PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think I have any stage preferences vs Luigi really. Dreamland is kind of annoying to hit my combos on but that's true for him too. FD it's easier to lock him down but you die way easier. FoD it's kinda hard to laser I guess? I dunno the other levels seem fine to me it's more about knowing the matchup imo lol you can whup Luigi pretty much anywhere.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I don't think I have any stage preferences vs Luigi really. Dreamland is kind of annoying to hit my combos on but that's true for him too. FD it's easier to lock him down but you die way easier. FoD it's kinda hard to laser I guess? I dunno the other levels seem fine to me it's more about knowing the matchup imo lol you can whup Luigi pretty much anywhere.

Thanks PP

 

[Bones0]

Make sure you do a quick search in this thread first next time. This was one of the first results for "Luigi":

That said, here are the general pros and cons of each stage. If you are struggling in an aspect or able to abuse a weakness, you should select a stage that diminishes or enhances these effects. I think BF's two pros are very helpful for game 1 so you can feel out your opponent and get used to how he responds to different stuff.
(As a side note, I think this effect is actually why we see so much BF game 1 in general. It isn't always the best pick, but it's usually the safest whereas picking YS or DL might play to your opponent's style.)

YS
Pros: small blastzones; top plat allows escapes; attacks poke through side plats well (safe way to punish him falling back down w/o trading); minimal room for him to WD; easier to stay on top of him because he doesn't have room to slide away
Cons: cramped area gives him easier combo followups; top plat is more accessible than BF/DL; invul ledgedash covers a significant portion of the stage; side plats are easy for Luigi to SH aerial you through

FoD
Pros: small side blastzones; top plat allows escapes; minimal room for him to WD; easier to stay on top of him because he doesn't have room to slide away; low plats make shield pressure more viable/safer
Cons: high ceiling; low plats can allow him to aerial you from above as he comes down; plats can mess up laser game; top plat is more accessible than BF/DL; invul ledgedash covers a significant portion of the stage; lack of or low side plats hinders recovery

BF
Pros: highest top plat; length is flexible for both pressuring and lasering
Cons: no wall for recoveries; wide plats offers him more waveland aerial opportunities

DL
Pros: high top plat; wide stage; platforms spaced far apart (all conducive to heavy camping)
Cons: huge blastzones; difficult to extend combos and juggles; hard to pressure and trap

FD
Pros: lack of plats hinders his recovery; platform WLing cannot help him circumvent lasers/spaced aerials; easier to maintain juggles than on non-YS stages; harder to true combo
Cons: lack of plats hinders your recovery; lack of top plat restricts mobility; stronger punish game (tech chasing and no plats to land on)

PS
Pros: Luigi struggles traversing certain transformations; attacks poke through side plats well (safe way to punish him falling back down w/o trading)
Cons: good horizontal survivability; no top plat to retreat to; side plats are easy for Luigi to SH aerial you through

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What's a good way to practice Power Shields?

 

[Buildings]

What's a good way to practice Power Shields?

If you have the 20xx Hack Pack there's a toggle that gets fox or falco to do consistent SHL's (only single lasers in Fox's case) at what I believe to be is the fastest possible speed. So there's that. Alternatively just ask practice partners to be laser heavy when you play. Eventually you'll learn the timing based on how fast lasers are coming at you but you'll also learn how to do it on sight rather than based on a timing.

My brother got Alukard to just sit and spam lasers on him until he learned how to power shield on sight and now playing Falco against him is terrifying.

 

[SpiderMad]

in fox vs falco, if fox does a high nair he can hit falco out of his laser attempt. it's dangerous mixup game up close lol.

mastering edge-canceling side B is definitely a good anti-corner strat on some stages more than others, some matchups more than others. having more solid tricks in your bag never hurts!

Why did Mango use SHDL almost every time against Leffen at Apex? It's like he knows something I don't.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If it worked, then it's probably partly because of how long he waited before the SHDL(yes bones it is edgehop double laser but felt like using his term) and partly due to how high each laser was(and also where leffen was). If it didn't work, then obviously leffen adapted/the option was exploited.

Either way, Mango did more inefficient/ineffective stuff at Apex and he tends to overuse SHDL a bit anyway so take note of when it worked but don't praise it simply because Mango did it.

 

[Bones0]

You guys are talking about LHDL, right? lol

Mango actually did 2-3 (janky) ledgedashes at Apex. I couldn't believe my eyes. I guess he finally accepted LHDL will not cut it no matter how good he is at it. lol

@MaNg0

 

[SpiderMad]

If it worked, then it's probably partly because of how long he waited before the SHDL(yes bones it is edgehop double laser but felt like using his term) and partly due to how high each laser was(and also where leffen was). If it didn't work, then obviously leffen adapted/the option was exploited.

Either way, Mango did more inefficient/ineffective stuff at Apex and he tends to overuse SHDL a bit anyway so take note of when it worked but don't praise it simply because Mango did it.

Oops yeah LHDL

I remember you saying in the past you needed to take more advantage of Mango doing LHDL too often and not punishing him hard enough. Like Bones mentioned the fact that he did it so repeatedly vs Leffen to get punished confused me as to if he just had a bad habit that people don't punish enough of him using LHDL all the time: or that he believes LHDL can be used in so many different timings that it's still the best ledge move he just chose the wrong timings or something. Then he went for higher ones to land on the platform on Yoshis.

Another thing I noticed a lot in the Leffen match was Mango kept a kind of slow pace, and seemed to focus his best on reacting to hits to get crazy SDI.

Oh and one thing I wanted to mention was Armada throughout his Fox games would do drop down shine DJ Up-b ledge stalls. And I thought Ledge release Up-b regrab was said to be faster. Anyways, it ended up costing him the tournament when you D-tilted him at the end. I'm guessing you knew he'd do it.

Has your controller's hard press clicks ever gotten weak to the point you can't really hear or feel them?

Have your controller's control stick rubber ever been peeled off or anything by your play? Or your style always keeps it in normal shape?

Do you use Double Stick DI at all?

Do you do Save state practice in 20XX Hack at all or was that just Cactuar's and you don't have it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6joJua0Wv-c

You better have a 60fps hand cam when you start streaming. As well as knowing how to use Debug menu's frame advance. Those two things will set you way ahead of the lesson stream competition. Then you gotta invite me over Skype or something to ask you controller preference questions.

Some of you may have already seen this/know about, but Westballz just explained why he counterpicks FD against Fox. Apparently Auto-Cancelled weak Bair is a guaranteed combo on Fox for awhile after he can start getting out of Pillars. Starts around 33:30
http://www.twitch.tv/westballz/b/620966436

The rest is worth a watch as well as he talks about comboing floaties a lot. I just had my world rocked by the weak bair knowledge

I watched the two hours of it (besides the audio cut part) until he played matches.

Apparently running then shielding and jumping gives you longer distance? @ Bones0 Is that a real thing?

He went over how to MW like 4 times, but didn't say how to get it to delay the most (sticky-walk) before you WL.

He also needs to go over more about his shield drop pivot shenanigans he and Axe do on platforms.

His combo floaties stuff was good.

I still don't understand why he multi-shines so much. Maybe he's just keeping his fingers fast for his X to B lasers and stuff. Everything seems to just lead to his Double Shine WD down thing being supposedly better anyways, which I haven't mastered yet (and like most people I'm confused when I should do that over going for just Shine-grab; though I'm slowly discovering the reasons myself in 20XX Pack)

And can't we also get good at Z-PS to Z-PS our lasers back after they Z-PS our lasers? All this powershield stuff though seems to require modifying our springs to either be shorter or removed completely to be done more easily. Do any of you plan on modifying?

Also I watched this, DaShizWiz giving basic stuff; overall he did a bad job of conveying the topics.
http://www.twitch.tv/dswbronson/b/622390089
He uses Tap Jump for LHDL; I hate the crap out of it for the very reason you can see him messing it up into Up-b's half the time. I use Y for it like I do Multi-shining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAMoJ8ZpvjE
Otherwise I once in a while think of experimenting with Mango's method of temporarily bringing his Index up to hit Y but it wouldn't be much faster already.

 

[Berble]

How many different heights are there of unpowershieldable lasers? Is it realistically consistent enough to use without ever having to worry about your laser being powershielded?

 

[SpiderMad]

How many different heights are there of unpowershieldable lasers? Is it realistically consistent enough to use without ever having to worry about your laser being powershielded?

Kadano has posts on that in his Marth section; though he said soon he's gonna compile an even bigger thread on stuff.
http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/

 

[dfrogman]

Also I watched this, DaShizWiz giving basic stuff; overall he did a bad job of conveying the topics

did he go over how to get away with assaulting ex girlfriends too or was there not enough time

 

[Stalled]

did he go over how to get away with assaulting ex girlfriends too or was there not enough time

Is this really the place for this? Also rude as ****.

 

[tauKhan]

Oh and one thing I wanted to mention was Armada throughout his Fox games would do drop down shine DJ Up-b ledge stalls. And I thought Ledge release Up-b regrab was said to be faster.

No, because of the disabled ledgegrab period, you can't grab the edge before 30th frame counting drop frame as 1 anyway, so you have 13 frames you can use however you want before doing upb and you can still get the ledgegrab frame 30. I think it's easier to be safer dropping down, because it's easy to do the upb too high if you do it right away. But the stall has to be frame perfect to be intangible anyway, so it's never completely safe. You can also avoid putting out the upb hitboxes by dropping and doing the upb late.

Apparently running then shielding and jumping gives you longer distance? @ Bones0 Is that a real thing?

Umm no, you just lose speed to traction on shielding frames.

And can't we also get good at Z-PS to Z-PS our lasers back after they Z-PS our lasers?

Having practiced z-ps a little bit, I would say so. It's easy to hold a after your laser input to z-ps between your lasers.

 

[dfrogman]

Is this really the place for this? Also rude as ****.

sry :x maybe my joke would have went over better if i had also asked ppmd (SPECIFICALLY, not "the falco subforum in general" natch) some question that hes answered before three times in my post. would that have been ontopic enuff 4 u?

 

[sadistic]

sry :x maybe my joke would have went over better if i had also asked ppmd (SPECIFICALLY, not "the falco subforum in general" natch) some question that hes answered before three times in my post. would that have been ontopic enuff 4 u?

Not really. That's not something to "joke" about either. Post something like that in a reddit ama or personal message if you like, but it's obviously out of place here.

 

[SpiderMad]

No, because of the disabled ledgegrab period, you can't grab the edge before 30th frame counting drop frame as 1 anyway, so you have 13 frames you can use however you want before doing upb and you can still get the ledgegrab frame 30. I think it's easier to be safer dropping down, because it's easy to do the upb too high if you do it right away. But the stall has to be frame perfect to be intangible anyway, so it's never completely safe. You can also avoid putting out the upb hitboxes by dropping and doing the upb late.


Umm no, you just lose speed to traction on shielding frames.

So it can be completely safe, if you did it frame perfect: which Armada didn't. I guess I should switch my method to dropping down.

And he talks about the increased distance at... ugh I hate twitch @ EZPZ do you remember?
Nevermind, 15:16 : double check this isn't real.. apparently more so with Fox

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Whats a good way to avoid a chain of Up Tilts on a platform after a Up Throw?

 

[tauKhan]

Whats a good way to avoid a chain of Up Tilts on a platform after a Up Throw?

If you are talking about marth, you can often DSDI to hit the ground and slide off the edge to cancel hitstun if you guess which direction he will uptilt you. The correct di is combo di slightly down and away with control stick and full down on c-stick.

 

[Wang Sheng]

Looking for some clarification as to why when I shine there is sometimes a weird popoff where the opponent gets no hitstun and can instantly ariel or air dodge, one source told me it was the stack whilst another said it was a random glitch that occurs with moves that send people upwards? Is there any way to avoid this as it means I can rarely get a follow up off my shine when it happens.

 

[tauKhan]

@ W Wang Sheng It's a mechanic that's related to DownBound (missed tech animation) and also allows jab resets. Basically if you hit a char in missed tech animation with low damage move that sends the opponent in to the air, the victim gets out of hitstun after 12 frames. To avoid this happening, you must hit the opponent before he lands or your shine must be relatively unstaled.

Detailed explanation: If you get hit by a move that does less than 7,00% damage (Staling included) while in the missed tech animation or lying in the ground after missed tech, you are put into 12 frames long DownDamage animation. If you are still in the air after that animation (Basically always after shine) you go to normal fall animation and remaining hitstun gets cancelled. If you land during the 12 frames, you are forced to do a get up action as soon as your hitstun ends (jab reset). Additionally if the stun is lower than 12 frames you'll be forced to do getup stand.

Falco's shine does less than 7,00% after the stale coefficient is 0,87 or smaller, which basically means that you have hit with shine at least twice recently.

Additional fun fact: Because dying off the top is not at all dependent on being in hitstun, but the remaining kb vector determines it instead, it's actually possible to kill yourself off the top by jumping out of this "failed shine reset" phenomenom.

 

[Wang Sheng]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up

 

[EZPZ]

So I played a couple hours of friendlies today as Falco for the first time since learning the Z-PS technique, and honestly I did get a couple on lasers he had PSd back at me. If you are anticipating a powershield and just hold A as you laser, then dash back if you need to, I definitely think Z-PSing a PSd laser is a plausible option.

 

[flaw]

I'm not trying to be purposefully negative.

I'm not sure how plausible it is, really. If marth is trying to do a running ps->grab on you, how are you supposed to react to this? The running laser PS->grab is the most dangerous PS to Falco, and ZPS could turn this traditionally risky option into a very reliable one. I think faking lasers is going to become a lot more important than it already was if ZPS is as OP as some think it is (westballz).

 

[Eranthe]

hey guys, really sorry if this is the wrong thread but i've noticed one of mang0's most trusted edgeguards is a back air near platform height directly from ledge, but i really have no idea how to do it. can anyone give me some advice on it? i'm linking a video of what i'm talking about.

 

[EZPZ]

Yeah you just drop off the ledge by either flicking the control stick away or down, then immediately use your double jump and back air.

 

[tauKhan]

@ flaw you don't have to react, you can actually option select z-ps and do something else or continue shooting lasers if the opponent didn't ps your laser.

 

[Eranthe]

Yeah you just drop off the ledge by either flicking the control stick away or down, then immediately use your double jump and back air.

and landing back on the platform? or did he get knocked back onto the platform by the force of the back air against fox? i can only seem to recover by using up b from below the ledge.

 

[flaw]

@ flaw you don't have to react, you can actually option select z-ps and do something else or continue shooting lasers if the opponent didn't ps your laser.

I see that you can still do something OoS, but you lose a lot of options this way

 

[EZPZ]

and landing back on the platform? or did he get knocked back onto the platform by the force of the back air against fox? i can only seem to recover by using up b from below the ledge.

If you do the double jump back air fast enough you should be able to just drift back on stag like that with the control stick.

It is actually possible to back air farther up and away from the stage and drift back so you regrab the ledge as well

 

[Bones0]

@ W Wang Sheng It's a mechanic that's related to DownBound (missed tech animation) and also allows jab resets. Basically if you hit a char in missed tech animation with low damage move that sends the opponent in to the air, the victim gets out of hitstun after 12 frames. To avoid this happening, you must hit the opponent before he lands or your shine must be relatively unstaled.

Detailed explanation: If you get hit by a move that does less than 7,00% damage (Staling included) while in the missed tech animation or lying in the ground after missed tech, you are put into 12 frames long DownDamage animation. If you are still in the air after that animation (Basically always after shine) you go to normal fall animation and remaining hitstun gets cancelled. If you land during the 12 frames, you are forced to do a get up action as soon as your hitstun ends (jab reset). Additionally if the stun is lower than 12 frames you'll be forced to do getup stand.

Falco's shine does less than 7,00% after the stale coefficient is 0,87 or smaller, which basically means that you have hit with shine at least twice recently.

Additional fun fact: Because dying off the top is not at all dependent on being in hitstun, but the remaining kb vector determines it instead, it's actually possible to kill yourself off the top by jumping out of this "failed shine reset" phenomenom.

Do you know what the window is to be able to spike people during the ground bounce of a missed tech and have them go upwards? It might vary by character though, idk. I have only ever heard Scar mention it once.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Bones0 I don't know the exact window, but at least after frame 20 or so the char is definitely grounded, could also be before that or even during the whole animation. Tumble kb is required though.

 

[AirFair]

How do I deal with a campy Jigglypuff who punishes aerial approaches?

 

[Purpletuce]

I thought you were PP asking a question, and I was concerned.

 

[AirFair]

Sorry lol I just like Kingdom Hearts. But yea campy jiggs? I she evades lasers on platforms and then when I try and go in with dair or nair, I get punished with some aerial.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Whats a good way to practice mixing up your techs because I have a problem be predictable which is bad vs Falcon, Ganon and other characters @ Dr Peepee @ Bones0

 

[EZPZ]

Whats a good way to practice mixing up your techs because I have a problem be predictable which is bad vs Falcon, Ganon and other characters @ Dr Peepee @ Bones0

Well I mean you could always try the Mang0 and just spin your control stick in circles while teching so even you won't know for sure which way you'll tech. You just have to be confident you can react fast enough.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Well I mean you could always try the Mang0 and just spin your control stick in circles while teching so even you won't know for sure which way you'll tech. You just have to be confident you can react fast enough.

I forgot Mango does that lol thanks

 

[AirFair]

Yo I want to money match one of my Falco buddies but I'm not feeling too confident on the ditto lol. Advice?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Yo I want to money match one of my Falco buddies but I'm not feeling too confident on the ditto lol. Advice?

Get the first laser, if your opponent lasers firsr just use your shine to refect the laser and that will help you get momentum. Getting good combos will help too