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Sometimes I SH under the plat, shine stall, then DJ on reaction to their option and hit them with an aerial. This sometimes yields suboptimal followups, but trying to actually react to TIP/stand with FH shine is too hard for me, at least for now. You can also shine the TIP/MT spot on the plat, then DJ WL on to cover their TR. They'll have time to do something, but at least get a grab their shield vs. bait out their attack/movement mixup.
I can react and jump shine waveland tech in place/get up in place or GUA but I'm pretty sure Foxes can ASDI down and out to get off of platforms if you do that during their tech rolls to either side. Sometimes I Bair them so they get pushed toward the edge and take a lot of damage, and I'm wondering if you can waveland down Fsmash tech toward the edge reliably(you could mix this with Utilt maybe). Tech roll into the stage would be the hardest to reliably punish hard, but the Westballz Bthrow DA is an alright start. Maybe Utilt can work there if they're DI'ing the way they are? I don't know but I just realized I need to lab this out so I'll write it down, thanks.
This assumes you can get the setup with Utilt reliably, but yeah this is pretty cool I like it. Saved.
I have a laser sequence I've always done since I first started playing Falco that really helps for mastering the types of laser variants PP mentioned. Starting on one side of the stage (longer stages are usually easier), I will go to the other and keep going back and forth as desired. It goes something like this (RSHL = reverse short hop laser):
I'm very glad that you brought this up. I recently transitioned from Marth (not sure if I'll stick to the bird though), and this aspect of Falco's game was the first thing that stuck out to me. As you can imagine, winning neutral with a grab while playing Marth tends to lead to much more predictable outcomes. Even a stray fair with Marth is often easier to convert off of than a hit with Falco. The fact that Falco's pressure is far more "active" also exacerbates the problem because I will often get a hit mid-pressure without actually anticipating that the hit would occur. This makes it even harder to hit big punishes.
It's possible to fh / dj waveland into reaction tech chase and cover every single option in most scenarios.
I struggle dealing with fox's options as well, but I find that foxes generally run up shield when then expect falco to do an early aerial (to beat out their approach.) I think the key is recognizing that although fox has many options, he has to pick one. Staying one step ahead in the yomi game is super crucial. If you have been beating out some of his options with early aerials (early dair grab is nice) then, at least at my level, they will generally try to feint situations in which your early aerials have been winning and then run up shield or do an early aerial to beat you to the punch. I think conventional wisdom says that AC bair in place is just a good option in general for beating both of these. If you do it from outside of its max range and then fade in you can get a safe shine on shield if they run up shield, and it will always beat short hop dair and either beat or trade with nair. It loses hard to cc though, but generally people will not be running up and ccing if you have been beating them with dairs. As for beating drill, what about wavedash back? It's pretty narrow, if you hold down while WDing back you should also CC nair. If they're going for super deep drills you can shield instead (or just nair/bair which should beat it clean.)Dr Peepee how should I respond to a fox that comes in with run up > shield by default ?
He's more experienced and a good deal faster than me so atm I struggle to establish/maintain good control over him, which lets him pick his spots and force interactions at will most of the time.
I get more and more focused on finding my openings from a read on my opponent's movement (which I can pressure or influence with my own movement/lasers). This leads good players to look for scenarios and angles of attack for which my answers are weaker, which I understand and it motivates me to learn new tactics and clean up my gameplay. But right now I'm in a detrimental stalemate with fox (and DD heavy chars like Marth/Falcon) run up > shield.
I can't predict the spacing at which he's gonna shield, so everything I do about it is sketchy and puts me off balance (or straight up gets me killed).
-laser : he dashes in from close enough to threaten nair, and even when he does run up shield often he shieldgrabs me before I can do anything after landing. Should I focus on getting a good FF so I can be at a frame advantage more often ? Fadeback laser seems better to me than laser in place there (I should be out of range of OoS options) but even then I don't know how to capitalize on this read (he's ready for the immediate counter-attack there) and I gave him ground for free. Should I look out if he takes the laser/shields it ? What can I go for when either happens ?
-shieldstop > dair in place : this is what I do when I think he's gonna run in generally. I can fadeback at the peak of my SH if needed, and if it hits I can get a big reward. I prefer this as a defensive move to utilt and AC bair, which I prefer as anti-air barrage. But the thing is I can't afford to delay the dair very much, in case he just nairs/grabs right away, so when he runs up shield at the right spot, I hit his shield super high and give him a free punish. Do you think this is a poor option when I know he wants to run up shield ? Should I try and get a super fadeback, or a crossup ? Would you risk tomahakw>grab/shine-grab in this scenario ?
-wait/DD : I'm not confident to just let fox get in my space like that. He drill>shines me into techchase instantly anyway.
-I just thought about WD back when he runs in like that. If he shields I can wait for him and threaten his options (except roll/WD back), and to punish me for it he'd have to read me big time. I would WD there because Falco's dash is too short/slow to get me out of harm's way typically.
Oh and what do I do to discourage fox to just drill me when I'm on the ground ? This move is annoying me like hell right now
Yeah doing lower lasers would help you a lot, and against Fox you can shine/JC shine or jab out of that to have advantage. You can also dash if you're unsure or grab and it's a tight timing for them to do anything about it.
He's more experienced and a good deal faster than me so atm I struggle to establish/maintain good control over him, which lets him pick his spots and force interactions at will most of the time.
I get more and more focused on finding my openings from a read on my opponent's movement (which I can pressure or influence with my own movement/lasers). This leads good players to look for scenarios and angles of attack for which my answers are weaker, which I understand and it motivates me to learn new tactics and clean up my gameplay. But right now I'm in a detrimental stalemate with fox (and DD heavy chars like Marth/Falcon) run up > shield.
I can't predict the spacing at which he's gonna shield, so everything I do about it is sketchy and puts me off balance (or straight up gets me killed).
-laser : he dashes in from close enough to threaten nair, and even when he does run up shield often he shieldgrabs me before I can do anything after landing. Should I focus on getting a good FF so I can be at a frame advantage more often ? Fadeback laser seems better to me than laser in place there (I should be out of range of OoS options) but even then I don't know how to capitalize on this read (he's ready for the immediate counter-attack there) and I gave him ground for free. Should I look out if he takes the laser/shields it ? What can I go for when either happens ?
-shieldstop > dair in place : this is what I do when I think he's gonna run in generally. I can fadeback at the peak of my SH if needed, and if it hits I can get a big reward. I prefer this as a defensive move to utilt and AC bair, which I prefer as anti-air barrage. But the thing is I can't afford to delay the dair very much, in case he just nairs/grabs right away, so when he runs up shield at the right spot, I hit his shield super high and give him a free punish. Do you think this is a poor option when I know he wants to run up shield ? Should I try and get a super fadeback, or a crossup ? Would you risk tomahakw>grab/shine-grab in this scenario ?
-wait/DD : I'm not confident to just let fox get in my space like that. He drill>shines me into techchase instantly anyway.
-I just thought about WD back when he runs in like that. If he shields I can wait for him and threaten his options (except roll/WD back), and to punish me for it he'd have to read me big time. I would WD there because Falco's dash is too short/slow to get me out of harm's way typically.
Oh and what do I do to discourage fox to just drill me when I'm on the ground ? This move is annoying me like hell right now
Dr Peepee
how should I respond to a fox that comes in with run up > shield by default ?
Laser him until he approaches, then stuff his approaches between the lasers with approaches of your own. If he just wants to sit and wait for you to approach, then you can laser indefinitely, or push him towards the corner and approach when he no longer has any room to retreat.
You have to play a push/pull style against Marth in my experience. I find that short hop dair handily beats dtilt and dash attack. This is your push. To get Marth to pick these options, you have to "pull." This involves shooting lasers and feinting approaches with ambiguous movement until Marth feels like he has to reach for you. Marth's most popular tool for walling is his fair, which is not active for very long, and I often find that I can squeeze in a dair or a nair if he whiffs a fair while close to the ground (right as he is landing.) I find that I can do it semi-consistently by faking an approach and then dash dancing or waiting just outside of his fair range and then immediately going in. Don't try to punish rising fair, you can't, and it's often unworth trying to punish falling fair if you think you were too slow because they will just land and DD you or just fsmash. If Marth does bad fairs (moving towards you) they are very punishable with run up shield or wavedashing inside their tipper range and CCing. You can get shield grabs, off of shielding or dtilt off of CCing.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but you can slightly hold down on the stick and not fall through I think. Either that or go for the partial down into full press. I'm sure someone here knows all the specifics of it though.
For starters, it sounds like you think the starting space in the matchup is too close to the opponent. I'd like for you to consider threatening range, or the default position in matchups more. Falco's longest ranged threat is his dash SH Nair, so he needs to be a bit farther away then that since DD mixes up your timing and in order to be safe an opponent would need to be past that. Then you need to know your opponents'. That range, the intersection between both of your threatening ranges(or really the longest one between the two of you) is where you start. You'll see at that range you have to laser and can actually plan your approaches as Mango and I do. From there we can fake our SH Nair approaches by getting a little closer and dashing in(which carries our threat of SH Nair) and this forces Falcon to throw moves early. Then that's a free punish for us.
Whether you fall through or not is determined by whether you're still holding down on the 4th frame of shine. To not fall through, you have to allow the stick to reset to neutral before then. Tilting can help achieve this, but isn't necessary. It's important to note that if you hit the opponent or their shield with shine, you undergo hitlag which makes this much easier. Hitlag gives you extra frames to release the stick so you will notice shining on plats is much easier when you hit people.
Based on what I saw, Mango seems to space close enough that Falcon's dash SHFFL goes too far, but far enough that SHFFL in place/OoS is not far enough. In this range, he has more freedom to laser, and if S2J wants to commit to hitting the laser preemptively, he's at risk of getting his aerials stuff by bair/utilt. The weird thing is that after game 1, S2J seemed to become so uncomfortable in this range that he started playing more grounded/defensive, which allowed Mango to just approach continuously. He would start aerial shield pressure or chase his escapes with approaching lasers.
I sort of mentioned this recently in the thread, but from your description, it sounds like you could gain a lot from focusing on your laser game. Marth doesn't have any good options to immediately punish consecutive lasers if he isn't within range. He can't FH aerial like Fox or float over them like Peach. As a result, having lasers out automatically creates that pressure you feel you need. Once you've established that pressure, it's a matter of figuring out how to land your hits. One of the ways to do this is to whiff punish. If Marth expects an approach after a laser, he is likely to throw out a utilt or fair OoS to catch you, and it sounds like you're relatively well versed in this area. The catch is, of course, that Marth won't expect an approach if you never approach. This is where Marths that just spam run up grab, dash attack, or fsmash tend to get success, especially if you're not lasering properly. You can approach with aerials (stuffs attacks OoS or initiates shield pressure) or lasers (catches backward movement and is also safe on shield), and if you think they might approach, don't be afraid to do defensive aerials. Fadeaway dair or dash back SH bair are great for catching those run up grabs that Marths fiend for. You can intentionally leave gaps in your lasering to bait these types of approaches, or you can catch them moving in between lasers by reacting to the fact that they approached and grabbing or dashing away. Grabbing is good because they're right in front of you with a laser in their face, but dash away can help if they are good at powershielding as it option selects SDI away, and Marth's usually go for grab after this type of forward movement anyway, which you should be able to whiff punish as long as you're expecting it since you will be pretty close.
Take anything I say with a grain of salt 'cause I'm really not that good but I find going to platforms against Peach to be hilariously good. Peach's up air seems pretty bad in neutral and her fair is too slow to use reliably for trades. You can laser her from the side platform, jump off the side platform into an aerial (if they're floating they can't CC nair so doing a nair above them and then FFing through them sets up combos nicely. You can jump off the side platform like you're gonna aerial and then dj waveland on the top platform, which is great against Peach in my experience 'cause her vertical movement is so slow and you can easily react to anything she does to try to threaten the top platform. From the top platform you can run off/slide off/fall through FF aerial, jump to a side platform, jump and fall through a side platform (which will put peach above you if she moves to threaten the side platform), run off/slide off/fall through DJ waveland to bait moves, come down with laser if they're trying to camp under side platforms. Another way to attack peach under side platforms is jump off, fast fall through the plat, aerial shine, DJ waveland.
I was where you are relatively recently. I started playing like a year ago and only just started getting good, valuable results from analysis like 3-4 months ago. It took a number of realizations before I really started seeing the game in a way that made sense, and I gained a lot of understanding from the game from reading what PPMD had to say in this thread. The biggest thing that improved my understanding of the game was what PPMD had to say about "threatened ranges."
I've thought about doing this myself and the little I messed with it it looked good. I say keep on with it.
FH/DJ laser onto platform(or falling on FD) hits Peach float height well because she has to always float slightly above side platform height to effectively threaten you. You can also do low SHL on platforms to hit her. If she sees this coming she will drop and you can follow with runoff laser or sh laser into her or laser on platform to keep her from jumping back up, and so on.
Analysis is a great habit, so I'd definitely recommend starting it ASAP. It's easiest to look at your own stuff and people that are a bit better than you up to the lower end of top 100 so don't worry too much about Mango or Westballz right now unless you think you find some stuff you can directly use that's straightforward. The simplest thing I advise for people doing analysis is looking for a hit and trying to figure out why it happened. Basically come up with theories and see what patterns develop. You may have to look a little before the hit for answers. Really the most important thing is to DO IT and then check your progress and understanding as you refine the skill. It's something to be trained like anything else.
