Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have one thing that needs to be kept note on, in regards to Mewtwo vs. Bowser Jr.; beware of the Koopa Meteor custom special. Once the Clown Car explodes, Bowser Jr. can deal heavy damage and knockback to Mewtwo if he hits it directly. As such, Mewtwo should only really counter the move from a distance if it doesn't want to risk getting KO'd too early.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does Dtilt out space ZSS's grab?

 

[LRodC]

When VS a good Little Mac, it's very tough as Mewtwo to establish stage control when he's on the ground, and it's even harder to punish his attacks considering they're fairly safe on block with a lot of pushback. You also have very little time to charge SB considering he's so fast and it's also tough to land since Mac has some great anti-air options. The ledge is not always safe either due to his down smash. When he's off stage or in the air, he's completely at your mercy, but when he's on stage, he seems very hard to fight as you can't even hope to match his neutral or regain the stage. Any advice on fighting him?

 

[meleebrawler]

When VS a good Little Mac, it's very tough as Mewtwo to establish stage control when he's on the ground, and it's even harder to punish his attacks considering they're fairly safe on block with a lot of pushback. You also have very little time to charge SB considering he's so fast and it's also tough to land since Mac has some great anti-air options. The ledge is not always safe either due to his down smash. When he's off stage or in the air, he's completely at your mercy, but when he's on stage, he seems very hard to fight as you can't even hope to match his neutral or regain the stage. Any advice on fighting him?

Not much to say about Mac, you just gotta take him out before he takes you out. An offensive approach works better here I find, and don't be afraid to use uthrow to start juggles here either.

Or, just pick Smashville/Duck Hunt and make him cry.

 

[LRodC]

Not much to say about Mac, you just gotta take him out before he takes you out. An offensive approach works better here I find, and don't be afraid to use uthrow to start juggles here either.

Or, just pick Smashville/Duck Hunt and make him cry.

Good call on u-throw. I almost never use it aside from kills, so I never really thought about it versus Mac. I'll try it next time I bump into a good one, which is fairly rare.

And yeah, he is a lot easier to fight on those stages. He definitely gets the most mileage out of FD/Omega, and DH is just hilarious. It's also funny how he just misses getting on the platforms in Dream Land 64 when he full hops. Battlefield isn't too bad for him though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I have been looking into Uthrow more, and at low Percents, it is really good. As you guys know, staling is only a nine move long list, thus, Uthrow should be fresh by the time killing comes around.

 

[Browny]

When I play vs Little mac, I get him until he has one bar left until KO punch and then camp on the ledge or run away and only go for full charge shadowballs. That way your next attack is guaranteed to kill him (follow him with a nair offstage incase the bthrow/fcsb doesnt kill) so he never gets KO punch. Its risky, but its also risky for mac. It's worked well for me in the past.

 

[sparkaura]

Fox is so god damn difficult. That MU is the biggest struggle ever lol.

 

[Sonicninja115]

When I play vs Little mac, I get him until he has one bar left until KO punch and then camp on the ledge or run away and only go for full charge shadowballs. That way your next attack is guaranteed to kill him (follow him with a nair offstage incase the bthrow/fcsb doesnt kill) so he never gets KO punch. Its risky, but its also risky for mac. It's worked well for me in the past.

You also have to be careful of the counter, as that is a viable recovery option on hit.

Fox is so god damn difficult. That MU is the biggest struggle ever lol.

yep. do your best to gimp him, pray to sakurai and then hope for the best.

The best advice I have for that MU is don't get hit.

 

[sparkaura]

At least he's combo food. I've gotten some pretty cool stuff off on fox. I

 

[Sonicninja115]

At least he's combo food. I've gotten some pretty cool stuff off on fox. I

SH Fair-jab-lock. I love it.

 

[Mr. B]

I got my shield broken playing against a Falcon, then got inverted-Falcon-Punched.

It's not a good MU for Mewtwo...

I strongly disagree. Falcon is my favourite MU, especially when they open with "Show me your moves". I'm like "Come at me bro", and then they run into my NAirs, BAirs and Fairs, over and over.... They cant help but attempt using their amazing dashgrab, but they often find that I have baited them into it, SH back into FCSB. I have never been frametrapped in a combo, and I seem to be able to read and land Disable with much greater efficiency than other MUs

 

[ShadowKing]

In my opinion m2 beats bayo because it turns out he can with stand witch time I belive its called

 

[Chiroz]

In my opinion m2 beats bayo because it turns out he can with stand witch time I belive its called

No he can't. He's just like any other char. Sure U-Smash and N-Air will keep you safe from Bayo's Smashes during Witch Time, but those are 2 moves in our whole kit. Plus Bayo decides when to Witch Time, not Mewtwo and if Bayo gets it she could just go for other attacks that aren't Smashes.

 

[ShadowKing]

No he can't. He's just like any other char. Sure U-Smash and N-Air will keep you safe from Bayo's Smashes during Witch Time, but those are 2 moves in our whole kit. Plus Bayo decides when to Witch Time, not Mewtwo and if Bayo gets it she could just go for other attacks that aren't Smashes.

OK then all you do is grab

 

[Zarxrax]

The bayonetta matchup seems really hard, but I'm hoping it gets easier as we learn the character better. One of the most difficult things is all of the landing options that bayonetta has at her disposal. It's really hard to punish her landing. Her aerial side b also seems to beat most of our aerials. And that witch time is killer... not to mention her long and damaging combos.

Mewtwo's usmash beats bayonetta's down air.
My dtilt beat grounded side-b on one occasion. I'm not sure if that always works or if I just got lucky.
Shield seems good against her aerial side-b.
That's all I've got for now.

 

[LRodC]

I'll have to fight more Bayonettas to learn that match up. Corrin doesn't seem too bad so far but it's hard to know on day 3.

 

[Murlough]

Copied from other thread as it may be helpfull here:

I've noticed that Bayonetta's neutral special can be a real pain for Mewtwo. It covers all ledge options if spaced correctly. The only way I have been able to avoid getting completely blown back by it was by trying to wait for an opportunity to jump before she has time to fire. After that its an easy punish but in a real competitive match I see her as a real problem for Mewtwo. She also can combo the ever living daylights out of us if given the chance.

This is just my experience and if there are options then please let me know so I can make use of them.

Corrin is very managable for us. S/he needs precise spacing to get early kills on us with his/her smashes (good luck with that xD). His/her Dragon Lance is the main thing for us to watch out for and that isn't too difficult to avoid. His/her lunge is scary but as long as we play it safe there shouldn't be an issue. I think Fair even beats the lunge but I could be wrong.

His/her projectile is pretty risky to use for obvious reasons. The endlag will get him/her paralyzed and we can make better use of it with our superior speed.

I'm not super adept at match-up discussion but I think this is decent.

 

[TheRealSkid]

What about the matchup? I saw a post in another thread that Mewtwo works in this matchup. However, pit's range always walls me out and I have to counter pick to the ditto match (which is better for me). Why is this matchup believed to be doable for ?

 

[meleebrawler]

What about the matchup? I saw a post in another thread that Mewtwo works in this matchup. However, pit's range always walls me out and I have to counter pick to the ditto match (which is better for me). Why is this matchup believed to be doable for ?

The same reason the MU is doable for basically any decent character: the Pits don't have anything particularly extreme (the closest being Electroshock now, but that's very punishable) that make things very hard for Mewtwo.

 

[Mr. B]

I find the bayo MU to be much easier than Corrin. Bayo is really very punishable, which Mewtwo capitalises on when he is not being combo'd (dat rapid jab...), but Corrin is just a storm of disjoints. Her FSmash has amazing range, and the only good advantage I can get is when she uses her projectile (which is trivially easy to reflect or shadowball trump)... if she sticks to her regular attacks I rarely get decent hits without taking one in exchange.

Don't ever use confusion on Corrin directly. She will mess you up.

 

[LRodC]

So I want to talk about Pikachu since that's always a tough MU for me. I personally find it to be very tough to keep up with his attacks and it's especially hard to hit or grab him as well since he's small. My usual combos may not work against him due to his size and mobility, and it's tougher to use Mewtwo's good tools such as forward air. I know this is something that applies to a lot of tall characters, but what's a good way to deal with Pikachu as Mewtwo? He's not impossible, but it's a very annoying match up, so any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Aninymouse]

So I want to talk about Pikachu since that's always a tough MU for me. I personally find it to be very tough to keep up with his attacks and it's especially hard to hit or grab him as well since he's small. My usual combos may not work against him due to his size and mobility, and it's tougher to use Mewtwo's good tools such as forward air. I know this is something that applies to a lot of tall characters, but what's a good way to deal with Pikachu as Mewtwo? He's not impossible, but it's a very annoying match up, so any advice would be appreciated.

It'd be nice if we could get @MewSquared 's opinion on this, since he did just have the fight of his life against ESAM.

I've never really faced a good Pikachu player so I don't know what to say. Short characters are definitely annoying for Mewtwo, but thankfully we do have a top-tier Dtilt to pop them up in aerial range.

 

[Mr. B]

Yeah, its all about DTilt. A good Pikachu player will still give your thumbs a good workout, but you can break his flow by reflecting thundershock, and sometimes even thunder back at him too.

 

[meleebrawler]

Using usmash to counter Quick Attack can be helpful too.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

How does the Corrin matchup look for Mewtwo? Just wondering because I haven't seen much talk of matchups with corn flakes on the Kettle Corn boards.

 

[meleebrawler]

How does the Corrin matchup look for Mewtwo? Just wondering because I haven't seen much talk of matchups with corn flakes on the Kettle Corn boards.

Mewtwo has Corrin beat at long range, and can go toe-to-toe with him in his mid-range zone though he does have a slight edge in longer and faster normal. But Mewtwo shouldn't have much trouble retreating if he's put on the defensive against Corrin's slow mobility.

 

[Swoops]

How does the Corrin matchup look for Mewtwo? Just wondering because I haven't seen much talk of matchups with corn flakes on the Kettle Corn boards.

I think it's one of his worst/most annoying along with Cloud, possibly Ike/G&W/DK etc. Characters that can attack his dead zone well (right above and in front of him a ways) give him problems, especially if they can do good damage/knockback from that angle.

UTilt is a solid anti-air, but gains very little reward and can still trade with beefier things. FAir is fast and rewarding, but lacks range/disjoint against other options. NAir gets beat by anything with any sort of range. Shadow Ball requires set up and is generally slow to come out...etc etc. A lot of dealing with that dead spot comes down to patience, spacing with shadow ball, occasional FAir reads, and waiting until you find an opening to get in their face with NAir. I find SHAD UAirs very effective too, especially against Corrin if she messes up a SideB.

Coming back to Corrin, she has that angle covered with speed AND range/damage/knockback. Spear is really annoying to deal with. She can also perform ridiculously early kills with certain set ups. I labbed the match up for like 30 minutes and I found tons of dumb options, then set down my controller and cried.

It's not impossible by any means but it requires a good deal of patience, and then mastery of combos to get the most out of your opportunities when you find them.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think it's one of his worst/most annoying along with Cloud, possibly Ike/G&W/DK etc. Characters that can attack his dead zone well (right above and in front of him a ways) give him problems, especially if they can do good damage/knockback from that angle.

UTilt is a solid anti-air, but gains very little reward and can still trade with beefier things. FAir is fast and rewarding, but lacks range/disjoint against other options. NAir gets beat by anything with any sort of range. Shadow Ball requires set up and is generally slow to come out...etc etc. A lot of dealing with that dead spot comes down to patience, spacing with shadow ball, occasional FAir reads, and waiting until you find an opening to get in their face with NAir. I find SHAD UAirs very effective too, especially against Corrin if she messes up a SideB.

Coming back to Corrin, she has that angle covered with speed AND range/damage/knockback. Spear is really annoying to deal with. She can also perform ridiculously early kills with certain set ups. I labbed the match up for like 30 minutes and I found tons of dumb options, then set down my controller and cried.

It's not impossible by any means but it requires a good deal of patience, and then mastery of combos to get the most out of your opportunities when you find them.

The thing about the characters you mentioned is that they are not only good at short-hop approaches, but also have the mobility to breach Mewtwo's spacing (or in G&W's case, his ability to turn charged Shadow Ball into a big liability. His approaches aren't nearly as safe), or at least stay in that uncomfortable zone.

Corrin doesn't have any of that. She doesn't have the mobility to constantly pressure Mewtwo so he can always just retreat if he feels uncomfortable dealing with her approach, particularly since she doesn't have anything to threaten Mewtwo at a distance with. Charged Shadow Ball and Confusion shut down all of her long-ranged options. The spear also isn't as safe as it looks, respect it but it isn't too hard to punish on block or sometimes even on whiff.

You're right in that patience is necessary to beat Corrin at her spacing game, but Mewtwo has the luxury of not always having to play that game.

 

[Chiroz]

I've only fought 1 above decent Corrin and I think this matchup will be a pain. Spear seems to be extremely fast, as in "punish anything but D-Tilt" fast. It deals close to 20%+ and kills us slight above 80% (fresh). That's basically all she needs.

We will have to play outside the range of Side-B which means we can only SB. She definitely beats us at mid and close range with her faster attacks with a much better combo ability and higher damage output (in terms of combos). Plus needless to remind any of you but we will have to deal about twice as much damage as she does to us to kill her and all we have is mobility and Shadow Ball.

I won't exactly claim to be a master of the matchup, I only played against this Corrin twice, but that Spear punish was really breaking the MU. According to Kurogane it says it's frame 3-4, that's Falcon's jab level of speed on a kill move that deals 20% and has more range than our D-Tilt.



At least if you reflect a fully charged Neutral B after 50-60% it's a guaranteed kill anywhere on stage, but once Corrins catch up to this I don't think they'll ever use Neutral B against Mewtwo.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Watched some videos. Everybody's making a big deal out of the Spear when I could block it fairly consistently as Bowser.

Corrin needs to be in the air to use it, it seems - from the ground, Corrin hops into the air at a 45 degree angle and then executes the move. I don't know what a regular SH looks like for Corrin but if it looks different, then the Spear might not be as dangerous as everybody makes it out to be.

Edited for typos.

EDIT: More news. So Corrin can execute the move stupid fast in the air, but not from the ground. If she tries to execute it from the ground, she is held back by almost a full second of jumping into the air - the jump is noticeably different from his/her normal jump so take advantage.

Finally, some Corrin players note that, while Corrin CAN kill early, they have issues doing so unless they hit the tipper. One Corrin player noted that they have very bad VS Shield game, too. I don't know how that effects us.

 

[meleebrawler]

Watched some videos. Everybody's making a big deal out of the Spear when I could block it fairly consistently as Bowser.

Corrin needs to be in the air to use it, it seems - from the ground, Corrin hops into the air at a 45 degree angle and then executes the move. I don't know what a regular SH looks like for Corrin but if it looks different, then the Spear might not be as dangerous as everybody makes it out to be.

Edited for typos.

There's a tell-tale puddle of water and sound when Corrin uses a grounded Dragon Fang Lunge. It's only used for the quick pin (pressing very quickly after side b) or as a mixup.

If used in the air it cuts Corrin's momentum and has noticeable endlag. It's good as a punish or surprise but not a staple spacing move.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

There's a tell-tale puddle of water and sound when Corrin uses a grounded Dragon Fang Lunge. It's only used for the quick pin (pressing very quickly after side b) or as a mixup.

If used in the air it cuts Corrin's momentum and has noticeable endlag. It's good as a punish or surprise but not a staple spacing move.

Definitely noticed it when messing around as DK on For Glory. Read my new edit on my older post.

 

[Swoops]

No, it is absolutely a staple of her match up vs us. Granted frame data isn't fully out yet, the move is still frame 4-5 out of the special hop. Frame 10ish from mid air.

If Corrin does it instantly out of that hop, she will pin the ground. From what I can tell, you cannot OoS punish her when she pins, because the kick is really damn good and can be used while retreating to make her marginally safe (IF NOT COMPLETELY SAFE.) By the way, the kick is also a kill move, so it doesn't really matter if she gets the tipper in this case. Bottom line, she's only punishable if she isn't sticking it in the ground, and if you try to attack her before it comes out you risk eating FAir chains or immediate spear.

Ike and DK aren't characters with amazing mobility anyways. Their stats are solid at best. The problem is the threat they pose when they get in a certain range. I would argue the threat that Corrin poses in her optimal range is MUCH higher than that of DK/Ike, grab shenanigans withstanding.

So it comes down to making sure she doesn't close that gap, but she has very potent and damaging spacing tools that make your spacing tools very risky in a certain range. BAir is fantastic, safe, beats many of M2s options, and does good damage/kills. FAir is quick, beats many of M2s options, does good damage and combos into more FAirs and TIPPER SPEAR. (This is thing that works and kills Mewtwo center stage around 70 no rage). Spear we've talked about.

Not trying to be a Debbie downer, but we really need to be prepared for the matchup as more people develop this character.

EDIT: For reference, here are some vids of the match up, vs a top player in our scene. Keep in mind that this is essentially the very first time I was playing this match up, so I'll admit to doing a lot of incorrect things.

However, it's also the first time he was playing this match up, so take that as it is.

vs Corrin WSF/GFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tuW2_X124k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSbdmqNsatM

 

[Aninymouse]

Yeah, I do not have much optimism in the Corrin:Mewtwo match-up at all. It's still early, but knowing Mewtwo and what his speed/range is capable of, it looks like a 70:30 match-up to me; one of Mewtwo's absolute worst. You can't even stay in shield vs the lance poke, since shielding the poke, holding shield until they kick, and shielding the kick seems to do more than 50% shield or right around 50%. You can't do that twice back-to-back, and each time you shield the kick, Corrin is 100% safe and back in neutral.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

No, it is absolutely a staple of her match up vs us. Granted frame data isn't fully out yet, the move is still frame 4-5 out of the special hop. Frame 10ish from mid air.

If Corrin does it instantly out of that hop, she will pin the ground. From what I can tell, you cannot OoS punish her when she pins, because the kick is really damn good and can be used while retreating to make her marginally safe (IF NOT COMPLETELY SAFE.) By the way, the kick is also a kill move, so it doesn't really matter if she gets the tipper in this case. Bottom line, she's only punishable if she isn't sticking it in the ground, and if you try to attack her before it comes out you risk eating FAir chains or immediate spear.

Ike and DK aren't characters with amazing mobility anyways. Their stats are solid at best. The problem is the threat they pose when they get in a certain range. I would argue the threat that Corrin poses in her optimal range is MUCH higher than that of DK/Ike, grab shenanigans withstanding.

So it comes down to making sure she doesn't close that gap, but she has very potent and damaging spacing tools that make your spacing tools very risky in a certain range. BAir is fantastic, safe, beats many of M2s options, and does good damage/kills. FAir is quick, beats many of M2s options, does good damage and combos into more FAirs and TIPPER SPEAR. (This is thing that works and kills Mewtwo center stage around 70 no rage). Spear we've talked about.

Not trying to be a Debbie downer, but we really need to be prepared for the matchup as more people develop this character.

EDIT: For reference, here are some vids of the match up, vs a top player in our scene. Keep in mind that this is essentially the very first time I was playing this match up, so I'll admit to doing a lot of incorrect things.

However, it's also the first time he was playing this match up, so take that as it is.

Except it's not. A definite general consensus among Corrin players right now is that they have trouble approaching, especially when somebody can force them to approach, which we can do with Shadow Ball.

I was watching your first video, up to the end of the second round - I'm sorta busy so I can watch the whole thing later. What I did notice was that the Corrin player used Dragon Lunge 3-4 times across BOTH matches. Just seemed like you needed to be a lot more patient, because her aerials were more of a staple than Dragon Lunge. I would say much of your matches was unfamiliarity with the character, rather than the charactee overall, as I'm drawing much of my arguments from the Corrin boards themselves. Another thing they cite is slower mobility, which I'm sure could be taken advantage of, as well as some of the reported moved with "lots of end lag," though I'm not sure how true that claim is.

My point with DK wasn't who could KO better nor DK vs Corrin. DK and Bowser have huge frames - if I could consistently shield or even roll away with those two characters, I feel like Mewtwo wouldn't be too much if an offshoot, either.

EDIT: Reading more from the Children of the Corn boards, Corrin has only two moves that are consistently safe on shield and two more, if they are executed precisely. Lunge may be safe on shield for Mewtwo specifically but Corn pop players very rarely seem to mention it.

It may not be the right time to make any certain decisions. We will see as Cornucopia's meta develops.

 

[Swoops]

https://www.youtube.com/watbych?v=vhINQfFY-Bo

Another match up vid for reference. @MewSquared vs CosmicCosmos Corrin.

At a certain point we can't keep arguing unfamiliarity with the character because it's distracting. The whole point of what we're doing right now is to get familiar with the character, so I find that talking point kind of moot.

Maybe using the word "staple" was wrong for Dragon Lunge. I'll use the word "check." It is a hard check for us if the Corrin is using it properly. In the video above, it was quick enough to punish a whiffed dash grab after Corrin rolled away. It also confirmed into the kick for a kill at 90% (with rage.) It even whiff punished his DTilt. If Mewsquared had shielded or dashed away from the lunge, Cosmic would've still been safe. It's a very good move, and it's presence must keep us very very honest. Not saying that it doesn't have counters (SHAD UAir has worked wonders for me to confirm into higher damage), but we need to recognize we're dealing with a strong move.

I agree with you BarSoapSoup that myself and Mewsquared need to be more patient. It's how the match up is going to need to be played. But that point by itself doesn't really counter the argument that it's a bad matchup.

 

[Aninymouse]

Except it's not. A definite general consensus among Corrin players right now is that they have trouble approaching, especially when somebody can force them to approach, which we can do with Shadow Ball.

Those Corrin players must be kinda bad, because RAR Bair is a totally safe and powerful approach option unless you are far out of Bair's range... at which point they wouldn't be using Bair. At extreme long range we have Shadow Ball, sure, and we can reflect their water balls, but at that range your SB is likely to just get shielded. It's not really any advantage.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I agree with you BarSoapSoup that myself and Mewsquared need to be more patient. It's how the match up is going to need to be played. But that point by itself doesn't really counter the argument that it's a bad matchup.

Perhaps my Bowser play muddles my thoughts in things because we're all about shields and punishing with grabs. I'll take your word for it for now.

Those Corrin players must be kinda bad

B-Air and U-Air were listed as the two definite moves that are safe on shield, I think. I know B-Air for sure, but I might be confusing U-Air with N-Air. N-Air and F-Air require more precise timing. May be confusing "approach" with "VS Shield" - my Smash terminology is awful. For future reference, here is the forum I have seen regarding Corn Syrup's weaknesses

http://smashboards.com/threads/corrins-weaknesses.430500/

 

[Chiroz]

Watched some videos. Everybody's making a big deal out of the Spear when I could block it fairly consistently as Bowser.

Corrin needs to be in the air to use it, it seems - from the ground, Corrin hops into the air at a 45 degree angle and then executes the move. I don't know what a regular SH looks like for Corrin but if it looks different, then the Spear might not be as dangerous as everybody makes it out to be.

Edited for typos.

EDIT: More news. So Corrin can execute the move stupid fast in the air, but not from the ground. If she tries to execute it from the ground, she is held back by almost a full second of jumping into the air - the jump is noticeably different from his/her normal jump so take advantage.

Finally, some Corrin players note that, while Corrin CAN kill early, they have issues doing so unless they hit the tipper. One Corrin player noted that they have very bad VS Shield game, too. I don't know how that effects us.

I would recommend people to refrain from posting until they get more familiar with a char.


Corrin can instantly Spear from the ground for a 4-8 frames punish. A good Corrin could OoS punish everything but maybe your jab (as Bowser) once he understands that. It deals almost 20% and the kick kills super early.

It's also very safe since they can dash away almost instantly, although I still need to learn the timing to see if it's punisheable.

Saying the Spear isn't good is just people who aren't playing Corrin well yet. As I said I've only played 1 Corrin out of like 70 that actually used Side-B as a punish instead of randomly throwing it out in neutral like most Corrin players who have no idea what they are doing.