Ambisinister
Smash Rookie
Who you think is the best example of a falco that doesn't over-DD? If any exist. I'm having trouble visualizing a falco that only uses 1-2 dashes between decisions without being overly dependent on lasers.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
You can laser after that, and in fact that's often one of the better options to do. Mango DDs very little and there have been some sets where I did a little.
TheChocolateLava
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2014
- Messages
- 31
This question is probably a low-level concern, but how do you guys start the process of having your play reflect a gameplan instead of your impulses? Like, I do a lot of things in game that I know I shouldn't be doing, but it's really hard to control, especially with several years of "brain turned off" falco play ingrained in my muscle memory.
When I do analysis and learn about interactions I see things that I'm doing that are bad and can start formulating ideas of what mixups to play in various scenarios, but when I sit down to play (in tournament especially) I'm very likely to forget about that stuff and do what my autopilot tells me to do. I guess it's a question about self control to some extent but this seems like a common falco problem and I'm wondering what you guys have done to stop playing like this.
I guess in short: I want to play one way, but I actually play another way, and I feel like my learning on paper/in my head is not transferring to my tournament play very efficiently at all.
When I do analysis and learn about interactions I see things that I'm doing that are bad and can start formulating ideas of what mixups to play in various scenarios, but when I sit down to play (in tournament especially) I'm very likely to forget about that stuff and do what my autopilot tells me to do. I guess it's a question about self control to some extent but this seems like a common falco problem and I'm wondering what you guys have done to stop playing like this.
I guess in short: I want to play one way, but I actually play another way, and I feel like my learning on paper/in my head is not transferring to my tournament play very efficiently at all.
You need to practice like you play. If you want to do a couple different things in a situation, put a cpu/person/imaginary player in a spot and do the mixup differently to get new muscle memory. Doing this type of thing over and over with how you actually want to move is basically what shadowboxing is.
You can also supplement this with visualizing the situation and doing the motions in your head.
You can also supplement this with visualizing the situation and doing the motions in your head.
Ultrasatanicus
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2013
- Messages
- 21
I'm curious why people don't use shinelands on Battlefield and Dreamland. I've only ever actually seen myself use them, and I've found a lot of success. The general answer I get is "it's too difficult" but I don't think people actually practice it. I can get it +85-90% of the time and I could probably practice it more to get even more consistent. It seems to work great within the meta and you can cover yourself very well if you do end up missing it. Is there anyone here who thinks it's not practical/beneficial? If so, why?
Well I certainly don't like messing it up but I'll admit I haven't practiced it much either. I guess with shield dropping both shine land and shine waveland aren't safe, but maybe spaced shine dj is safer than shine land due to no jumpsquat? And if you hit with shine waveland I think you could reposition faster for another hit if you needed to move as opposed to shine land(though if they just go up then shine land would be faster). Shine waveland would also hit sooner since you shine a little under the platform, if that ever matters. If the opponent is really off balance or can't shield drop or something then yeah shine land grab or something seems pretty good to me, but shield dropping should be fairly lenient even against shine land I'd think so I'm not sure how applicable that is either.
To me I don't see much benefit over shine waveland and any time I mess it up I'd be in a lot of trouble. Am I missing something?
To me I don't see much benefit over shine waveland and any time I mess it up I'd be in a lot of trouble. Am I missing something?
Ultrasatanicus
Smash Rookie
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- Jan 12, 2013
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- 21
The only thing you'd be missing would be that you can short hop > double jump > shineland and it's actually faster than regular shine landing (harder timing but makes it much safer on shield). When I mess up regular shineland > grab I end up shining their shield and doing a fade away double jump nair that also hits their shield. So I just fade to top platform and I'm safe. It's incredibly hard to mess up shine > waveland down and it's punishable always. Their timing is much more strict against shineland > grab and shineland > double shine. I almost never get shield drop punished for it although it is possible.
One use I've found for it is that when sheik up b's and lands on a platform at high % the only thing you can kill her with guaranteed is a shineland > full hop > double jump > up/back air! So this technique is not only a shield pressure tool, but useful for comboing and a few other niche situations.
Oh why do you fadeaway instantly? Is that because wanted to Bthrow or you just go it while you do the grab input to stay safe?
How much safer is dj shineland? That seems even riskier to get hit out of dj lol. I don't even know how (un)safe regular fh shineland is against shield drop tbh do you know? The thing is they can buffer shield drop during stun right, so ultimately if you're not at advantage and they're expecting their shield to be hit so they can shield drop, that still worries me.
That Sheik up-B punish sounds cool. I have a hard time visualizing it though, did you do it in a video I could see?
How much safer is dj shineland? That seems even riskier to get hit out of dj lol. I don't even know how (un)safe regular fh shineland is against shield drop tbh do you know? The thing is they can buffer shield drop during stun right, so ultimately if you're not at advantage and they're expecting their shield to be hit so they can shield drop, that still worries me.
That Sheik up-B punish sounds cool. I have a hard time visualizing it though, did you do it in a video I could see?
Bones0
Smash Legend
They're finicky because you have the throw trajectory and then multiple laser hitboxes. Even if you control for character, percent, and avoid SDIing, just regular DI alone can change which lasers you get hit by, if any. If you control for character and DI, small percent differences can also result in totally different KB trajectories. I recall testing uthrow KO setups on characters a long time ago, and iirc, you can uthrow the Mario Bros. and uair them after the lasers, but at specific percents within the uthrow uair combo window, the lasers would send them backwards instead of forwards, even with no change in DI.
The port issue, as I remember it, is simply that the higher numbered port player skips the first frame of hitstun after being thrown. Hopefully that's not wrong, but unfortunately I don't know the details. I'd guess Pikachu is only able to bounce off the platform with certain ports because he is getting hit by a laser a frame earlier or later after flying away.
I definitely don't over-DD since I tend to barely use it at all, but I will keep that in mind as I try to incorporate it more. I got to practice today and experimented with the dash forward WD back you use a lot and that also seemed to help by allowing me to threaten space efficiently in a way that looks similar to actual aggression. Thanks!
I think they're amazing, and I've been doing it in MDVA for so long that I sort of became known for it. I have a list of times I've used it in tournament, but it became too bothersome to keep up to date. It's good on Yoshi's too, just make sure you're not jumping from the slant. As far as PP's concerns go, I remember testing and finding that shineland shine beats shield grab, so it should beat most shield drop options in practice as long as you're close. I think the best way to mix up shield dropping would honestly just be to waveland and only shine then. They can't react to whether you shined or not, so if they shield drop at the timing they would expect a shine waveland, then waveland shine should catch them. I haven't attempted this though since I've never played anyone who consistently punished my shine wavelands (as sad as that is).
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Geez that throw stuff. I knew you could do one unit of SDI doing nothing else as Fox and wind up on the opposite side from a throw but I guess this is really a nightmare. Anything you found to be reliable or any good info you can share? If not I guess I'll try to figure something out lol. Pikachu doesn't get hit by laser in that video does he?
Glad I could help!
Isn't shield drop 2 frames, as opposed to shield grab's like 6? Why would those be similar, unless I am missing something important?
Saved some of those clips, pretty neat stuff. Did you have any uses of it in neutral? If not no worries I can figure it out.
Bones0
Smash Legend
No, I haven't seen any good info, and all of the stuff I compiled myself seems pretty unreliable ironically. lol
Pikachu gets hit by lasers in some of those scenarios, but there's at least one where he techrolls on the platform before the lasers connect.
Shield drop is definitely faster than shield grab, but you also have to account for the startup of the move. So if you are trying to shield drop bair as a spacie, it will be very close to, if not exactly the same speed as a shield grab. This is also assuming frame perfection on the part of the opponent which is not feasible because like I said, they can't react to the shine timing. Even with a 3-frame buffer for shield dropping out of shield stun, the time between when they see the shine and when the shield stun ends means they have to predict (within 3 frames) when to input the shield drop.
I don't think it has any spectacular uses in neutral, but it can give you a few more options. You can shine land and then slide off in jumpsquat to do a REALLY fast aerial, but it's extremely precise and probably isn't that much faster than a simple waveland. I'm not sure if you would consider it neutral, but I think the first example you probably saw was me using it to FH laser and recovering opponent. If you wanted to SHL from side plat height (to hit a Peach out of float, perhaps), it's probably the fastest way, and you won't have to DJ like you normally would with immediate DJ lasers. If you think of any other uses, run them by me and I can test them next time I play.
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Oh right aerial startup. Would they be able to dodge shine grab or double shine by falling through and hit you, or would your shine hit them, assuming they did react perfectly? Also I'd imagine shield drop shine startup is faster than your shine land shine since there's obviously not so much startup on shine as opposed to aerials, right?
They can react to you coming toward them though right? Plus there's the jumpsquat startup to get moving upward in the first place. It might not matter against most opponents but people could train for it. Or do you think that's not feasible?
They can react to you coming toward them though right? Plus there's the jumpsquat startup to get moving upward in the first place. It might not matter against most opponents but people could train for it. Or do you think that's not feasible?
hey
Dr Peepee
how do you handle jab in place from marth? because the way i handle it is by not engaging it lol. at least when i fight marth players who like to jab, it's almost always done at a certain kind of spacing - usually when i am in a position to cross their shield with an aerial/empty land and they are trying to prevent me from getting behind them. if 'm in that position again for whatever reason, i just play around it/shoot them to try to make them do something different. most of the time i punish what they do before or after that scenario. but if there IS a way/move to outright beat the jabs consistently that isn't really risky, i'm down to learn it
Bones0
Smash Legend
On Battlefield, Falco lands on the platform the same frame the opponent is actionable, so you can basically consider yourself -1 and extrapolate what is possible from there. Just keep in mind the opponent is in shield and Falco is in shine, so if you want to grab you'd have to spend a frame in jumpsquat while the opponent can shield grab immediately. Shineland shine will beat anything that takes 7 or more frames to come out (unless it's invincible by frame 7 ofc). Grab is 2 frames slower than shine out of shine, and doesn't have invul. It will barely lose to basic OoS options like nair OoS, and be significantly countered by shield drop aerials. Whether the shield drop itself will dodge the shine or grab will depend a lot on character and spacing, but in general I'd say it's pretty difficult to ensure either shine or grab will reach them before they fall too far through the plat. What I think really matters for this tactic is timing and reactability.
I said before Falco's shineland leaves him -1, but for comparison, if you shine on the same frame but JC immediately with a DJ instead of waiting to land, you are -10. Even in high level matches, players aren't usually shield grabbing shine wavelands on reaction, and high level Falcos often shine much earlier than they should. In terms of reactability, there seems to be a mixup that most Falcos or players in general don't think about (I could be wrong though). Simply put, Falco has a fairly wide range of timings to start his initial pressure. Just to give a specific example, let's look at Falco shine WLing vs. a shielding Sheik on a BF side plat.
Shining on frames 4-14 of Falco's FH all result in hitting Sheik's full shield. Of course, most of these aren't very useful because the higher above the plat you go, the laggier your WL will be. If you shine on the 4th airborne frame and DJ WL asap, you will be -9. If you shine on the 9th airborne frame, you will be -13. It seems like shining on frame 4 should be a no brainer, and as a default, I would agree it's the best frame to shine on. However, what happens when your opponent (who certainly can't react to anything under 15 frames) times their OoS option for the shield stun timing of a frame 4 shine and you do the frame 8 shine? Assuming they timed their option within 4 frames of the end of the shield stun they expected, they will still be in shield stun from the frame 8 shine and their attack won't come out.
I mentioned in a previous post shield dropping had a 3-frame buffer, but in true Melee fashion, I found something that contradicted what I had previously thought. According to @jackkenney1 on Twitter (source), the buffer window varies depending on the type of shield drop (Sakurai... please have mercy...). Regardless of shield drop buffer, the buffering only ensures they get the shield drop itself, and not the corresponding aerial. Not unlike buffering a jump OoS with the C-stick, the opponent still needs to time their attack based on your shield stun, which they cannot react to because it's below the human reaction time window (shine only has 10 frames of hitlag+shield stun). Just to give you a visual of how close these shine heights are, I took a quick photo:
Frame 4 (left) vs. Frame 9 (right)
So what does this mean? Simply put, humans can't punish shineland on reaction, and would have to be amazingly quick to even punish shine WL with the fastest options, like shield drop shine which is invul frame 2. They can use Falco's jump as a cue to time their read, but I think what most people do is actually just punish later than usual. I've seen Armada shield grab a Falco's shine WL, and grab is a pretty safe attack because you can option select it (i.e. if you time the grab during shield stun, you just stay shielding). However, I think in general, players ARE reacting to the shine, but that means they are doing their OoS option significantly late to the point that they will have trouble beating shine WL, and it is this type of response that gets absolutely destroyed by shineland grab. If you believe your opponent is actually just anticipating the timing of your shine, then the simplest counter would be to simply FH through them, let them do their grab/shield drop aerial, and you drop back down through the platform on top of them with an aerial of your own. Wavelanding without shining first would also be great if someone is waiting to react to the shine. You only have 10 frames of landing lag, so by the time they react to the fact that you airdodged instead of shined, you will have had plenty of time to get a shine out.
Hopefully someone that is better equipped to analyze gameplay footage frame by frame can take a look at what players do in actuality. I'm sure some players time their option based on the initial jump while others react to the shine and do their option much later. I think knowing the actual stats on this would be very enlightening as to what approach Falcos should have towards pressuring shields on platforms.
That is going to take a lot of time to sort out LOL thanks for the post Bones it's really good stuff. Also from that google doc it looks like the notch buffered shield drop is actually 5 frames out of stun which would make this easier to buffer against I'd think. Am I misreading that?
Dr Peepee
What do you think of grabbing puff a lot now?
I remember sami telling me about a discussion he had with you about how sdi would make up-throw in general irrelevant with time, and he told me you argued that holding for a split second or delaying your throw timings could mess up SDI timing and upthrow followups vs puff would stay relevant. He somewhat proved to me that it's possible to mash sdi up with puff and get over timing differences. regardless
What do you think about the revelence of upthrow vs puff considering my above paragraph?
What do you think about grabbing frequently in the match up and prioritizing going for grabs in general?
Do you think that if there aren't follow ups it's also good for momentum / is putting puff in the air beneficial compared to other characters such as marth?
Uthrow would not become irrelevant even if you got no follow up on Puff for that repeated SDI. The throw is really fast against her, meaning if you surprise her with it she won't be able to react to the grab/throw. If you just mix more Fthrow/Bthrow as well for positioning and occasionally Uthrow it would be even harder to get a good punish since she wouldn't know which was is the best to guess for DI, and if she always mashed for Uthrow then it might make her usually buffer jump out of throw lag, which would lead to more pseudo combos there at lower percents when you would normally want strong Uthrow punishes.
TheChocolateLava
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2014
- Messages
- 31
I've been working on my neutral game vs marth but I've noticed that I'm relying a lot on lasers and ceding space, which makes yoshi's/fod a nightmare. Spending my time shielding and doing aerials seems risky. Which of falco's tools do you think open up the neutral in small spaces like on yoshi's?
I'm thinking getting comfortable with CC and OoS punishes will be important for this but again I worry that I'll be trying to win out of disadvantageous positions.
I think about abusing the small stage to approach as their whiff punish options are limited, but I feel like overshooting and approaching lasers are weak to marth swinging which is already strong here.
Platforms are far too risky here so I feel like the answer is with grounded movement. But I don't think I'm threatening the right options out of dash forward?
Close quarters vs marth is scary
I'm thinking getting comfortable with CC and OoS punishes will be important for this but again I worry that I'll be trying to win out of disadvantageous positions.
I think about abusing the small stage to approach as their whiff punish options are limited, but I feel like overshooting and approaching lasers are weak to marth swinging which is already strong here.
Platforms are far too risky here so I feel like the answer is with grounded movement. But I don't think I'm threatening the right options out of dash forward?
Close quarters vs marth is scary
Sounds like you need to not always back up first of all. Maybe instead of always backing up with lasers you push forward a little as opposed to a lot with lasers, to deepen your aerial vs laser threats while changing positioning?
OOS is generally pretty bad for Falco in the matchup.
On YS and kind of on FoD you can use platforms to fight but of course Marth will always be close enough to at least threaten you. From the top platform Falco can fall really quickly and that can help him get bigger moves out. Even so, Marth is a matchup you usually want to stick to the ground for whenever possible.
OOS is generally pretty bad for Falco in the matchup.
On YS and kind of on FoD you can use platforms to fight but of course Marth will always be close enough to at least threaten you. From the top platform Falco can fall really quickly and that can help him get bigger moves out. Even so, Marth is a matchup you usually want to stick to the ground for whenever possible.
Ultrasatanicus
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2013
- Messages
- 21
One of my favorite things to do if someone is consistently shield drop punishing your shinelands/shine wavelands is to full hop shine the bottom of their shield > waveland down and bait their shield drop aerial by shielding or up tilting. Hopefully that makes sense lol
But to go off of Bones' post, they would obviously just have a read on my timing!
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MewtwoForce
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2015
- Messages
- 51
I've finally gotten back into the game. I need help with something. An approach to learning techskill that isn't bad Lol. I have no idea how to work up to things that require precise timing.
Like for example, falcos low laser. That laser input feels exactly the same as a laser input that isn't the low laser. And so i've just been stuck between getting the blank laser or a laser thats too high. I'm not sure how to distinguish.
Like for example, falcos low laser. That laser input feels exactly the same as a laser input that isn't the low laser. And so i've just been stuck between getting the blank laser or a laser thats too high. I'm not sure how to distinguish.
You read that right but the info isn't quite correct there, you actually get 6f window for notch shield drop from stun.
I usually just play around with it slowly, seeing if I can get it once. If I mess with the FF timing and laser start timing enough I usually figure it out. You probably just need to go slowly and get it consistently slow before building speed. That's the best way to practice all tech.
Okay so a 6 frame buffer window, got it thanks.
MewtwoForce
Smash Cadet
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- Aug 28, 2015
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- 51
Thanks Dr Peepee. Looks like I was over thinking the tech training hard. That's cleared a lot of misconceptions I had up. I can also tell you that without that advice I probably would have banged my head against a wall with these lasers getting nowhere for days Lol. Now I can focus on LAAAASERS aw yeah :3 <3.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
I've started practicing weak u-air to shine a lot, primarily on FD, based on what I've seen from Zhu and especially Shiz now that he's returned. I'm actually pretty confused as to how it works, usually I try to hit with the tip of the u-air briefly, but I'm not sure if that works 100% of the time or if the key is in the fast fall timing. I think it's a pretty decent combo extender on fox and sometimes falcon, but is there a better alternative or something else I could be doing?
I don't particularly like that combo extension since they can just SDI + jump out and Falco would have a hard time chasing the jump(might be able to dodge the shine or utilt with SDI too). The bit I've played with it you need to hit very low with the Uair and be FF'ing by then so they are really close to you since the first hit Uair sends them up slightly. I'd prefer just Dair'ing them or doing a full Uair(you can mix up the side to get them to hold in accidentally) or Utilt'ing/shining....it kind of depends on the situation what other tools are available.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
When you say that you can mix up the side you hit u-air on, are you saying that you can reliably hit u-air and where they travel is based on the side you hit them on? If so that's something I've never even realized, I thought it was purely DI based and reaction was the only way to follow up sort of like Falco's up throw. Do you think that u-air is underutilized versus fast fallers? I think Fox and Falcon especially have an easier time escaping after an u-air, but if you can manipulate their DI I think it could be a good way to build damage. It's a pretty decent tool against floaties, but I primarily use it as something to poke platforms with. Not sure if its better then a d-air or b-air though.
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Well it depends on their DI, so if they'd fly away if you hit with front side, they'd stay in place if you hit with the backside. It's not guaranteed at all.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
Any thoughts on weak reverse n-air as a combo tool? It looks pretty cool in addition to it tacking on some damage, but might not be as good as b-air or d-air depending on positioning or just overall consistency. As an example, you can see Santi use it in a ditto at 4:25 : https://youtu.be/HLlyHO28LPg
Seems like it could be a decent mixup every once in a while, but I'm not super experienced. I also don't know if it could work on floaties.
Seems like it could be a decent mixup every once in a while, but I'm not super experienced. I also don't know if it could work on floaties.
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Yeah it's not bad, especially if you encourage them to jump first like Santi did here. Otherwise it's a little easy to see coming and you can just not jump and take the hit/SDI away and get out since you have to hit with weak Nair to get any real punish. Okay sometimes though like you said.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
Also quick question, is shine grab easier to perform a certain way? I use Y to jump, but shine grabbing can feel kind of awkward to do like that. I used the analog stick to jc for a bit, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of consistency either way.
It's honestly just practice either way. I use X for everything and it works fine for me. The argument for Y is you can slide to B and keep it consistent with everything else, but if you use the control stick you can spread out inputs between your hands I guess. You'll sort it out though.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
Thanks for all the advice, I tend to use the analog for double lasers from ledge and ledgedashing and Y for everything else, similar to how I l-cancel and wave dash with L, and use R to shield, roll, and tech. Everybody has a method that works for them, so I guess it'll come with practice as most things do in this game.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
Has anyone seen KJH's lifesaver video as part of his fox privelege series? I want to hear your thoughts. It works with both spacies as the video mentions, pretty risky, but tricky mixup. I think it's probably more useful for fox as his up-b covers so much ground he can use his jump to retaliate and then recover. Falco probably couldn't risk it unless there was a stock advantage or it was a last stock situation, however, I haven't had time to try it out. Seems like it's a good idea to get a feel of how your opponent likes to edge guard, because if your opponent isn't aggressive it results in you burning your double jump, quite literally I might add, it also depends on your opponents character and the tools they have. It's good to see something new that adds some variety and artificial vitality to Falco's recovery.
Here's the link to the video: https://youtu.be/UARP2K-ufU8
Here's the link to the video: https://youtu.be/UARP2K-ufU8
Altodor
Smash Rookie
man playing foxes who just full jump constantly really sucks. all i do is laser laser laser and nothing happens. positioning for uptilts seems like a good option or run up shield. jumping into the foxes always leads to me trading with their bair. buh.
Well KJH shows a couple ways to use it to live like vs Puff weak Fair with Falco. I don't really have anything extra to add besides that since it's a weird option to me.
Utilt, FH Bair/Dair/Nair into them before their move comes out, laser slightly forward on their landing(this one is good it forces them to make a choice and they can't FH safely anymore from there), or backing up and running in on their landing are all pretty good options against FH Bair. If you're at low percent you can run under CC/ASDI down shine it too.
AGTallon
Smash Rookie
I come from a pretty small scene and often times only have a chance to play with people once a week. I read PP's guide to practicing on your own (super helpful btw), but I was wondering if watching top level Falco matches at low level would help my game. Since I'm not fully capable of understanding what's happening in every interaction, I don't want to get the wrong idea about a situation and form bad habits. Should I watch top players analyze matches themselves? I'm also curious about the frequency I should be doing this, should it go hand in hand with my regular routine?
AGTallon
Watching better players is super helpful if your actually taking the time to figure out how they got thier hits. I wouldnt get too hung up on it being "top" level though. You can learn from anyone better than you and even people at your own level. Something surprisingly helpful that ive found is watching good players beat lower level ones. Often when two good players play, they will play around the bad options, and because of this you dont get to see what the "bad" option was. Good players punish bad options so easily that you can see what they do vs the simple stuff. One thing thats always apparent is how well good players cc punish and punish oos. There may not be as much to learn from these sets, but it can be easier to digest.
The best thing to do when watching any player better than you is to guess why something is good. Don't assume anything. Then test out if it's actually good for why you think it is when you play. Then you'll know for sure. You don't need to watch top players for this, you can get the same types of ideas from players stronger than you at all.