PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[SalaMenace]

I have a few random questions

1. How come occasionally Falco's shine sends people way up in the sky? What exactly causes this?

2. Do you guys have any tips for playing on Fountain of Dreams? The low platforms make it impossible to laser underneath, and I really struggle against characters like Peach or Sheik that can just get one hit, knock you offstage, and edgeguard you. It's hard to space around my opponent cause it feels like there's no room, and not having lasers makes it even harder.

3. How do you stop a good fox player from shine spiking you constantly? It's hard enough to just go even with fox as it is, but then you are further separated by Fox having the ability to kill at 0%. Like a Fox will just run straight up to me and do a running double shine to knock me offstage, then jump down and shine to finish me off. This is also really hard to stop in doubles when you are focused on the other opponent. It just doesn't seem fair

 

[Chiggaman23]

1, Jigglypuff exists. Plus, it's more KO power.
2, Fountain of Dreams is the worst stage for both spacies. Best I can recommend is platform camping on the higher side platforms, and pressuring them from underneath with stuff like up airs.
3, Don't get knocked low offstage. Aka, never get hit by down smash. Avoiding those Shine setups at the start of a match is undoubtedly tough, but I suggest you keep on lasering. Doing one laser is easily powershielded, but doing more could mess up the opponents timing and leave them open for a punish if you just keep advancing forward.

 

[Bones0]

I have a few random questions

1. How come occasionally Falco's shine sends people way up in the sky? What exactly causes this?

2. Do you guys have any tips for playing on Fountain of Dreams? The low platforms make it impossible to laser underneath, and I really struggle against characters like Peach or Sheik that can just get one hit, knock you offstage, and edgeguard you. It's hard to space around my opponent cause it feels like there's no room, and not having lasers makes it even harder.

3. How do you stop a good fox player from shine spiking you constantly? It's hard enough to just go even with fox as it is, but then you are further separated by Fox having the ability to kill at 0%. Like a Fox will just run straight up to me and do a running double shine to knock me offstage, then jump down and shine to finish me off. This is also really hard to stop in doubles when you are focused on the other opponent. It just doesn't seem fair

1. If shine is stale and you hit them with it when they miss a tech, it's like a jab reset, but because they are too high off the ground to go into the reset animation, they just float away. If you've hit the opponent with shines recently, you might want to consider using other moves to combo with to avoid them escaping that way.

2. WD back towards the edge if you need to laser, but really the stage is so small you can usually approach if you're near the side plat anyway. You can aerial onto the side plats and be safe in a way that isn't possible on flat ground, so consider that as well. Against character that control space well, feel free to abuse the top plat. It's not very high, but it still can give you a reprieve from being trapped on the ground, and Falco's vertical mobility makes it dangerous for them to challenge you on there. Vs. Peach specifically, you can laser on top of the low plats to hit her out of float even better than you normally can. For Sheik, you kind of have to just stay on top of her. Try to keep laser control whenever you do have center stage, and that will help you stay safe as well as give you openings while they try to fight their way through them.

3. Use 20xx's replay function to have a Fox shine you by the ledge. As long as you aren't right on the edge, you can FF down as you pass the edge to grab it instead of sliding off. It's absolutely essential to be good at this vs. Fox, especially on the small stages. As far as preventing the shine in the first place goes, pay attention to when Foxes break out into a full run. Once he has run too far to dash back, that's a good indicator that he might be going for a running shine. Retreating or approaching with a dair is a good way to whiff punish or stuff his shine. It's only out for one frame so moving away or towards him right before he reaches you makes it much harder for him to time it. For doubles, you have to be focused on every player, at least to some extent. If you want to attack one of the opponents, always keep in mind that a quick Fox player will be position himself so that he can running shine you. It's often good to dash towards their teammate to make them think you will attack, then dash back towards the Fox with a dair and catch him off guard.

 

[SalaMenace]

3. Use 20xx's replay function to have a Fox shine you by the ledge. As long as you aren't right on the edge, you can FF down as you pass the edge to grab it instead of sliding off. It's absolutely essential to be good at this vs. Fox, especially on the small stages.

Is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/sXvWA_TjNQg

In the first 20 seconds I tried fast falling down and it never worked, but I found out that if I just hold towards the stage I would always grab the ledge.

 

[Bones0]

Is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/sXvWA_TjNQg

In the first 20 seconds I tried fast falling down and it never worked, but I found out that if I just hold towards the stage I would always grab the ledge.

You can't grab the ledge when you're holding down. Press down to fast fall as you pass the ledge, then let go so you can grab it.

 

[mrdoingboing]

Hey, I had a couple questions regarding Marth's CG punishes on Falco specifically:

1. Once fthrow regrab stops working at super low percent, they start going for regrabs, then up tilts etc. What I want to know is at what percent I can shine out of no DI on the chaingrabs. My gut is telling me it's around 16-20%, but I'm really iffy on it. Plus it differs between Fox and Falco a tiny bit. A lot of Marth's are too lazy or not quick enough to consistently pivot on no DI, and I feel like shining out would be a real killer to players like this. If possible I'd also like to know the frame window to do so so that I can time one move instead of mashing shine out of the throw hitstun.

2. I often hear people talk about SDI'ing the up tilts and up airs once you hit the mid/high percent to pop out of the combo, but I've never heard anyone tell me what direction. Do I just want to SDI up? Or is it more like SDI'ing to the side the same way you escape from Falco combos?

I also feel like Kadano or someone else might have made a table that listed CG percents, followups, and some other miscellaneous info. I can't find it, and if anyone can refer me to it I would be super grateful.

 

[kaptinkillem]

Doesn't fthrow regrab not work? I thought you could always di down + away and buffer spot dodge or roll?

 

[Bones0]

Hey, I had a couple questions regarding Marth's CG punishes on Falco specifically:

1. Once fthrow regrab stops working at super low percent, they start going for regrabs, then up tilts etc. What I want to know is at what percent I can shine out of no DI on the chaingrabs. My gut is telling me it's around 16-20%, but I'm really iffy on it. Plus it differs between Fox and Falco a tiny bit. A lot of Marth's are too lazy or not quick enough to consistently pivot on no DI, and I feel like shining out would be a real killer to players like this. If possible I'd also like to know the frame window to do so so that I can time one move instead of mashing shine out of the throw hitstun.

2. I often hear people talk about SDI'ing the up tilts and up airs once you hit the mid/high percent to pop out of the combo, but I've never heard anyone tell me what direction. Do I just want to SDI up? Or is it more like SDI'ing to the side the same way you escape from Falco combos?

I also feel like Kadano or someone else might have made a table that listed CG percents, followups, and some other miscellaneous info. I can't find it, and if anyone can refer me to it I would be super grateful.

Fthrow regrab NEVER works if you DI down+away. I can't give specifics on shining out of the optimal CG, but as the Falco, it's not all that important for you to know tbh. I recommend trying to shine out on any throw below ~20%. The risk reward is just so good, and it's way harder for Marth to execute than the other options. The most important thing to master is the slight DI in. If you aren't slight DIing, shining out is way worse. A lot of times I don't hit the shine before their grab comes out, but they just grabbed the wrong way because I slight DIed and it's impossible for the human eye to discern the difference. This is a consequence of Marth leaning forward in his grab animation. Characters like Peach or Falcon can regrab DI on top of them because their grabs don't start so far away from them.

There's two approaches you can take to SDIing the CG followups. The first is to SDI uairs down and utilts down+in to go as low as possible. If Marth has to regrab after a utilt, for example, SDIing low to the ground can make the window much tighter. The other option is to SDI up on uairs and up+away on utilts to go as high as possible. This is more useful at higher percents when it's unlikely you'll be able to SDI towards the ground, and while you won't get out of the combo immediately on FD/PS, DIing super high will prevent you from being comboed into a tipper or fair combo to send you off stage. The idea is that Marth's combo game is weakest at the top of the screen, so if you can get up there and force him to end his combo with a lackluster nair, then you can survival DI the nair easily and fight you way back down from there. Retaining your jump is obviously best for both, but be especially careful with the latter method because you might accidentally tap jump if they uair/utilt later than you expect.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, I had a couple questions regarding Marth's CG punishes on Falco specifically:

1. Once fthrow regrab stops working at super low percent, they start going for regrabs, then up tilts etc. What I want to know is at what percent I can shine out of no DI on the chaingrabs. My gut is telling me it's around 16-20%, but I'm really iffy on it. Plus it differs between Fox and Falco a tiny bit. A lot of Marth's are too lazy or not quick enough to consistently pivot on no DI, and I feel like shining out would be a real killer to players like this. If possible I'd also like to know the frame window to do so so that I can time one move instead of mashing shine out of the throw hitstun.

2. I often hear people talk about SDI'ing the up tilts and up airs once you hit the mid/high percent to pop out of the combo, but I've never heard anyone tell me what direction. Do I just want to SDI up? Or is it more like SDI'ing to the side the same way you escape from Falco combos?

I also feel like Kadano or someone else might have made a table that listed CG percents, followups, and some other miscellaneous info. I can't find it, and if anyone can refer me to it I would be super grateful.

1. This is related to your final thing, but check the OP of the Kadano Marth thread it has the info you want for a lot of this and for this question specifically. I'm pretty sure it's after 20% though.

2. SDI'ing to a top platform is a great way to break the punish. You can see Armada do it with Fox. Bones talked about the up vs down mixup but I personally think going up as much as possible is just best. You break the combo and don't have to worry about Fsmash now.

 

[mrdoingboing]

Thanks for the info Bones0 and Dr Peepee ! I need to work on slight DI during chaingrabs, so this should be a really applicable way to improve on that. Gonna take a look at the Kadano thread in a bit and study up, this matchup can be pretty tricky.

 

[SalaMenace]

How do you double laser from the ledge and have the first laser be low? I've seen mango and zhu do this. My friend told me to try tapping up to jump but that seems risky since you could accidentally up-b, and it's a lot easier to just straight up miss the input. Also I don't even see how tap jumping would help. How do you guys go about double lasering like this?

 

[Jayners]

How do you double laser from the ledge and have the first laser be low? I've seen mango and zhu do this. My friend told me to try tapping up to jump but that seems risky since you could accidentally up-b, and it's a lot easier to just straight up miss the input. Also I don't even see how tap jumping would help. How do you guys go about double lasering like this?

I just use tap jump. Unfortunately, it does take a bit of grinding to not accidentally up-b or jump too quickly after letting go of ledge.

But, other than tap jumping, you could try sliding from Y to B for quicker inputs.

 

[Bones0]

How do you double laser from the ledge and have the first laser be low? I've seen mango and zhu do this. My friend told me to try tapping up to jump but that seems risky since you could accidentally up-b, and it's a lot easier to just straight up miss the input. Also I don't even see how tap jumping would help. How do you guys go about double lasering like this?

There are two main factors that determine your laser height: how far down you drop before jumping, and how quickly you laser after jumping. You have to laser quickly after jumping in order to drop down far enough to get both lasers out before you land. I recommend Y -> B, but ultimately you don't want the lasers to go that low anyway. You usually want them as high as possible while still hitting the opponent so you can stuff their jump while also preventing them from moving forward through them. If they're close enough to the ledge to crouch under, then you shouldn't be LHDLing in the first place, and hitting them with the lasers won't stop them from attacking between them.

 

[Cucumber]

How do you double laser from the ledge and have the first laser be low? I've seen mango and zhu do this. My friend told me to try tapping up to jump but that seems risky since you could accidentally up-b, and it's a lot easier to just straight up miss the input. Also I don't even see how tap jumping would help. How do you guys go about double lasering like this?

Claw grip for double lasers is amazing. I learned to drop with down, jump with by index finger hitting Y, and laser with thumb on B. Using claw double lasers you can get the first laser so low that it doesn't even go above the ledge and goes into the stage .

I've found that claw gets the lowest lasers. Claw is also great for low reverse double lasers or runoff double lasers catching spacies side b to ledge.

 

[SalaMenace]

ultimately you don't want the lasers to go that low anyway. You usually want them as high as possible while still hitting the opponent so you can stuff their jump while also preventing them from moving forward through them.

What's been happening to me is a Fox will look like they are far away, but then as soon as I drop from ledge they will charge in with a running upsmash, which seems to avoid the higher laser. I rarely have people try to approach with an aerial in that situation

Claw grip for double lasers is amazing. I learned to drop with down, jump with by index finger hitting Y, and laser with thumb on B. Using claw double lasers you can get the first laser so low that it doesn't even go above the ledge and goes into the stage .

I've found that claw gets the lowest lasers. Claw is also great for low reverse double lasers or runoff double lasers catching spacies side b to ledge.

Do you always use the claw crip? Or do you just switch to that grip when you go for lasers off the ledge?

 

[Cucumber]

What's been happening to me is a Fox will look like they are far away, but then as soon as I drop from ledge they will charge in with a running upsmash, which seems to avoid the higher laser. I rarely have people try to approach with an aerial in that situation



Do you always use the claw crip? Or do you just switch to that grip when you go for lasers off the ledge?

I just switch to claw for double lasers

 

[capusa27]

Hey, Dr Peepee and everyone!

I just found a super interesting article that states how to deal with Yoshi's perfect ledgestall!

The information is from r/ssbm:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/77o0x4/a_cool_and_unique_way_to_punish_yoshis_ledgestall/

I just thought people would want to know this since it can be very frustrating and annoying to deal with the ledgestall.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh neat I never really knew what to do about it but I always figured it was at least a little vulnerable so I could Dsmash him or something but this is way easier.

 

[SalaMenace]

Can someone talk me through the puff matchup? Right now I just shoot a bunch of lasers and throw out aerials if they get close, but I find it really hard to space these properly since puff can drift so far, and bair reaches so far. And when I'm on the edge of the stage, they can just throw out a wall of backairs and I feel like I can't do anything about it.

DI'ing upthrow is also really hard since you have to do it before they actually throw you, and it's really fast. Should I be predicting when they grab me, or do I just need better reaction?

Also recovering is difficult. If you ever side b on stage they get an easy rest of fmash at high %, if you ever start to firebird they can just jump out and kill you, so your only option is side b to ledge, but if you do that every time they can easily predict and cover that option too.

I'm also curious to hear what you guys think are the best stages for Falco in this matchup. I kind of like FD cause it just makes it simple and the puff can't go on platforms. I also think Yoshi's is nice since you can kill puff easier off the top.

And last thing, what are the best ways to actually kill puff? Like obviously there's Fmash, downtilt, and bair at high %, but how exactly do you set yourself up to land these moves?

 

[OnVinyl]

Hey, new here.

I was reading some of the older posts and was hoping Dr Peepee could elaborate on the platform fighting against Marth he mentioned here

On YS and kind of on FoD you can use platforms to fight but of course Marth will always be close enough to at least threaten you. From the top platform Falco can fall really quickly and that can help him get bigger moves out. Even so, Marth is a matchup you usually want to stick to the ground for whenever possible.

and here

Going high is good, and can even be good vs Marth(especially on YS/maybe FoD) but for the most part I tend not to recommend it since people mess it up. Falco is the best character after Fox of abusing platforms to fight so you're doing it right, but you just have to beware of Marths hedging their bet that you won't come in and then follow you up, or reposition after you move up or whatever.

I know you said that sticking to the ground is the best plan, but sometimes landing on platforms seems inevitable and when that happens I'm usually at a loss on how to come down. The best I can do usually is wait until Marth whiffs an up tilt or up air and then drop down and dair him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can see Westballz doing it some, but basically WD/runoff aerial or laser from top platform can be strong against Marth since Marth can trouble getting into position to punish just right, and on YS he can't always back up enough to avoid Bair from top platform. From side platforms you can do a little of the same but it's more SH off aerial/laser vs runoff/drop through laser(or aerial or land into doing one of those two). This will happen more often for me since I can use side platforms to avoid any possible PS'd laser if I think it could happen and then play the new position if they try to rush in afterward or might want to run in to Fair me since I'm higher up. It plays on Falco's fall speed and big hitboxes from below as well as FF and drift timings and combinations that make punishing hard even as Marth.

Yeah to make it more simple, if you're sitting on a top platform and he's below you, then waiting for him to whiff or faking with runoff DJs or wavelands back onto platform or going to side platform can give you the Marth lag you need to come down and attack or gain positional advantage.

 

[Bones0]

If anyone has trouble with Yoshi, I consider myself pretty good at the mu, and my netplay session vs. Peanutphobia got streamed so it might be worth checking out. I'm going for some goofy stuff sometimes, but if you want an example of how to properly deal with Yoshi's parry, armor, and shield dropping, it's a decent reference point. The biggest thing is paying attention to the timing mixups.

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184372640

 

[OnVinyl]

Awesome, thanks! I think a big part of my problem was that I would sit in shield on top plat out of fear instead of actively baiting moves out like you said.

Also, with side plats I would normally get down with sh laser, so throwing in drop through lasers would be a good mix up (assuming I don't see the opportunity to aerial).

 

[StrayDog]

Can someone talk me through the puff matchup? Right now I just shoot a bunch of lasers and throw out aerials if they get close, but I find it really hard to space these properly since puff can drift so far, and bair reaches so far. And when I'm on the edge of the stage, they can just throw out a wall of backairs and I feel like I can't do anything about it.

DI'ing upthrow is also really hard since you have to do it before they actually throw you, and it's really fast. Should I be predicting when they grab me, or do I just need better reaction?

Also recovering is difficult. If you ever side b on stage they get an easy rest of fmash at high %, if you ever start to firebird they can just jump out and kill you, so your only option is side b to ledge, but if you do that every time they can easily predict and cover that option too.

I'm also curious to hear what you guys think are the best stages for Falco in this matchup. I kind of like FD cause it just makes it simple and the puff can't go on platforms. I also think Yoshi's is nice since you can kill puff easier off the top.

And last thing, what are the best ways to actually kill puff? Like obviously there's Fmash, downtilt, and bair at high %, but how exactly do you set yourself up to land these moves?

As a disclaimer, I don't have the most experience in the Puff matchup but I have had pretty reasonable success with the general praxis of trying to stay in one of three areas. In order of preference:
1) above Puff
2) below Puff
3) too far away for her to hit me at all
Typically I start out by lasering to force her into the air since if she tries wavedashing around under the lasers she is risking eating a dair. Most puffs will try to float around above my short hop height, and I respond to that by either going to side platforms and trying to short hop aerial her or going to top platforms and doing run off or fall through aerials. If Puff has been rising to contest your platform movement, my best response has been faking going to a platform and then going to the ground and getting under her with up tilts or short hop up airs. Basically, you want to do everything you can to never be horizontal with Puff imo. If you use this strategy you will also be much less vulnerable to grabs because you will spend more time on platforms or in the air where it is much harder for Puff to grab you. The only time Puff will grab you is with shield grabs most of the time, and if you have Puff shielding a lot then I feel like you're winning.

My stage preference in order is:
Yoshi's (obviously) because you can gimp Puff pretty consistently
Battlefield, it's mid sized and has a really high top platform and pretty high side platforms which are great for making Puff overcommit with her slow vertical movement.
Dreamland, I don't think it's that bad. Puff lives longer but you also benefit quite a bit from the extra space and the really tall platforms.
Pokemon, lots of room to run away and the transformations are often quite beneficial, but there is no top platform which I find annoying. The low ceiling makes it nice to kill with up airs, or on certain transformations shine gimps
FoD, it's small so your movement is kind of choked down and it's easier for Puff to threaten side platforms without overcommitting
FD, pretty much hate it because I'm so reliant on platforms in this MU, it seems really easy for Puff to just hover around and keep eating up stage and very hard to threaten her from above or below.

For kill moves, I usually just end up killing with nair or bair edgeguards, dair launch into up air, jab into nair or bair, etc. Sometimes I kill with dtilt or fsmash if I get a tech chase, but I don't go for it frequently. Falco is not like Fox where he kills Puff really early with strong kill moves and kill setups. Often I am killing Puff around 120-140%. However, I think that Falco has certain advantages over Fox in this MU, such as his amazing full hop which can be used for edgeguarding and for slipperiness, and his fairly strong combo proclivity against Puff. At mid percents you can do dair > dair for easy tech chases and rack up huge damage and combo into any aerial. Also Falco's up tilt is larger and can really mess up Puff if you have her cornered and on the ground (you can catch her trying to jump over you or get into the air. Also lasers are not to be underestimated. While Fox's are generally considered broken in this MU, Falco's still do the thing they do in every matchup in that they force Puff above or below you (which are better positions for you.)

As for recovering, I usually have pretty good luck recovering high, especially if I can do an upward angled up B onto a side platform or a side B edge cancel. You can double jump like you're gonna go for a side B edge cancel and then fast fall and side B to the ledge instead. Also learning to shorten would probably help against Puffs who like to wait on stage for your side B. Basically just mix up high/low recoveries a lot because Puff is not very fast vertically so she kind of has to make half a read to cover one or the other.

If anyone with more experience wants to comment and tell me if I'm on the right track or if I have gotten things wrong, that would be most appreciated.

 

[Squidster]

Just wanna share something, I labbed out a specific anti marth chaingrab thing the other day


If Marth does Uthrow at low % (like 0-15%) and misses the regrab (because of slight DI behind or just cause he missed) then shining out is a frame perfect input before you tech, which is why it’s so common to see falcos get thrown up, then just tech back into Marths arms at low %. Also if you full DI either way then you actually can’t jump out before having to tech, so you have to no DI or slight DI either way.


While shining Marth may be optimal, frame perfect things are inherently inconsistent so I prefer to double jump out with the control stick for the 3 frame buffer which makes it really easy to get out and if Marth misses the regrab then you can probably fall on his head with a dair anyways.


This also makes it easier to not get locked out of your tech window since I know I’ve definitely been Uthrown then I try to tech but he does a ****ty Utilt below 20% and I get tech trapped and miss a tech or something. With this tho I just try to buffer jump after doing slight DI behind repeatedly so I’m not locking my tech window out.


The biggest downside if that if they read it they could Uthrow > sh Uair or something and catch you with no jump, I’ve seen m2k do this to sfat before (and probably to plenty of other people) and it leads to a brutal easier punish since you have no jump.

 

[Bones0]

Just wanna share something, I labbed out a specific anti marth chaingrab thing the other day


If Marth does Uthrow at low % (like 0-15%) and misses the regrab (because of slight DI behind or just cause he missed) then shining out is a frame perfect input before you tech, which is why it’s so common to see falcos get thrown up, then just tech back into Marths arms at low %. Also if you full DI either way then you actually can’t jump out before having to tech, so you have to no DI or slight DI either way.


While shining Marth may be optimal, frame perfect things are inherently inconsistent so I prefer to double jump out with the control stick for the 3 frame buffer which makes it really easy to get out and if Marth misses the regrab then you can probably fall on his head with a dair anyways.


This also makes it easier to not get locked out of your tech window since I know I’ve definitely been Uthrown then I try to tech but he does a ****ty Utilt below 20% and I get tech trapped and miss a tech or something. With this tho I just try to buffer jump after doing slight DI behind repeatedly so I’m not locking my tech window out.


The biggest downside if that if they read it they could Uthrow > sh Uair or something and catch you with no jump, I’ve seen m2k do this to sfat before (and probably to plenty of other people) and it leads to a brutal easier punish since you have no jump.

What ports did you use to test? If Falco was the lower port number it might be a 2-3 frame window if the ports are swapped. In either case, I recommend going for the shine and tap jumping. It option selects either JCing the shine or jumping out.

Actually, that last part doesn't seem feasible at the lower percents you're talking about. One option that seems promising is to wiggle out so you regular land. I'll have to do some more testing to see if you can spotdodge or do anything useful if you empty land when he tries to regrab.

 

[Bones0]

Red text is specific to: Falco (P1) vs. Marth (P2)
Green text is specific to: Marth (P1) vs. Falco (P2)
White text is true regardless of port.


0% (Slight DI)
- Falco is actionable for 1 frame before hitting the ground.
- Marth has a 2-frame window to turn around grab.
- Marth has a 1-frame window to turn around grab.

0% (Full DI)
- Falco is forced to tech.
- Marth has a 1-frame window to grab DI away.
- Marth cannot regrab DI behind.


13% (Slight DI)
- Falco is actionable for 1 frame before hitting the ground.
- Falco is actionable for 2 frames before hitting the ground.
- Marth has a 4-frame window to turn around grab.

13% (Full DI)
- Falco is forced to tech.
- Math has a 2-frame window to turn around grab.
- Marth has a 4-frame window to grab DI away.



Hopefully that's all accurate. I had to swap ports a couple times because I wasn't perfectly organized with my testing order. The 2 main things to take away from this are:
1. Port priority doesn't make it easier for Falco to act out of Marth's uthrow at 0%, but it does at 13% and may therefore impact earlier percents.
2. Port priority doesn't affect the leniency for Marth's regrab, only Falco's escapes.

It's also worth mentioning that there are instances where if Falco wiggles out or does an attack that auto cancels, it gives Marth more leniency in case he grabbed late because he ends up just sitting there in 4 frames of landing lag. Of course, if Marth grabs too early so that he gets no input or waits for the tech to tech chase, empty landing as Falco can give you a free shine.

 

[Squidster]

I knew I was forgetting something lol thanks for the extra details

 

[smileblade]

Hello, I'm having a lot of trouble as falco in the corner. Usually after some neutral exchanges, I sometimes find myself in the corner and thats when my opponents immediately start pressuring me. Against fox players, they would full hop and then react to whatever I do. Also against puffs and peaches, they would float at a position diagonal to me and I cannot seem to find a way out. Any advice for these scenarios?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't panic and only look for a way out. Many times you can hit people and reverse the situation or keep them from coming in more with laser/Bair/Utilt since they want to hurry and take advantage of you being cornered. You can still laser under platforms which is pretty safe, you can FH in place and drift Dair/laser which is a really strong mixup or dash FH to a top platform or just to get out(you can also DJ backward and the opponent has to respect falling Dair, giving you more space, etc). Basically stay calm and examine what they're doing to beat you. Foxes you can outrange, same with Puff though you may need to work on positioning more to do so against her. Peach and Puff you can jump over pretty easily just don't make it obvious and mix in other options.

 

[Bones0]

Hello, I'm having a lot of trouble as falco in the corner. Usually after some neutral exchanges, I sometimes find myself in the corner and thats when my opponents immediately start pressuring me. Against fox players, they would full hop and then react to whatever I do. Also against puffs and peaches, they would float at a position diagonal to me and I cannot seem to find a way out. Any advice for these scenarios?

Depending on how far away they are, WLing onto the side plat is often a safe option. Ideally, you should be getting on the side plats before you get cornered by Peach/Puff so that your FH to top plat is safer and you're harder to reach in general. Peach/Puff are so slow you can honestly just FH and Phantasm ledgecancel off the top plat to escape the corner. As long as they're not already in the air, they won't be able to get high enough to hit you.

The other big thing is to learn to ledgedash. When I'm confident in my ledgedashes, I have no problem WDing onto ledge because I know I can use the invul to regain stage or escape to top plat safely. They have to respect your space when you prove to them you're capable of converting off ledgedashes.

 

[roboticphish]

2. SDI'ing to a top platform is a great way to break the punish. You can see Armada do it with Fox. Bones talked about the up vs down mixup but I personally think going up as much as possible is just best. You break the combo and don't have to worry about Fsmash now.

I have two followup questions for this:

First, when should you always DI up? I was looking over the marth CG thread, and it's my understanding that Marth wants uptilts somewhere in the 32 - 38% range; should you always be DI'ing slight behind Marth prior to this % as per B0nes' followup test? Or are there other mixups Marth can get away with to take advantage of your DI? (besides fthrow regrab at low %s)

Second, once you're onto a platform, side or top, and the Marth starts covering the tech options with up-airs and up-tilts, which direction should I be SDI'ing and/or DI'ing in order to get out of the ensuing followups (or at least get me in an actionable state)?

Also, as a technical question, if you consider the control stick to be a circle, approximately what degree should you be holding the stick in order to get slight DI behind on his up-throw?

 

[Bones0]

I have two followup questions for this:

First, when should you always DI up? I was looking over the marth CG thread, and it's my understanding that Marth wants uptilts somewhere in the 32 - 38% range; should you always be DI'ing slight behind Marth prior to this % as per B0nes' followup test? Or are there other mixups Marth can get away with to take advantage of your DI? (besides fthrow regrab at low %s)

Second, once you're onto a platform, side or top, and the Marth starts covering the tech options with up-airs and up-tilts, which direction should I be SDI'ing and/or DI'ing in order to get out of the ensuing followups (or at least get me in an actionable state)?

Also, as a technical question, if you consider the control stick to be a circle, approximately what degree should you be holding the stick in order to get slight DI behind on his up-throw?

PP was talking about SDIing up during Marth's FD combos, not the grab itself. DIing his uthrow up or down has almost no impact on your trajectory. For the first or second utilt I will SDI down and DI down+in to go as low as possible. You can frequently avoid the regrab after the utilt this way. Once you get hit by a utilt however, I agree with PP that you sort of just need to accept that you're going to be comboed to 90%+ and just avoid being sent off stage via fair combos or tipper.

DIing Marth's plat combos:
https://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/

The control stick gate is octagonal, but the degrees are still calculated like you would see with a regular circle. A good standard spot to hold your stick to slight DI is between the bottom and bottom-left or bottom-right notches. That's what I used when testing in my previous post, and it seemed to dodge Marth's forward grab just fine. Your best bet is to use a variety of angles to get a feel for where each one sends you, and that can allow you to make subtle DI mixups where the Marth can tell you DIed slightly behind him, but not far enough to justify turning around. Kadano has a great image that shows the difference between these two throw animations, and it's honestly just impossible for the human eye to tell the difference from a still image, let alone in the heat of the moment. If you try to ride this edge as closely as possible, you can even create a pseudo-random effect where even YOU don't know where you're going. That might be useful if you feel like the Marth is reading your DI mixups instead of reacting.

 

[SalaMenace]

I made a very amateurish falco practice routine video mainly for myself, but thought I might as well post it here for whoever might be interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-pZH4kc6D0&feature=youtu.be

 

[SalaMenace]

Alright so I've noticed that when I'm above an opponent, either from full jumping, coming down from a platform, or whatever, I can dair instantly to stop them from jumping up and intercepting my attack, but if they just sit there in shield, I get grabbed or punished somehow. But if I go for a late dair so that I can shine immediately after, they can just jump up and hit me. Is this scenario just a 50/50 guessing game? Or do I have any better options? Should I just not approach from above?

 

[Bones0]

Alright so I've noticed that when I'm above an opponent, either from full jumping, coming down from a platform, or whatever, I can dair instantly to stop them from jumping up and intercepting my attack, but if they just sit there in shield, I get grabbed or punished somehow. But if I go for a late dair so that I can shine immediately after, they can just jump up and hit me. Is this scenario just a 50/50 guessing game? Or do I have any better options? Should I just not approach from above?

You can dair early and space it so you land out of range of their OoS options. You don't always have to land close enough to shine.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright so I've noticed that when I'm above an opponent, either from full jumping, coming down from a platform, or whatever, I can dair instantly to stop them from jumping up and intercepting my attack, but if they just sit there in shield, I get grabbed or punished somehow. But if I go for a late dair so that I can shine immediately after, they can just jump up and hit me. Is this scenario just a 50/50 guessing game? Or do I have any better options? Should I just not approach from above?

You can get in range to where you both have to choose and DJ/go to a platform to see what they would have done. You can get in position to beat their options with Dair and waveland. You can do what Bones said. You can drift and FF to change timing and spacing to mess them up as well(including fading back extra and lasering). Just play around with your options.

 

[Squidster]

This isn't always practical, but it's possible to do a Dair that hits the top of their shield super late and then auto cancels, you get the benefits of an early Dair but its like +0 on shield (if you mess up a tiny bit and don’t end up hitting their shield it ends up functioning like a tomahawk which is still good.)


I have a few setups for it like instant dj, instant Dair, instant ff. sh from side platform Dair and then ff basically as you pass the platform. There’s probably more and honestly it’s pretty dope when it works.

 

[Bones0]

This isn't always practical, but it's possible to do a Dair that hits the top of their shield super late and then auto cancels, you get the benefits of an early Dair but its like +0 on shield (if you mess up a tiny bit and don’t end up hitting their shield it ends up functioning like a tomahawk which is still good.)


I have a few setups for it like instant dj, instant Dair, instant ff. sh from side platform Dair and then ff basically as you pass the platform. There’s probably more and honestly it’s pretty dope when it works.

I knew the first method could be used to beat Fox shine OoS, but I never thought about doing it from side plats. That sounds really good.

 

[SalaMenace]

So I'm starting to get better at ledgedashing, but I'm not sure what to do after I ledgedash on stage. I usually ledgedash and then panic roll towards the middle cause I don't want to get hit, but there are times where it's better to just attack right out of ledgedashing, right? When I watch Foxes ledgedash I see them upsmash, but that's probably not as good of an option for Falco, so I'm wondering what I should be going for most of the time.

Also I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who keeps answering all my questions. I really appreciate it, and hopefully one day I'll be good enough to actually contribute back myself.