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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

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Bones, do you live here? :grin:

I will keep this short and simple: A Falco with good lasers is a scary Falco. How do I avoid, approach and maneuver vs Falco's lasers?

Thanks!
lol I guess.

Get used to acting after lasers hit your shield or body. They have almost the same amount of stun (maybe 1 frame difference) so as long as they don't land next to you with the laser (within ftilt range), you can simply get out of the way of their attack or intercept with an attack of your own. These are the ones I use most:
- FH OoS or after being hit (just hold shield and buffer with the C-stick; make sure they aren't close enough to aerial your ascent)
- WD back OoS
- dair OoS
- bair OoS (if they laser you as you dash back)
- take laser turnaround utilt (this one is pretty hard).

Calibrate your options based on stage positioning, distance between you and the opponent, and what percents each of you are at. Obviously the aerials OoS and utilt are prone to trading, so if you are at 150%, you'll want to do more FHing, WDing back, or of course holding shield (obviously not a great position, but it's better than letting them always laser -> SHFFL you into oblivion).
 

Berble

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Is there any good way to practice powershielding Falco's lasers? Also, do you have to fully press L/R when powershielding or can you just light press it? Thanks
 

Twinkles

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Is there any good way to practice powershielding Falco's lasers? Also, do you have to fully press L/R when powershielding or can you just light press it? Thanks
20xx hack training pack or have someone shoot lasers at you
you must fully press to get the powershield
 

KingDozie

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Mango's falco in Whobo was amazing and i recommend it if you want to find new ideas for falco.
 

Tityboi

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When landing on a platform after a laser, I see a lot of falcos just Isai dropping, but couldn't you also shield drop. I know shield dropping is like two frames faster albeit harder. Also would sorta combining the two by doing a dashing shield drop be faster? I find this easier than a normal shield drop, and you can turn around when doing the dashing shield drop.
 

Bones0

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When landing on a platform after a laser, I see a lot of falcos just Isai dropping, but couldn't you also shield drop. I know shield dropping is like two frames faster albeit harder. Also would sorta combining the two by doing a dashing shield drop be faster? I find this easier than a normal shield drop, and you can turn around when doing the dashing shield drop.
It's pretty hard for me to consistently shield drop lasers from the side plats of non-Dream Land stages, but I also haven't put in a ton of work trying to use it. Even DL is kind of hard, and there is a significant risk of side-Bing off. Ultimately, it doesn't seem worth a measly 2 (or however many) frames, especially since it seems possible to laser -> Isai drop -> laser quickly enough for both lasers to connect anyways.

Adding in a dash before shield dropping doesn't make it faster. You simply waste frames dashing.
 

Tityboi

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It's pretty hard for me to consistently shield drop lasers from the side plats of non-Dream Land stages, but I also haven't put in a ton of work trying to use it. Even DL is kind of hard, and there is a significant risk of side-Bing off. Ultimately, it doesn't seem worth a measly 2 (or however many) frames, especially since it seems possible to laser -> Isai drop -> laser quickly enough for both lasers to connect anyways.

Adding in a dash before shield dropping doesn't make it faster. You simply waste frames dashing.
This may be super nooby, but how are DL's platforms different? Besides like height and what not.
 
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Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Well, the thing is that no Falco throws lead into true combos on anyone, so basically you're just looking for janky setups and stage positioning with Falco throws. Closest thing to real combos are off of uthrow, (typically into Fair on floatier characters, or bair/nair/uair on fast fallers), but your opponent has a lot of options to mess those up with DI or just fast aerials off of the lasers).
 

Bones0

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Well, the thing is that no Falco throws lead into true combos on anyone, so basically you're just looking for janky setups and stage positioning with Falco throws. Closest thing to real combos are off of uthrow, (typically into Fair on floatier characters, or bair/nair/uair on fast fallers), but your opponent has a lot of options to mess those up with DI or just fast aerials off of the lasers).
This is absolutely false. Falco has throws that lead into true combos, they are just DI dependent (both on the throw and on the laser). Bthrow is really underused because no one experiments with it. There are more scenarios than you'd think where you can bthrow into DA, fsmash, ftilt, or even fsmash. Then you have fthrow which isn't technically a combo, but if they are a FFer in knockdown percents, you can cover all of their tech options in certain situations.

I think Falco's throw game is really undervalued because of how bnb uthrow has become. Falcos almost always uthrow unless they are at the edge and fthrow. Dthrow is a big wild card with techchasing, but it is definitely useful vs. Fox since he doesn't fall over.


On an unrelated note, I got 5th at Shell Shocked. Could've had 4th if I just played a little better. So frustrating, but overall I played well.
 
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JDavisR (NIX)

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Hi, I play falco (lol obviously), and one of my biggest problems is approaching then getting shield grabbed. It happens time after time again and I really have no idea how to stop it. Can anyone give advice on this please, any help is appreciated.
 

JDavisR (NIX)

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You'd probably win that bet. I see, so you're saying I should delay the nair/bair/dair so that I can shine before they can grab me? That makes sense
 
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Xyzz

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it's a pretty unfair bet, almost like something based on a scientific principle most people don't know about (e.g. try folding a standard piece of paper 9 times in the middle) :D
If you expect them to shield, yes, you want to input the aerial, and then the fast fall in a way that in the best case your aerial will come out just as you land. Of course this opens you up to a lot of vulnerability where you are just jumping at them without any hitboxes to protect you. So if you expect them to think that you're going to do a late aerial, you'll have to mix it up yourself and go for something to counter their counter (e.g. just don't jump at them and instead punish the ending lag of their move (or just claim some stage if they used a safe'ish poke which won't allow a direct punish)).
 

Xyzz

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It's not hard to win off a single thing. However, it relies on your opponent being bad at dealing with it. (E.g. until people get somewhat decent I can win without throwing any move but fsmash) ;)
 

JDavisR (NIX)

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So true, my friend lost to a guy who just spammed foward smash with fox, which knocked him out of the tournament. It was his worst lost ever, and I still bug him about it lol even though it was like 6 months ago
 

Renth

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Hello Falcos.

I've been playing this game an awfully long time and I still never have felt comfortable in the match up of Ganondorf vs. Falco.

Any snark remarks such as "lol Ganondorf sucks" "Play another character" "It's unwinnable don't bother" Will be written off and you will be put in the category of random internet ******. That being said...

I played a lot with DaShizWiz while I was living in Lehigh Acres Florida, I am now in Gainesville. Even with top level Falco experience I still feel like I am missing something that is right in front of me.

Obvious things like do not shield grab, do not let him control the pace of the match and watch for technical errors for easy punishes because most players try to do more things than they are capable of I am very aware of. Either way let me get to the point, I recorded some matches vs. a local Falco.

Tell me your hates and likes about the match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LselItmi4Ww&feature=youtu.be

please and thank you
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Really not sure what you're looking for here Renth.

The matchup is pretty horrendous from everything I've seen/experienced and while I know that's not what you're looking to hear, I've never felt like I've lost to a Ganon without making a bunch of mistakes or being drastically outclassed as a player.

The only things I see in that video that are obvious are that you shouldn't aerial down B him off a usmash when you could fair him, and you should probably full hop and look for stray hits (either off of the full hop or after DJing) vs. laser spam on DL/FD) every once in awhile rather than staying low with shorthops where all his lasers are still stifling you.
 

Xyzz

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"lol Ganondorf sucks" is a pretty valid point in the matchup, "play another character" obviously is not. You are playing from behind, and you better accept it instead of trying to act as if you were on equal footing. Not quite sure whether you're doing it because he's letting you have it, or you do it in general: You're trying to close the distance while staying grounded a lot of the time. If Falco really wants to, I think his laser game can stop this approach pretty completely (you're not Yoshi, you can act out of shiel, so the chance for a miracle is there. On the other hand your jump is really slow, so the chance isn't too high).
I personally think fj/dj mixups are too limiting in terms of where Ganon can choose to move to, so I would suggest working with platforms a lot (like almost exclusively when you're not already in his face being a mean bully ;) ). This is pretty key for "not letting him control the pace of the match", imho. If you are working with the ground you're always subject to him placing lasers in your landing zone and positioning himself to threaten you from there. If you are on a platform, he can't quite shoot a laser and be (reasonably) close behind to threaten something that forces you to commit to something, which he can punish.
 

Bones0

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Hello Falcos.

I've been playing this game an awfully long time and I still never have felt comfortable in the match up of Ganondorf vs. Falco.

Any snark remarks such as "lol Ganondorf sucks" "Play another character" "It's unwinnable don't bother" Will be written off and you will be put in the category of random internet ******. That being said...

I played a lot with DaShizWiz while I was living in Lehigh Acres Florida, I am now in Gainesville. Even with top level Falco experience I still feel like I am missing something that is right in front of me.

Obvious things like do not shield grab, do not let him control the pace of the match and watch for technical errors for easy punishes because most players try to do more things than they are capable of I am very aware of. Either way let me get to the point, I recorded some matches vs. a local Falco.

Tell me your hates and likes about the match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LselItmi4Ww&feature=youtu.be

please and thank you
0:20 - You could have finished that edgeguard with bair instead of uair. You were probably worried about covering the edge, but you should be able to cover the different Phantasm heights with different moves on reaction. It's definitely hard, but also definitely possible to do consistently.

0:45 - This Falco (like most) seems fairly aggressive because it's beneficial to stay on top of Ganon. Despite this, you seemed overly eager to jump up and bair him off the top plat. If you think he's likely to drop down with an aerial, you should just drift down yourself and punish his landing.

0:48 - When you miss a tech on a plat and they don't have time to hit you before choosing a tech option, you should really focus on the GUA mixup. If you GUA and they try to just hit you, they obviously get hit. If they try to bait the GUA or roll first, then regular getup is usually your best bet and pretty hard to react to.

0:52 - I'm no Ganon expert, but I think you could have reverse jabbed him off stage. Either way, you had the read so you just mistimed the second dair.

1:08 - Idk if you just missed the input, but you could have easily SH baired after that ledgedash and let Falco run into it. Once Falco is off stage in this matchup it's GG so you really want to focus on those opportunities.

1:35 - I would almost always expect techroll in because even if you're wrong, you've got Falco pinned at the ledge. I think you could have just jumped in between TIP and techroll left and covered them with a bair or fair on reaction. If he avoids those, it means he's super cornered and you could potentially WL on reaction to close off his options even more.

1:48 - Obviously you got the edgeguard anyway, but you easily could have LA ftilted him out of that Phantasm.

1:55 - You might not have had time, but just in case, you should jab after whiffing a fair like that.

2:12 - Just rolling obv would have worked, but if you really can't tell, at least GUA.

6:30 - This Falco always comes off the top plat with an attack, so you should have been expecting that WL dair. If you can get a read on these kinds of things, you can definitely just DD grab him. M2K does it with Sheik and Marth non stop, and obviously it will be harder with Ganon, but definitely doable.

7:00 - You got the first hug out of all the games, so I definitely think you should be going for it more often. The alternative is keep trying to sweetspot and keep getting hit with the easiest edgeguard dair in the world.

7:25 - After whiffing a grab like that, you should expect a dodge or at least wait a second to confirm he will hold shield. It's pretty rare for people to hold shield for a split second after messing up and then dodge. They will usually either hold shield expecting an attack or dodge immediately. I also am not sure why you jumped after he rolled behind you, but I think WDing towards center or immediately SH bairing to zone him would be way better options. If nothing else, watch your DI since there's no way Ganon should die at that percent getting hit across the stage.


Overall, you definitely show solid gameplay. I think you have a really bad tendency of biting off more than you can chew. In that last example, you whiffed the grab but instead of cutting your losses and seeking stage control, you double downed by going for another grab that is way riskier and is entirely a hard read. You did something earlier where you uaired him on the top plat, but instead of seeing how he would react to being tapped, you immediately went for a second uair. These situations are causing you to miss opportunities because you didn't fully capitalize on the first strategy and are slow to let go and react to the new situation. The last thing I would point out is related, but you do a lot of aerials that are simply nowhere near the opponent or very unlikely to hit or very unlikely to help you even if they do hit. The 3 reasons to aerial are to hit the opponent, hit the opponent's shield, or zone to protect yourself. If you notice that an aerial didn't do any one of those, then you should just remove it from your game and replace it with something more constructive, whether that be an extra bait with an emptyland/WL or simply staying on the ground and moving that way.

I think if you optimize your tech chases, edgeguarding, and do aerials with more intent you will see much better results vs. Falco. Ganon struggles a lot vs. Falco, but mainly because Ganon's opportunities are much harder to capitalize on. Kage vs. Westballz from Evo should be plenty of evidence that the matchup is not free for Falco as long as the Ganon is playing on point. When Ganon is playing on point, Falco actually has to play even more on point to keep up. Hopefully this helped, and good luck. Maybe we will get to play at a tourney in the near future since you are in PA.
 

Bones0

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My Shell Shocked vids are up. :awesome:

[collapse=Bones (Falco) vs. Lock (Samus)]
[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Falco) vs. Boss (Fox, Dr. Mario)]
[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Falco) vs. ThumbsWayUp (Captain Falcon)]
[/collapse]
[collapse=Teams]
[/collapse]
 
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Bones0

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I've been meaning to figure this out: What the hell is with falco's down throw on fox? Why does that happen?
Idk the specifics, but it's a combined result of his high gravity and low weight. It doesn't happen in PAL, but I can't remember if Fox is lighter or if they changed the throw mechanics specifically for Fox.
 

Goodin

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What is the proper way to do a late nair/dair on shield? it seems like good players use the nair as soon as they jump, but space it so that they hit the shield after the peak of the short hop then fast fall > shine. As for dair , I suppose u physically press the button later? Im trying to figure out how to make my aerials hit the shield in a way which the shine can come out during or before the opponents shield grab.

Also, in a typical shine > dair combo against fox, or any character, when is it best to use up tilts instead of shine. I feel like though my shine combo game is fairly solid, up tilts would add a whole new realm of fluidity to my combos, but as of now i haven't used them much because i am ignorant as to when they should be used.
 
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Bones0

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What is the proper way to do a late nair/dair on shield? it seems like good players use the nair as soon as they jump, but space it so that they hit the shield after the peak of the short hop then fast fall > shine. As for dair , I suppose u physically press the button later? Im trying to figure out how to make my aerials hit the shield in a way which the shine can come out during or before the opponents shield grab.

Also, in a typical shine > dair combo against fox, or any character, when is it best to use up tilts instead of shine. I feel like though my shine combo game is fairly solid, up tilts would add a whole new realm of fluidity to my combos, but as of now i haven't used them much because i am ignorant as to when they should be used.
1. Third post on page 536.

2. You usually don't want to shine if the opponent gets knocked down because if your shine is staled a bit, the opponent will float out of your followup attempt without stun. Outside of that, it's really situational. I like to use utilt towards the end of combos on FFers because I can just keep utilting until they DI away or I decide to fsmash (or both). On floatier characters like Marth and Sheik, utilt often combos better and is easier to follow up. This is especially true for super floaties like Puff, Peach, Samus, and Luigi who don't even have to DI your shine at certain percents to avoid getting comboed into uair.
 

Goodin

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Goodin
So im having some trouble closing stocks vs luigi on some of the larger stages such as dreamland and FD. I do fine vs a local luigi until it comes to finishing the stock. What are ways i can edgegaurd him when he is using the side B to approach as well as preventing him from getting on the ledge. In a typical scenario, the stock is about even until I die at 70% and he lives till 140%.

Also any other match up quirks i should know
 

KingDozie

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Can anyone help me with the falco dittos its really annoying because it feels like who ever pressure the most aka shines,lasers and dairs win?
 

Bones0

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So im having some trouble closing stocks vs luigi on some of the larger stages such as dreamland and FD. I do fine vs a local luigi until it comes to finishing the stock. What are ways i can edgegaurd him when he is using the side B to approach as well as preventing him from getting on the ledge. In a typical scenario, the stock is about even until I die at 70% and he lives till 140%.

Also any other match up quirks i should know
It's really just all about dairing them. Luigi's recovery is super prone to jump out DJ dairs, so just practice jumping out there and intercepting. Study the other top Falcos vs. top Luigis (PP, Mango, Westballz, Zhu vs. Vist, Abate, Vudujin, Eddy Mexico).

There are a ton of matchup quirks like with any matchup, but one bit of advice that you can apply almost universally to save yourself some headache is to DI behind Luigi when he grabs you. Luigi mains almost exclusively use uthrow and dthrow (occasionally they will use fthrow to throw you off, and I've never seen one use bthrow, but you can react to that anyway). DIing the direction Luigi is facing will cause you to barely move at all, but if you DI behind him he usually can't get any good followups. Another piece of advice is to try not to do traditional shield pressure. Way too many Falcos, myself included, try to pressure Luigi like other characters, but he slides back so far and the front of shine's hitbox is so small that he can almost always just shield grab after aerials. Stick with spacing the aerials away without the shines. Other than that, Chillin's tutorial gives some good insight into the matchup (it's for Fox, but a lot of the same stuff applies).

Can anyone help me with the falco dittos its really annoying because it feels like who ever pressure the most aka shines,lasers and dairs win?
Pressure is definitely huge, but it only really matters because pressure is what leads into the actual hits. If you aren't getting hits once you get them shielding, your pressure isn't doing its job. Your job is not to break the opponent's shield. lol
 

ChivalRuse

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I've had a lot of experience fighting Luigi because Winston and Vist both live in my region. The key is to punish them for ... wait for it ... wavedashing. They are vulnerable during the wavedash, you just have to know when you can hit or grab them out of it. Don't try to punish the second half of the wavedash because they have actionable frames during that part. Aim to tag them during the startup of the wavedash as they start moving forward (or back, less often though).
 

T-R3X

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Can anyone help me with the falco dittos its really annoying because it feels like who ever pressure the most aka shines,lasers and dairs win?
I think lasers are pretty important. Like whoever has the best lasers or whoever can get around lasers the best definitely has an advantage. So learn to do those things!
 

Goodin

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Falco's neutral game.... I am having trouble with his neutral game because I always get grabbed, its my biggest flaw in melee currently. For instance, in the marth match up, i will shoot a laser then approach with a nair but at times the marth can react then dash back and grab me. I feel like i always take the stance of the offender and never really camp my opponents and wait for them to approach, and i know its hurting my ability to win. I just do not know my defensive options or how to punish my opponent for approaching.
-when is it safest for the bird to approach?
- recognizing when to camp and when to approach
- best options in the neutral to start a combo?
- anything you can tell me which will help me in my conquest to not get grabbed like a scrublord.

Helping me out by answering anything i ask would be amazing and I strongly appreciate it. I can give some video example later in the week if that would help u all understand my problems. Im just really struggling to win the neutral and i need all the help to improve i can get.
 

Bones0

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Falco's neutral game.... I am having trouble with his neutral game because I always get grabbed, its my biggest flaw in melee currently. For instance, in the marth match up, i will shoot a laser then approach with a nair but at times the marth can react then dash back and grab me. I feel like i always take the stance of the offender and never really camp my opponents and wait for them to approach, and i know its hurting my ability to win. I just do not know my defensive options or how to punish my opponent for approaching.
-when is it safest for the bird to approach?
- recognizing when to camp and when to approach
- best options in the neutral to start a combo?
- anything you can tell me which will help me in my conquest to not get grabbed like a scrublord.

Helping me out by answering anything i ask would be amazing and I strongly appreciate it. I can give some video example later in the week if that would help u all understand my problems. Im just really struggling to win the neutral and i need all the help to improve i can get.
If you always laser then nair, you should realize that you are being predictable and mix it up. After the laser, you can laser again, DD to bait something, or a million other options.
 

OgiEthan

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As Falco, (obviously) what are the better stages to play against sheik? I hear commentators talk about FoD being good for Falco, but I feel like that's only for certain matchups.
 
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