Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[BarSoapSoup]

I would recommend people to refrain from posting until they get more familiar with a char.


Corrin can instantly Spear from the ground for a 4-8 frames punish. A good Corrin could OoS punish everything but maybe your jab (as Bowser) once he understands that. It deals almost 20% and the kick kills super early.

It's also very safe since they can dash away almost instantly, although I still need to learn the timing to see if it's punisheable.

Saying the Spear isn't good is just people who aren't playing Corrin well yet. As I said I've only played 1 Corrin out of like 70 that actually used Side-B as a punish instead of randomly throwing it out in neutral like most Corrin players who have no idea what they are doing.

I'm not saying that Lunge isn't good, but I find surprising that a kill move of that power would be that fast and that safe. It sounds so unbelievably broken that it's amazing that Candy Corns just don't wait for someone to take a smelly fart on their shield and then punish with Lunge.

 

[Aninymouse]

Both Corrin and Bayonetta are a bit overwhelming for the rest of the cast to deal with at times, yes.

Corrin's only discernible weakness is the low-tier recovery. Bayonetta doesn't even really have a solid weakness; the only weakness is unoptomized Bayonetta players, thus far.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm not saying that Lunge isn't good, but I find surprising that a kill move of that power would be that fast and that safe. It sounds so unbelievably broken that it's amazing that Candy Corns just don't wait for someone to take a smelly fart on their shield and then punish with Lunge.

That's because they still don't understand how the move works.

To be honest we don't either. It could be punisheable before she dashes away, she has to stick there for a second but I still haven't figured out the timing or what to do at that point because I am always scared of getting kicked.

Also Smashboards isn't exactly a conglomeration of "skilled" people. Back when Mewtwo was released people were complaining Confusion was a bad move and should be buffed even though I tried to explain otherwise.

Regularly you want to look at hard data more than opinions and stories. Frame data, range, angle, knockback, etc is almost always more reliable.

For now Lunge seems incredibly powerful, it's fast, it hits hards, seems to be incredibly safe and it's a kill move. There might be something we are missing but we need to go with the info we got at hand.

 

[Chiroz]

Both Corrin and Bayonetta are a bit overwhelming for the rest of the cast to deal with at times, yes.

Corrin's only discernible weakness is the low-tier recovery. Bayonetta doesn't even really have a solid weakness; the only weakness is unoptomized Bayonetta players, thus far.

One thing I've noticed about Corrin's recovery is that sometimes when you trade with it with FF N-Air it spikes Corrin downwards, and I don't mean like it normally does, I mean like an actual powerful spike. Is there anyone who could lab why this happens?

Because normally I just kamikaze into her recovery with N-Air hoping to spike her in such a way. I get it 1/4th of the time but the other 3/4th I either just trade 1% for 4% or get hit by the full move and lose stage control and get placed on a possible juggle situation. If we can figure this one out we could probably do it consistently and that matchup might become much more bearable.

 

[TheRealSkid]

Chiroz you just mentioned confusion. This actually made me wonder, what is the preferred use for it? I use it to reflect things and sometimes to command grab a read. Is there another way I should use it?

 

[Chiroz]

Chiroz you just mentioned confusion. This actually made me wonder, what is the preferred use for it? I use it to reflect things and sometimes to command grab a read. Is there another way I should use it?

I would say Confusion is probably my 3rd most used attack aside from D-Tilt and F-Air. It could be 4th/5th because of Shadow Ball/N-Air but that mostly depends on the matchup.

Regularly I use it instead of grabs since it has much more range and it only deals 4% less. I only go for grabs to get stage positioning, an edge guard opportunity or to get a kill or kill setup, I don't regularly go for the 13% F-Throw unless it gives me one of the above.

Confusion also leads to a lot of mixups, depending on the char you're against and how your opponent likes to react. Does he go for an attack? Does he air dodge? Does he jump? Etc.

I also use Confusion to beat aerial spacing sometimes. Confusion is actually our biggest disjoint so when an opponent just wants to wall me out, 9% (and a possible conversion) from an unexpected Confusion is always good.

There's also the obvious, recovery + chasing/running away. Confusion gives us a huge burst of speed but it has a lot of endlag. If you want to chase/run away from an opponent and KNOW that you won't need to attack and won't be attacked yourself using Confusion to gain that boost is pretty great.

Something I need to incorporate into my game is using B-Reverse and Wavebounces to mix up my landing - which is another good use.

 

[godogod]

Chiroz you just mentioned confusion. This actually made me wonder, what is the preferred use for it? I use it to reflect things and sometimes to command grab a read. Is there another way I should use it?

Besides reflecting, using it once in the air actually gives mewtwo vertical boost, which aids in recovering back to a stage. Besides that, good for mixups and it can combo into a quick forward smash if opponents don't DI out of it.

 

[Deleted member]

Just thought I'd post my own matchup spread for Mewtwo. Feel free to ask any questions on this. This comes from the experiences I've had with these characters mostly at my weeklies, and fighting others on Wi-Fi.

Note: matchup can be greatly affected by stage choice.

 

[TheRealSkid]

@Feelicks this great, truly.
I just don't know if cloud, marth and corrin are even...idk....what was your reasoning for this?
But I agree so far with the rest.

 

[Deleted member]

@Feelicks this great, truly.
I just don't know if cloud, marth and corrin are even...idk....what was your reasoning for this?
But I agree so far with the rest.

Besides Mew^2's set with M2K, Mewtwo is able to catch up with Cloud in neutral and negates Limit camping most of the time with Shadow Ball and his long ranged aerials. Mewtwo still has to respect Cloud's great range, pressuring abilities and whenever he has Limit onboard, but however, Mewtwo has a huge advantage against Cloud offstage. It makes me feel like it's starkly even.

Mewtwo can abuse Corrin's poor mobility and Dragon Fang Shot isn't particularly effective in this MU considering we have Confusion. Once again, we have a notable advantage against him offstage. Marth I was considering even, but I believe Mewtwo has a slight advantage with him being able to contend well with Marth's aerial spacing, and he can get around one of Marth's greatest strengths: edgeguarding.

 

[meleebrawler]

You ought to put an asterisk on Little Mac since the MU's difficulty is greatly affected by stage choice. He's tough on Final Destination and Battlefield, but stages like Duck Hunt and Town & City can make him cry. Even on his good stages I find the match too volatile to be worse than -1 for either side.

 

[Deleted member]

You ought to put an asterisk on Little Mac since the MU's difficulty is greatly affected by stage choice. He's tough on Final Destination and Battlefield, but stages like Duck Hunt and Town & City can make him cry. Even on his good stages I find the match too volatile to be worse than -1 for either side.

This is a valid point. The program doesn't allow you to do that so I'll just edit my post with that note.

Always struggled as Mewtwo against Mac, but that's what I get for mostly picking Battlefield and Smashville against him. I'll see how it plays out on other stages.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

View attachment 102065

Just thought I'd post my own matchup spread for Mewtwo. Feel free to ask any questions on this. This comes from the experiences I've had with these characters mostly at my weeklies, and fighting others on Wi-Fi.

Note: matchup can be greatly affected by stage choice.

Is Kirby really losing that one that badly? I mean, Kirby has those combos should he get in (of course, there is that problem), but Kirby has those good damage racking combos. And when it reaches time to KO, he has a plethora of kill options. Up-throw (which can be equal to or better than Mewtwo's should platforms be involved), D-air to smashes (D-Smash is one I see that works on floaties, which I believe Mewtwo is). It's also hard to combo him. Small size and floatiness make it awkward. I think +1 should be more appropriate. Also, what I'm bringing up here was also brought up here. P.S. The tier list we created in that thread is outdated at this point.

 

[Megamang]

I don't think killing mewtwo is nearly as easy as you make it sound Shadow Keebey , especially if they are playing correctly. With Mewtwo's big disjoints, fast air speed, and low landing lag, not to mention his huge mobility, it can be hard for kirby to land a good hit. I can't see him winning the MU to be honest, especially when our kill throw is still stronger (except maybe on a battlefield platform)

@Seagull Joe recently said in the Tiers thread that the MU with sonic is even, and I tend to agree. At least, its definitely not -2. Mewtwo has a projectile to for his approach, and tools to deal with all his approaches (it comes down to player skill to choose the right tools at the right time). Maybe sonic can avoid kills a little better than we can?

 

[Shadow Keebey]

I don't think killing mewtwo is nearly as easy as you make it sound Shadow Keebey , especially if they are playing correctly. With Mewtwo's big disjoints, fast air speed, and low landing lag, not to mention his huge mobility, it can be hard for kirby to land a good hit. I can't see him winning the MU to be honest, especially when our kill throw is still stronger (except maybe on a battlefield platform)

I'm not saying Kirby wins, I'm saying the matchup should be +1 in M2's favour instead of +2, for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Megamang]

Oh...

Yea, that makes total sense. He can be a little difficult to hit with his shortness, and he keeps getting freakin stronger (seriously, I fear kirby 1.2.0. might just be a small ganondorf) so its kinda tricky, but our mobility edges us out. Agreed +1

 

[Shadow Keebey]

Oh...

Yea, that makes total sense. He can be a little difficult to hit with his shortness, and he keeps getting freakin stronger (seriously, I fear kirby 1.2.0. might just be a small ganondorf) so its kinda tricky, but our mobility edges us out. Agreed +1

Kirby just has crapproach, a pretty bad airspeed, and a predictable recovery.
Some ideal buffs for Kirby include:
Air speed buff (at least to 0.85, but obviously, more is better)
Faster Final Cutter (reduce start & endlag)
Range buffs.
and Further ground movespeed buffs (seriously, we do so poorly against Sonic, it's our undeniably worst matchup).

This isn't a Kirby thread though, it's a Mewtwo thread.
At least Mewtwo isn't a laughing stock anymore.

 

[Megamang]

Nah, mewtwo is amazing now.

Can't buff everyone's mobility, but I do agree that kirby should have good airspeed. Or, leave him with crap airspeed, and then let him zip around the ground at Mario speed! He shouldn't be so slow. If he is, give him huge, stretchy hitboxes since he can contort himself!

Idk, kirby feels fun to play but competitively he has his flaws.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

Nah, mewtwo is amazing now.

Can't buff everyone's mobility, but I do agree that kirby should have good airspeed. Or, leave him with crap airspeed, and then let him zip around the ground at Mario speed! He shouldn't be so slow. If he is, give him huge, stretchy hitboxes since he can contort himself!

Idk, kirby feels fun to play but competitively he has his flaws.

It's strange. Kirby's been getting better slowly.
1.0.6 saw him obtain slightly better KO potential on some smashes, and slight buffs to Inhale and (the still borderline useless) Hammer.
1.1.0 saw him get a valuable combo throw (and by extension, a possibility of powerful combos) and Inhale becoming even better.
1.1.1 gave buffs to customs, but also hurt Kirby, as he was a "punish OoS character".
1.1.3 (His best update so far) gave him more kill power on all smashes, faster dash, weight increase, aerials buffs, a kill throw, and more kill power to all Hammers (but only Hammer Bash would still be considered "meh")
1.1.4 gave a small buff to his tripping invincibility frames
And 1.1.5 gave further kill power buffs to all smashes and all Hammers.

Kirby has enough kill power now. Give him buffs that can actually help him become better. Air Speed and FC frame data & projectile range buffs would definitely be the most welcomed.
He's on the cusp of viability.

 

[Megamang]

While we are on the subject of Kirby viability, I had an interesting thought recently about a unique way to buff him (since the balance team clearly wants to avoid creating 50 Marios).

Tell me what you think about each of these:

a) Kirby starts the round with the enemy's power. Some sort of animation would account for the logistics of this, or he could just start with the hat sans animation and it wouldn't be directly un-cannon

b) once kirby has a power, he cannot lose it by being hit. Being hit and losing powers feels random now, and is really frustrating considering how hard you have to work to get the power, and how much of a difference in a MU it can make. Someone is timing you out, and you've got their projectile and 2 minutes to get a stock? Not bad, but one bad hit and you're totally screwed.


Obviously both of these together would be best case for Kirby, and wouldn't really make him polarizing-ly strong or even top 10 in my eyes. When the start of the game is basically always the opponent just chucking their free projectile at Kirby while he stares at it enviously, I'd like to see these changes to help him have a chance early (a) or late game timeout (b) situations.


Now, I know these kinds of changes are definitely not what the balance team is doing, especially by now. There is almost no chance either of these changes will ever see the light of day, or even the light of beta testing... but hypothetically, what do you think of these?

To me, Kirby's signature thing is his copy ability! But against wary and skilled opponents, there is a very real chance you won't even get a chance to have the power.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

While we are on the subject of Kirby viability, I had an interesting thought recently about a unique way to buff him (since the balance team clearly wants to avoid creating 50 Marios).

Tell me what you think about each of these:

a) Kirby starts the round with the enemy's power. Some sort of animation would account for the logistics of this, or he could just start with the hat sans animation and it wouldn't be directly un-cannon

b) once kirby has a power, he cannot lose it by being hit. Being hit and losing powers feels random now, and is really frustrating considering how hard you have to work to get the power, and how much of a difference in a MU it can make. Someone is timing you out, and you've got their projectile and 2 minutes to get a stock? Not bad, but one bad hit and you're totally screwed.


Obviously both of these together would be best case for Kirby, and wouldn't really make him polarizing-ly strong or even top 10 in my eyes. When the start of the game is basically always the opponent just chucking their free projectile at Kirby while he stares at it enviously, I'd like to see these changes to help him have a chance early (a) or late game timeout (b) situations.


Now, I know these kinds of changes are definitely not what the balance team is doing, especially by now. There is almost no chance either of these changes will ever see the light of day, or even the light of beta testing... but hypothetically, what do you think of these?

To me, Kirby's signature thing is his copy ability! But against wary and skilled opponents, there is a very real chance you won't even get a chance to have the power.

For the first one:
There are copy abilities that are either inferior to Inhale, or just straight up garbage. As much of style moves as they are, Falcon and Warlock Punch would be crap to start with. There are other not so great abilities such as Straight Lunge, Rollout, Dedede Inhale, the PK's, not to mention that there exists the possibility of a Kirby ditto. You would need to create an opening to dispose of the abilities via taunt. If Kirby had an easier time approaching (or could actually force approaches himself), then the problem of copying wouldn't be so big

The 2nd one:
Some reasons are given above. Plus, some matchups are made or broken on the ability. Olimar is the best example. So, instead of making it so he never loses the ability upon taking damage, at least make the amount of damage taken to remove an ability guaranteed (like a reverse KO meter, where the closer the bar is to full, the closer you are to losing the ability). Say, 50% damage in total with an ability, or 25% damage taken in one hit. At least then there is consistency.

The ideas are decent, but there are some situations in which they aren't really practical.

 

[meleebrawler]

For the first one:
There are copy abilities that are either inferior to Inhale, or just straight up garbage. As much of style moves as they are, Falcon and Warlock Punch would be crap to start with. There are other not so great abilities such as Straight Lunge, Rollout, Dedede Inhale, the PK's, not to mention that there exists the possibility of a Kirby ditto. You would need to create an opening to dispose of the abilities via taunt. If Kirby had an easier time approaching (or could actually force approaches himself), then the problem of copying wouldn't be so big

The 2nd one:
Some reasons are given above. Plus, some matchups are made or broken on the ability. Olimar is the best example. So, instead of making it so he never loses the ability upon taking damage, at least make the amount of damage taken to remove an ability guaranteed (like a reverse KO meter, where the closer the bar is to full, the closer you are to losing the ability). Say, 50% damage in total with an ability, or 25% damage taken in one hit. At least then there is consistency.

The ideas are decent, but there are some situations in which they aren't really practical.

Dedede's Inhale is pretty much a straight upgrade to Kirby's when copying isn't a concern. And I think you're underestimating how short "Hiii" is.

What Kirby needs is a good burst movement option ala Project M Burning.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

Dedede's Inhale is pretty much a straight upgrade to Kirby's when copying isn't a concern. And I think you're underestimating how short "Hiii" is.

Kirby's Inhale has better startup and endlag. And in that matchup, the only thing D3's Inhale does over Kirby's is the ability to inhale Gordo's. That really isn't practical, considering that Kirby has better tools to take care of them (Full hop/short hop (dependent on the Gordo height) FF N-Air, especially if the Dedede tries to reflect the Gordo again, since N-air has very little landing lag, you can land and follow after the Gordo).
Even with the length of the taunt, the only time it could feasibly used without giving up some stage control or edge guarding ability would be when the opponent is KO'd.

 

[Y2Kay]

View attachment 102065

Just thought I'd post my own matchup spread for Mewtwo. Feel free to ask any questions on this. This comes from the experiences I've had with these characters mostly at my weeklies, and fighting others on Wi-Fi.

Note: matchup can be greatly affected by stage choice.

Everyone in your -1 category is even or better IMO, and everyone in your -2 category is -1 as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Everyone in your -1 category is even or better IMO, and everyone in your -2 category is -1 as well.

Would you really consider MK and DK even?

 

[Y2Kay]

Would you really consider MK and DK even?

The results say that DK and Mewtwo are even.

MK main's are actually telling me they lose the matchup now after ladder was removed. Shadow ball camping and down tilt are really tough, and he can't redeem this with stupid ladder combos.

 

[Deleted member]

The results say that DK and Mewtwo are even.

MK main's are actually telling me they lose the matchup now after ladder was removed. Shadow ball camping and down tilt are really tough, and he can't redeem this with stupid ladder combos.

Makes sense...

So, MK can only ladder combo floaties? I know we're not one considering our average falling speed.

 

[Y2Kay]

Makes sense...

So, MK can only ladder combo floaties? I know we're not one considering our average falling speed.

Apparently so . . .

 

[PK Gaming]

The Corrin boards are currently discussing Mewtwo. Feel free to drop and on by and give your 2 cents on the matchup.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Am I the only one who feels like we get blown the **** back by Cloud? No matter how much advice I've followed, theory I've read, etc. I cannot get this MU to work at all. Especially with incredibly defensive Clouds.

He's also one of the few characters who just straight up invalidates our recovery.

EVERYONE at my weekly plays him and I'm losing my mind lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Am I the only one who feels like we get blown the **** back by Cloud? No matter how much advice I've followed, theory I've read, etc. I cannot get this MU to work at all. Especially with incredibly defensive Clouds.

He's also one of the few characters who just straight up invalidates our recovery.

EVERYONE at my weekly plays him and I'm losing my mind lol.

Have a hard time believing anyone "invalidates" our recovery, it's not perfect but unless you keep doing it the same way you shouldn't have too much trouble with it, even versus Limit Cross Slash.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Have a hard time believing anyone "invalidates" our recovery, it's not perfect but unless you keep doing it the same way you shouldn't have too much trouble with it, even versus Limit Cross Slash.

From my experience we go high and he swats us out of the air with nair or uair and either kills us or puts up in a terrible position or we go low and his dair catches our two frame because it lasts so long. I guess the option I've had the most success with is wall jump confusion. Oh, also the fact that if he calls our double jump he can kill us at 60% off stage is incredibly disheartening.

The nice thing is if we get him offstage and he does have/doesn't get limit he's incredibly easy to kill. I won't deny that, but getting him off stage is so hard. The man has the most absurd neutral.

 

[420quickscoper]

View attachment 102065

Just thought I'd post my own matchup spread for Mewtwo. Feel free to ask any questions on this. This comes from the experiences I've had with these characters mostly at my weeklies, and fighting others on Wi-Fi.

Note: matchup can be greatly affected by stage choice.

I don't think Sonic, Falcon, or Fox should be in Notable Disadvantage anymore. To me, those are only 55:45 matchups, and Sonic is probably 50:50.
For Disadvantage, I would put MK in even (or even Advantage), and put Sheik in even, and put Pikachu in even.
For Even, put ZSS into -1 Disadvantage.
For Notable Advantage, I'd put Jigglypuff in Advantage, Robin in Advantage, Kirby in Even, and... well, Wii Fit Trainer I barely know jack squat about so I don't really care.

 

[iVoltage]

From my experience we go high and he swats us out of the air with nair or uair and either kills us or puts up in a terrible position or we go low and his dair catches our two frame because it lasts so long. I guess the option I've had the most success with is wall jump confusion. Oh, also the fact that if he calls our double jump he can kill us at 60% off stage is incredibly disheartening.

The nice thing is if we get him offstage and he does have/doesn't get limit he's incredibly easy to kill. I won't deny that, but getting him off stage is so hard. The man has the most absurd neutral.

Cloud mu is alot of mind games and baiting. You have to get close to him or he just charges limit. I like to stay about dtilt range and react to his options. Alot of clouds will roll away from you when you approach so you can try to predict them to get strings going.
Overall I think the mu is rather even, cloud can be annoying on stage but you can gimp him.

 

[deviljin545]

can i get a guide on what to do in option select.