PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[SpiderMad]

@ Bones0 do you know of a use of the reduced height in SH/FH from frame perfect aerials/specials?

 

[Bones0]

@ Bones0 do you know of a use of the reduced height in SH/FH from frame perfect aerials/specials?

I mean, you can basically just use it any time you'd prefer to have a shorter jump, which usually means you're landing quicker or not landing on a platform at all. You can use the shorter jump for just about anything, such as combos, but it'll have such niche uses it doesn't seem worth really thinking about unless you have a specific scenario that keeps coming up and you, for instance, want to hit an opponent at a certain height with a weak, rising aerial...

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Is the frame data for JC Shine OoS and Shield Drop JC Shine the same?

 

[Jackson]

When you Upthrow, say, a Fox, are you supposed to react to which side of you he goes or is it a hard guess?

 

[Bones0]

When you Upthrow, say, a Fox, are you supposed to react to which side of you he goes or is it a hard guess?

React.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Dr Peepee On Smashpractice you said you didn't use the C-stick at all, but I thought you did? Well you mentioned for dropping Uairs. I also heard Mango doesn't, and on a video he said you get better from not using C-stick. I wonder what he means. Maybe that you're usually a little faster from X to A than C-stick if you randomly decide you want it earlier. And your more in-tune with your timing to do Nairs better.

Also has your opinion on the White controller changed at all through the years? Isn't the Control stick overly tight making turn around lasers more risky to get side-b or anything like that? How loose is yours, and does/did it get looser over time/use (you bought it brand new right?).

And how weak/easy to press would you categorize your shoulder triggers as? Have you ever thought of modifying/weakening them (I may have asked you this before). Do you feel like you wish your hard press clicker took less force to click?

 

[Bones0]

I think Mango meant that you get better/more precise control of your analog stick movements faster if you're constantly using them for aerials. I started out doing a lot of aerials with the control stick but have been slowly switching to C-stick for various situations over the years. It seems worthwhile to be comfortable with both input methods because there are inevitably going to be moments where C-stick your aerials isn't feasible unless you claw or tap jump, but even then you have to be able to nair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee On Smashpractice you said you didn't use the C-stick at all, but I thought you did? Well you mentioned for dropping Uairs. I also heard Mango doesn't, and on a video he said you get better from not using C-stick. I wonder what he means. Maybe that you're usually a little faster from X to A than C-stick if you randomly decide you want it earlier. And your more in-tune with your timing to do Nairs better.

Also has your opinion on the White controller changed at all through the years? Isn't the Control stick overly tight making turn around lasers more risky to get side-b or anything like that? How loose is yours, and does/did it get looser over time/use (you bought it brand new right?).

And how weak/easy to press would you categorize your shoulder triggers as? Have you ever thought of modifying/weakening them (I may have asked you this before). Do you feel like you wish your hard press clicker took less force to click?

I don't know why A button would help your game but I just like spending less energy to do faster inputs.

I've never cared much about white controllers over other ones. The only thing that white controllers do differently is they give me a callous on one of my fingers due to the way I hold it lol. Controllers are pretty whatever for me. The stick will get more loose if you just use it a lot just like any other controller.

I mean I use L for everything so I just use L so much that it takes very little force to click it. You can just remove it though that works for many people. I like wearing it in myself personally.

 

[Purpletuce]

So as of recent, I've mainly been playing Falco, and I've got a few questions...

First, my playstyle is to attempt more lockdown/zoning compared to most Falcos I see. This seems more effective on bad characters, and against Fox/Falco (Shiek to a lesser extent) I feel like I'm forced to play more aggressive than I usually like. I use lots of Utilt as an anti-air, bair to zone (max of AC and SHFFL), and laser, but these tools seem less effective against the better characters. Is this playstyle just worse against these characters, or is it just harder, and I need more experience vs. them?

Second, is Downward-Angled F-Tilt considered a reliable way to cover a Firefox/Firebird to the ledge? In most videos I watch, players tend to go for the ledge less than in my local scene, and I'm assuming that is because it gets punished more often at high level play? What option is scaring spacies away from attempting the sweetspot?

 

[trilok]

I don't know why A button would help your game but I just like spending less energy to do faster inputs.

I've never cared much about white controllers over other ones. The only thing that white controllers do differently is they give me a callous on one of my fingers due to the way I hold it lol. Controllers are pretty whatever for me. The stick will get more loose if you just use it a lot just like any other controller.

I mean I use L for everything so I just use L so much that it takes very little force to click it. You can just remove it though that works for many people. I like wearing it in myself personally.

I try to be a bit ergonomic when approaching buttons and inputs. The more buttons i can evenly spread between my fingers, I think the better.
I use R for wavedash/sheild and L for lcanceling. I think using L for shielding is better because using different buttons helps wavedash oos though it can be done with the same button.
As bones said, it depends on the situation whether it is ergonomic to use the cstick or the A button.

white controllers don't have a stabilizer, and their case never closes properly and feels weird. I have one and replaced the case and added stabilizing bars. The smash Logo controllers are super weird. Usually the white controllers take like a month max of Melee use and you can reverse laser with ease and the stick wont swing back and mess you up. A few other players and myself have labbed pretty darn hard since the controller was relerased yet the stick is still kind of weird in the swing back, messing up lasers. I use a backup controller in tournaments because of this. This controller is not like any other controller from my experience, and I have a LOT of controllers. Im still hoping the stick will wear.


Mini Ramble on why taking out 1 spring from a trigger is useful and why analog triggers make certain melee techniques more difficult:

I thought wearing out the trigger was a decent option, but removing the trigger from atleast one is a game changer for consistency. From what I have experienced:
-Increased wavedash consistency since it feels so natural and consistent. Probably never mess this up anymore when I might have rarely.
-Increased powershield consistency.
-Increased Ledgedash consistency by a lot.

Removing the spring removes its analog capability and turns it basically into a button. When pressing the R or L button, most people don't realize that they spend about 2-3 frames actually pressing the button sometimes. To test this, go on the hackpack and frame count a double jump and then an airdodge. jump and press x/y and R/L at the same time or try to press R 1 frame later and you can get some idea of how long it takes for you to press R or L 1 frame later or in general. The time it takes for you to press the triggers might differ between different controllers which is why it may feel wonky to some people and it changes over time when the spring gets worn. Removing it improves powersheilding for 3 reasons. One is that you can't lightsheild such as if you held in the controller before plugging it in. The second reason is that it removes inconsistency of how long it takes for you to press the darn trigger button, as you probably press it in just 1 frame instead of 1-3. The third reason, similar to the second is that it lets you react later to a move. without taking it out, your muscle memory to a laser is probably 2-3 frames earlier to your actual press of the trigger to powersheild. Now you can react pretty much when you should be pressing it (2/4 frame windows). The primary reason why I considered taking out was actually because of ledgedash consistency. I think the trigger is the number 1 or 2 reason why people struggle with its consistency. after dropping down and pressing jump 1 frame after, you need to airdodge 2 frames later. The X to R button press is weird. Since it takes some time to press the trigger button all the way to airdodge, you actually hit them around the same time or start the trigger press before you even hit jump(moreso for fox by 1 frame). This used to frustrate me because it removes intangibilty frames (3/5 for 1 and 2 frames off) and the trigger just feels so weird. I think it took me like 30 minutes-1hr to switch to a springless trigger and nowadays I find it more natural. It doesn't really take much more effort to go back as I have triggers with springs that i practice with as well.

Although with enough practice, you can play melee consistently with pretty much any style to press buttons, some ways are definitely easier and more ergonomic. I think there are benefits in removing the spring from 1 trigger though maybe some might find it unnecessary. Ergonomics along with stretching are actually kinda important for more button pressing spacies and you might find your hands hurting if you press buttons inefficiently.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ T trilok You should try the Wifi set version of PM with it's Light press Air dodge ( and everything, just like Smash 4). I find that more comfortable, especially since that's how the majority of GC games were (any multi-console released game had the input assigned to light press, and only the ones that took advantage of the analog sensitivity like F-Zero and Metroid would thus have the hard press [and F-zero is said to be a killer on your hands to speed run because of this to perform the technique where you gotta full press each trigger from side to side rapidly]). Compared to spring removal, this is allowing you to trigger Shield and L-cancel like you normally would without a spring; which in comparison to without a spring would require a spacer to get anywhere similar (and still take more force and feel different).

I outlined issues you gain by doing this here: http://smashboards.com/threads/a-di...ad-thing-health-related.360937/#post-17071426

That is unless you only remove one of your springs and so you can use the other to L-cancel while preserving your tech/Buffer Shield while in freefall/Shield drop aerial without tethering with a tether character which you and others like @9bit @DrinkingFood do (probly should add this guy to the convo).
This though requires either having your muscle memory like that already between the two triggers, or changing it accordingly (which you already had for your muscle memory?)

So for Melee when you want these benefits, along with Light shielding which PM doesn't have yet: you can go with that OR what I currently have is a super old worn out controller that I use. Like PP mentioned mine has actually NO click at all now, it just triggers it without a sound. And the springs kinda weak I think too. Overall I wish it had some sort of perfect little spacer pushing the now invisible hard press further out (as constantly reaching down is still straining) though I don't want to mess with it at all since it's almost perfect already. I also just wish there was some semblance of a click left for accuracy; which did exist for it a year or two back. But I see that as the down-side to mods like the ones Kadano mentions: if you weaken it too much then anymore use can possibly lose the click entirely.

From the post:
http://youtu.be/tL3zzBMGPaY Lube + Hard press rubber weakening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwJ20lYS9bw&list=UU5kTkoEn9jKYDhQ0p2nz9IA#t=1359 Spring shorten + Hard press rubber weakening
http://smashboards.com/threads/any-...ler-modifications.335701/page-2#post-16168790 Inserting a spacer"

 

[Dr Peepee]

So as of recent, I've mainly been playing Falco, and I've got a few questions...

First, my playstyle is to attempt more lockdown/zoning compared to most Falcos I see. This seems more effective on bad characters, and against Fox/Falco (Shiek to a lesser extent) I feel like I'm forced to play more aggressive than I usually like. I use lots of Utilt as an anti-air, bair to zone (max of AC and SHFFL), and laser, but these tools seem less effective against the better characters. Is this playstyle just worse against these characters, or is it just harder, and I need more experience vs. them?

Second, is Downward-Angled F-Tilt considered a reliable way to cover a Firefox/Firebird to the ledge? In most videos I watch, players tend to go for the ledge less than in my local scene, and I'm assuming that is because it gets punished more often at high level play? What option is scaring spacies away from attempting the sweetspot?

I think a certain amount of walling is needed vs Fox but it's really hard. Marth and Sheik are far more zoning-based characters than Falco is so playing their game vs them would be pretty hard(and their moves are more likely to beat yours out, so that is something to keep in mind as well). If you want to lockdown vs those guys, you can do it but you'll have to do it while close to them so the lockdown forces them to make decisions. Essentially, you'll need to build some aggression in but then you can make your overall strategy work for you more probably. Top tier matchups are hard lol.

Down angled Ftilt only works if you're pretty close to the edge. You can also just WD to it and they die. So sometimes it isn't about what options work and what don't but it's more about not wanting to die. If you go up and get hit then you can live longer and maybe be in a better recovery position(if you watch Mango play, he sometimes makes choices that he knows will force him to take damage but not die when recovering. The risk/reward he believes is worthwhile).
So basically, it's partly psychological and partly in-game factors like Dsmash/Ftilt/WD/% stuff.

 

[m0ll0y]

I feel like im really stale when approaching sheik , and i overdue short hop nair,/dair , how can i become less predictable but still be able to start decent combos ?

 

[Stalled]

I feel like im really stale when approaching sheik , and i overdue short hop nair,/dair , how can i become less predictable but still be able to start decent combos ?

Lasers and dash dancing. I can't really write up a comprehensive list right now, but mix up your approaches. laser dtilt can be a thing, laser ftilt is great for poking, plus all the **** you can do out of a dd.

 

[SpiderMad]

Everyone give me $2 if PP gets 1st at Apex

pmdepot1@gmail.com > http://goo.gl/qhSrqW

@ Dr Peepee Where's the best peach and Luigi write up you have? You should make one in a EvilGenuis/MIOM post after you beat Armada at Apex. I called you winning the last one. Also I want to someday give you the signature challenge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256GP99HYLA

 

[Zeppeli]

@ Dr Peepee Congrats for winning APEX! :]
Really hype sets you had with Armada, man.

 

[Smoove-]

My reverse short hop lasers are not coming out how I'd like them to. I see PPMD doing them with such ease and at any height he wants, but mine rarely come out, all I get is the noise. When they do come out, however, they're really low and you obviously don't always want low lasers as they won't cover a short hop aerial. For the laser to shoot at around mid height, I feel like I have to delay my fast fall by so much, but it feels like I'm just an easier target to hit if I'm just in one spot waiting for too long, trying to get a good height for a reverse laser. I see PP fast falling the first chance he gets and still managing to reverse laser at the heights that he wants, then immediately go into a DD. What I want to know is if I'm doing anything wrong or is PP doing the same as me, delaying the FF a bit (and I'm just seeing things)?

 

[tauKhan]

Press b earlier to high lasers. You can ff asap, and still get very high laser by pressing b early. By ffing always asap your laser rate is highest, while you are still able to mix up the heights just fine.

 

[Jackson]

@ Dr Peepee amazing win at Apex! Congrats man, back to back Apex is amazing. Hope to see more from you this year.

 

[orvs]

grats for winning Apex @ Dr Peepee

also for everyone, another frame data question.
does anyone know how many frames it takes to grab the ledge as falco by doing a fast fall pc drop?

 

[Dr Peepee]

thanks for the love guys!

sorry about not really having too much bird out this time. he just wasn't up to the job. He'll be back much stronger in the coming months you can believe it =)

 

[Bones0]

thanks for the love guys!

sorry about not really having too much bird out this time. he just wasn't up to the job. He'll be back much stronger in the coming months you can believe it =)

I want to believe Falco can do it vs. Peach so badly, but...

 

[Alexander Duprey]

Here is a long smashfest wizzy streamed, I played on it a little throughout but I'm more interested in you guys looking at 3:20:00 and on, there I think I played pretty well, sans some technical mistakes. It's really hard as a newer player vs. really good players because they punish so hard, usually taking stocks; then I punish and only sometimes take stocks

http://www.twitch.tv/wizzzrobe/v/3721477

again, from 3:20:00 and on pls

 

[Dr Peepee]

I want to believe Falco can do it vs. Peach so badly, but...

dude he DEFINITELY can. don't judge the matchup based on that one game at all please I played so badly =(

I believe Falco beats Peach actually. I'll just have to tell you to be patient and I hope I can prove that sometime soon.

 

[pkblaze]

Are we gonna see you force Armada's Fox out for your Falco?

Speaking of Fox vs Falco, Zhu said in his recent AMA that he thinks it's falco's worst matchup and that fox wins. Do you have a detailed and recent writeup of the matchup, and if not, could you post one soon?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Are we gonna see you force Armada's Fox out for your Falco?

Speaking of Fox vs Falco, Zhu said in his recent AMA that he thinks it's falco's worst matchup and that fox wins. Do you have a detailed and recent writeup of the matchup, and if not, could you post one soon?

Imo its a even MU, depends on skill level and Stage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Are we gonna see you force Armada's Fox out for your Falco?

Speaking of Fox vs Falco, Zhu said in his recent AMA that he thinks it's falco's worst matchup and that fox wins. Do you have a detailed and recent writeup of the matchup, and if not, could you post one soon?

LOL who knows what's gonna happen man

I think fox/falco is even but it's evolving so much I have lots more work to do to be sure. I'll try to write that up sometime in a simple form since that matchup is getting ridiculously complicated lol.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

LOL who knows what's gonna happen man

I think fox/falco is even but it's evolving so much I have lots more work to do to be sure. I'll try to write that up sometime in a simple form since that matchup is getting ridiculously complicated lol.

I think (or maybe I just want this) that fox-falco neutral would be a great topic to stream about because literally every spacie main will tune in for your advice!

Great job at apex PP! The crew was doubting but I knew you had it!

 

[Jackson]

@ Dr Peepee , do you ever think that the metagame will advance enough that lasers will become unused as Falco? As in, people get good enough at powershielding and stuff like Marth's powershield-WD forward-Fsmash that would make it rough for Falco?

Just wondering how you feel about this; I was just thinking.

 

[Zhea]

@ Dr Peepee I remember awhile ago you talked about getting into a meditation habit after doing some reading on it. What book/books did you read on the subject?

Also stoked that Lombardi came back online for the end of set 1.

 

[miketyson]

the year is 2015 and people still act like they are going to find some way to get guaranteed shield breaks ****ing rofl 90% of smash boards could be answer as,"practice more" and, "ya that can be used as a mix up"

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

the year is 2015 and people still act like they are going to find some way to get guaranteed shield breaks ****ing rofl 90% of smash boards could be answer as,"practice more" and, "ya that can be used as a mix up"

I'm not included right?

 

[Zeppeli]

From what I saw at APEX, Falco can approach the matchup in 2 ways.

Mango's style involves spacing perfectly and avoiding hits while trying to graze Fox with aerials and other stuff. Then, he goes ham the moment he lands shine oos. PPMD's is far more control based and he situates his gameplan more so to lasers and approaches from that.

I don't have a good understanding of the matchup but it really looks to be becoming too complicated to manage ... especially with the number of distinct, possible styles of playing Fox out there.

--

PPMD, how was Armada's fox? As crazy as it looked on stream? And speaking of stream ... is yours finally coming soon? =]

 

[Purpletuce]

Lasers will never be bad, and power-shielding is decent, but never will come close to invalidating lasers.

 

[Zhea]

Speaking on that with the new Super power shield technique that was made public recently:

How does falco deal with with PS Lasers?
How can we abuse the fact that this newer, more consistent form of PS, requires the user to be holding A (losing access to tilts and jabs).

 

[pkblaze]

Well they can't tilt/jab us out of aerials. All they can do is move out of the way.

 

[tauKhan]

Speaking on that with the new Super power shield technique that was made public recently:

How does falco deal with with PS Lasers?
How can we abuse the fact that this newer, more consistent form of PS, requires the user to be holding A (losing access to tilts and jabs).

I don't think it's too hard to release a ones the falco comes close and be ready to use normal tricks.

Also falco has pretty good z-ps himself, maybe this will evolve into ps wars.

 

[keninblack]

Hey just a couple generic scrub questions I could use some help with.

-So I have comboing, pillaring, reading DI and converting off of hits down to a pretty alright degree. Its certainly what I am the most consistent with, that said... what are things and patterns I should learn to be more of a threat in the neutral? I pretty just approach with running ShL>nair/dair/>Shine etc etc, what laser patterns or approaches should I also learn so I don't become so obvious so quickly? Any other general good neutral tips would help too.

-They're above me on a platform, i'm Falco I wanna be above them how do I do that in the most efficient way? I pretty mush always just jump up dair on the platform but i'm certain better ways exist. I'm just wondering if Falco has an option that you pretty much just do EVERY TIME or something or if he has multiple tools that are way better than jump up dair. Waveland shine? Waveland grab? Stuff like that I just want to know whats the most efficient way to apply pressure from below going up to a platform.

-Lastly, how do I deal with pressure? Coming from a pretty serious FG background, no DP's or true reversals seem to be in this characters arsenal haha at least from what I can tell. What do I do about spacie/peach/etc pressure WHEN I am in it, anything I can do to get out? Or is like a MVC2/GG/SG kind of thing where "just don't put yourself into that situation"? I'm fine with that of course i'm just wondering!

TLDR
-How do I stop being so obvious in neutral with only one laser approach? Just need help with how to apply stronger neutral in general.

-How do I get to/hit someone in the most efficient way when I am below them and they're above me on a platform?

-What options do I have while I am stuck in pressure to get out? Or is my only option to simply NOT be put in that situation?

Thanks in advance.

Also what are good/not dated Falco guides to read/watch? I've just been watching the Falco hell trials and practicing that whenever I can anything else that would be worth looking into?

 

[pkblaze]

Laser and aerial, or laser and dashdance is the core neutral mixup of today's metagame for falco. From what I understand atleast.

when somebody's on a platform, SHFFL upairs work(maybe not on dreamland) spaced bair works(although I'd be ready to retreat to top platform if I were you) and shine waveland can start things. Shielding makes all this stuff kinda tricky though. if you have a lead and want to play lame, you can stand under the opposite side plat and just laser lol.

Pressure has holes in it. WD OOS and shine OOS are both good. Buffer roll is easier but more punishable if read.

 

[sadistic]

If they're in the air and you do it frame perfectly, is shine > bair a true combo on all characters?