PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[EZPZ]

If they're in the air and you do it frame perfectly, is shine > bair a true combo on all characters?

I have heard Westballz on his stream say that it is, but I don't know for a fact

 

[Purpletuce]

Regarding powershielding:

Powershielding only works if they can powershield your attack. If they aren't prepared for it, or if they miss. . . they won't get the powershield, and you just have an opponent who is getting locked down. So if they're not expecting you to laser, and they are trying to move/attack, then the laser still works fine. If your laser game is so strong, the only option they see is to only try to PS your laser, that is a win.

When they do get off the powershield, they don't really get a frame advantage off of it, so it resets to neutral in most situations. Laser is definitely a good tool in nuetral, and so is Falco in general, so it isn't a huge loss if they manage it, and you're not in range where they can punish you off of it. (If they PS a laser as you're approaching, you can get punished)

Be sure to noticed when the laser being reflected actually matters. Previously, I shot a good amount of low lasers (too low to powershield) if I thought they were trying it too much. Doing this height now produces lasers so low that you can easily SH over the reflected laser. (Provided you're at a spacing that you can SH in time, and won't be landing yet.)

There is also spacing too close for the PS to matter, since you can get an attack on them before you're hit with the laser/it goes behind you, or so far away that you're already above them(FH aerial).

 

[Bounce N Back]

So I have been struggling to pull off multishines with Falco and have also been running out of time to practice since college...Anyway I digress. Because of this I was messing around with JC grab out of shine to punishes people that shield my dair approach and It's so much easier for me to do. Been very consistent with it, but I really don't know how to follow up with any of his grabs afterwards. I'm sure it's relative on the character and percents, But I really couldn't find any useful information for this through some of the bigger threads on here. If someone could tell me how to follow up, either on floaties vs fast fallers, or if you really wanna be a pal and tell me optimal grabs + follow ups for the top 8 characters, I'd greatly appreciate it!

(PS I also was wondering how many pummels you can get with a character on another character. Not even necessarily just falco, but any character that has grabbed another character. I know it's relative to percents, but I was just wondering if there are records anywhere stating how many pummels will always be safe at any given percent. If someone could drop a link for that, that'd be cool too.)

:]

 

[SpiderMad]

thanks for the love guys!

sorry about not really having too much bird out this time. he just wasn't up to the job. He'll be back much stronger in the coming months you can believe it =)

How do you feel about Widescreen support? Shown in this video when they played on 20XX pack or something that supports it (though I don't know on what kind of TV?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGB1yg6Gj-Q
You're able to see off-stage more; so it's less of a guessing game. For better or worse. I think it's pretty game changing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hmmm that's interesting. that does take some fun out of edgeguarding for sure lol. won't affect falco toooo much just because his far away recovery is pretty poor.

 

[miketyson]

So I have been struggling to pull off multishines with Falco and have also been running out of time to practice since college...Anyway I digress. Because of this I was messing around with JC grab out of shine to punishes people that shield my dair approach and It's so much easier for me to do. Been very consistent with it, but I really don't know how to follow up with any of his grabs afterwards. I'm sure it's relative on the character and percents, But I really couldn't find any useful information for this through some of the bigger threads on here. If someone could tell me how to follow up, either on floaties vs fast fallers, or if you really wanna be a pal and tell me optimal grabs + follow ups for the top 8 characters, I'd greatly appreciate it!

(PS I also was wondering how many pummels you can get with a character on another character. Not even necessarily just falco, but any character that has grabbed another character. I know it's relative to percents, but I was just wondering if there are records anywhere stating how many pummels will always be safe at any given percent. If someone could drop a link for that, that'd be cool too.)

:]

Well pummels are alright, but I often go for the insta throw so that they probably wont DI and then sometimes you can hold them for a bit to make sure they DI (away most commonly) and use this knowledge against them. Like every question on smashboards the answer is to mix it up, there is no "best" thing to do all the time, however the most common used throw is up throw which can lead to shine etc. vs FF (although Ive seen mango do stuff like up throw nair regrab on fox on FD around 30% iirc, also zhu has a mini back throw "chaingrab" that will work vs almost every non top level spacie) vs floties most people up throw to fair/ any aerial, when near a ledge its usually good to throw them of, exmples being the rob$ ie, backthrow to f smash, or backthrow turn around jab/ f tilt/ what PP did to mango at sktar 3. Basically mix it up is the answer

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

When I shine dair for pressure I always get shield grabbed, how would I stop this? @ Dr Peepee

 

[Dr Peepee]

When I shine dair for pressure I always get shield grabbed, how would I stop this? @ Dr Peepee

dairs have to be done super late on shield to be safe. nair is better. spaced dairs beat grabs though =)

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

dairs have to be done super late on shield to be safe. nair is better. spaced dairs beat grabs though =)

It makes sense and sounds weird why late dair, Thanks once more PP!

 

[Level 10 Falco]

Hey guys!

I'm a project m falco main (I'd totally love to play melee, but sadly no one in my circle of friends wants to play melee, so I end up only touching it once in a blue moon; but I love watching it). Also I'd like to point out that I'm still somewhat of a casual, never been to a tourney before, so I hope I don't come off as a huge scrub here

Long story short, I recently learned good multishines in pm to unleash my inner falco and become extremely obnoxious... but I think I found a cool little (possibly useful?) tech with them that I found you can perform in melee too; so I want to talk about it with you guys here in the melee sub forum. I don't think it's worthy of its own thread though.

So, when I do multishines and I do an accidental late shine, the weird/cool thing that happens is that my late shine "snaps" to the platform actually somewhat reliably in melee (especially yoshi's) and very reliably in pm, which allows you to instantly (or quickly) snap to the ground to preform anything on the ground out of the shine. And I don't believe I've ever seen this done before?
Definitely could be wrong though.

So in pm, what I do is kind of treat the multishine like the dash dance mechanic (except with hitboxes) when your opponent is above you on a platform; so basically the opponent wont know when you will hit them because of the multishine guise, and how fast falco's jump is and the shine being 1 frame just adds to how much fun I have with it. I use it against my friends and I get a lot of weird looks and laughs, which is great. But again, these are just my friends, I'm curious how viable it is among competitive melee.

So yeah I booted up melee for the first time in a while to see if this works. So here's this somewhat consistent "shine snap" that I got: (ignore that I don't have video recording hardware and it's not a crt)

*Since I can't post links, just put this after youtube.com: /watch?v=LQRElSGZ_Bs&feature=youtu.be

I'm really stoked on the consistent grabs and the shine bair at 0:29 and the 2 shine dairs at the end. Although it looks like I may be able to do those 2 shine dairs quicker like that bair.

It's definitely more of a flashy thing, but I feel it may have some uses as a little mixup? What do you think?

Either way it's my favorite thing to do at the moment

 

[Stalled]

The shine snapping you to the platform is the same thing that happens when you multishine, your shine stops your vertical momentum and if you do it at a certain height (1st airborne frame or in certain heights on a platform) you'll float down during the first few frames of your shine and end up grounded. Generally, jump > shine > waveland is generally more reliable and somewhat safer due to not having to wait to land on the platform and there being no jumpsquat frames for your double jump.

Can't really comment on the multishine thing, but it sounds unsafe, but there are probably some situations in which its useful.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Hey guys!

I'm a project m falco main (I'd totally love to play melee, but sadly no one in my circle of friends wants to play melee, so I end up only touching it once in a blue moon; but I love watching it). Also I'd like to point out that I'm still somewhat of a casual, never been to a tourney before, so I hope I don't come off as a huge scrub here

Long story short, I recently learned good multishines in pm to unleash my inner falco and become extremely obnoxious... but I think I found a cool little (possibly useful?) tech with them that I found you can perform in melee too; so I want to talk about it with you guys here in the melee sub forum. I don't think it's worthy of its own thread though.

So, when I do multishines and I do an accidental late shine, the weird/cool thing that happens is that my late shine "snaps" to the platform actually somewhat reliably in melee (especially yoshi's) and very reliably in pm, which allows you to instantly (or quickly) snap to the ground to preform anything on the ground out of the shine. And I don't believe I've ever seen this done before?
Definitely could be wrong though.

So in pm, what I do is kind of treat the multishine like the dash dance mechanic (except with hitboxes) when your opponent is above you on a platform; so basically the opponent wont know when you will hit them because of the multishine guise, and how fast falco's jump is and the shine being 1 frame just adds to how much fun I have with it. I use it against my friends and I get a lot of weird looks and laughs, which is great. But again, these are just my friends, I'm curious how viable it is among competitive melee.

So yeah I booted up melee for the first time in a while to see if this works. So here's this somewhat consistent "shine snap" that I got: (ignore that I don't have video recording hardware and it's not a crt)

*Since I can't post links, just put this after youtube.com: /watch?v=LQRElSGZ_Bs&feature=youtu.be

I'm really stoked on the consistent grabs and the shine bair at 0:29 and the 2 shine dairs at the end. Although it looks like I may be able to do those 2 shine dairs quicker like that bair.

It's definitely more of a flashy thing, but I feel it may have some uses as a little mixup? What do you think?

Either way it's my favorite thing to do at the moment

Bit off topic but what's your Multishine record? Mines 20 atm

 

[Level 10 Falco]

@ Stalled

Yeahh that's how I figured the "shine snapping" worked. However what confused me is that I was kind of... somewhat consistent with it? Like, I thought getting onto the plat above would take a really precise input.

And about the delays, yeah definitely, in a few of them I felt a bit of a delay when I came down. However other times, I was able to continue with my multishine on the platform above which shows that there wasn't a delay and I was immediately grounded(?) and the bair I had seemed incredibly smooth. I'm just thinking that if I can get that in like 15 minutes, I wonder if it's possible for someone to get really good at it.

@ Pr0fessor Flash

Man that's pretty crazy haha

I just learned em recently and I've just tried them in melee for the first time today, so my record for melee would be in the video hahah, that would be 11 I believe? Then I had an accidental laser after it, woops
For PM it's also around that number too

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

@ Stalled

Yeahh that's how I figured the "shine snapping" worked. However what confused me is that I was kind of... somewhat consistent with it? Like, I thought getting onto the plat above would take a really precise input.

And about the delays, yeah definitely, in a few of them I felt a bit of a delay when I came down. However other times, I was able to continue with my multishine on the platform above which shows that there wasn't a delay (?) and the bair I had seemed incredibly smooth. I'm just thinking that if I can get that in like 15 minutes, I wonder if it's possible for someone to get really good at it.

@ Pr0fessor Flash

Man that's pretty crazy haha

I just learned em recently and I've just tried them in melee for the first time today, so my record for melee would be in the video hahah, that would be 11 I believe? Then I had an accidental laser after it, woops
For PM it's also around that number too

I'm halfway from Westballz's record (His is 40) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZIvREg2R2k

 

[miketyson]

Bit off topic but what's your Multishine record? Mines 20 atm

you can multi shine 20 times and yet you cant do late dair shield pressure? Would you rather be good at pressing buttons or actually good at the game vs an opponent? Depending on what your priorities are you should change the way you practice and what you practice
. . . . .
@ Dr Peepee I'm trying to practice wavedashing in and out of my shield in that sorta mango (and now armada) way. Normally I use the same button to shield and wavedash (L) but I was wondering what buttons you use or if it is worth learning how to wavedash out of shield with R

 

[Dr Peepee]

just use whatever is comfortable. I use L for everything.

 

[IdkLmao]

Dr Peepee

Edit- Nevermind question prob wasn't suited to be asked here.

 

[EZPZ]

Some of you may have already seen this/know about, but Westballz just explained why he counterpicks FD against Fox. Apparently Auto-Cancelled weak Bair is a guaranteed combo on Fox for awhile after he can start getting out of Pillars. Starts around 33:30
http://www.twitch.tv/westballz/b/620966436

The rest is worth a watch as well as he talks about comboing floaties a lot. I just had my world rocked by the weak bair knowledge

 

[HGF]

Some of you may have already seen this/know about, but Westballz just explained why he counterpicks FD against Fox. Apparently Auto-Cancelled weak Bair is a guaranteed combo on Fox for awhile after he can start getting out of Pillars. Starts around 33:30
http://www.twitch.tv/westballz/b/620966436

The rest is worth a watch as well as he talks about comboing floaties a lot. I just had my world rocked by the weak bair knowledge

Thanks for posting this man, this is really helpful and good to know.

 

[Zeppeli]

@ Dr Peepee

Heya PP! A few questions again, if I may!

Why do spacies tend to use high aerials (ie. fox's early nair) to approach? Is it just a mixup? Because I see tremendous risk in doing it when they can be cc-grabbed or shield grabbed or worse. Just taking a recent example - you CC shined armada's high nair in APEX finals at PS and got 40% or 60% off that one stray nair.

I can see the reason for doing it in place to temporarily protect yourself (though you'd also open yourself up to grabs right after) but not so much as an approach option - Maybe to beat some moves designed to stuff attacks like falco's AC bair, sheik's forward tilt, marth's tilts/fair or what not?

Another question is regarding falco getting out of the corner which you helped me with months back. What do you think about the necessity of mastering edge-cancelling off illusion with falco as the meta progresses?

For instance, when falco does a fading full hop nair while cornered by his opponent but times his illusion perfectly aligned to yoshi's top platform, enabling falco to cancel the lag and reach the top platform (where he has the option to drop down and laser, maybe hang by the side platforms, etc before finally reaching center stage again). I'm not sure if this is possible or possible to time consistently, but I could definitely see merit in falco obtaining more reliable and consistent ways outside the corner without rolling/double jumping which clearly exposes him to a bunch of risk.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee

Heya PP! A few questions again, if I may!

Why do spacies tend to use high aerials (ie. fox's early nair) to approach? Is it just a mixup? Because I see tremendous risk in doing it when they can be cc-grabbed or shield grabbed or worse. Just taking a recent example - you CC shined armada's high nair in APEX finals at PS and got 40% or 60% off that one stray nair.

I can see the reason for doing it in place to temporarily protect yourself (though you'd also open yourself up to grabs right after) but not so much as an approach option - Maybe to beat some moves designed to stuff attacks like falco's AC bair, sheik's forward tilt, marth's tilts/fair or what not?

Another question is regarding falco getting out of the corner which you helped me with months back. What do you think about the necessity of mastering edge-cancelling off illusion with falco as the meta progresses?

For instance, when falco does a fading full hop nair while cornered by his opponent but times his illusion perfectly aligned to yoshi's top platform, enabling falco to cancel the lag and reach the top platform (where he has the option to drop down and laser, maybe hang by the side platforms, etc before finally reaching center stage again). I'm not sure if this is possible or possible to time consistently, but I could definitely see merit in falco obtaining more reliable and consistent ways outside the corner without rolling/double jumping which clearly exposes him to a bunch of risk.

in fox vs falco, if fox does a high nair he can hit falco out of his laser attempt. it's dangerous mixup game up close lol.

mastering edge-canceling side B is definitely a good anti-corner strat on some stages more than others, some matchups more than others. having more solid tricks in your bag never hurts!

 

[Stalled]

@ Stalled

Yeahh that's how I figured the "shine snapping" worked. However what confused me is that I was kind of... somewhat consistent with it? Like, I thought getting onto the plat above would take a really precise input.

And about the delays, yeah definitely, in a few of them I felt a bit of a delay when I came down. However other times, I was able to continue with my multishine on the platform above which shows that there wasn't a delay and I was immediately grounded(?) and the bair I had seemed incredibly smooth. I'm just thinking that if I can get that in like 15 minutes, I wonder if it's possible for someone to get really good at it.

The frame delay probably varies on platforms, since you height you shine at can vary. At some heights you might land before you can jump cancel the shine, others it won't (I think). The fact that you could keep multishining just means that you input your jump after you were grounded. It's definitely possible to get really good at it, it's not really all that different than double shining input wise. As for the shine bair, you don't need a platform to do that, and a platform could actually be detrimental due to landing and jumpsquat (six or seven frames + slower vertical speed from grounded jump vs double jump)

 

[Bones0]

Regarding shine lands. I've been doing them for a while. I love how hyped GIMR is in this vid since he's the only person who even noticed what I did. lol

Regarding powershielding:

Powershielding only works if they can powershield your attack. If they aren't prepared for it, or if they miss. . . they won't get the powershield, and you just have an opponent who is getting locked down. So if they're not expecting you to laser, and they are trying to move/attack, then the laser still works fine. If your laser game is so strong, the only option they see is to only try to PS your laser, that is a win.

When they do get off the powershield, they don't really get a frame advantage off of it, so it resets to neutral in most situations. Laser is definitely a good tool in nuetral, and so is Falco in general, so it isn't a huge loss if they manage it, and you're not in range where they can punish you off of it. (If they PS a laser as you're approaching, you can get punished)

Be sure to noticed when the laser being reflected actually matters. Previously, I shot a good amount of low lasers (too low to powershield) if I thought they were trying it too much. Doing this height now produces lasers so low that you can easily SH over the reflected laser. (Provided you're at a spacing that you can SH in time, and won't be landing yet.)

There is also spacing too close for the PS to matter, since you can get an attack on them before you're hit with the laser/it goes behind you, or so far away that you're already above them(FH aerial).

You definitely get frame advantage from powershielding lasers because Falco then has to block or get hit by the laser himself. The closer you space your laser, the MORE dangerous PSing is. If you land right in front of them (close enough to shine/jab), you don't even have enough time to shield. If you land outside of that range and don't PS the reflected laser back, they can shield grab you.

 

[Stalled]

didn't even think about shinegrab, might have to do that.

 

[Level 10 Falco]

The frame delay probably varies on platforms, since you height you shine at can vary. At some heights you might land before you can jump cancel the shine, others it won't (I think). The fact that you could keep multishining just means that you input your jump after you were grounded. It's definitely possible to get really good at it

Yeah I found my rhythm in missed multishines matches great with the low plats at YS.
But yeah totally I can see it viable if you have the right rhythm for the low plats in other stages

As for the shine bair, you don't need a platform to do that, and a platform could actually be detrimental due to landing and jumpsquat (six or seven frames + slower vertical speed from grounded jump vs double jump)

My bad I was using short terms for that, when I talked about the 'shine bair' I mean the multishine > jump canceled shine (on ground) > jump canceled shine (in air) > jump canceled shine bair (from platform) at that part of my video
So I needed the platform to do my 3rd jump canceled shine

Obviously you don't need the jump canceled shine in the air, but if I do I have a really good consistency on being able to shine cancel into something on the platform while using my multishine as a disguise for when I will approach. I think it's pretty neat

Regarding shine lands. I've been doing them for a while. I love how hyped GIMR is in this vid since he's the only person who even noticed what I did. lol

Yeah dude! That's definitely what I was looking for, that's awesome!

didn't even think about shinegrab, might have to do that.

Well that's what I was going for in the beginning of my video I posted lol
did like 3 in a row I think

 

[Zhea]

From what I understand Falco's main tools to deal with PS:
1) Low lasers that he can (hopefully) jump over.
2) Empty or Fake Laser Short Hop
3) Buffering Rolls/Full Hops when the laser is reflected

Am I missing any important tools?

 

[Bounce N Back]

So I've seen the term auto cancelled aerials used time and time again but I don't exactly understand what it is, or why it was such a big discovery by Westballz on FD against fox. If someone could explain to me what that is and how to execute it, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[Boardwalk]

So I've seen the term auto cancelled aerials used time and time again but I don't exactly understand what it is, or why it was such a big discovery by Westballz on FD against fox. If someone could explain to me what that is and how to execute it, I'd greatly appreciate it.

if you short hop and immediately bair without fast falling, the animation is over before you hit the ground so you dont have to l cancel

 

[Zhea]

Auto-cancel just means the aerial ended before the character hit the ground. Some moves have special frames before and after their hit box that allow you to land with normal landing lag (4 frames) instead of the the aerial lag despite the animation still occurring. It's old as dirt.

 

[Bones0]

From what I understand Falco's main tools to deal with PS:
1) Low lasers that he can (hopefully) jump over.
2) Empty or Fake Laser Short Hop
3) Buffering Rolls/Full Hops when the laser is reflected

Am I missing any important tools?

Re-PSing is the best tool, and while not really a tool you should be trying to use, it doesn't hurt to get into the habit of dashing back after lasering so that you SDI any PSed lasers away from the opponent. It can make the difference between getting grabbed/hit and them whiffing and getting counterattacked.

 

[EZPZ]

So I've seen the term auto cancelled aerials used time and time again but I don't exactly understand what it is, or why it was such a big discovery by Westballz on FD against fox. If someone could explain to me what that is and how to execute it, I'd greatly appreciate it.

As others have explained, it's when you land after doing a move in either the first or last few frames of the animation and you suffer significantly less lag. This few frame window differs for every aerial in the game. It's significant because it causes even less lag than L-Cancelling and for Falco in particular if you immediately bair out of a short hop his short hop height and fall speed are perfect so they auto-auto-cancel the bair. Another popular example of this same thing happening is Marth's Short Hop Nair auto-cancelling itself.

If you go to the Falco Hitboxes and Frame Data Thread you'll notice every aerial has auto cancel frames listed. For consistency we'll look at his Back Air, under the frame data it says that the move can be auto cancelled "<3 23>". What this means is if you land either before the 3rd frame of the move or after the 23rd frame you will suffer no landing lag, and thus can immediately act out of it with an Up Tilt or whatever.


Westballz discovery was that even though Fox can get out of pillar combos after ~40% with proper di, an auto cancelled weak back air can still lead to guaranteed combos. This only works on FD because Fox would be able to escape using platforms on other maps, but on FD it's supposedly impossible to get out of with just DI.

I think that was a decent explanation lel but if it's still unclear just say so

 

[Zhea]

Re-PSing is the best tool, and while not really a tool you should be trying to use, it doesn't hurt to get into the habit of dashing back after lasering so that you SDI any PSed lasers away from the opponent. It can make the difference between getting grabbed/hit and them whiffing and getting counterattacked.

Cool Deal.

After playing around with that new power shield technique a bit I'm a lot more optimistic about Falco's laser game against it. It has a bit of SPD nuance to it. You have to already be holding A so you need to mask it with a normal or telegraph to the world by just jabbing in place. Also as long as you want access to it, you have access to nothing besides b moves. You can't grab, you can't use smash attacks(They charge until you release the A button) you can't tilt. I forgot to test A + Cstick aerials. It's almost an option select. Is Falco far away? If yes hold A. If he approaches with lasers, use ps. If not and he is now close enough to aerial, release a and use normal options. Did anyone else play around with it? What are your thoughts?

 

[trilok]

Cool Deal.

After playing around with that new power shield technique a bit I'm a lot more optimistic about Falco's laser game against it. It has a bit of SPD nuance to it. You have to already be holding A so you need to mask it with a normal or telegraph to the world by just jabbing in place. Also as long as you want access to it, you have access to nothing besides b moves. You can't grab, you can't use smash attacks(They charge until you release the A button) you can't tilt. I forgot to test A + Cstick aerials. It's almost an option select. Is Falco far away? If yes hold A. If he approaches with lasers, use ps. If not and he is now close enough to aerial, release a and use normal options. Did anyone else play around with it? What are your thoughts?

I just prefer normal powershielding. Maybe if I had a different grip, it would be better, but currently i feel too restricted and commital to having to powershield only from that grip. The trick is to hold A while in the animation of something else. like shl and you hold the A button after B. or wavedash/roll back hold a. I think its a bit more useful against samus missiles/charge blasts for the extra frames. I already have a spring removed, so it was easier for me to try pressing Z+trigger(Its probably best to use L for most people since it feels more natural than using Z+R with index and middle fingers).

Re powershielding close distance lasers may be impossible upon reaction, but you might predict it, but then you might lose the advantage of the laser hitting. I think it would have to depend on the opponent on how you approach it.

 

[Purpletuce]

I would say PSing puts them at a frame advantage because you have to deal with the laser just because you don't have to get hit/shield the laser.

 

[Bounce N Back]

As others have explained, it's when you land after doing a move in either the first or last few frames of the animation and you suffer significantly less lag. This few frame window differs for every aerial in the game. It's significant because it causes even less lag than L-Cancelling and for Falco in particular if you immediately bair out of a short hop his short hop height and fall speed are perfect so they auto-auto-cancel the bair. Another popular example of this same thing happening is Marth's Short Hop Nair auto-cancelling itself.

If you go to the Falco Hitboxes and Frame Data Thread you'll notice every aerial has auto cancel frames listed. For consistency we'll look at his Back Air, under the frame data it says that the move can be auto cancelled "<3 23>". What this means is if you land either before the 3rd frame of the move or after the 23rd frame you will suffer no landing lag, and thus can immediately act out of it with an Up Tilt or whatever.


Westballz discovery was that even though Fox can get out of pillar combos after ~40% with proper di, an auto cancelled weak back air can still lead to guaranteed combos. This only works on FD because Fox would be able to escape using platforms on other maps, but on FD it's supposedly impossible to get out of with just DI.

I think that was a decent explanation lel but if it's still unclear just say so

Thank you everyone for the info on this. Definitely liked this explanation best though, and I'll definitely try to feel out the timing on that. Don't have 20xx or anything like that available to me ftm, but his Bair has enough lag for it to be visible for me, so i'lll try to figure out the timing on it. Much obliged :]

 

[EZPZ]

The timing is just to bair as fast as possible out of your short hop

 

[Bones0]

Cool Deal.

After playing around with that new power shield technique a bit I'm a lot more optimistic about Falco's laser game against it. It has a bit of SPD nuance to it. You have to already be holding A so you need to mask it with a normal or telegraph to the world by just jabbing in place. Also as long as you want access to it, you have access to nothing besides b moves. You can't grab, you can't use smash attacks(They charge until you release the A button) you can't tilt. I forgot to test A + Cstick aerials. It's almost an option select. Is Falco far away? If yes hold A. If he approaches with lasers, use ps. If not and he is now close enough to aerial, release a and use normal options. Did anyone else play around with it? What are your thoughts?

You don't need to do a normal. I think the most common way it'll be used in the future is by pressing A during WD lag to set it up. There's virtually no downside to using it other than the added difficulty of having to hold A. The reason to not be super worried is that even if someone could do normal PS perfectly, you can just empty hop and they still have to shield on the off chance that you laser. The main utility of lasers these days is to slow your opponent's movement by making them shield or jump to avoid it. The threat of a laser alone forces them to do those actions unless they assume you will empty hop. Of course, if they assume you will empty hop and are wrong, they'll get hit by the laser and will be immediately put on the defensive.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What stages are good for the Luigi MU? @ Dr Peepee @ Bones0

 

[EZPZ]

Know you weren't asking me lol but I'd imagine Yoshi's is probably the best possible stage or Fountain. Limits his horizontal mobility and you can kill him off the top with shine pretty early.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Know you weren't asking me lol but I'd imagine Yoshi's is probably the best possible stage or Fountain. Limits his horizontal mobility and you can kill him off the top with shine pretty early.

Foutain is a maybe imo. The ceiling is pretty big but not as big as Dreamland though.