PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

OninO · Jan 6, 2015

Good point Binx about mixing up the exit action. One of my problems is I practised the same batches of actions in series all the time so my execution trees are quite static.

Xyzz · Jan 7, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
Thanks!

When trying to improve Falco play, is it generally better to take it one step at a time? I think my problem was that I was practicing so many things at once.

That's not a question about Falco, that's a question about you. Personally, I prefer to practice stuff separately in a pressure free environment (lvl1 cpu or sth in melee) and only then add it to my arsenal of stuff I use in matches. Other people have different preferences when it comes to learning things. Find out what works best for you.

Jackson · Jan 9, 2015

I want to get good at ledgedashing with Falco. Can someone describe the timing in order to get the cleanest ledgedashes?

Teran · Jan 9, 2015

Jackson said:
I want to get good at ledgedashing with Falco. Can someone describe the timing in order to get the cleanest ledgedashes?

I can't say I know what your problem is, but 9 times out of 10 when someone struggles with Falco tech, they're inputting certain commands too soon, you probably have to drop a little lower than you are right now.

Jackson · Jan 10, 2015

Teran said:
I can't say I know what your problem is, but 9 times out of 10 when someone struggles with Falco tech, they're inputting certain commands too soon, you probably have to drop a little lower than you are right now.

Ah, that might be right, thank you. I'll mess around with it more.

victinivcreate1 · Jan 10, 2015

Went to my first Melee tournament, had a run in with G$ and my Falco got trashed by his Marth (and thus I gave up and Marth ditto'd him). How should I approach Marth, particularly on platform stages (we played on BF in game 1)? i feel like lasering is a bad idea since he can just get on a platform and wait me out. I'm surprised my Falco took a stock tbh lol.

alphabattack · Jan 10, 2015

Purpletuce · Jan 11, 2015

Jackson, there is a trade-off. The lower you jump, the more time you spend jumping, losing invincibility. However, the lower you jump, the timing window to adjust your joystick and input the waveland becomes more lenient. If you drop too low, you won't have any invincibility. If you try to drop as little as possible you will have to practice a ton to get consistent.

Find the optimal strategy for you, and practice.

Heero Yuy · Jan 11, 2015

Whenever I Dair on someone's shield, I L-cancel fine but STILL get shieldgrabbed when trying to buffer a shine. Was told that I should input the Dair a little bit later to avoid this.

Is this true?

victinivcreate1 · Jan 11, 2015

Heero Yuy said:
Whenever I Dair on someone's shield, I L-cancel fine but STILL get shieldgrabbed when trying to buffer a shine. Was told that I should input the Dair a little bit later to avoid this.

Is this true?

Yea its true. Though it does confuse me when people say dair a little late.

Teran · Jan 11, 2015

Yeah the shieldstun is only enough on a delayed dair for it to be truly safe on shield.

Having said that if you always delay your dair they may pick up on it and grab you, so it's always good to mix things up and throw them off.

Jackson · Jan 11, 2015

Purpletuce said:
Jackson, there is a trade-off. The lower you jump, the more time you spend jumping, losing invincibility. However, the lower you jump, the timing window to adjust your joystick and input the waveland becomes more lenient. If you drop too low, you won't have any invincibility. If you try to drop as little as possible you will have to practice a ton to get consistent.

Find the optimal strategy for you, and practice.

Thanks, that's a solid explanation. I really want the invincibility, but yeah, it seems tough.

Pr0fessor Flash · Jan 11, 2015

Is Westballz Pressure good?

Bones0 · Jan 11, 2015

Heero Yuy said:
Whenever I Dair on someone's shield, I L-cancel fine but STILL get shieldgrabbed when trying to buffer a shine. Was told that I should input the Dair a little bit later to avoid this.

Is this true?

You cannot buffer a shine. You have to time the input so that you do it as soon as your dair's landing lag ends.

Pr0fessor Flash said:
Is Westballz Pressure good?

Good is a relative term.

Tainted ZGS · Jan 11, 2015

Guys, I'm wondering if any of you know anything about a weird falco trick I've seen when I play. I've looked for it all over the internet but can't seem to find it.
Sometimes when I downsmash (I input the command multiple times sometimes...) [i using the control stick and a button], it will do 2 downsmash almost repeatedly. I'm actually trying to figure out how this is performed so I can possibly catch my opponent off guard if I whiff a downsmash.

Sorry for bad grammar, on IPad,
Thanks.
-Tainted

Bones0 · Jan 12, 2015

Tainted ZGS said:
Guys, I'm wondering if any of you know anything about a weird falco trick I've seen when I play. I've looked for it all over the internet but can't seem to find it.
Sometimes when I downsmash (I input the command multiple times sometimes...) [i using the control stick and a button], it will do 2 downsmash almost repeatedly. I'm actually trying to figure out how this is performed so I can possibly catch my opponent off guard if I whiff a downsmash.

Sorry for bad grammar, on IPad,
Thanks.
-Tainted

You can't interrupt a dsmash with another dsmash no matter how you input it. What is probably happening is you are CCing an attack after doing the first dsmash and then inputting a second dsmash.

Pr0fessor Flash · Jan 12, 2015

Bones0 said:
You cannot buffer a shine. You have to time the input so that you do it as soon as your dair's landing lag ends.

Good is a relative term.

I'll say it like this Is Westballz Pressure useful?

Oskurito · Jan 12, 2015

Pr0fessor Flash said:
I'll say it like this Is Westballz Pressure useful?

Yes, even mago does it sometimes, it must be good right? lol

I think is only useful if you can do it so easily to the point where you can react to whatever your opponent does while you're doing it, otherwise you're not going to get much out of it and is going to be a BIG waste of effort.

victinivcreate1 · Jan 12, 2015

Am I the only one who thinks it sucks? Like literally its a free shieldgrab when they wavedash.

Jackson · Jan 12, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
Am I the only one who thinks it sucks? Like literally its a free shieldgrab when they wavedash.

It seems that you're right, but it works so well for Westballz.

Tainted ZGS · Jan 12, 2015

Bones0 said:
You can't interrupt a dsmash with another dsmash no matter how you input it. What is probably happening is you are CCing an attack after doing the first dsmash and then inputting a second dsmash.

Yes I've looked at all the technical information and know that it is not technically possible, but I am somehow managing to do the second one within ending lag of the first downsmash. I will try to get it on vid once I get a capture device.

victinivcreate1 · Jan 12, 2015

Jackson said:
It seems that you're right, but it works so well for Westballz.

I've seen PPMD do an aerial shine OoS on Westballz's pressure, Mango flat out grabs it, I've seen SFAT try to grab it but barely miss, Lucky waits for the wavedash and then tries to escape or nair out, etc.

I think the reason why it works so well is because Westballz's pressure is like Mew2King's punishes; he literally can't choke them, even if he got fourstocked twice and is down two games in a best of five set with 1000 dollars on the line. Plus, Westballz also has other shield pressure besides his doubleshine WD which makes it kinda scary.

Bones0 · Jan 12, 2015

Pr0fessor Flash said:
I'll say it like this Is Westballz Pressure useful?

I didn't mean to sound nitpicky, but it really does affect the question. If you don't want to learn to do proper grounded double shines, Westballz pressure is probably the next best thing.

Tainted ZGS said:
Yes I've looked at all the technical information and know that it is not technically possible, but I am somehow managing to do the second one within ending lag of the first downsmash. I will try to get it on vid once I get a capture device.

It sounds like you're talking about IASA frames, which stands for "interruptable as soon as". Most moves allow you to take a shortcut from one move to another by interrupting the later part of the animation with another attack or action. Check the Falco hitbox/frame data thread for the IASA frames of each move.

sadistic · Jan 13, 2015

I'm trying to learn grounded shine OoS. I use the claw grip on my controller, and this makes it pretty easy for me to consistently do grounded shine OoS, unless I'm trying to do it after shieldstun (which of course is typically when you want to use it). 90% of the time I input a jump during shield stun, then try doing the shine, but because the jump didn't register, I end up spot dodging instead. How do people manage to do a grounded shine OoS without doing the inputs too early?

OninO · Jan 13, 2015

I have a similar problem, it's just a matter of becoming experienced with shield stun from various moves.

Oskurito · Jan 13, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
I've seen PPMD do an aerial shine OoS on Westballz's pressure, Mango flat out grabs it, I've seen SFAT try to grab it but barely miss, Lucky waits for the wavedash and then tries to escape or nair out, etc.

I think the reason why it works so well is because Westballz's pressure is like Mew2King's punishes; he literally can't choke them, even if he got fourstocked twice and is down two games in a best of five set with 1000 dollars on the line. Plus, Westballz also has other shield pressure besides his doubleshine WD which makes it kinda scary.

Lol, have you ever gotten wb pressured? Is pretty hard to do anything, you even have to time the roll right because if you don't you get shined and messed up very hard. Even armada sits on his shield for a while and tryes not to do anything wrong.

But yeah, is not like westballz pressure makes you invincible or something like that.

victinivcreate1 · Jan 13, 2015

Oskurito said:
Lol, have you ever gotten wb pressured? Is pretty hard to do anything, you even have to time the roll right because if you don't you get shined and messed up very hard. Even armada sits on his shield for a while and tryes not to do anything wrong.

But yeah, is not like westballz pressure makes you invincible or something like that.

Actually I have. I roll or grab after the wavedash.

Oskurito · Jan 13, 2015

victinivcreate1 said:
Actually I have. I roll or grab after the wavedash.

I just roll since most of the times I don't think I can get much out of a shield grab against fox or falco I prefer shine oos (I usually grab when comboing) + the timing is difficult for me cause I suck against it and sometimes I scrub it and get shined off stage and die (against fox).

Example (me getting rekt):

Jackson · Jan 13, 2015

Oskurito said:
I just roll since most of the times I don't think I can get much out of a shield grab against fox or falco I prefer shine oos (I usually grab when comboing) + the timing is difficult for me cause I suck against it and sometimes I scrub it and get shined off stage and die (against fox).

Example (me getting rekt):

That fox was CLEAN. I could see how that would be difficult.

Oskurito · Jan 13, 2015

Jackson said:
That fox was CLEAN. I could see how that would be difficult.

Yeah, is not as easy as it sounds.

Boomhound · Jan 13, 2015

Guys I'm potentially sorry to ask but the thread and guide are locked and I'm overcome with curiosity-
What is (was?) the ''Hypnotoad''??

trilok · Jan 14, 2015

Boomhound said:
Guys I'm potentially sorry to ask but the thread and guide are locked and I'm overcome with curiosity-
What is (was?) the ''Hypnotoad''??

platform/ledge edgecanceling with phantasm on various stages.

westballz pressure is fine as a mixup, but there are usually better mixups that have a smaller window to punish.
pretty much anything after 2 shines starts to become easier to punish as shield pressure, especially with falco.

Stalled · Jan 14, 2015

I'm struggling to implement waveshines into my game, I can do them consistently in practice and in game, I'm just not sure when i would benefit by doing it, any tips?

OninO · Jan 14, 2015

What do you mean waveshines? Do you mean wavedashing out of your shine? In which case you should do it almost every time unless you're confident they're not gonna DI away from you.

Jackson · Jan 14, 2015

Waveshining is an essential tech. There's no "situation" in which to use it, it's basically all the time.

Stalled · Jan 14, 2015

So, to follow up basically?

Jackson · Jan 14, 2015

Stalled said:
So, to follow up basically?

Yeah, pretty much. When fighting Fox, Falco, or Falcon you can get a lot of damage at low to mid percents by doing dair waveshine dair.

Bones0 · Jan 14, 2015

Stop thinking of waveshining as its own thing. If you want to move left or right quickly after shining, do a WD.

Jackson · Jan 14, 2015

Yo... I heard Mogwai and PP made a cool laser thread, I want to improve my laser game so could someone link me? I couldnt find it on the first page of the board.

Purpletuce · Jan 15, 2015

Regarding Westballz pressure, here are my thoughts/observations. Whenever you do shield pressure, the opponent will always get a chance to do something. No shield pressure in unbeatable. For shine dair pressure, you can either do an early dair or a late dair. If the try to do something after shine, early dair will punish it. If they try to do something after late dair, shine will punish it. Westballz pressure functions similar to shine -> early aerial.

However there are some differences...

Advantages: Westballz pressure keeps your aerial less stale (the extra shine isn't really affected by stale moves due to rounding), and can intimidate your opponent (they think you are more technical than they are). In some situations, you can get a better follow up/position from hitting with a shine, and if you would like, opens up the option of landing on a platform (good against characters who can't punish above them as well like puff or icies).

Disadvantages: Execution is generally considered harder, and messing this up can result in you being in a combo without a DJ (very bad), doesn't allow you to fade in/out as well, and in some situations you would rather hit with an aerial than a shine (can be harder to follow up, does less %). The shine is easier to wiff (they shield DI), and is also out for less time, so if you wiff, it is easier to punish.

Summary: It can be nice, but isn't necessary as far as I know.

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Through Fire, Justice is Served

Smash Lord

Banned via Warnings

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

#sweg

Banned via Warnings

Through Fire, Justice is Served

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Rookie

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Banned via Warnings

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Banned via Warnings

Smash Legend

Smash Cadet

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Banned via Warnings

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Information

Network