PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Oskurito]

1st match at Yoshi's
Why so many d-tilts at first? I think that move is very situational and shouldn't be used too often.

at 1:30 you could've recovered, It looks like you unintentionally fastfalled your second jump? Idk.

at 1:50 you got a shine oos but you didn't convert that quite well, basically after the first minute it looks like you lost your ability to combo the other falco. No offense but the other guy had better combos than you, and imo, that's a big part of why he ended with the lead.

at 1:58 I'm really questioning your approach with the dash attack, I think nair or dair would have been much better choices.

after 2:45 you were starting to just try to get a hit anyway possible without thinking much, 2:51 you got a dair but missed the L-cancel? I know everyone makes some mistakes once in a while but you gotta be realistic, how can you expect to win if you're missing combo opportunities?

2:55 I'm guessing you were holding down and preparing to hit L to tech on the top platform and you didn't see that nair coming which resulted in a pretty awful DI from your part lol.

2nd match at FD
3:32 and 3:35 are examples of 2 missed shfflc that could have been the initiators of a big combo opportunity.

4:48 you gotta DI those up throws man.

5:26 I'm thinking maybe you were a bit nervous and started missing your shorthops?

6:12 another missed shine oos opportunity, It looks like you did it so fast you didn't even leave the ground after the initial shine and that may have throw your timing off a bit.

Overall I think you need more solid combos, getting as much damage as you can from an opening is very important. Also, I would have liked to see more laser game to give you some space to think rather than kept approaching in similar manners over and over again. The other falco didn't throw many lasers either, both of you were trying to get close and get something going with combos, at the end of the day the falco that did the most damage (mostly because of better combos and follow ups) won.

 

[BIGJOHNSONxPWNS]

1st match at Yoshi's
Why so many d-tilts at first? I think that move is very situational and shouldn't be used too often.

One of them was pretty jank, but two were on purpose. One to keep him off stage and the other because I just have a silly habit of doing it at low percent to combo into shine (0:46)
EDIT: I saw a couple others I don't like. I'll start using them in moderation more.

1st match at Yoshi's
at 1:30 you could've recovered, It looks like you unintentionally fastfalled your second jump? Idk.

Missed the wall jump. Didn't want to ride the wall up only to get daired (I'm horrible at ledge teching so there was no saving me lol)

1st match at Yoshi's
at 1:50 you got a shine oos but you didn't convert that quite well, basically after the first minute it looks like you lost your ability to combo the other falco. No offense but the other guy had better combos than you, and imo, that's a big part of why he ended with the lead.

Yeah after watching this a couple of times I shook my head at how many combos I dropped. I could have won this easily both games if I had just kept some basic combos going.

6:12 another missed shine oos opportunity, It looks like you did it so fast you didn't even leave the ground after the initial shine and that may have throw your timing off a bit.

Overall I think you need more solid combos, getting as much damage as you can from an opening is very important. Also, I would have liked to see more laser game to give you some space to think rather than kept approaching in similar manners over and over again. The other falco didn't throw many lasers either, both of you were trying to get close and get something going with combos, at the end of the day the falco that did the most damage (mostly because of better combos and follow ups) won.

Yeah I'm trying to get my shine OoS timing perfect so I can always expect to be grounded when it comes out and wavedash out of it. He also CC'd it which always throws my rhythm off.
But yeah I definitely do need to follow up on combos more and capitalize as much as possible. Any suggestions of different ways I could approach to mix it up and throw off my opponent? Thanks for the critique also. I appreciate it.

 

[Oskurito]

The approaches are almost always the same and they'll usually begin with a laser, these are the most common used by many, even the pros:

nair to shine
dair to shine
laser shine ("in your face" kind of approach)
laser jab (followed by shine or grab or smash if they're at high %)
grab
shine grab
dash attack (usually considered unsafe)

What matters is how you approach rather than which approach you choose, you have to use some wavedashing and dash dancing in combination with lasers in order to approach or bait an approach from your opponent. When you approach you can't afford making a mistake after you got a solid hit, specially if you got a clear shot with a shine (I think you know this well so I'm not going to elaborate much on that). On the other hand, when you bait you opponent to get close and commit to fight you, you need to learn how is he trying to react so that you can predict his approach and punish with a combo. Of course, he can choose to stay patient and wait for you to make the first move, but that's when you abuse the lasers and keep shooting to force him to do something, things like powershielding come in handy in falco dittos.

Watch this match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs

at 16:18, notice how dr. pp uses the aforementioned approaches and uses dash dancing to bait his opponent to do something and punishes him accordingly.

 

[mas_torque]

0:22 I don't like FH like those. It's fishing for a hit that leaves you vulnerable. Be more patient in these situations. Shine bair or shine waveland > something would probably be better.

0:50 Don't misspace your EZ dairs, and don't basically give up your pressure and a potential stocks by bairing him back into the middle of the stage

1:00 I'm sorry but FHs blooooowwwwwwwww haha should've kept stage control and punished him as he comes back.

1:03 Up to this point you have used zero laser pressure. You've used lasers, but purely as an approach. No baits, no spamming to force approaches. Yeah it's Falco dittos on Yoshi's, but still. You're getting punished hard for approaching.

1:42 You're getting rocked right now. Instead of getting to safety or establishing pressure of your own, you show your opponent that you're obviously flustered by letting him bait out a poor SHFFL, although getting zero to death'd will do that. Obvious baits like that should not work. WD back and shoot lasers or get on a platform so he won't be as immediate of a threat. You could maybe WD forward, shield his reaction, and get a grab

1:56 Hot damn you're scared. Retreating and pivot lasers to DD are your friend. Going in with a DA is stupid too. It's so unsafe unless you do it late on shield, they don't lightshield, and they don't expect it or respond. When you've lost control of the match, stop running in. Make him come to you and punish his mistakes. If you're gonna spotdodge like that don't go in your shield, just shine immediately.

2:04 If you're shielding above him, be patient. Use your lightshield to cover more of yourself. Also, learn shielddrops because they're ****ing amazing and no one besides super high level players uses it. IT'S SO GOOD AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO DUMB JUMPS OOS.

Last stock you need to do late aerials. You get punished for early ones on shield and whiffs. Don't be so reactive. Play more patiently and have more purpose behind everything you do.

If anyone of this is helpful I can check out game 2

edit: conversely, if any of this is utter bull****, please call me out

 

[SSS]

Falco in teams with Samus?

 

[cjugs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE2b_xAqKVk
When mango plays i just don't understand the quickness on the WDing and the dashing back and forth it looks so fast but it seems odd how fast the WDing and Dashing over and over again is this just practice?

 

[BIGJOHNSONxPWNS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE2b_xAqKVk
When mango plays i just don't understand the quickness on the WDing and the dashing back and forth it looks so fast but it seems odd how fast the WDing and Dashing over and over again is this just practice?

It is definitely a lot of practice, but what you're seeing a lot might be surf wavedashing. It's basically a quick dash into wavedash. It's what Peepee does too that makes him look like his wavedash game is incredible. Hopefully this is what you're referring to because other than that it's just a lot of practice dash dancing (getting the width and speed of it down) and wavedashing. Just disregard this if you already know what I'm saying. Just trying to help.

Here's an example if you didn't already know what it was:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8FYFUDJhY&t=1m32s

 

[mas_torque]

It's dashes to immediate wavedashes. When you learn to do it effectively, it's super fun and looks badass. Your spacing can be so scary.

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Guys, I don't know if you knew this, but falco has this thing called a spike. Tell me if I'm going to fast.

 

[Bones0]

Guys, I don't know if you knew this, but falco has this thing called a spike. Tell me if I'm going to fast.

How should I know if you're going to fast? Are you religious or something?

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

How should I know if you're going to fast? Are you religious or something?

Lol I see what you did there

 

[Mogwai]

you are going way too fast for me, I'm getting kinda uncomfortable. Can we go back to the part where he has lasers?

 

[KP17]

Can anybody get frame data on various laser heights w/ various fast fall timings (before and after the laser)? Preferably Kadano bc hes pree gud at it

 

[Bones0]

Can anybody get frame data on various laser heights w/ various fast fall timings (before and after the laser)? Preferably Kadano bc hes pree gud at it

He has a pic of all the different laser heights in his Marth forums thread. The frame data on it would be entirely useless in general practice though.

 

[Splice]

That Marth Thread is crazy, It'd be lovely if there was something like that for Falco.

This picture particularly is crazy, showing the different follow ups from fthrow/dthrow depending on Jigglypuffs DI.
Really takes it to the next level of understanding

 

[Askeflink]

I'd really like some input on the Falco / Peach team, and I can't really come up with many good teams with this combo. Do you guys? And how can we make this team work very well?

Me and Widl (the peach) have been playing for quite long, but Beast 4 is the first time we teamed (in a while), where we placed 13th. We wanna try it again some more.
No video, unfortunately.

 

[Bones0]

I'd really like some input on the Falco / Peach team, and I can't really come up with many good teams with this combo. Do you guys? And how can we make this team work very well?

Me and Widl (the peach) have been playing for quite long, but Beast 4 is the first time we teamed (in a while), where we placed 13th. We wanna try it again some more.
No video, unfortunately.

I think team strategies are really abstract because unlike singles, there are more than 10 or so prevalent teams/characters. I'm not team expert, but I feel like the team could work best with Peach taking the more aggressive role and Falco hanging back more. Peach can stay on the ground, abuse her CC, dsmash, and DA while Falco continues combos on opponents knocked upwards. His FH is good for continuing combos Peach otherwise would never be able to reach. Falco can also help to clean up when there are high percent opponents with quick bair or double dair KOs. As far as saving goes, Peach can dair Falco, and Falco can laser Peach's up-B or shine her if she's too low. Beyond those basics, you should probably just watch Peach and Falco in teams separately and try to figure out what best attributes to take from other teams. Maybe your Peach is really good at tanking stocks and your Falco is good at being in the fray, in which case my general strategy won't really fit you.

 

[KP17]

I think the frame data on lasers is as relevant as frame data for shines/aerials. Theyre both information that is just good to know, but not necessary to playing the game well. I wanted to know what frame the highest short hop laser came out on, the frame data for FFing before the laser, specifically the window for getting the laser out, and several other things

 

[Battlecow]

I'm sad about the lack of apex writeup and I don't care who knows it

Also hope PP's health is OK seems like he ain't been around

 

[oukd]

can someone go over what causes people to land without lag after getting hit by dair? i know sometimes people can act instantly out of getting hit in the air or something but idk what the specifics are on that

also same deal with fox if you want to get into that lol. much appreciated

 

[Bones0]

can someone go over what causes people to land without lag after getting hit by dair? i know sometimes people can act instantly out of getting hit in the air or something but idk what the specifics are on that

also same deal with fox if you want to get into that lol. much appreciated

If you are airborne and don't get knocked over, hitstun is cancelled upon landing. It's also commonly seen with Fox's shine on waveshineable chars.

 

[KP17]

watch mango vs pp when they play falco dittos. they almost always capitalize on the lack of hitstun upon hitting the ground and shine the other and start a combo for it. westballz does it alot too i believe.

 

[whitemountain123]

What do people think is the best way to punish anticipated ledge hop double lasers in the ditto?

There seem to be a lot of times I've seen falcos gets away with it in the ditto, and the times he doesn't there doesn't seem to be one or two best punishes to it (though of course I know that where you are before the lasers come will affect what you can do). I've seen the other falco act out of shield between the two lasers, drop through a platform bair between the lasers, double jump and land on the ground after both lasers and try to punish then, or maintain stage control. Maybe my timing is crappy, but I struggle to punish between the two lasers. What do people think is the most consistent answer to LHDL if you predict it, or if you react to it when you're on a platform, or if you react to it from the ground?

 

[Mogwai]

The drop through a platform bair has been the best for me, but my off the ledge/anti off the ledge game has always been pretty mediocre.

 

[Bones0]

After the first laser hits me, I tend to just spam ftilt. lol

 

[Xyzz]

If you're not confident acting out of the stun of the first laser, it's obviously a good idea to avoid them. Like Mogwai said, being on the side plat when they shoot is a free bair, which should lead to an easy edgeguard unless they're at like 20%.
Crouching under the lasers can work, but since Falco's crouch isn't that low, they would have to shoot horrible high lasers. So yeah, if you anticipate their lhdl, jump > WL to the side plat.

 

[KP17]

im not sure if the second laser needs to be CC'd in order to get a ftilt out before they could shine. (ftilt is 7 frames, shine is 1)
i think jabbing after the second laser is guaranteed most of the time
platform drop bair is super good, it covers their waveland to the plat as well if it is timed well

 

[Bones0]

im not sure if the second laser needs to be CC'd in order to get a ftilt out before they could shine. (ftilt is 7 frames, shine is 1)
i think jabbing after the second laser is guaranteed most of the time
platform drop bair is super good, it covers their waveland to the plat as well if it is timed well

Well I ftilt before the second one. I think SHL laser -> shine is safe on block and hit even if they CC. I should just practice grabbing after the first one since M2K seems to be able to get it almost every time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

mango does this thing where he gets close and shields the first laser then does something OOS to punish the other. that's pretty good too.

 

[whitemountain123]

thanks guys.

yeah pp a lot of the time shielding by the ledge (at least against mid/low level falcos) gets them to aerial or LHDL, especially if you run toward them to do it. i think i've seen mango nair OOS between the two, and I'm pretty sure I've seen zhu shine oos (into nair or something) in between as well.

guess i just have to practice the time cuz i always seem to get hit before my move comes out lol

 

[whitemountain123]

Alright given that this thread has been pretty dead for the last while, I'll go ahead and try and get some discussion going.

What do people think about shield pressure nowadays? And I mean specifically, aerials, shines, (and grounded moves too, I guess) on shield (not positional pressure). The risk/reward ratio just doesn't seem worth it anymore.

I play a decent amount against darkatma and his OOS timings are really quick. When I play his sheik or peach and go for any sort of direct pressure, I get naired OOS. If I play his fox, I get shined OOS. I'm actually curious, does anyone know if immediate retreating nair or dair after the shine beat these OOS options?

In any case, I've increasingly just been opting for shinegrab in most matchups except for maybe falcon in which laser shine and traditional pressure seem to work well because his OOS options are so limited.

Relatedly, compared to, say Pound V PP, I mostly see PP shinegrab on shield or maybe do an immedate retreating aerial (vs. M2K's shiek for instance). Both PP and Mango seem to apply shield pressure more by waiting and maintaing stage control/positioning and baits, rather than direct attacks.

So, is it worth it? Do you think hits-on-shield will make a comeback in any sort of way, or is it too outdated?

And for some comic relief let's remember PP's post on mango's color choice at rom4 (sorry pp): http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-285#post-13704920

 

[Xyzz]

Fox's shine OOS and Sheik's nair OOS both lose to shine > immediate nair and shine > grab.

 

[whitemountain123]

is that spacing independent and shine staling independent? I feel like i've definitely seen sheik's nair oos at least trade with immediate nair in some high level matches

 

[Xyzz]

Oh, right. If you're both frame perfect (and shine isn't staled below 7%) you actually nair on the same frame. (I just remembered that shine grab will always beat her (and nair is the same speed), but that's just due to grab boxes beating hitboxes)

 

[KP17]

its reliable for fox to shine OOS versus even shine grab if you aren't frame perfect. Most foxes won't do that though.

fadeback can negate his advantage by spacing outside of shine range. but honestly I dont go for extended shield pressure unless I am making a hard read and the opponents shield is at 70% or so or less. grabs are good and you can always work on following up uthrow better vs fox

 

[SpiderMad]

I saw Mango vs Westballz friendlies and he used SH Fair to out-space Westballz Shine OOS

 

[TechMage299]

I would definitely prefer > simply due to the fact that Falco can "Pillar" on some major damage and shine to Up-B off the ceiling which is satisfying nonetheless.

 

[ssbHex]

Peepee, or anyone else, could you explain why you go for the Uthrow-Fair, as shown in the following video at 18:20:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs

I understand it is a quick way to rack up percent, but the few times i've seen it used, you're pretty much guaranteed to get hit or grabbed after. If it's a Marth, this could end up very bad for the Falco. In this case it led to an edgeguard for M2K. Could someone explain why this is a good idea or how to use it without getting punished? Thanks to everyone who can help in advance.

 

[Dr Peepee]

He had good DI on those Fair hits, and I also FF for some reason so I did not auto cancel the move and got hit. I could have shield grabbed him otherwise I'm fairly certain, or at least moved out of the way.....or even CC'd come to think of it! These options from the Uthrow Fair all allow me to move Marth toward the edge of the stage, which he doesn't like, and put him closer to kill combo percent, which no one likes. There is not a better option I know of at this time than Uthrow Fair at certain percents, but I encourage you and any other reader to critically examine the combo and other potentially viable alternatives =)

 

[BTmoney]

@ everyone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc

watch this and look up the shield pressure threads, it's pretty easy to figure out what works

Grab is active on frame 7 (for the non ass characters), frame perfect shine OOS is 4 frames (airborne on frame 4, shine can come out on first actionable frame), Sheik's frame perfect nair OOS is 6 frames (3 frames jump squat like Fox, nair starts on frame 4 goes to 5->frame 6)

buffered roll gets you out of 98% of strings and you are invincible on frame 4 (including both character's multishine unless the first shine is fresh, why would it be?), buffered jump is also good