PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[whitemountain123]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I have 2 videos and was looking for some tips in the fox match up. Falco vs Fox and Falco vs Falco/Fox. Also looking for advice on my neutral game and edgegaurd options although anything is appreciated

oh and how do you deal with choking?

this is twitch so i don't know how to watch in slow motion but:

these are some things i notice right away

0:20 — shine looked like it would've hit and is generally better at that percent (0 ~ 40 shine is better before fox starts to tumble from the dair)

0:24 — try to CC a lot of fox bairs (if they're not hitting you with the strongest part ) and nairs. I think if you smashed down when you got hit with the bair you could've shined in time.

0:35 — though mixups always have their place, i'd say that's a pretty unsafe up b esp given where the fox is. a lot of (good) players will just hit you out of firebird in my exp... even though you didnt get punished for it


sorry i did so little but hope it helps

Edit: sry for dub post

 

[Exasm]

I've been having trouble with getting into aggressive marths/sheik (mainly marth) in neutral. I do fine when I can keep them locked down with lasers, but I get beat when Marths start approaching with shorthop/fullhop fair. When I snipe their landing with a laser, they either jump up again and threaten me again with a fair. So I constantly lose space till I get cornered at the ledge.

When I try to go in after the fair, I get hit by a dtilt/utilt/grab after. Am I just not fast enough? Is Falco able to punish a Marth's whiffed fair with an aerial?

I generally like playing Falco, because I feel I don't have to as reaction based as the other top tiers, simply because I can control with lasers instead. What are some other good counter strategies against fair happy Marths? Same goes for Sheiks ftilting, I feel as if I'm not fast enough to punish a ftilt.

 

[Bones0]

I've been having trouble with getting into aggressive marths/sheik (mainly marth) in neutral. I do fine when I can keep them locked down with lasers, but I get beat when Marths start approaching with shorthop/fullhop fair. When I snipe their landing with a laser, they either jump up again and threaten me again with a fair. So I constantly lose space till I get cornered at the ledge.

When I try to go in after the fair, I get hit by a dtilt/utilt/grab after. Am I just not fast enough? Is Falco able to punish a Marth's whiffed fair with an aerial?

I generally like playing Falco, because I feel I don't have to as reaction based as the other top tiers, simply because I can control with lasers instead. What are some other good counter strategies against fair happy Marths? Same goes for Sheiks ftilting, I feel as if I'm not fast enough to punish a ftilt.

You're vastly overestimating how effective lasers are. You should primarily be using them for preventing ground movement. Trying to attack after lasers doesn't work if the opponent knows how to deal with lasers unless you landed right on top of them and can shine/grab. Lasering Marth in the air is particularly bad because he can just fair on reaction to being hit. If you shield a fair from Marth, you are able to punish unless he drifted super far away, in which case you just have to take space and work from there. If he's actually approaching with aerials, you can shield, CC, or simply WDDD back and SHFFL onto his landing aerial. The only way they can counter the last one is to go super deep and essentially hard read with a nair, but that gets beat really badly by shielding so most Marths won't do that.

When Marth automatically dtilts/utilts/grabs after landing, you can sometimes punish guaranteed, but usually you have to keep DDing to bait those options out. Just be more patient. If you make it a rule to not approach until after Marth does one of those attacks, you'll realize quickly how often you were being too impatient. Keep in mind that if he does any of those moves, you DEFINITELY can react and punish. If they stop doing them because you keep punishing them, this opens up the mixup to go back to approaching immediately after they land. Ultimately, you have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing and err on the safe side (at least when you have stage control). If if you have more stage, there's no rush to approach. When you're trapped at the ledge, you will sometimes have to make that decision to go in or not because you don't have the luxury of DDWDing until they throw out a laggy move. Combining this mentality with the above, use lasers sparingly. Realize when it is safe to shoot a laser, and realize when it won't help even if you can. Sometimes a well-spaced DD is better at keeping characters stuck in an area than lasers are because lasers have very low threat compared to Falco's DD leading into a SHFFL punish.

 

[pkblaze]

Where does PP go in depth on Flaco's dashdance? I can'T find it on the front page and figure it'll be a good read for a scrubby falco like me.

 

[YellowBand]

How can I train my Falco? I'm drawing a blank since all I can do at the moment is playing against CPU's so how can I train by my lonesome

 

[Bones0]

How can I train my Falco? I'm drawing a blank since all I can do at the moment is playing against CPU's so how can I train by my lonesome

Study videos.

 

[whitemountain123]

I wanna talk about a basic concept if that's alright.

I noticed recently—actually from playing teams—that I need to understand stage control and spacing (spacing in the sense of that video lucien made a while ago, more like zoning rather than hitting with the edge of specific hitboxes) and their interactions better.

When I've been playing teams recently, I've been focusing mostly on just holding center for our team and not approaching the opponents when they're waiting by the edge (especially vs. sheik, for example). But I also noticed that with the cramped nature of teams, I wasn't really sure what to do as the player by the edge started to challenge center stage. In singles when I have center stage, I can apply pressure with lasers and approach if I feel like I have a safe approach. If the opponent tries to take center, I can try walling them, and if I need more space I can go toward the opposite side of the stage to readjust my spacing.

So, I guess, what this made me question is, how do you balance the need to readjust spacing without losing stage control? I feel like falco is strong both in tight spaces and also from a distance where he can't get punished for lasering, but what do you do as an opponent tries to put falco in a spacing between that—where you could be punished for throwing out a laser, bair, utilt, etc if you whiff? In teams, how do you control center without throwing out whiffs when you can't as easily move across the stage because of the opponent's teammate? Do I just need to get better at reacting in those middle spacings so that I choose the right timings to throw out my moves and win the encounter?

Feel free to tell me that I'm wrong about my assumptions as well.

Edit: I find myself in teams (and in singles vs some chars, like peach and puff) escaping to the top platform. While in singles, this seams alright, esp against the aforementioned slow characters, in teams, it's not just a matter of me taking my time to regain stage control, but also I've now forfeited it for my teammate as well, which seems like a bigger issue.

I'm not one for necrobumping usually, but I'd like to think this is a post worthy of discussion.

I feel bad that PP gets singled out for responses so often, but @ Dr Peepee have any thoughts? Anyone else welcome too, of course. If not, i'll just leave this be

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your questions are good, but hard to fully answer without writing a novel lol.

Readjusting for spacing is done partly by what you observe, and partly by what you think is good. If you think WD back laser is good enough, then do that. If you want something faster and don't want to move back so much, then the half dash back laser I do is good. It just depends on what you want. Then if you always WD back laser, they might attack deep so you would need to do half dash back, or WD back and utilt or even just hold your ground and laser. Understanding how your options affect your opponent is crucial.

In teams, its okay to open the stage up, but you really want to stay close to your partner for double teams while kicking the other guy away. Taking platforms isn't so bad if you're jockeying for position or want to lead the opponent away from his teammate so he can hit you. Again, consider how your actions affect one guy and how that may affect both your team and his team.

 

[rikochet]

Hello everyone, i find falcos down air to be hilarious. Its so disrespectful i cant help but laugh whenever i see someone spiked by it.

 

[Darkshooter]

Hello everyone, i find falcos down air to be hilarious. Its so disrespectful i cant help but laugh whenever i see someone spiked by it.

I agree Riko, especially when you do the pillar (reflect->down air) combo.

 

[Xyzz]

Hello everyone, i find falcos down air to be hilarious. Its so disrespectful i cant help but laugh whenever i see someone spiked by it.

You tend to spent a lot of time watching smash being highly amused, right?

 

[Kadano]

Hello everyone, i find falcos down air to be hilarious. Its so disrespectful i cant help but laugh whenever i see someone spiked by it.

I feel the same way. Such a ********, overpowered move. It’s like ****ting on somebody.

Falco’s sound effects also cause me to burst into laughter frequently, especially when he techs and says “MM-HMMM”. He pronounces it just like we do here when we make this approval kind of sound.

To be honest, lately I have quite a hard time containing myself when playing Melee, even during tournament sets. There are so many amusing things in Melee … yesterday was the first time this happened to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LemXPO1iiy0

 

[Astraea31]

Hello fellow Falco mains!

I'm been a fan of competitive Melee since 2010, but I haven't really played much of the game due to lack of interest and there being no competitive scene in Winnipeg. However, that is slowly starting to change. We're starting to see more regular PM players at a local venue, and some of the Melee players have started hosting new monthly tournaments for Melee.

I'll also be going to my 2nd tournament this Saturday for PM/Melee. It's kind of a big event with several other fighting games being there as well. Any advice for a new player such as myself?

 

[Life]

Any advice for a new player such as myself?

Don't expect to win much for a while. This game is a LOT harder than it looks. You'll lose early, often, and hard.

But it's SO worth playing anyway.

Try to get as much advice from the people who beat you as you can, especially the ones who play Falco. Try to get some videos recorded so that the good Falcos here can do the same (I'm not one quite yet, I mostly just lurk here).

 

[Astraea31]

Don't expect to win much for a while. This game is a LOT harder than it looks. You'll lose early, often, and hard.

But it's SO worth playing anyway.

Try to get as much advice from the people who beat you as you can, especially the ones who play Falco. Try to get some videos recorded so that the good Falcos here can do the same (I'm not one quite yet, I mostly just lurk here).

Thanks for the advice!

Funnily enough I did get creamed pretty hard. I got last (33rd) out of like 40 people. I'll just try to go into with the mentality to have fun and learn from my mistakes.

Also, how are the condition of those white controllers? I'm asking cause some people are saying the triggers and analog stick are kind of stiff.

 

[Xyzz]

There's several white controllers. If you're talking about the Japanese import ones, i think they're awesome. Using a controller for about a year and not having the analog stick break on me = awesome :D

 

[Astraea31]

There's several white controllers. If you're talking about the Japanese import ones, i think they're awesome. Using a controller for about a year and not having the analog stick break on me = awesome :D

Dang. I should really get one then before next months tourney! I've been trying to learn shine out of shield, but my analog stick can't tell up from down. It's pretty horrible.

 

[Xyzz]

Up-b out of shield with falco sounds... daring :D

 

[pkblaze]

How does it not tell up from down? Does jumping with C instead of control stick work?

 

[Leirkov]

What is a good mindset or game plan against some of Falco's bad match ups? I'm attending my first local today and feel like I need to be ready to adapt to match ups and play styles from others.

Also, are there other good approach options aside from typical lasers or Nair/dair?

 

[Xyzz]

What is a good mindset or game plan against some of Falco's bad match ups?

No need; we don't have those.

 

[pkblaze]

Peach and Puff are tricky at a lower level, IMO, because they have the easiest time dealing with lazers(lol just float above them). Just be really smart about where you put your lazers, dashdance well, and for the love of god, do not CC vs. Peach. Don't ever trade with peach. Or with Puff, although Puff you can crouch cancel at low percents and she dies pretty early to CC Dtilt/upsmash.

Punish rests with a fully charged Fsmash I think. It's pretty guaranteed unless you have an unusually good combo game vs. puff, which i find hard to imagine at a low level.

Vs the other top tiers I think you just do typical Falco stuff. Peach and Puff seem like the only ones who really force you to play differently. Oh, uptilt when pillaring earlier than you would vs. other characters.

 

[Leirkov]

I got my ass handed to me as I expected, so with what I learned, I'd like to ask:

1) How important is jab resetting? I found jab ->fsmash worked pretty well around 90%.
2) What wavedash approach options are there? I couldn't wavedash today at all so I need to learn Falco's, which I'm really struggling with.
3) Can Falco chainthrow anyone? I learned Fox can in a spacies ditto .-.

 

[Xyzz]

1) Not quite sure, the "they lie on the ground in front of me"-situation doesn't come up for too often for me. I guess I would rather take a shine and not risk them already holding away (Falco's jab isn't fixed knockback so at higher percents they can do a roll, even if the jab connects), or directly dair / dsmash. If I do get resets, it's usually by lasering them when there is no other follow up. Knocked them away with something which might have them miss the tech, might as well shoot a low laser to try for the reset into an aerial / shine / runcancel > smash.
2) If you really want to you could use spaced ftilts after wavedashing towards them. I don't think it's a great idea though.
3) Falco doesn't have a inescapable chaingrab on anybody. You can bthrow people and get a regrab off that if you catch them with the incorrect DI.

 

[Bones0]

Utilt, dtilt, dsmash, or usmash are almost always better than trying to jab reset.

 

[tauKhan]

1) Not quite sure, the "they lie on the ground in front of me"-situation doesn't come up for too often for me. I guess I would rather take a shine and not risk them already holding away (Falco's jab isn't fixed knockback so at higher percents they can do a roll, even if the jab connects), or directly dair / dsmash. If I do get resets, it's usually by lasering them when there is no other follow up. Knocked them away with something which might have them miss the tech, might as well shoot a low laser to try for the reset into an aerial / shine / runcancel > smash.

If you go for shines on knocked down opponents, you must be aware on the staleness of your shine. If you have done shines on staleslots 2 and another on 5 or lower, your shine will do less than 7 dmg and cause the weird canceling of hitstun when it launches the opponent. So basically if you shine, then do two moves afterwards and do shine dair and they miss the tech, you shouldn't do shine.
Lasers on the other hand are amazing, since they always force get up, which you can punish however you want. I think going for laser reset while staying outside of their getup attack range is often good.

 

[Xyzz]

Conveniently my subconsciousness tells my fingers not to shine in those situations <3 :D

 

[pkblaze]

Ugh I hate the stale shine thing. It's only a weird reset vs. knocked down opponents though, right? I sometimes get it when I mess up a pillar combo. And does stale slot 2 mean the move you did 2 moves ago?

 

[tauKhan]

Ugh I hate the stale shine thing. It's only a weird reset vs. knocked down opponents though, right? I sometimes get it when I mess up a pillar combo. And does stale slot 2 mean the move you did 2 moves ago?

Answer is yes to both of your questions. I made the term stale slot up myself, I haven't seen anybody writing about staling in detail, so I just hoped the expression would make sense.
I don't use shine often on knocked down opponents, because it's pretty hard to keep track with how staled the shine is, especially when it's used so much. I don't play much falco though, perhaps one can learn that with enough experience.

 

[pkblaze]

Answer is yes to both of your questions. I made the term stale slot up myself, I haven't seen anybody writing about staling in detail, so I just hoped the expression would make sense.
I don't use shine often on knocked down opponents, because it's pretty hard to keep track with how staled the shine is, especially when it's used so much. I don't play much falco though, perhaps one can learn that with enough experience.

Vs. knocked down opponents tthe thing I have the most success with lazer reset into dair/shine, but for some reason I never go for it and just wait for their getup option which I proceed to whiff on the punish lol.

 

[Bones0]

If you can get the laser reset, then you should almost always go for it. The problem is you can't laser reset on reaction (or even with an anticipatory SH) because it takes too long.

 

[SAUS]

If you can get the laser reset, then you should almost always go for it. The problem is you can't laser reset on reaction (or even with an anticipatory SH) because it takes too long.

After I hit the opponent a little too far, I chase after them with a short-hop laser. If they miss the tech, they get reset and I am in their face. Otherwise, I go for the tech chase. It still doesn't come up often, but I think it's a pretty good option when the situation arises.

 

[Bones0]

After I hit the opponent a little too far, I chase after them with a short-hop laser. If they miss the tech, they get reset and I am in their face. Otherwise, I go for the tech chase. It still doesn't come up often, but I think it's a pretty good option when the situation arises.

Sorry, I meant to say "can't always laser reset on reaction". I get a lot of laser resets on all sorts of knockdowns, but in situations where jab reset is a possible option, you usually aren't able to laser. Most of the time jab reset comes up for me is when I dair someone into the ground, and all the options I listed before are usually possible.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Peach and Puff are tricky at a lower level, IMO, because they have the easiest time dealing with lazers(lol just float above them). Just be really smart about where you put your lazers, dashdance well, and for the love of god, do not CC vs. Peach. Don't ever trade with peach. Or with Puff, although Puff you can crouch cancel at low percents and she dies pretty early to CC Dtilt/upsmash.

Punish rests with a fully charged Fsmash I think. It's pretty guaranteed unless you have an unusually good combo game vs. puff, which i find hard to imagine at a low level.

Vs the other top tiers I think you just do typical Falco stuff. Peach and Puff seem like the only ones who really force you to play differently. Oh, uptilt when pillaring earlier than you would vs. other characters.

peach and puff are tricky at low level because both players are making a buttload of mistakes but peach and puff dont get punished as hard or as easily as falco does. miss space an approach get down smashed for 9 to 50 %, miss an lcancel get grabbed by puff and thrown off the stage into an edge guard position.

 

[pkblaze]

peach and puff are tricky at low level because both players are making a buttload of mistakes but peach and puff dont get punished as hard or as easily as falco does. miss space an approach get down smashed for 9 to 50 %, miss an lcancel get grabbed by puff and thrown off the stage into an edge guard position.

That too, haha.

 

[Snorlaxes]

Hey guys, I had a question regarding reverse lasers and slightly loose control sticks.

Currently, I have a controller that works totally fine other than the control stick is slightly off-center and at rest is the tiniest bit to the right. When I reverse my lasers, I normally do SH>tilt stick>let go of control stick>B. Reversing my lasers to the left is more difficult because of the off-center, which I think causes the stick to accidentally tilt back to the right when I let go of it. However, this might be placebo and I could just be inputting poorly and mentally johning. Also important to note is that I don't have a set up and I practice on Dolphin to just work on muscle memory.

My questions to you guys are:
1. Is it possible that the slight off-centeredness will cease to matter on a real setup / is Dolphin just overly sensitive?
2. If Dolphin isn't a factor, should I just work harder at my reverse lasers or would buying a new controller be a worthwhile investment?

I included a screenshot from Dolphin of the control stick at rest:

 

[Bones0]

I can't tell you if it will carry over from Dolphin to a normal setup (I would guess that normal setups are just as sensitive though). You will just have to test your controller or ask an experienced player to test it and see if it's affecting side-Bs. It sucks having a slightly loose stick, but I've had sticks like that before and it makes it way too hard to focus on actually playing when I'm mentally reminding myself to reverse lasers further than normal with the threat of side-B SDs looming over my head.

 

[Snorlaxes]

Thanks man, I guess I'll just wait to see if I notice it on a normal setup, and if I do, I'll ask a better Falco (or Fox I guess) for their opinion. The side-B SDs are the most obvious concern, but I also feel like I can't give up my laser options if I want a decent Falco.

 

[Askeflink]

Hey guys. I'd really love some feedback on teams. I've been playing with a peach player since Beast 4 that I know well. It's four tournaments now, and we allready do well together but I know there's much we can work on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wClZXvZuOD4

Thanks in advance!

 

[SSBMLahti]

Bones, do you live here?

I will keep this short and simple: A Falco with good lasers is a scary Falco. How do I avoid, approach and maneuver vs Falco's lasers?

Thanks!