back to center stage.

finally if she floats too close to the stage, you can sometimes position yourself to catch her with a dair (usually the risk reward is not too bad here, like so: http://youtu.be/WMpUymqNkag?t=34s)

tl;dr watch some pp armada matches lol (in particular pound v and smasher's reunion)

What are some essential things that every Falco should practice daily, if there was a routine for practice? I try and get some practice with Falco, but tend to only practice a little bit compared to Marth, so I want to know what I can start practicing before I move on to other techniques, that way I can keep a solid Falco for my bad matchups as Marth.

Thanks!

start by reading http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-439#post-14739329.

also, you should know that Marth doesn't need a secondary and I think most good players would agree with that, maybe with the exception for the sheik matchup. additionally, falco is a character in particular imo that requires a lot of tech skill practice so...

in any case, falco specific stuff to practice would be some combination of the following:

—standard dair shine pillaring (for combo purposes). make sure you're consistent at reacting to di and not getting stuck in your shine
—shine waveland movement for comboing-test yourself to make sure you can waveland forward and backward if need be
—lasers: different heights, off and through platforms, fhing
—shine oos
—recovery/ledge options: shortening side-b, up b angles, ledgedash, etc.
—options out of your dd
—shine grab + immediate retreating aerials out of a shine to be (mostly) safe on shields

i've probably forgotten something but getting this stuff consistent + just standard stuff that applies to the whole cast will probably keep you busy for a while :D

 

[AirFair]

Thanks! I keep Falco for the matchups I don't like, and I also like his combo game lol.

 

[trilok]

Hey everyone. I'm back with some more questions - If I may.

Thanks for the help PP! I've started to look at some of your Pound 4/5 matches, though it'll probably take a while to deconstruct and analyze.

Right now, I just have a few, basic questions for anybody free to answer:

1) What are the uses of laser -> SH forward shine? I'd assume its safer and gives you leniency over messing up with your standard dair xx shine string on shield. Not sure about its purpose outside that.

2) How about nair vs dair? I know nair can be CC'd at lower percents and also SDI'd or Shield DI'd away to make shine whiff. It also covers slightly more range but I don't think aiming to nick the opponent by the tick can be all that good. Mango also talked about it covering a wide arc platform stages where you can full hop nair to the top platform.

3) Is SH nair ever a good alternative to SH bair as a basic defensive tactic when somebody's coming to nair you? ie. fox
I remember Armada talking about it being key to the fox ditto matchup, so I'd assume the same for Falco when you aren't fast or confident enough to pull off turn -> SH bair in the moment before someone approaches you.

Thanks again!

1. not sure what you mean by this.
2. try to be aware not to get crouch canceled with weak hit/early nairs. I like using dair in techasing and catching the opponent in certain situations. i dont think late nair shines can be cc punished (idk if it is possible with like a 2 frame window with shine?). I like using mostly nair vs dair in approach/shield pressure situations since it has less lag for the same shield stun and it comes out 1 frame earlier i believe. dair usually comboes and sets up comboes better, and nair can have slightly farther range, but the dair hitbox is bigger and has more priority(its usually better to come down with a dair than nair over an opponent for example). since they have different strengths and weakness, its pretty situational which is usually better.
3. short hop dair for falco when the other spacies is gonna land near u with an aerial is usually better than a nair in place due to the hitbox and hurtbox locations when performing the move(its like a big globe on your legs while u are slightly diagonal in the air). autocanceled/bairs and uptilts and retreating lasers combined with the awareness to soos on early aerials are good defensive options for falco.

 

[Berble]

i have trouble pillaring marth at low percents around 0-20. he gets out of hitstun before hitting the ground so i cant shine or utilt him
is pillaring a true combo on him even at 0? should i just be delaying my dairs more so hes in hitstun long enough for another shine or is there a better option at lower percents

 

[Stalled]

@ Zeppeli I feel like shorthopping into the enemy without a hitbox is very unsafe, and not really worth it when you could shl into shine range instead of having to shorthop into the enemy, seems more like something fox might do than falco, especially since with our high dj we're gonna be stuck above the opponent. I wouldn't do it, but maybe someone wiser can disagree with me.

Does the frame data for falco's invincible ledgedash exist anywhere?

 

[orvs]

Hey everyone. I'm back with some more questions - If I may.

Thanks for the help PP! I've started to look at some of your Pound 4/5 matches, though it'll probably take a while to deconstruct and analyze.

Right now, I just have a few, basic questions for anybody free to answer:

1) What are the uses of laser -> SH forward shine? I'd assume its safer and gives you leniency over messing up with your standard dair xx shine string on shield. Not sure about its purpose outside that.

2) How about nair vs dair? I know nair can be CC'd at lower percents and also SDI'd or Shield DI'd away to make shine whiff. It also covers slightly more range but I don't think aiming to nick the opponent by the tick can be all that good. Mango also talked about it covering a wide arc platform stages where you can full hop nair to the top platform.

3) Is SH nair ever a good alternative to SH bair as a basic defensive tactic when somebody's coming to nair you? ie. fox
I remember Armada talking about it being key to the fox ditto matchup, so I'd assume the same for Falco when you aren't fast or confident enough to pull off turn -> SH bair in the moment before someone approaches you.

Thanks again!

1. i actually do this as a mixup when my opponents learn that i'm spacing so well with lasers that they can't hit me out of their shield with a move. and sometimes i do variations of it, like this: short hop laser--->dash dance--> short hop shine. most of the time i do it when i have a read on my opponent, especially when they are under a side platform (they don't have to be under a platform for this to work though). when they are under a platform for whatever reason in the neutral, i usually throw out a laser and observe what they do. sometimes they will full jump to to attempt to waveland on the platform after shielding/tanking the laser, or sometimes they will be ballsy and they will attempt to wavedash forward into a falco who is spacing lasers, so that they might have an easier time hitting falco. so if i'm sure they are going to jump out of shield to wavedash forward or to move to a platform, if i do an approaching shorthop shine, it will clip them as they are jumping/wavedashing and start a combo for me. look at what ppmd attempts to do to shroomed in this video 0:21-0:24 ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjP8wbNkv1g. If they stay in shield, then i still have a chance to escape unscratched because after the shine i can double jump then waveland left or right on the platform, i can double jump and then cover myself falling down with a dair hitbox (while moving left or right if i have to), or i can straight up just double jump out of the shine and then make them guess where i will land. either way, for my opponent to counter this approach they have to do something as i'm jumping towards them, or do something after the shine hits their shield. and for them to do this they have to read me... or have some really good reaction.

2. oh man XD. both of these moves are godlike. there is so much use for both.

Nair

- amazing for approaching because it can catch people retreating (rolling or wavedashing backwards).
- good combo starter on pretty much any character if they don't/can't cc
- nair contorts falco's body such that it can straight up dodge some grounded attacks and then hit the opponent in the middle of their animation and knock them away.
-against characters who don't have much range/speed, delaying and spacing the tip of this move on their sheild is some sick pressure.
-against fast fallers, when they are at the percent that they get knocked down after a nair, you can abuse this to make them fear teching in a certain pattern.
-covers a large amount of space when aiming for platforms
-can beat certain hitboxes of characters as they are coming down from platform.
-stays out long, so its amazing for edgeguarding
- if the opponent is on a platform and soft nair nicks them enough so that they are in the air away from the platform but still close by, they have so much less options than you, even if they aren't in hitstun. you can counter the next option they take.

Dair .

you and trilok pretty much covered it

- like trilok mentioned, dair has so much priority. if you fade back with it it will straight up beat attacks from other characters with smaller limbs if you time it right, for example fox short hop nair, and peach dash attack. amazing as a counterattack
- like you mentioned it can't be crouch cancelled after certain percentages.
- dair pretty much combos into anything on any character after a while because it just pops em up.
- on fountain this move is even more amazing with the low platforms.
-while comboing, even if the opponent smash dis the the dair while on the ground so that following shine will miss, you still get a guaranteed followup depending on percent --> up tilt, down tilt, forward tilt, grab, downsmash.
- while comboing, dair is good if you want to potentially extend the combo, by slamming them into the floor/platform and set up for a techchase. none of falco's other moves can really do this when the opponent is high in the air.
- while edgeguarding, there are some scenarios that perfectly set up dair --> dair
- as an edgeguarding tool in general, it's amazing

3. it depends on what you're trying to achieve i guess. but most of the time i personally use bair over nair as a defensive tactic because it sends them farther and it autocancels. the only time i really use nair as a defensive tactic is to sometime counter very specific approaches to start combos/nick them. for example against a marth, if they are at a low percent and i'm absolutely sure that they will space a dash attack against me (to the point where i can't just block and then shine out of shield), sometimes i'll nair in place/fade forward, so that the soft nair hits the extended arm of marth. it's what mango does in this video at 1:33 --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfxGX7S2v4. at lower percents it sometimes will combo into a shine. there are other situations kind of like this with different characters as well

@ Zeppeli I feel like shorthopping into the enemy without a hitbox is very unsafe, and not really worth it when you could shl into shine range instead of having to shorthop into the enemy, seems more like something fox might do than falco, especially since with our high dj we're gonna be stuck above the opponent. I wouldn't do it, but maybe someone wiser can disagree with me.

Does the frame data for falco's invincible ledgedash exist anywhere?

yep
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-552#post-17998392

 

[Mystic Dragon]

Pp what's your opinion on smash 4?

 

[Dr Peepee]

ain't about that life

 

[Mystic Dragon]

Lol pp your a boss

 

[Mystic Dragon]

other than smash what's your favourite game?

 

[Zeppeli]

Man, jab -> shine is great.

@PP or anybody else: Is there a way to improve your reactions, or at least be capable of discerning what kind of DI it is right after you land a shine? I think this would definitely improve everybody's overall punishgame because I'm usually left with the right idea about how to continue on a punish + the execution to do it, but simply fail to do it fast enough.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

PeePee will you honor the Diddy Kong Racing MM I challenged you to like 4 years ago?