Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Sirgabite]

Air Fighters here. In my last few days of countless labbing of this legendary monster, I managed to get some rather interesting data on my main boxer from the bronx and this psychic behemoth.

Mewtwo gets anally annihilated

Seriously, Mac absolutely destroys Mewtwo to the point where I can't honestly say that anyone should be using Mewtwo against Mac no matter how good they are. Little Mac defensive playstyle and absolutely wondrous up-special can easily intercept him in the air for a kill or to stop him from dragging him down to the blastzone with his nair, Mewtwo can't do a damn thing about Mac's speed and stage control, his weight makes him unable to punish Mac on block like the rest of the cast if it's not a perfect shield, Mewtwo's grab range in general just makes it hard to get him off stage- Like really, you get the point. Mewtwo's only saving grace is his limited up-special, and only if you ledge cancel it really, and his side-special. Otherwise, just...don't play Mewtwo against a good Little Mac (which there aren't that many of anymore but hey, just the Mac's two cents on the matter.)

just let mac do the approaching and then he dies in 3 attacks, because all mewtwo needs to do is hit 1 or 2 bairs offstage, but against a really offensive mewtwo, yes, mac kills mewtwo

 

[ミスティック Speed]

The key to playing Mewtwo is being defensive and evasive.
Being too offensive is just another way to die.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The key to playing Mewtwo is being defensive and evasive.
Being too offensive is just another way to die.

I'd say it's a mixed bag depending on the matchup and skill of the player you fight. I do think a lot of the matchups will be more defensive though. Mewtwo doesn't like taking a hit.

 

[Sonsa]

I really don't understand why everyone is deciding Mewtwo completely loses to characters like Falcon and Mac... Are you trying to be offensive? In those MUs? Mewtwo doesn't have to go in. Take advantage of that. Mewtwo can calmly wait charging his shadow ball or prepare a confusion or disable response. Or just shield grab.
After all, for example, what are Falcon's approach options? Maybe a short hop nair, bair, but usually just dash attack or dash grab. Falcon's a rushdown kinda character, whereas Mac should be more defensive, so be patient and charge your shadow ball. Once you get them off stage...it's pretty easy to kill em. Just look at Zero's Mewtwo videos - he bairs Falcon's to the blast zone again and again. Falcon has a pretty predictable and limited recovery.
If your opponent gets desperate and tries the Falcon Kick or Raptor Boost, disable em. Or Confusion will outprioritize it too.
Shadow Ball is always great, not like Falcon's ever ganna reflect that.

I dunno, I just don't see the problem. Mewtwo can handle rushdown. Decent speed, nice range, nice priority, even a 'get off me' option in his nair. In my experience, fighting Falcon's has been a treat and fighting Mac's has been funny as always.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

So, I've noticed something odd about Mewtwos up tilt: It can combo up to 8 times at 0% on Metaknight. I've tried this with different characters of different sizes, weight classes, and heights, but almost everyone else is knocked out of it after 2 up tilts. It kind of works on Villager, but while he'll be stuck for 3 utilts, his hitbox evades the other two, until he's knocked out again. Has anybody been able to combo utilt > utilt > utilt > utilt.... with any other character with Mewtwo?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

So, I've noticed something odd about Mewtwos up tilt: It can combo up to 8 times at 0% on Metaknight. I've tried this with different characters of different sizes and heights, but almost everyone else is knocked out of it after 2 up tilts. It kind of works on Villager, but while he'll be stuck for 3 utilts, his hitbox evades the other two, until he's knocked out again. Has anybody been able to combo utilt > utilt > utilt > utilt.... with any other character with Mewtwo?

Try it out on Ness and Little Mac.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So, I've noticed something odd about Mewtwos up tilt: It can combo up to 8 times at 0% on Metaknight. I've tried this with different characters of different sizes and heights, but almost everyone else is knocked out of it after 2 up tilts. It kind of works on Villager, but while he'll be stuck for 3 utilts, his hitbox evades the other two, until he's knocked out again. Has anybody been able to combo utilt > utilt > utilt > utilt.... with any other character with Mewtwo?

Megaman. 6 times. He could easily shield after the first one though. Most others get hit out of it after 2. Even Bowser.

 

[Enoki]

On the subject of utilt juggling:
When mario catches you in one, be patient. Our jump won't let us get out of it early, and if he catches your jump, expect to eat utilts until 50% or more.

 

[Sparky15]

Tried out my Mewtwo against a Fox today at a tournament, one of the best in Michigan. And I got bodied and switched. There has to be something I'm missing here, because I tried to land moves, but Fox was just too fast and strong. The landed d-air to up-smash combo is almost impossible to avoid because of Mewtwo's size and stupid weight. And when trying to camp with Shadow Balls, they weren't that effective... If there is any info you'd like to spare me, I'd love to hear it!

On the subject of utilt juggling:
When mario catches you in one, be patient. Our jump won't let us get out of it early, and if he catches your jump, expect to eat utilts until 50% or more.

I just try to DI away and spam f-air until it connects quick enough. That's pretty effective until Mario adapts in one way or another.

 

[MikeMan214]

The thing that bugs me a lot about mewtwo is that his side b you can jump out of. Other than it reflecting stuff I really don't see it very useful.

 

[Chiroz]

So, I've noticed something odd about Mewtwos up tilt: It can combo up to 8 times at 0% on Metaknight. I've tried this with different characters of different sizes, weight classes, and heights, but almost everyone else is knocked out of it after 2 up tilts. It kind of works on Villager, but while he'll be stuck for 3 utilts, his hitbox evades the other two, until he's knocked out again. Has anybody been able to combo utilt > utilt > utilt > utilt.... with any other character with Mewtwo?

Fox, Bowser can be done until about 500% or more.

I already said this in a thread but one of the U-Tilt hitboxes has incredibly, incredibly low knockback scaling, it's also the hitbox with the smallest knockback. If your opponent is a fast faller then U-Tilt can infinitely combo. The problem is, if they DI into you then the second U-Tilt will hit with another hitbox and the combo will end. So no, it isn't close to being an infinite, but if your opponent is a fast faller and just keeps trying to DI away then just U-Tilt to your hearts content .

 

[Enoki]

Some of confusion's uses include air stalling, switching directions midair, recovering/offstage game, punishing shields (with more range than grab), setting up opponents for usmash iff under a platform, forcing the opponent to react and possibly putting yourself in an advantageous position, and, if nothing else, racking up some damage.

Also, fun trick I've used occasionally: if you use confusion sometime midair, the next confusion won't cancel your momentum. So since people often shield as you're landing (because they expect an aerial), falling confusion can punish that. It helps with landing just a bit, I suppose.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

The thing that bugs me a lot about mewtwo is that his side b you can jump out of. Other than it reflecting stuff I really don't see it very useful.

I noticed this too. Some characters can nair/bair/fair directly out of the flip, making it detrimental during battle.

Fox, Bowser can be done until about 500% or more.

I could have sworn I tried it with Bowser, and he fell out of the tilt after two hits. Maybe I'm mistaken; I'll have to try it again.

 

[Chiroz]

I could have sworn I tried it with Bowser, and he fell out of the tilt after two hits. Maybe I'm mistaken; I'll have to try it again.

He might need to be DIng away for it to happen. As I said, that specific hitbox is what combos the character and since that hitbox is at a very specific "range" if the character moves out of that range he gets hit by the other hitboxes which do knock him away.

So basically this chain works as long as your opponent keeps DIng into the correct "space" where the hitbox is (or for some characters, doesn't DI at all). Your opponent must also be a fast faller I believe.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Guys, I get that Mewtwo has some really nice strings but doesn't mean you're supposed to go full aggro with him. He can combo just fine off of a defensive playstyle. Just learn how to convert damage off of defensive plays.

He might need to be DIng away for it to happen. As I said, that specific hitbox is what combos the character and since that hitbox is at a very specific "range" if the character moves out of that range he gets hit by the other hitboxes which do knock him away.

So basically this chain works as long as your opponent keeps DIng into the correct "space" where the hitbox is (or for some characters, doesn't DI at all). Your opponent must also be a fast faller I believe.

Wait are you talking about like the really close range uptilt thing? Is that actually a combo on characters? lmfao I did this to a fox to like 100% then killed him with an upthrow earlier on FG. I figured he just wasn't shielding for some reason.

 

[Chiroz]

Guys, I get that Mewtwo has some really nice strings but doesn't mean you're supposed to go full aggro with him. He can combo just fine off of a defensive playstyle. Just learn how to convert damage off of defensive plays.


Wait are you talking about like the really close range uptilt thing? Is that actually a combo on characters? lmfao I did this to a fox to like 100% then killed him with an upthrow earlier on FG. I figured he just wasn't shielding for some reason.

It's a combo if they keep DIng the wrong way (away and upwards for fast fallers). If they DI correctly they can either shield (DI downwards) or they get hit by a big knockback which throws them really far away from you (DI into you).

Basically, if someone has never played a Mewtwo and is stupid enough to not try different DIs when trapped in an infinite (like that Fox) then you can 0-Death them.

 

[Crimson Zach]

I feel Mewtwo loses out to shulk big time.
Shulks Nair let's him easily escape up air juggles and Fair seems like it comes out faster than Mewtwo's bair and it might have more range. I have to do more tests bit shulkk might be able score the KO on mmewtwo starting at around 65 percent center stage with a smash art f smash so shulk has no problem killing since when he's in smash art at the edge and we are at mid - High%s most hits will destroy us. If we take custom shulk into account he gets hyperactive mondado arts he can kill us at 55% (keep in mind this is no DI or Rage) with an uncharged up smash in smash mode. Our up smash will kill earlier on him also when he's in smash mode but we still need to get the setup into it
Overall I think its 70-30 in shulks favor

 

[Saikyoshi]

The key to playing Mewtwo is being defensive and evasive.
Being too offensive is just another way to die.

That describes every single character in the Smash series, you know.

 

[MikeMan214]

I noticed this too. Some characters can nair/bair/fair directly out of the flip, making it detrimental during battle.

Yeah that's what mean man. I just feel like you should be able to do an attack out of it but you can't because you can get hit afterwards. Maybe you could predict an attack and do a shield grab.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

The Jigglypuff matchup for Mewtwo is extremely good for Mewtwo IMO. Space her out with Shadow Balls and tail moves. Once you're at mid rage and she's at ~100%, one up-throw and she's done for.

 

[Sparky15]

The Jigglypuff matchup for Mewtwo is extremely good for Mewtwo IMO. Space her out with Shadow Balls and tail moves. Once you're at mid rage and she's at ~100%, one up-throw and she's done for.

I feel like you can play aggressive against Jigglypuff. Mewtwo's tail attacks outranges her aerials, and landing smash attacks are super-effective as well! You don't even have to worry to much about recovering, since Jigglypuff has to go offstage to earn a quicker KO. Because of your various options, you can attack her yourself, depending on both of your positions, ir grab the ledge and edge guard Jigglypuff. While Mewtwo claims the title of the 3rd lightest character in the game, lighter than Kirby, he can be KO'd fairly easy, especially from a Rest. But the pros more than make for the cons. Definitely in Mewtwo's favor.

 

[Steam]

playing around with him a lot/against him I honestly feel M2 is a contender for the worst character in the game right now. his dthrow combos from melee no longer work and neither do his dtilt combos. His hitboxes are still much smaller than they look with a giant frame that makes him extremely easy to juggle and poke, all while still being one of the lightest characters in the game, dying as early as rosalina. Jab combos into disable which is really neat, but this character's neutral is so bad I can't see how he's going to land anything. Like honestly what options does mewtwo have against strong characters like fox, mario, rosalina, or falcon? 3 of the 4 completely body the character with their jab alone and all mewtwo can do against rosalina is throw hurtboxes into luma. I'm not sure what you guys are seeing but I feel like any character can just run circles around his neutral game.

 

[Nobie]

playing around with him a lot/against him I honestly feel M2 is a contender for the worst character in the game right now. his dthrow combos from melee no longer work and neither do his dtilt combos. His hitboxes are still much smaller than they look with a giant frame that makes him extremely easy to juggle and poke, all while still being one of the lightest characters in the game, dying as early as rosalina. Jab combos into disable which is really neat, but this character's neutral is so bad I can't see how he's going to land anything. Like honestly what options does mewtwo have against strong characters like fox, mario, rosalina, or falcon? 3 of the 4 completely body the character with their jab alone and all mewtwo can do against rosalina is throw hurtboxes into luma. I'm not sure what you guys are seeing but I feel like any character can just run circles around his neutral game.

Though this doesn't speak to overall viability, one ironic thing here is that I think Mewtwo has an advantage against the very character in your avatar.

I think that one thing that makes Mewtwo feel like total crap at times is how utterly demoralizing it can be to get tossed around and taken out with one string, which Mewtwo is vulnerable against. I think Mewtwo does have some issues with rushdown and most of the characters you've mentioned, but has a lot of tools to deal with the majority of the cast, particularly big-bodied characters like DK and Charizard. It's possible Mewtwo is in a Little Mac or Dedede-esque situation, where there are just some bad news matchups, and some that are perfectly manageable.

 

[kirby3021]

Speaking of poor matchups, how about that PacMan? I've only got a few games to go off of (against a player I can regularly beat), but I got destroyed by PacMan. His fruit cancels a fully charged shadow ball, if you reflect it it won't go all the way back to him unless you're close. Any tips?

 

[Enoki]

2 things:
First, please don't hate me, but I don't think Mewtwo should be played just defensively. So people are calling him a glass cannon, but we focus on the glass rather than the cannon. "Don't get hit?" We all know that Mewtwo has bad defensive options. In my experience, we should make use of what he does have (amazing combo and kill potential) rather than exclusively focusing on negating his biggest weakness (defense and being killed early). I'm definitely not saying to play rushdown.
Basically, here's my logic against someone like Sheik: We have no defense. She will always overcome our evasive maneuvers. BUT we can maybe win if we get the early kills.
As soon as I switched from always trying to avoid avoid avoid, I found Mewtwo way more satisfying and fun, as well as way more successful. Just food for thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdB_45aRjc
^This is the video that inspired my new mentality. It's in the video thread, but I figure it should be spread more.
tl;dr Don't play TOO defensively - I think Mewtwo is at a disadvantage whenever he's being pressured.

Secondly: People please test out landing uair. In my testing, it has as little landing lag as nair or fair, and combos VERY well at various percents. Also, surprisingly you can SH AD and land an uair right after! Not all of these are guaranteed all the time, but they work for me against humans almost always.
At low percents:
uair->jab
uair-> grab
uair->dtilt
Mid Percents:
uair->utilt
uair->ftilt
uair-> nair or fair

Can people test this out more? I think it might actually be one of our best combo starting moves.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

2 things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdB_45aRjc
^This is the video that inspired my new mentality.

That video tho. O_O

2 things:

uair->jab
uair-> grab
uair->dtilt
Mid Percents:
uair->utilt
uair->ftilt
uair-> nair or fair

Can people test this out more? I think it might actually be one of our best combo starting moves.

At 0% -> mid percents, I think Mewtwo can string utilt -> uair -> bair on some characters for hefty damage. At least that's what I've found. how would you uair into a grab though?

 

[FlynnCL]

Basically, here's my logic against someone like Sheik: We have no defense. She will always overcome our evasive maneuvers. BUT we can maybe win if we get the early kills.
As soon as I switched from always trying to avoid avoid avoid, I found Mewtwo way more satisfying and fun, as well as way more successful. Just food for thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdB_45aRjc
^This is the video that inspired my new mentality. It's in the video thread, but I figure it should be spread more.
tl;dr Don't play TOO defensively - I think Mewtwo is at a disadvantage whenever he's being pressured.

What does Mewtwo have to reliably pressure opponents who have much better neutral tools than him? Trying to go head-on against a Sheik or Falcon is just asking to get messed up by their good tools (whether it be jab for Falcon or Sheik's forward tilt). If Mewtwo had the reliable tools to put him at an aggressive advantage position and get kills in the first place I'm sure his outlook would be a lot better right now.

Who was the Pit player in the video? Because the majority of the time he was just asking to get grabbed, he was getting baited into dash attacking shield, he wasn't air-dodging almost at all, he wasn't using aerial arrows and he was just short hopping aerials while Mewtwo was just throwing out Shadow Balls.

I just find that most of his tools are too slow for aggression and get beat out by most jabs, tilts and every shield. Taking any unnecessary damage hurts the most when you're so light and floaty.

 

[Enoki]

If you hit with just the tip of the tail at super low percents (I can't remember, but it's probs like <15%), it barely lifts them off the ground. Thus, uair->grab. Note that this will likely only work on big characters or fastfallers.

I'm definitely not advocating full-on aggression. Mewtwo is flawed and doesn't have the tools, that's for sure. But in most of the mewtwo videos I've seen/mewtwos I've played, people spend way too much time rolling and just trying to get away. Constantly resetting to neutral really doesn't help Mewtwo because he loses in neutral; there has to be more focus on putting on some type of pressure. As it stands right now, I feel like the future of competitive Mewtwo is somewhat similar to that of Ganon's: getting in your opponent's head, getting hard reads and capitalizing on them big time. I think taking some risks are kinda necessary, even if we don't have safe approach options. Unfortunately Mewtwo doesn't have Ganon's weight to make up for failed risks, but at least we have more mobility.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Speaking of poor matchups, how about that PacMan? I've only got a few games to go off of (against a player I can regularly beat), but I got destroyed by PacMan. His fruit cancels a fully charged shadow ball, if you reflect it it won't go all the way back to him unless you're close. Any tips?

I disagree, I think the MU is in M2's favor. Side B is great at reflecting, doesn't matter if it hits them but you are now forcing them to worry about their own projectile which should force them to think more b4 throwing the item. During this time you could go in and react to what opponent does (grab their shield, u-air their jump, other stuff) and you can charge your shadowball.

I posted this in the video thread. I don't think either of us were at our best (and was a little silly on decision making in game 2 and 3 but hey its been 3 days and 1st time as m2 on a stream) but mb it'll help? http://www.twitch.tv/piiff/b/651466998 @ 3:06:00

2 things:
People please test out landing uair. In my testing, it has as little landing lag as nair or fair, and combos VERY well at various percents. Also, surprisingly you can SH AD and land an uair right after! Not all of these are guaranteed all the time, but they work for me against humans almost always.
Can people test this out more? I think it might actually be one of our best combo starting moves.

landing uair? Quick question is the u-air hitting a ground opponent or an opponent in the air? I know the answer should seem obvious but I would like to confirm. Because I had tried falling u-air to pop someone from the ground but sadly I don't think uair has a hitbox for like the lower half of his body.
so.... you are falling u-air on an aerial opponent to followup?

 

[Enoki]

Nope, landing uair on a grounded opponent. It might not hit short opponents. They have to be in front of you. The timing is about the same as trying to hit with a landing fair, actually.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can he cancel shadow balls in the air still? You can do that pretty fast in melee with practice. Not even nearly close to DJC, but perhaps it would be useful in Sm4sh somehow. If the shadow ball charge has a nice hitbox you could possibly use it to turn around shadowball charge -> cancel -> aerial.

Unfortunately, Shadow Ball doesn't have a hitbox while charging anymore. Lucario's Aura Sphere does, but not Mewtwo's ¯\_ツ_/¯

 

[Steam]

Though this doesn't speak to overall viability, one ironic thing here is that I think Mewtwo has an advantage against the very character in your avatar.

I think that one thing that makes Mewtwo feel like total crap at times is how utterly demoralizing it can be to get tossed around and taken out with one string, which Mewtwo is vulnerable against. I think Mewtwo does have some issues with rushdown and most of the characters you've mentioned, but has a lot of tools to deal with the majority of the cast, particularly big-bodied characters like DK and Charizard. It's possible Mewtwo is in a Little Mac or Dedede-esque situation, where there are just some bad news matchups, and some that are perfectly manageable.

I'm not sure about M2 vs lucario, though either way Lucario's like mid tier so it's not significant. on one hand mewtwo can kill lucario reliably at 120~ with throws, on the other hand mewtwo will die jaw droppingly early as soon as lucario nears 100. In addition M2 is one of the few characters lucario can actually bully at neutral. Overall I just can't see M2 winning many matchups because he still has a mismatch in traits from melee AND they removed his combo game so racking damage is hard.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Nope, landing uair on a grounded opponent. It might not hit short opponents. They have to be in front of you. The timing is about the same as trying to hit with a landing fair, actually.

huh. mb I was too close to opponent. will try to hit with the tip of the tail, but like in 6 hours?
Hopefully I can get it to work, cuz yah a low knockback uair seems like a great way to start something

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

huh. mb I was too close to opponent. will try to hit with the tip of the tail, but like in 6 hours?
Hopefully I can get it to work, cuz yah a low knockback uair seems like a great way to start something

I played around with this a bit. you can't fire up the uair as Mewtwo is jumping up, but rather short hop and unleash it during mewtwos falling animation. it's a bit tricky to gt the hang of, but Enoki is correct in that it looks stellar for combo potential. Thing is, it is a bit tricky to use, so I wouldn't be surprised if only Pro Mewtwo players really got the hang of this. There are easier combo options for the psychic humanoid, after all.

 

[flying_tortoise]

I played around with this a bit. you can't fire up the uair as Mewtwo is jumping up, but rather short hop and unleash it during mewtwos falling animation. it's a bit tricky to gt the hang of, but Enoki is correct in that it looks stellar for combo potential. Thing is, it is a bit tricky to use, so I wouldn't be surprised if only Pro Mewtwo players really got the hang of this. There are easier combo options for the psychic humanoid, after all.

Cool thx man, nice to know what I can expect.

Edit: continuing discussion in the Mewtwo combo & tech sharing thread

 

[MookieRah]

So I watched a few videos of people playing as M2 and I have some questions and some tips:

First, does uair suck really bad or something? I see soooo many melee-uair opportunities after people use down-throw and everyone is just throwing out fairs (and missing). It does seem that uair is very... odd with it's timing and it's hitbox, but when your opponent DI's so that he goes up and just a tiny bit away it would be a guaranteed hit (assuming there isn't time to air-dodge).

Secondly, downthrow doesn't seem to have anything guaranteed that you can do off of it, yet everyone tries to go really offensive afterwards as if it does. It seems in most cases that it puts your opponent in a really bad position, and one that you could simply be patient and react instead of pre-emptively showing your hand. Look at it this way, if you are patient and they air-dodge, you get a free grab. If they attack immediately and you can react with shield, another free grab or whatever is quick enough. At worst they DI away and land unscathed, but as long as you take that space you gain a nice chunk of stage so it's all wins. Just something to think about.

I think a lot of Sm4sh players could learn a lot by reading up on melee game theory, as it seems that pretty much everyone I've watched so far doesn't seem to understand some concepts that would help. Stuff like not committing when you don't have to, understanding the neutral game/pokes, spacing, and stage control all apply to pretty much any smash game. The info is already out there guys, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Kalierdarke]

So I watched a few videos of people playing as M2 and I have some questions and some tips:

First, does uair suck really bad or something? I see soooo many melee-uair opportunities after people use down-throw and everyone is just throwing out fairs (and missing). It does seem that uair is very... odd with it's timing and it's hitbox, but when your opponent DI's so that he goes up and just a tiny bit away it would be a guaranteed hit (assuming there isn't time to air-dodge).

Secondly, downthrow doesn't seem to have anything guaranteed that you can do off of it, yet everyone tries to go really offensive afterwards as if it does. It seems in most cases that it puts your opponent in a really bad position, and one that you could simply be patient and react instead of pre-emptively showing your hand. Look at it this way, if you are patient and they air-dodge, you get a free grab. If they attack immediately and you can react with shield, another free grab or whatever is quick enough. At worst they DI away and land unscathed, but as long as you take that space you gain a nice chunk of stage so it's all wins. Just something to think about.

I think a lot of Sm4sh players could learn a lot by reading up on melee game theory, as it seems that pretty much everyone I've watched so far doesn't seem to understand some concepts that would help. Stuff like not committing when you don't have to, understanding the neutral game/pokes, spacing, and stage control all apply to pretty much any smash game. The info is already out there guys, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

This would probably be better for a different thread than the matchup thread. However since it's here, at low %s it seems dash attack and shadow ball can reliably follow up downthrow againt many MUs. I wouldn't call them a combo, but in many cases you will hit.

 

[MookieRah]

Dashattack overcommits and shadowball doesn't allow you to claim more stage control. Those only work in mixup situations, what I'm discussing is something that gives an advantage pretty much every time, even if it's a small advantage.

Something like downthrow -> walk forward to proper range dependent upon opponent's DI, allows you all of M2's options to react to your opponent while also taking away valuable stage, further limiting your opponent's options.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Dashattack overcommits and shadowball doesn't allow you to claim more stage control. Those only work in mixup situations, what I'm discussing is something that gives an advantage pretty much every time, even if it's a small advantage.

Something like downthrow -> walk forward to proper range dependent upon opponent's DI, allows you all of M2's options to react to your opponent while also taking away valuable stage, further limiting your opponent's options.

Fair enough. would be nice if downthrow had actual options instead of stuff that might work.

 

[MookieRah]

Well that's what I'm sorta discussing here. People seem to go for stuff that isn't there instead of thinking what downthrow actually gives them.

Honestly, in melee downthrow isn't much different, as it only gives combos if your opponent messes up a really easy DI. It is still a great throw though, because if they DI away they give up a lot of stage, and if they don't DI away/tech away they are in danger of tech-chasing. Once you have them in a tech chase, it's easy then to simply prevent them from rolling through you (so that they have stage control) and to slowly press them closer to the ledge. Once they are close to the ledge, they don't have the space they need to escape and are forced to take the offensive from a disadvantaged position. This doesn't always mean you get stuff out of it, but it averages out so that you win the majority due to stacking the odds against your opponent.

Sm4sh is different from melee, but these concepts still exist. Just because a throw doesn't give you a guaranteed followup doesn't mean it's bad at all.