choknater
Smash Obsessed
damn, the cats team looks way superior actually
-
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Pokemon X and Y: Competitive Gen VI Discussion
- Thread starter Wave⁂
- Start date
ss118
Smash Master
I find it interesting that the 130 speed area is very relevant in the current metagame just to beat neutral nature base 150's(salt from Ultimario induced here btw >_>) and... well... other base 130's.
So basically anything with the ability to increase its speed one stage(choice scarf) and 264+speed has some utility. If we have that as the minimum, then:
264/1.1 = 240 - 99 = 141/2 = 71 base speed required to beat 130's.
MegaDDTar and the Rock/Dragon thing with either DD or choice scarf reach both of those threshholds. If we want to beat neutral 150s, we need:
150*2 = 300 + 99 = 399, so 400/1.5 = 267/1.1 = 243 - 99 = 144 = 72 base speed to beat neutral 150's. Not sure if there is anything this applies to, but the numbers are there.
With this in mind we should take into consideration that we might want neutral natures to be taken into account, which will overall give us more of a range of pokemon with different speeds we want to use for these instances(without having to sacrifice too much power).
264 - 99 = 165 / 2 = 83 base speed for beating 130's.
267 - 99 = 168 / 2 = 84 base speed to beat neutral 150's.
Ultimately this doesn't mean much without having an example case to use in this spot. I really want to try using Mega-DDDos(haven't used it yet, I think it has potential), so I wanted to list that by running a Jolly nature Gyarados can beat these speed tiers after a DD boost.
267 - [(81*2 + 36 + [EVs/4])*1.1] = 0
267 = (162 + 36 + [EVs/4])*1.1
243 = 198+[EVs/4]
45 = EVs/4
180 = EVs
So basically Gyarados needs a Jolly[/Naive/Hasty/Timid >_>] nature with 180 Speed EVs to be able to beat out that speed tier. That frees up the 72 EVs for some stat, which doesn't mean that much to me unless I can make it mean something more in another stat(at least in speed the 18 points go into the 1.5 and 1.1 multipliers). Thankfully, I just found a calculation where I would really like the extra EVs:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 184 Def Gyarados: 211-248 (63.74 - 74.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So I found the minimum amount of EVs required to survive an adamant LOed SDed High Jump Kick after SR from Blaziken. 184 isn't the biggest investment, but from the 256 EVs we get, freeing up this 72 with the already freed 72 gives us a respectable 144 to work with in the attack. When you mega evolve, you get an attack stat of 382 which is literally one short of regular gyarados attack with adamant and 252 EVs(383). Jolly Gyarados just ends at 349, so m-dos can basically match adamants damage output while retaining tanky aspects of bulky dos and reaching speeds to that of neutral 150s.
This is impressive, but honestly it's not worth the slot anyway LOL.
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 144 Atk / 180 Spd / 184 Def
Jolly Nature
for the first set. If we want to we can just match the damage output of normal jolly gyarados and use this new extra bulk to tank much more than just that specific calculation, so if we just try to get 349 attack on M-Gyarados we need 12 EVs, so with that little investment we can go back and put more in a tiny bit. Max HP gives us a nice balance of both defenses, but we can still get KOed by the previous Blaziken. Give the defense stat just 32 EVs and that's done with, so now we have a MUCH bulkier gyarados than regular bulkyDos, which when it mega evolves reaches much more damage. Then there's more speed too, but lack of leftovers counts but since the idea is to use the Gyaradosite as the extra damage while using natural bulk to get set ups there shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Gyarados
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 48 Atk / 180 Spd / 252 HP / 32 Def
Jolly Nature
Much more tanky, but obviously damage output isn't amazing so don't expect it to be. This set trades damage for more potential to set up one-two dragon dances and get away with dealing damage afterwards. Waterfall is guaranteed for STAB and EQ hits rotom-W thanks to mega evolving with mold breaker, but after that point is your decision. I use Ice Fang because it hits the majority of fliers hard enough anyway and with SR and mega evolving(removing your SE weakness) you can hit other gyarados to beat them, but SE itself hits harder neutrally and destroys those gyarados regardless of SR. Ice Fang technically has more chances to hax between Freeze, Crit, Flinch, and higher accuracy, so have fun with that. Finally on top of all this, Talonflame revenges this not as easily as regular gyarados.
So basically anything with the ability to increase its speed one stage(choice scarf) and 264+speed has some utility. If we have that as the minimum, then:
264/1.1 = 240 - 99 = 141/2 = 71 base speed required to beat 130's.
MegaDDTar and the Rock/Dragon thing with either DD or choice scarf reach both of those threshholds. If we want to beat neutral 150s, we need:
150*2 = 300 + 99 = 399, so 400/1.5 = 267/1.1 = 243 - 99 = 144 = 72 base speed to beat neutral 150's. Not sure if there is anything this applies to, but the numbers are there.
With this in mind we should take into consideration that we might want neutral natures to be taken into account, which will overall give us more of a range of pokemon with different speeds we want to use for these instances(without having to sacrifice too much power).
264 - 99 = 165 / 2 = 83 base speed for beating 130's.
267 - 99 = 168 / 2 = 84 base speed to beat neutral 150's.
Ultimately this doesn't mean much without having an example case to use in this spot. I really want to try using Mega-DDDos(haven't used it yet, I think it has potential), so I wanted to list that by running a Jolly nature Gyarados can beat these speed tiers after a DD boost.
267 - [(81*2 + 36 + [EVs/4])*1.1] = 0
267 = (162 + 36 + [EVs/4])*1.1
243 = 198+[EVs/4]
45 = EVs/4
180 = EVs
So basically Gyarados needs a Jolly[/Naive/Hasty/Timid >_>] nature with 180 Speed EVs to be able to beat out that speed tier. That frees up the 72 EVs for some stat, which doesn't mean that much to me unless I can make it mean something more in another stat(at least in speed the 18 points go into the 1.5 and 1.1 multipliers). Thankfully, I just found a calculation where I would really like the extra EVs:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 184 Def Gyarados: 211-248 (63.74 - 74.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So I found the minimum amount of EVs required to survive an adamant LOed SDed High Jump Kick after SR from Blaziken. 184 isn't the biggest investment, but from the 256 EVs we get, freeing up this 72 with the already freed 72 gives us a respectable 144 to work with in the attack. When you mega evolve, you get an attack stat of 382 which is literally one short of regular gyarados attack with adamant and 252 EVs(383). Jolly Gyarados just ends at 349, so m-dos can basically match adamants damage output while retaining tanky aspects of bulky dos and reaching speeds to that of neutral 150s.
This is impressive, but honestly it's not worth the slot anyway LOL.
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 144 Atk / 180 Spd / 184 Def
Jolly Nature
for the first set. If we want to we can just match the damage output of normal jolly gyarados and use this new extra bulk to tank much more than just that specific calculation, so if we just try to get 349 attack on M-Gyarados we need 12 EVs, so with that little investment we can go back and put more in a tiny bit. Max HP gives us a nice balance of both defenses, but we can still get KOed by the previous Blaziken. Give the defense stat just 32 EVs and that's done with, so now we have a MUCH bulkier gyarados than regular bulkyDos, which when it mega evolves reaches much more damage. Then there's more speed too, but lack of leftovers counts but since the idea is to use the Gyaradosite as the extra damage while using natural bulk to get set ups there shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Gyarados
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 48 Atk / 180 Spd / 252 HP / 32 Def
Jolly Nature
Much more tanky, but obviously damage output isn't amazing so don't expect it to be. This set trades damage for more potential to set up one-two dragon dances and get away with dealing damage afterwards. Waterfall is guaranteed for STAB and EQ hits rotom-W thanks to mega evolving with mold breaker, but after that point is your decision. I use Ice Fang because it hits the majority of fliers hard enough anyway and with SR and mega evolving(removing your SE weakness) you can hit other gyarados to beat them, but SE itself hits harder neutrally and destroys those gyarados regardless of SR. Ice Fang technically has more chances to hax between Freeze, Crit, Flinch, and higher accuracy, so have fun with that. Finally on top of all this, Talonflame revenges this not as easily as regular gyarados.
Anyone wanna trade?
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Please don't post in the thread if you don't have something to contribute to the discussion.
I'm sorry, it was meant to be a joke. I watched the video post-post. I wasn't paying attention.
ss118
Smash Master
Wait... what?
Also just played with my gyarados set, it has been destroying teams surprisingly cleanly. I think most people sit on rotom-w to be their gyarados counter, but from my experience a +1 EQ one shots it.
Also just played with my gyarados set, it has been destroying teams surprisingly cleanly. I think most people sit on rotom-w to be their gyarados counter, but from my experience a +1 EQ one shots it.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
Jolly Gyarados is so good
(no it isn't)
Neutral spe deo is still the best cuz you outspeed like nothing significant with timid, not even in the +1/+2 and scarf territory.
Rash just destroys everything with Psycho Boost and OHKOs DNite though Multiscale w/ Ice Beam (it does like 70% max with epseed) so its pretty much better except for Deo vs Deo
(no it isn't)
Neutral spe deo is still the best cuz you outspeed like nothing significant with timid, not even in the +1/+2 and scarf territory.
Rash just destroys everything with Psycho Boost and OHKOs DNite though Multiscale w/ Ice Beam (it does like 70% max with epseed) so its pretty much better except for Deo vs Deo
ss118
Smash Master
I can do math therefore I'm right hue hue hue
I'm pretty sure people have been playing mega-ddtar the wrong way. I think it has quite a niche to set up on x2 weaknesses and can take advantage of a lot of things that you would not expect as long as it isn't getting hit by an earthquake or a x4 weakness. Even STAB moves can get eaten up from defensive walls and such.
The foe's Genesect (+0) used Iron Head!
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 49.0% of its health!
The foe's Azumarill (+1) used Aqua Jet!
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 43.1% of its health!
These are the EVs i'm experimenting with, though I think that it could be improved or tested for different things.
Tyranitar (F) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
EVs let it outspeed scarfchomp at +2, but a case could be made for just max speed to outpace things like keldeo, infernape, and latios too. it is essentially unrevengeable by priority with all of the raw bulk that it has, meaning outpacing scarfers and giving it a tiny bit of extra power is good enough.
The foe's Genesect (+0) used Iron Head!
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 49.0% of its health!
The foe's Azumarill (+1) used Aqua Jet!
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 43.1% of its health!
These are the EVs i'm experimenting with, though I think that it could be improved or tested for different things.
Tyranitar (F) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
EVs let it outspeed scarfchomp at +2, but a case could be made for just max speed to outpace things like keldeo, infernape, and latios too. it is essentially unrevengeable by priority with all of the raw bulk that it has, meaning outpacing scarfers and giving it a tiny bit of extra power is good enough.
I actually welcome this change. It actually gives people a reason to use Damp Rock, or Heat Rock. This change was obviously aimed at those who abused the power of the weather specific teams. The bonus power of water moves and 100% hit rate of Thunder was a little bit over the top while it was raining. Sunny day made it to where Chlorophyll Pokemon can sweep with Solar Beam, and fire types gained immense damage. Sandstorm was really annoying due to the evasion Garchomp and others could obtain from Sand Veil.
ss118
Smash Master
Here is proof that m-Gyarados is the best, with proper mention to Ultimario concerning the topic(note: M18+, don't watch otherwise[just cursing]).
Edit: how do I spoiler things now >_>
Edit: how do I spoiler things now >_>
Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn laughs in this thing's face. Tried and tested. However, if it knows Power-Up Punch, you may want to go with a bulky Unaware Quagsire. Khangaskhan is truly a monster in it's mega evolution. I've had good luck with my Prankster Sableye earlier against one. Burn him on the first turn so his attack is halved with Will-O-Wisp, then hit him with his own juice with Foul Play. Just use Recover when you need to. He can't hit Sableye with Power-Up Punch so he will have a hard time getting his power back.
Having a ghost-type on your team makes kangaskhan not at all threatening because he can't boost with power-up punch very well and it can usually only hit ghosts with sucker punch post-mega. Without the +2 attack boost, it won't do much damage and its bulk isn't so outstanding that it can take repeated punishment.
If you don't have a ghost though, rocky helmet on anything punishes kanga super hard. Will-o-wisp will stop it in its tracks, and any fighting-type scarfer will be able to beat it. Aegislash can probably beat it 1v1 unless it predicts the switch and grabs a power-up punch by not mega-ing and hitting the ghost switch-in with Scrappy. Skarmory is also an almost-perfect counter.
If you don't have a ghost though, rocky helmet on anything punishes kanga super hard. Will-o-wisp will stop it in its tracks, and any fighting-type scarfer will be able to beat it. Aegislash can probably beat it 1v1 unless it predicts the switch and grabs a power-up punch by not mega-ing and hitting the ghost switch-in with Scrappy. Skarmory is also an almost-perfect counter.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
trevenant and gourgeist are great against him
All the non-bulky ghosts (Gengar, Gourgeist-small, even things like Drifblim) run Substitute. Kanga can't mega against them, and if he megas and goes for the boost as you bring the ghost in, it's utterly blocked by the sub. People would take advantage of that if they were smart teambuilders, but hey...they aren't doing that yet
This times 1000000000
Standard Khan literally cannot damage these two pokes and if you run them with WoW you basically negate the threat of Mega Khan.
Im still all about M!Scizor. That pokemon is a bag of ***** lol.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i use rock tomb kanga lol
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Thanks for the advice! I got hit by an Earthquake after switching in Aegislash...that hit hard. I was even more annoyed when I was hit with Earthquake again as Wobbuffet, left to a sliver of health, used Wobbuffet...and the Kangaskhan wasn't even killed in one hit. Wtf? I thought if you took off more than half of Wobbuffet's health with an attack, it could mirror coat/counter it back for a guaranteed kill. Sorry, I'm pretty new to this stuff.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Well, Mega Scizor is probably the best False Swiper in the game...So, he's got that
choknater
Smash Obsessed
it could be that Wobbuffet only countered kangaskhan's second hit, which is weaker
I'm pretty sure this is what happened, since multi-hit moves that get countered will only reflect the damage of the last hit back.
I'm noticing on ladder that the metagame's defensive pokemon have been more standardized but that offensive threats are still varied enough. That kinda makes it feel like the "next big sweeper" is right around the corner that can defeat the common core of walls pokemon (rotom-w, lando-t/gliscor, ferrothorn, vaporeon).
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
the next big sweeper would be megakanga probably, it deals with everything except ghosts with will-o-wisp or toxic, (or if gengar can disable sucker punch, can't do **** if he can't hurt you)
but the other problem is, without weather, all the sweepers that can get through any wall core are usually ridiculous, over the top (blaziken, genesect, etc)
bulky offense is on it's way back
but the other problem is, without weather, all the sweepers that can get through any wall core are usually ridiculous, over the top (blaziken, genesect, etc)
bulky offense is on it's way back
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
That would make sense. Darn, even one of my favorite pokemon to use isn't too effective against Mega Kangaskhan then haha.
Also, I don't hear a lot about Mega Medicham. I always hear about Mega Mawile. Mega Medicham also has a humongous attack thanks to it's ability, and speed to actually utilize. Although I'm guessing it's due to Mega Mawile's typing that makes it have a lot of resistances.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
medicham can plow through a team more effectively, but mawile gets way more opportunities, ESPECIALLY to set up sd. medicham has to rely on quick OHKO's, or it will get hurt badly
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
I used a mega Mawhile in game, but I haven't used one against anyone yet. I may try it.
I've been using Mega Ampharos. Haven't heard much talk of it
Edit: 20 of the points Mega Ampharos got from the 100 that megas gain went into attack...
WTH use is that?
Did Gamefreak think Mega Ampharos would be too powerful if the 20 went into something Ampharos would use?
Is anyone going to use base 95 attack when it's special attack is 165?
I've been using Mega Ampharos. Haven't heard much talk of it
Edit: 20 of the points Mega Ampharos got from the 100 that megas gain went into attack...
WTH use is that?
Did Gamefreak think Mega Ampharos would be too powerful if the 20 went into something Ampharos would use?
Is anyone going to use base 95 attack when it's special attack is 165?
ss118
Smash Master
same thing with mega gardevoir... if it had 85 defense it would be workable, but instead those twenty went into attack... >_>
choknater
Smash Obsessed
mixed ampharos all day
mantine can't handle that STAB wild charge
mantine can't handle that STAB wild charge
Ussi
Smash Legend
Mega Gardevoir probably got 20 into attack to use physical normal moves
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
It MAY be they put those points in attack JUST so the pokemon deals more to itself when confused
So Trevenant is a godly pokemon. I've been running a Special defensive set with Horn Leech/Shadow Claw/WoW/Rest. Tanks hits like a boss. Bulky Waters cant even get past it with Ice Beam. Love it. Now if only i wasnt the worst player in the world maybe my WoWs would hit. Im currently 9/33. Didnt they buff the accuracy?