Potential Roster/Stage Leak Thread

[BombKirby]

It's a rationale. There's reasons why Sakurai would change his mindset. Either the team felt like it would be a nice easter egg: Zero Suit Samus's costumes from past Metroid games or Little Mac's wire frame and pink training outfit, or they felt that an alt costume would waste a decent character like Lucina who in my opinion, deserved her own move set or at the very least, her own battle stance from Awakening. You can't just change and respond with a "I dunno". There's always a reason.

I already said a reason earlier: To not spoil ****. Simple as that. Game devs can't just be like "yes mewtwo is in the roster" or "yes x character has x costume" if they're asked that. They keep that stuff private even if its true because sometimes things don't work out and their promises never get into the game. He may have been avoiding the whole "yes there are alternate costumes". It's hard to tell because he answers many questions inaccurately due to the language barrier.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Either the 4chan leaker is lying about the additional characters, the MFin leaker is lying, or both are. The reason is that both claim different characters: the 4chan leak has chorus men, the MFin leaker one doesn't.

MFL was confirmed to be full of it. He's been banned from here and all that jazz.

Also, there's no evidence to confirm that there's anything beyond what's there except for a few people saying there might be more. Until we see more evidence that there's more to the roster than Doc, Pittoo, Doge, Junior and Shulk, we should assume that's all we've got.

I keep repeating this patiently to everyone who says 'THERE'S MORE!' because this is the Melee and Brawl leaks all over again. Everyone's assuming more for various reasons and getting their hopes up, only to have them dashed. I don't want to see you guys get disappointed when that's inevitably it.

"But Beef!" you cry. "Ninka/Vaanrose/etc. all said there's more!"

And until there's evidence for that, genuine photographic and/or video evidence, it's best to assume they're just trying to drag this thing out as long as possible. If there was more, we'd have inevitably heard about it by now.

Best of all, if I'm wrong and there IS more to come, well, great! That means you're going to enjoy it more because you weren't expecting it.

 

[staindgrey]

I thought the reason Sakurai included Ice Climbers in the first place was because they were a childhood favorite of his. I know that's a flawed logic to assume he'd keep them in just because of that, but it is might strange having them in the past 2 games and then suddenly taking them out.

It happens, though.

Mega Man was in Marvel vs. Capcom and MvC2, but then was dropped for MvC3. Just for one example.

 

[Reila]

I remember someone earlier saying that Sakurai shouldn't have married the concept of having the rosters be the same in both versions. It's rather silly to have both versions lack a character because one version wasn't working well. The Wii U version should have all the characters from the 3DS version plus more. I don't think it's much of a debate to say the Wii U version is the better of the two. It deserves the best and shouldn't be held back in any way.

I am however against the idea of having the 3DS version containing characters that the Wii U one doesn't have. I think Smash Bros will always be better suited for consoles anyway so the console version should be the supreme version in every way.

No, both versions should have the same amount of characters. End of story.

And if that does happen, Sakurai would have to give the 3DS version an exclusive character to make things fair.

And people would cry about that as well, because apparently the 3DS version having exclusive is a crime against humanity.

 

[Deleted member]

Here is wii's hardware specs:

• CPU speed: 729 MHz
• CPU cores: 1
• GPU speed: 243 MHz
• System RAM: 88 MB
• USB2.0: (2 ports)

3ds specs are hard to find,but I found the best I could:

• CPU speed: 268mhz
• Dual-Core ARM11
• GPU speed: 133MHz
• System RAM: 128

Compare that to gamecube specs:

• CPU speed485 MHz
• CPU cores1
• GPU speed162 MHz
• System RAM43 MB

It's probably a CPU problem with Ice Climbers, If only I could find more info on 3ds specs.

I was wondering if some of this info could be used to explain the possible issues.

 

[BombKirby]

Honestly, putting Ice Climbers on the WiiU version only probably won't happen. Sakurai has stated twice, and I think the Treehouse staff has, that Sakurai wants the roster to be the same on both versions. Yes, he can go back on his word, but this close to development? Plus, if the rosters are different, you might as well call smash WiiU smash 5.
And if that does happen, Sakurai would have to give the 3DS version an exclusive character to make things fair.

It's a slim chance but I can see them giving the wii u a bigger roster. Hype is going to die down after the 3ds one is out. We'll know every character in the game, and the Wii U version needs some exclusive stuff to make it worth a second purchase. To get the sales they need I can see them being forced to pull a stunt like that.

I can SEE it happening... not "I'm expecting it" though. Not at all am I expecting that.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

If Nana really was a problem for the 3DS, couldn't they just have Popo be solo and Nana would appear only for the special attacks and FS?

Or just have Ice Climbers be Wii U exclusive and have a 3DS exclusive character to compensate.

 

[Reila]

If Nana really was a problem for the 3DS, couldn't they just have Popo be solo and Nana would appear only for the special attacks and FS?

Or just have Ice Climbers be Wii U exclusive and have a 3DS exclusive character to compensate.

Except Ice Climbers are known for being a paired character, not a single character with other as their FS (like Robin). I wouldn't have minded Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U IF we 3DS players got an exclusive character as well. **** the idea of the Wii U version having more characters, though.

 

[Deleted member]

If Nana really was a problem for the 3DS, couldn't they just have Popo be solo and Nana would appear only for the special attacks and FS?

Because that would defeat the purpose of the character. The Ice Climbers are designed to be extremely generic characters on their own, with the gimmick being that you are controlling 2 characters at once.

 

[staindgrey]

Here is wii's hardware specs:

• CPU speed: 729 MHz
• CPU cores: 1
• GPU speed: 243 MHz
• System RAM: 88 MB
• USB2.0: (2 ports)

3ds specs are hard to find,but I found the best I could:

• CPU speed: 268mhz
• Dual-Core ARM11
• GPU speed: 133MHz
• System RAM: 128

Compare that to gamecube specs:

• CPU speed485 MHz
• CPU cores1
• GPU speed162 MHz
• System RAM43 MB

It's probably a CPU problem with Ice Climbers, If only I could find more info on 3ds specs.

I don't think so. A dual-core at a lower speed is pretty much always better than a single core at a higher speed. Granted, I'm not familiar with exactly which CPUs they have, so take that for what you will.

Besides, neither the GPU nor the CPU need to be as high as the home consoles' because of the smaller screen size and necessary output, so comparing these three really tells us nothing. The issue is more than likely due to screen size or more complicated stages/items than in past entries, and likely has something to do with the reason the Zelda/Sheik transformation was abandoned as well. They must need to restrict what's loaded to only four characters, and that's that. (Luma's presence is intriguing, though...)

 

[Tollhouse]

No, both versions should have the same amount of characters. End of story.

And people would cry about that as well, because apparently the 3DS version having exclusive is a crime against humanity.

You don't see a problem that the wii u version is being held back because of the 3ds?

And yes, it is a crime if the 3ds smash has a character that the wii U one doesn't. Why? Because the 3ds one's gonna suck compared to the Wii U version.

Ok lol jk. I can't make that argument.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Because that would defeat the purpose of the character. The Ice Climbers are designed to be extremely generic characters on their own, with the gimmick being that you are controlling 2 characters at once.

It worked for their Target Test in Melee.

 

[Ffamran]

I already said a reason earlier: To not spoil ****. Simple as that. Game devs can't just be like "yes mewtwo is in the roster" or "yes x character has x costume" if they're asked that. They keep that stuff private even if its true because sometimes things don't work out and their promises never get into the game. He may have been avoiding the whole "yes there are alternate costumes". It's hard to tell because he answers many questions inaccurately due to the language barrier.

I know that. It'd be stupid to tell everyone the roster. That's why we have slow trickles of info each day.

What I meant is that Sakurai doesn't want wacky costumes that detracts a character's image. Let's take Link for an example. Link's tunics come in different colors and Link has worn different variations of it like in Ocarina of Time, Hyrule Warriors, etc. along with a "starting" outfit like in Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and the upcoming Wii U Zelda game. Those costumes and palette swaps would be okay, but having Link dress up as Legolas, a Green Lantern, Luigi, or Gregor from Fire Emblem: Awakening would seem out of place. Hell, people might even choose to dress as the other characters instead and that would take away the charm that is Link.

Oh, people want Fierce Deity Link! A costume based on that would be okay, but there's also potential for FDL to be a wicked character or a Final Smash for Young Link.

Lucina and Marth. Lucina was planned as a costume for Marth, but doing so would cement the idea that Lucina is a nobody and just a female Marth. That takes away from who Lucina is despite it being something Lucina wanted in Awakening, so she could be a great leader like Marth and the whole disguise thing. Marth is his own person; Lucina is her own person.

Luigi's a clown, but does he need to wear a clown suit? Now, if said suit actually becomes a power-up in a future Mario game, then sure, but for now, maybe not.

 

[Deleted member]

It worked for their Target Test in Melee.

Because the target level was a reference to Ice Climber. In Ice Climber, you only control one of the climbers. The 2 in 1 thing comes from Ice Climber being one of if not the first Co-op game made by Nintendo.

 

[BombKirby]

I know that. It'd be stupid to tell everyone the roster. That's why we have slow trickles of info each day.

What I meant is that Sakurai doesn't want wacky costumes that detracts a character's image. Let's take Link for an example. Link's tunics come in different colors and Link has worn different variations of it like in Ocarina of Time, Hyrule Warriors, etc. along with a "starting" outfit like in Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and the upcoming Wii U Zelda game. Those costumes and palette swaps would be okay, but having Link dress up as Legolas, a Green Lantern, Luigi, or Gregor from Fire Emblem: Awakening would seem out of place. Hell, people might even choose to dress as the other characters instead and that would take away the charm that is Link.

Oh, people want Fierce Deity Link! A costume based on that would be okay, but there's also potential for FDL to be a wicked character or a Final Smash for Young Link.

Lucina and Marth. Lucina was planned as a costume for Marth, but doing so would cement the idea that Lucina is a nobody and just a female Marth. That takes away from who Lucina is despite it being something Lucina wanted in Awakening, so she could be a great leader like Marth and the whole disguise thing. Marth is his own person; Lucina is her own person.

Luigi's a clown, but does he need to wear a clown suit? Now, if said suit actually becomes a power-up in a future Mario game, then sure, but for now, maybe not.

I know I agreed with you. I said that I've used this exact article to explain to people that he doesn't want costumes that fundamentally change who you're playing as. Sakurai has answered several questions incorrectly though because of the language barrier (like during the Pac-man conference FAQ he answered a question asking if "Wifi would work better than in Brawl" with an answer dealing about matchmaking people with equal skill levels") Anyways I get it. If it said "Marth wins!" and it showed Lucina then...it'd be unprofessional. Best to give her a character slot.

But if that Ninka **** is 100% right and we get them koopalings? What then? They're completely different characters. We have no evidence yet so it could be BS, but that would ruin Sakurai's word.

 

[Reila]

I knew the Ice Climbers thing would bring hate towards the 3DS version and it is already happening. I hope the moderation prohibits trashing the 3DS version at least here on, you know, THE 3DS board. If they don't do that, well, it will be hard for the 3DS players to have any fun posting in this board. Blaming the game because Sakurai decided to cut a character (who could have been an Wii U exclusive) is not only pointless, but also quite stupid.

 

[Cherenando]

I'm really hoping for FREE DLC in this game (so they can keep the hype going for the Wii U version) ... just imagine all the posibilities ...
Also I expect constant balance changes ...

a man can dream

if none of this happens i'm going to have to find a huge rock to hide under

 

[cmbsfm]

I don't think so. A dual-core at a lower speed is pretty much always better than a single core at a higher speed. Granted, I'm not familiar with exactly which CPUs they have, so take that for what you will.

Besides, neither the GPU nor the CPU need to be as high as the home consoles' because of the smaller screen size and necessary output, so comparing these three really tells us nothing. The issue is more than likely due to screen size or more complicated stages/items than in past entries, and likely has something to do with the reason the Zelda/Sheik transformation was abandoned as well. They must need to restrict what's loaded to only four characters, and that's that. (Luma's presence is intriguing, though...)

Doesn't luma have a lower polygon count than nana though? Ice climbers is like 2 whole entities, I think there is some difference between rosalina & luma and Ice climbers. I was thinking the same thing about resolution, but then I remembered the 3d.
How CPU intensive is the 3d effect anyway? I'll have to look that up.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I hope so. Surely Sakurai sees that that the 3DS limitations are hurting the Wii U versions when he's trying to make these 2 games similar. I'll be pretty pleased if Ice Climbers turn out to be part of the Wii U's starting roster like they should be.

If the Wii could handle it, the 3DS should be able to. More importanly both games are already said to have the same roster so if Ice Climbers makes it to the Wii U it'll be in the 3ds.
Also considering this is generally a one per console release it likely won't be as bad next time.

 

[ElPanandero]

I knew the Ice Climbers thing would bring hate towards the 3DS version and it is already happening. I hope the moderation prohibits trashing the 3DS version at least here on, you know, THE 3DS board. If they don't do that, well, it will be hard for the 3DS players to have any fun posting in this board. Blaming the game because Sakurai decided to cut a character (who could have been an Wii U exclusive) is not only pointless, but also quite stupid.

Well it's a legitimate argument, though I agree they shouldn't trash the whole game, I agree you guys (assuming youre gonna be a 3DS smasher) should have as non-hostile an environment as the rest of the community. If anything we should be mad at Sakurai making an arbitrary equal roster rule, assuming that's still a think which we don't know for sure. A lot of unknowns to already be damning a whole half of the smash 4 community, I agree.

 

[BombKirby]

Doesn't luma have a lower polygon count than nana though? Ice climbers is like 2 whole entities, I think there is some difference between rosalina & luma and Ice climbers. I was thinking the same thing about resolution, but then I remembered the 3d.
How CPU intensive is the 3d effect anyway? I'll have to look that up.

Yeah Luma is lower Poly and is not a true character. It cannot be grabbed or hit by a Final Smash like C.Falcon's or Megaman's and get dragged into the cutscene and etc. It's a Pikmin. That's it. Totally different. I played the demo enough times to know it's not the same complexity as Nana in any degree.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I knew the Ice Climbers thing would bring hate towards the 3DS version and it is already happening. I hope the moderation prohibits trashing the 3DS version at least here on, you know, THE 3DS board. If they don't do that, well, it will be hard for the 3DS players to have any fun posting in this board. Blaming the game because Sakurai decided to cut a character (who could have been an Wii U exclusive) is not only pointless, but also quite stupid.

Believe me, it's only going to continue growing.

It already began with these leaks, and it's going to hit full force when people in denial learn the hard way.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Because the target level was a reference to Ice Climber. In Ice Climber, you only control one of the climbers. The 2 in 1 thing comes from Ice Climber being one of if not the first Co-op game made by Nintendo.

Ech I should've shown you this video first then, but I didn't think anyone cared about the Ice Climbers history.

It wouldn't be too different to have Nana appear just on the specials. It could be similar to how Naruto in the fighting games and Smash Flash would spawn clones for his attacks.

 

[Master of Bones]

Here's hoping they can eventually resolve the Ice Climbers issue and we can have them as DLC.

On a seperate note...Am I the only one who thinks Dark Pit has the possibility of not being a clone?

 

[SS-bros14]

I knew the Ice Climbers thing would bring hate towards the 3DS version and it is already happening. I hope the moderation prohibits trashing the 3DS version at least here on, you know, THE 3DS board. If they don't do that, well, it will be hard for the 3DS players to have any fun posting in this board. Blaming the game because Sakurai decided to cut a character (who could have been an Wii U exclusive) is not only pointless, but also quite stupid.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this.
Really, saying stuff like 'The Ice Climbers should a WiiU exclusive since it's gonna be better than the 3DS version.' just isn't needed.
What does it have to do with this leak anyway?

 

[staindgrey]

Doesn't luma have a lower polygon count than nana though? Ice climbers is like 2 whole entities, I think there is some difference between rosalina & luma and Ice climbers. I was thinking the same thing about resolution, but then I remembered the 3d.
How CPU intensive is the 3d effect anyway? I'll have to look that up.

It's not very intensive at all. All it's doing is inserting tiny arrangements of negative pixels to simulate a drop-in effect. There's a fascinating explanation of it somewhere on Kotaku, but that came out years ago. You'd have to dig for it.

Luma doesn't necessarily act on its (her? his?) own in the same way that Nana does, as you can direct it like a projectile that just doesn't go away. Since Luma can also disappear completely when you want it to, I assume it's less taxing than having a permanent AI controlled character model loaded throughout a match.

Again, I think that whatever reason keeping ICs out is the exact same reson they made Zelda and Sheik separate characters. There's no reason for it besides "we can't load in Sheik every time you pick Zelda".

 

[Tollhouse]

I knew the Ice Climbers thing would bring hate towards the 3DS version and it is already happening. I hope the moderation prohibits trashing the 3DS version at least here on, you know, THE 3DS board. If they don't do that, well, it will be hard for the 3DS players to have any fun posting in this board. Blaming the game because Sakurai decided to cut a character (who could have been an Wii U exclusive) is not only pointless, but also quite stupid.

Well you're absolutely right about it being stupid. I think it's pretty understandable for Ice Climber players to be frustrated after learning that their character was cut out for this very reason. (assuming it's in fact true) But yeah it would be immature for others to bash the 3DS topics and make others miserable. (Just like it would if someone's most wanted character didn't make it in and they lost their temper.)

 

[SS-bros14]

On a seperate note...Am I the only one who thinks Dark Pit has the possibility of not being a clone?

Yeah, I'm surprised that he's being considered a clone on this roster. At first I though he would be a clone because of his similar name, but then heard of his differences and saw he probably wouldn't be a clone. Kinda like Paper Mario and Mario. Some people think that if Paper Mario comes he'll be a clone, but he probably won't.

 

[Deleted member]

Ech I should've shown you this video first then, but I didn't think anyone cared about the Ice Climbers history.

It wouldn't be too different to have Nana appear just on the specials. It could be similar to how Naruto in the fighting games and Smash Flash would spawn clones for his attacks.

It would be completely different. For one, the Ice Climbers are known in Smash for being a 2 in 1 character. Splitting them up makes them lose the only thing that made them unique. Second, Naruto spawning clones is CANON to the Naruto manga and anime. The Shadow Clone Jutsu is basically Naruto's signature move. Popo cannot spawn Nanas. Even in Smash he isn't able to do that unless he kills himself and they both respawn. It would just be ridiculous to have Nana magically appear just to make Squall Hammer use both climbers.

 

[Bowserlick]

Tie the Ice Climbers together with a short bungee cord. Two separate weights linked together. They would be able to do crazy things with momentum and directional influence.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

It would be completely different. For one, the Ice Climbers are known in Smash for being a 2 in 1 character. Splitting them up makes them lose the only thing that made them unique. Second, Naruto spawning clones is CANON to the Naruto manga and anime. The Shadow Clone Jutsu is basically Naruto's signature move. Popo cannot spawn Nanas. Even in Smash he isn't able to do that unless he kills himself and they both respawn. It would just be ridiculous.

Ridiculous like Mario pulling a FLUDD from out of his ass? OR going by the leaked video, how Bowser Jr. can spawn Clown Cars out of nowhere. Lets try using a little bit of imagination here. And Hammerspace.

 

[BombKirby]

I think we maaaay be getting ahead of ourselves with any insults and anger towards the devs. There's still the possibility that we don't know the whoooole roster and... all the dixie stuff and garbage was fake since we have no image evidence of those extra characters. It's a slim flipping chance but the ICs could still be there and everyone who whined about them being removed will look pretty silly. I'm more than ready to accept the fact my pals are out of the game, but I won't complain until I know for absolutely sure. I mean, I probably will just sigh and get over it instead of complaining but you get my point.

Also I was thinking they were not only a technical hurdle but their playstyle isn't exactly the most fun thing to fight against. I could see them delaying/dropping them for that reason as well. I would be overjoyed if we simply havent seen them yet simply because they're the final characters they're finishing up due to a big rework were chain grabs and etc were replaced with an official tag-team system or some crap. I would also be incredibly sad if they literally just dropped the idea of 2 characters together due to being unable to take care of CGs/Wobbling/etc which would soooo simple to fix. >_< Doubt thats the case.

BUT they're probably gone so... boop!

Tie the Ice Climbers together with a short bungee cord. Two separate weights linked together. They would be able to do crazy things with momentum and directional influence.

So Knuckles Chaotix?

 

[cmbsfm]

It's not very intensive at all. All it's doing is inserting tiny arrangements of negative pixels to simulate a drop-in effect. There's a fascinating explanation of it somewhere on Kotaku, but that came out years ago. You'd have to dig for it.

Luma doesn't necessarily act on its (her? his?) own in the same way that Nana does, as you can direct it like a projectile that just doesn't go away. Since Luma can also disappear completely when you want it to, I assume it's less taxing than having a permanent AI controlled character model loaded throughout a match.

Again, I think that whatever reason keeping ICs out is the exact same reson they made Zelda and Sheik separate characters. There's no reason for it besides "we can't load in Sheik every time you pick Zelda".

Ah.. so the 3d probably is not the problem, but it's still hard to determine what is the problem. What corners would they have to cut rather than cutting them all together? Maybe make Nana work less as a secondary player and more like luma? The 60 fps popo and 30 fps Nana suggestion? I'm guessing they probably won't be in the full game, but I wonder if they could still be able to come back as downloadable. Maybe an Ice climber amiibo with an expanision pack like the n64

 

[Tollhouse]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this.
Really, saying stuff like 'The Ice Climbers should a WiiU exclusive since it's gonna be better than the 3DS version.' just isn't needed.
What does it have to do with this leak anyway?

No the thing was to include the Ice Climbers in the Wii U one regardless of whether the 3DS version could handle it or not. If a character was planned to be in the roster but didn't work in one version, couldn't they just make on small exception and keep them in the Wii U one? That was the point.

 

[Ffamran]

Tie the Ice Climbers together with a short bungee cord. Two separate weights linked together. They would be able to do crazy things with momentum and directional influence.

It'd be a great way for them to sleep with the fishes. Oh, look! An orange. How'd that get here?

For funsies: This is probably why Sakurai booted them off. Don't mess with his beloved Kirby.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Has anyone considered ICs were cut for being severely mechanically flawed on top of being from a kinda obscure and very bad NES game and not for technical limitations? The character just kinda did infinites out of grabs in Melee and Brawl, and fixing those problems has been a clear focus in smash 4 (it's clear from playing the demo). The core design of Ice Climbers makes preventing infinites out of grabs extremely hard to the point that Sakurai may have deemed the best solution to the problem was just cutting the character.

Of course, in reality, character cuts probably happen for a lot of reasons. Let me list a ton of hypothetical issues I can see. Ice Climbers are technically challenging on 3DS. Ice Climbers are from a really bad and obscure NES game. Ice Climbers are not a very popular character in Melee and Brawl. Ice Climbers are a balance nightmare. Ice Climbers add substantially to the amount of bugtesting the game requires. Ice Climbers require hardcoded exceptions to basic mechanical rules. Ice Climbers' core design is extremely beginner unfriendly and thus they can only ever appeal to a very small subset of players. Ice Climbers are traditionally extremely unpleasant to play against for other players. Visually distinct actions are a focus of the new design, and Ice Climbers are often visually confusing (especially when using non-default colors). You can't just take one reason and say "this is the reason something happened". You have to look at the greater context and judge everything together. There were a ton of reasons to cut Ice Climbers, and odds are, they all worked together in a complex way in which no single thing could be called "the reason" to make it happen. Of course, this also makes blaming things like the 3DS version for a character cut not really reasonable...

 

[BombKirby]

My fix to the "Nana issue" would to be what they did with ATs and just make her lower framerate or some garbage. ATs were shown to run at like half the FPS and half the polycount of a normal character to reduce slowdown/lag. Not sure if that would help... but I'm just spittballing ideas about tech I hardly understand.

Has anyone considered ICs were cut for being severely mechanically flawed on top of being from a kinda obscure and very bad NES game and not for technical limitations? The character just kinda did infinites out of grabs in Melee and Brawl, and fixing those problems has been a clear focus in smash 4 (it's clear from playing the demo). The core design of Ice Climbers makes preventing infinites out of grabs extremely hard to the point that Sakurai may have deemed the best solution to the problem was just cutting the character.

Of course, in reality, character cuts probably happen for a lot of reasons. Let me list a ton of hypothetical issues I can see. Ice Climbers are technically challenging on 3DS. Ice Climbers are from a really bad and obscure NES game. Ice Climbers are not a very popular character in Melee and Brawl. Ice Climbers are a balance nightmare. Ice Climbers add substantially to the amount of bugtesting the game requires. Ice Climbers require hardcoded exceptions to basic mechanical rules. Ice Climbers' core design is extremely beginner unfriendly and thus they can only ever appeal to a very small subset of players. Ice Climbers are traditionally extremely unpleasant to play against for other players. Visually distinct actions are a focus of the new design, and Ice Climbers are often visually confusing (especially when using non-default colors). You can't just take one reason and say "this is the reason something happened". You have to look at the greater context and judge everything together. There were a ton of reasons to cut Ice Climbers, and odds are, they all worked together in a complex way in which no single thing could be called "the reason" to make it happen. Of course, this also makes blaming things like the 3DS version for a character cut not really reasonable...

Yup. It had to be said. A few posts ago I said it may be related to their flawed/frustrating fighting style. Plus as hard as it is to admit, they're not very popular in SSB among normal/casual players.

Old, obscure, bad game doesn't really mean much though. See ROB. And yes ROB helped save the industry and all, but ICs were one of the Co-op pioneers. So they both had some sort of purpose in history.

Probably all of the reasons you listed about the popularity vs the difficulty of creating them and balancing them and giving them a good fighting style that isn't annoying to play against and overly complicated for beginners.

 

[Raijinken]

Except Ice Climbers are known for being a paired character, not a single character with other as their FS (like Robin). I wouldn't have minded Ice Climbers exclusive to the Wii U IF we 3DS players got an exclusive character as well. **** the idea of the Wii U version having more characters, though.

Characters have been known to be reworked (just look at Bowser). I'd rather just have Sopo or Popo and Nana as separate characters than them be cut, but then again, I'm only against them being cut because I'm against cuts in general.

Has anyone considered ICs were cut for being severely mechanically flawed on top of being from a kinda obscure and very bad NES game and not for technical limitations? The character just kinda did infinites out of grabs in Melee and Brawl, and fixing those problems has been a clear focus in smash 4 (it's clear from playing the demo). The core design of Ice Climbers makes preventing infinites out of grabs extremely hard to the point that Sakurai may have deemed the best solution to the problem was just cutting the character.

Of course, in reality, character cuts probably happen for a lot of reasons. Let me list a ton of hypothetical issues I can see. Ice Climbers are technically challenging on 3DS. Ice Climbers are from a really bad and obscure NES game. Ice Climbers are not a very popular character in Melee and Brawl. Ice Climbers are a balance nightmare. Ice Climbers add substantially to the amount of bugtesting the game requires. Ice Climbers require hardcoded exceptions to basic mechanical rules. Ice Climbers' core design is extremely beginner unfriendly and thus they can only ever appeal to a very small subset of players. Ice Climbers are traditionally extremely unpleasant to play against for other players. Visually distinct actions are a focus of the new design, and Ice Climbers are often visually confusing (especially when using non-default colors). You can't just take one reason and say "this is the reason something happened". You have to look at the greater context and judge everything together. There were a ton of reasons to cut Ice Climbers, and odds are, they all worked together in a complex way in which no single thing could be called "the reason" to make it happen. Of course, this also makes blaming things like the 3DS version for a character cut not really reasonable...

I agree with all of this except "really bad and obscure NES game". Ice Climber was pretty enjoyable, and no worse than the vast majority of the system's games. Then again, I was raised on the NES, so my standards are likely different from most people's.

 

[Deleted member]

Ridiculous like Mario pulling a FLUDD from out of his ***? OR going by the leaked video, how Bowser Jr. can spawn Clown Cars out of nowhere. Lets try using a little bit of imagination here. And Hammerspace.

Except this is a human being and makes no sense. Junior is a ridiculous character already, him spawning Clown Cars fits his moveset. Mario pulls plenty of crap from hammerspace in his home series too, such as hammers and the like. Splitting up the Ice Climbers not only turns them into a generic character that offers nothing (they had to be simple so the 2 in 1 thing wasn't over complicated) but if you were to have Popo spawn Nana for specials only to say, shoot a second ice block, it would just spit in the face of people who used them to begin with. This isn't just changing up a character's special, or modifying the physics of one of their attacks, this would outright DESTROY how the character was intended to function in the first place. And what would this mean for future installments of Smash? Would the team revert the Ice Climbers back to their Melee/Brawl style if the hardware was able to handle it? Or would you keep the bizarre looking "but hey they're at least still in the game" mentality Smash 4 version.

I may not like cuts, but cutting the Ice Climbers is a far better move than simplifying them or cutting it down to one climber just so that there is still an Ice Climber in the 3DS version.

 

[「 Derk 」]

It would be completely different. For one, the Ice Climbers are known in Smash for being a 2 in 1 character. Splitting them up makes them lose the only thing that made them unique. Second, Naruto spawning clones is CANON to the Naruto manga and anime. The Shadow Clone Jutsu is basically Naruto's signature move. Popo cannot spawn Nanas. Even in Smash he isn't able to do that unless he kills himself and they both respawn. It would just be ridiculous to have Nana magically appear just to make Squall Hammer use both climbers.

Like how they removed the main thing that made Sheik and Zelda unique? I must be the only one looking forward to not having to play keep away from 2 grab happy kids in Smash 4.