Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Jiggly]

I feel like we have the advantage for the sheik matchup. Her down throw to fair/Uair is unusable after a few percent on us, her fthrow to bouncing fish is impossible on all percents. We can also DI out of her Fsmash. We out prioritize all of her aerials. We have lots of combo breaking material, which is something unique against sheik. Puff I feel is a great momentum breaker, and can easily turn a match. We can also duck under needles, as long as they aren't airborne.

I feel this is 65-35 puff favor

 

[ZHMT]

I feel like we have the advantage for the sheik matchup. Her down throw to fair/Uair is unusable after a few percent on us, her fthrow to bouncing fish is impossible on all percents. We can also DI out of her Fsmash. We out prioritize all of her aerials. We have lots of combo breaking material, which is something unique against sheik. Puff I feel is a great momentum breaker, and can easily turn a match. We can also duck under needles, as long as they aren't airborne.

I feel this is 65-35 puff favor

Do you have a lot of experience against Sheiks? There is nooo way its 65-35 our favor, impossible. Its true that Sheik can't combo Puff well, but that's not how Sheik is supposed to play the matchup at all. She can't be touched if she turtles with fairs and our best bet is punishing the landing lag or guessing since trades favor us with her fair. Overall we can camp eachother out and she has needles we can avoid. Also uair and utiilt combo into rest very well but its difficult to land an utilt on her. The matchup is dependant on Sheiks mistakes and how we can punish them which is a bad thing for us.

Note: Her tilts are rest punishable on block because of their low shieldstun and shield push.

Also our throws have about the same damage output as hers since Sheiks pummel is terrible. 2 pummels and a throw from Puff is 16-17% and one dthrow or fthrow into two fairs from Sheik does about 16% as well.

Its difficult for Sheik to land a KO move on Puff too and she really can't gimp us either if were smart. Also we can gimp her with lingering hitboxes as she grabs the ledge with vanish easily. Ill post more about the matchup later.

 

[Jiggly]

Maybe the people I played didn't know the matchup well, but sheik tends to be my easier opponents. That matchup always seems easy, maybe I'm just going against sheik's without puff MU experience, as I have had lots of sheik experience (hard not to). maybe 65 is a bit much, but 60 is solid imo. But feel free to shed light where I am incorrect or missing stuff :D

 

[drakeirving]

http://smashboards.com/goto/post?id=17949542#post-17949542
I've fought many Sheiks that just weren't very good. I think it's easy to get this impression when they aren't being careful and keep using punishable moves.

[A while ago and also more recently] I was pretty consistently destroyed by a good one though. Sheik has incredible options that cover literally everything Jigglypuff has. One of the worst things is that Needles can't be eaten or caught, can have varying duration, comes out near instantly and is extremely hard to predict, unlike most other projectiles in the game. She can throw them right up to when you're in her face and so approaching close to ground is unsafe, while ducking them is nigh useless because they can act fast enough afterwards.

If they play smart and defensively, Jiggs is not only forced to approach, but forced to approach pretty much only from above, which is extremely predictable and punishable with good perfect/shield use. If you're outside grab range or are retreating you can eat a dash attack, which also beats/crosses(?) your aerials. Running grab to try and mix up from the shield use is beaten because of how slow Jiggs' run is and the inability to come in from the ground.

She can reach you almost anywhere in the air when following up from e.g. a grab [DI works after certain %?], and falls fast enough to miss and still come back or get into another position. Plus there's the omnipresent threat of bouncing fish, which can be predictable, but only if they overuse it. I died a good number of times just because I was concentrating more on how to space approaches and got clonked by a surprise fish [Mostly irrelevant for the matchup but worthy of mention].

I really just racked up damage by poking and getting lucky hits in, and only won once when they used a dair out of habit and I Rest punished. Sheik has a bit of trouble killing, but Jiggs arguably has more when all you have is Rest (which you don't want to pull out haphazardly) and nair/dair, which are both punished with good shield game (and down throw uair kills).

 

[JarOfPlasma]

I think this match-up is close to even, but is probably in Sheik's favor. I'm thinking 55-45, Sheik.

EDIT: Also, when is the thread updating?

 

[ZHMT]

I will be updating everything shortly, I'm super busy with work and stuff. Also, I was thinking 55-45 Sheik as well.

Sheiks fair, uair, bair, and nair all come out faster than any of Puffs aerials btw.

Sheiks throws to up airs doesn't combo at ko percents. Just DI the up air on hit in the same direction as its natural knockback. At mid to high percents, never air dodge vertical throws, just take the possible up air. Good Sheiks will mixup with vanishes and punish your air dodge killing you far earlier than any up air.

On the ground jab is good against Sheik as its our fastest move and we just need frame advantage in some way, not damage. Sheiks only grounded move that generally beats it outright is her own jab. Jabs can mixup well into a ftilt, grab, or more jabs. Also if Sheik jabs your shield and you see her continue the jab combo, you can jump out of shield and hold up, then weave into her for a free hit, including rest.

 

[Desu~]

Man I've fought against so many campy Sheik that I keep cringing about it.
I know Im bad and stuff, but I know for certain that Sheik is way capable of doing more than anything mentionned above.

For starters, Sheik's mobility is one of the many things that Jigglypuff can't stand in this itteration of smash. Her ability to switch from offense to defense is a transition that I feel that Puff players would have a hard time to deal with. Also Sheik is one of the few characters that can safely follow up to any attacks out of a throw at almost any %. Early tilt combos also makes Sheik be able to rack up quick damage when Jigglypuff's only true strings that are reliable are pound followed up by fair at early-mid %.

Once you get knocked in the air, I feel that Sheik won't even hesitate to pressure you and make sure you don't land back on the ground (from most Sheik I've fought). Her aerials have so little startup lag that even Jiggs nair would have a hard time to keep her away easily.

I guess I only speculate at this point, but the Bouncing fish is something that I find pretty frightening in her arsenal. I surely hope you guys saw that video that shows an in-depth view of Sheik's options, but im especially obsessed about Bouncing fish's capability of instantly going on the swift offensive and back to defensive once again.

It's super difficult because Sheik has so many options in any of her moveset, and Jigglypuff is in the end not necessarily able to keep up with her approaches. I believe it would be really naive to even think that Jigglypuff can thouroughly pressure a good Sheik.
I do remember however that Jigglypuff can crouch to things such as her ftilt and even grab. So Jigglypuff's forte would essentially be punishing a over-aggressive Sheik.

Of course, there still the possibility of punishing Sheik's smash attacks if they were to be hit on shield since they end up being the only attacks with enough end lag to throw out a bair or a string of aerials that can potentially take her out of stage, but underestimating her aerials would be a mistake since they hit at the same frames as Jigglypuff's fastest aerials, maybe even faster.

My MU would be 70-30 Sheik's favor.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Sheik is a ***** tbh.

Needle camping is easy, and while her grab combos may not have kill potential, they can definitely rack up damage easily. This makes it really easy for Sheik to put herself in a position where she has the percent lead for the majority of the match. Her aerials are annoying too, being quick and basically impossible to punish. Bair especially seems to have virtually no landing lag. Basically Jiggs has to perfectly space her aerials to avoid getting grabbed, and has to make sure she's not eating a Fair / Bair / Needles on the approach, which is a lot easier said than done.

60/40 Sheik, maybe even worse. We don't have **** in this MU tbh.

 

[Designs]

I rate this matchup a solid 60:40 favorably (possibly closer to 65:35).

I have fairly extensive experience fighting 6/10 - 7/10 skill ranking players who main Sheik. So far I have come out on top 9/10 times. Sheiks strengths just so happen to be shortcomings in this matchup. The standard u-tilt does not lead to the guaranteed F-airs as they have been accustomed to with heavier characters. Below are a list of situations and how to overcome them.

• Sheik begins match charging needles / spams needles. To counter, close with quick floats towards mid-field. Once you have this positioning, begin your low-to-ground float assault. Bring in close and anticipate the needles. Air Dodge into pound usually catches opponents off guard and sends them above with DI around an 85 degree angle or 110-ish without. Follow immediately with a cornering chase towards an edge. This is where you want them.

• Sheik catches you in an u-tilt. Smash DI into a quickly charged rollout to catch off guard. Anticipate tech from knock-back into a Short-Hop n-air. Quickly chase down with a slide attack, and either:
  • A.) Charge Rollout and go for gimp
  • B.) Continue slide attack 2-3 times until ledge. This is where anticipation and rest timing is important. Sheik should tech roll towards you after understanding your "predictability". Read them hard from the roll and rest or anticipate a second roll and charge a reversal f-Smash.

• Sheik has you off stage and is f-air combo stringing. This is the BEST possible position for you at this time. Anticipate the timing and DI forward + Air Dodge. Immediately after, Sheik will begin retreat towards stage. Depending on your positioning do the following.

• • A.) If facing towards stage, go for the B-air. This should kill regardless of percentages. If this feels unsafe to you, try following them back to stage and air-dodge their gimp attempt into a n-air. There is a chance for an easy stage spike.
  • B.) If facing opponent, poke with f-air. This should begin the death train combo. If you can be slightly under the opponent (20 degrees or less), this will carry them to the blast zones without sacrificing your jumps. DONT JUMP WHEN CHASING in this mode as your f-airs will connect better .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, this matchup's not fun because she controls the pace of the fight more than most characters. All that mobility...

Dash Attack is also a useful tool to keep in mind on the ground; it'll beat virtually all of her ground attacks and deal good damage/knockback, but it loses hard to her moving away from you via a jump or a dash backward. It starts hitting on Frame 5, which is the same as Jab1. Solid for catching shorthop aerials.

Getting outsped in terms of start-up and overall movement is really rough. Bigger, better hitboxes are infuriating. What do you recommend doing to reliably deal with Bouncing Fish, in terms of her recovery and her trying to edgeguard us?

My current understanding suggests 45-55 or 40-60, Sheik's favor. I tend to err on the side of cautiously pessimistic, though.

 

[Designs]

Yeah, this matchup's not fun because she controls the pace of the fight more than most characters. All that mobility...

Dash Attack is also a useful tool to keep in mind on the ground; it'll beat virtually all of her ground attacks and deal good damage/knockback, but it loses hard to her moving away from you via a jump or a dash backward. It starts hitting on Frame 5, which is the same as Jab1. Solid for catching shorthop aerials.

Getting outsped in terms of start-up and overall movement is really rough. Bigger, better hitboxes are infuriating. What do you recommend doing to reliably deal with Bouncing Fish, in terms of her recovery and her trying to edgeguard us?

My current understanding suggests 45-55 or 40-60, Sheik's favor. I tend to err on the side of cautiously pessimistic, though.

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself but it all comes down to your adaptability. I don't think we will ever see a Jiggs take a national but she can beat your average players using top tier fighters. Players use certain methods and tend to stick to them. If you find a Sheik using BF as a spacing tool then anticipate and punish with a roll -> jab - > b-throw. If BF is causing you trouble on the edge, air-dodge to n-air when given the opportunity. I can't guarantee you will beat this every time but by letting your opponent know you are on the the spam and punishing it, you diminish their options.

Then again perhaps you play nationally ranked players using different Meta than I am used to. The key I have had to victory is just being unorthodox in your approaches. Sheiks are aggro and yearn for hit connections. Deny them of this and let their impatience dull their effectiveness.

 

[Desu~]

But...

But what if I told you that...

Good Sheik players can also wait patiently for their hit confirms?

 

[ZHMT]

Sorry for the inactivity, I've been super busy. Anyway final words on Sheik? Ill update the original post if so.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My personal opinion is still 40-60; Sheik is so mean.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm gonna go 55-45 favor of puff

 

[drakeirving]

I'm still 40-60, given the lack of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Designs]

I'll have evidence at the next ReSe Regional in Charlotte. I am $500 MM a Shiek main On stream with Puff/Mega/Mario/Sonic.

 

[Designs]

FYI I've seen ReflexWonders Puff and we have striking similarities but I use rollout as a pressure move.

 

[Desu~]

No. Your Puff gameplay is not similar to Reflex. It's Reflex's Puff gameplay that gives you inspiration.

Also, I still feel like it's a 30-70 for Sheik if we are to say that she overwhelms Puff.

 

[drakeirving]

I'll be waiting, then. It isn't like I'm opposed to being shown wrong and that we've just been overlooking key points, in fact that'd be great. That being said, even if you win it doesn't really mean much unless you actually show something important for the matchup, rather than the other guy just being stuck and letting himself be punished.

I mean, I see Rollout used as followup pressure and use it myself sometimes, but Sheik has one of the easiest times stopping Rollout in the whole cast so I struggle to see how that would apply here (unless you just meant in general).

 

[ZHMT]

I'm gonna put it down as 6:4 Sheiks favor. Also Rollout and Sing are both terrible in almost every matchup. (Probably every matchup.)

The current best Sheik in Tampa who has placed top 8 at KiT and done well at Paragon and Apex also thinks its about 6-4, he actually leans to 55-45 but then I showed him the power of switching cstick to attack for retreating fairs.

Also yeah, Dash Attack is great because I don't think it clashes
. I read this somewhere from a reliable poster and he said its mentioned in the game code we have before the shield damage amount. I tested it and yeah, I don't think it clashes, although it still gets outprioritized by moves doing ~20% or more. This means we have a frame 5 ko move that beats almost anything and lasts a while so it beats spotdodges and rolls away some of the time. Destroys all of Sheiks grounded options of spaced around her jab.

Next matchup were gonna do is Rosalina & Luma. Ill update the original post when I get home.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is that Phuzix? I played him in friendlies more than anyone else at APEX 2015. Cool guy!

 

[Designs]

No. Your Puff gameplay is not similar to Reflex. It's Reflex's Puff gameplay that gives you inspiration.

Also, I still feel like it's a 30-70 for Sheik if we are to say that she overwhelms Puff.

.....ok. I am wondering what the age group on this thread is. Such negativity for counter arguments against early perceptions.

 

[Designs]

I'll be waiting, then. It isn't like I'm opposed to being shown wrong and that we've just been overlooking key points, in fact that'd be great. That being said, even if you win it doesn't really mean much unless you actually show something important for the matchup, rather than the other guy just being stuck and letting himself be punished.

I mean, I see Rollout used as followup pressure and use it myself sometimes, but Sheik has one of the easiest times stopping Rollout in the whole cast so I struggle to see how that would apply here (unless you just meant in general).

Hopefully I don't make a fool of myself and bomb it. I beat the guy previously in a 20$ MM 3-1 with Puff/WFT. This game takes a lot of 64 meta IMO which I think makes me stronger in it than say melee/PM.

 

[pikazz]

to sheik, I actually put 60/40- 70/30 Jigglypuff favor since in my matches, Sheiks been pretty easy to deal with by using jigglypuff at least for me!

 

[Jiggly]

to sheik, I actually put 60/40- 70/30 Jigglypuff favor since in my matches, Sheiks been pretty easy to deal with by using jigglypuff at least for me!

Same here, but maybe it's just unfamiliarity of the matchup on their part.

 

[ZHMT]

Is that Phuzix? I played him in friendlies more than anyone else at APEX 2015. Cool guy!

Is that Phuzix? I played him in friendlies more than anyone else at APEX 2015. Cool guy!

Yep, we go about even in our games. He also thinks the matchup is about 55/45 Sheiks favor. Usually in our games, he gets a decent lead early on but struggles to get the KO. In my experience with him, whoever got the first KO usually won because carrying rage benefits is pretty easy for both characters here.

Also yeah he's cool and fun to play with/talk to.

 

[Jiggly]

Is it time to move to the next character?

 

[LightningLuxray]

We're doing Rosalina & Luma atm. Seems the title just hasn't been updated.

 

[Jiggly]

I dont know, but i feel like this is an even matchup of sorts. Luma zonig is tough due to Jigglypuff mainly being in the air, plus pound launches luma up, and well as ducking an attack then using up tilt. Both are easy to just follow up with bair for the kill. What I have trouble with tho, is rosa's Uair, Dair, and uptilt. It seems thes moves are really good at juggling jigglypuff, and its really tough. At the moment I'm thinking an even match up, maybe rosa favor. It just comes down to how well the rosa can do without luma, or if they play defensive luma, which isn't all too common.

 

[ZHMT]

We're doing Rosalina & Luma atm. Seems the title just hasn't been updated.

Updated, and added Bowser to the first post. Yeah, its Rosa time. Unfortunately I'm not too familiar in this matchup so Ill be relying on most of you guys here. The matchup seems annoying but I could be wrong.

 

[Jiggly]

Updated, and added Bowser to the first post. Yeah, its Rosa time. Unfortunately I'm not too familiar in this matchup so Ill be relying on most of you guys here. The matchup seems annoying but I could be wrong.

It's annoying if the rosa knows the matchup and is defensive. Puff has some easy ways of disposing of luma, but defensive tactics can shred her. I need more practice with defensive rosas to really know the matchup well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've played this matchup a good bit. It's not fun, but that's mostly because Rosalina isn't a fun character to fight for anyone.

I think it's a slight disadvantage, and it'll likely get better as we get comfortable with her pokes. Her hitboxes are obnoxious and do a good job of defending in places we want to attack, but she's pretty slow about getting into range without going nuts with U-Smash, which is fairly risky for her. It's a matchup where we kind of get to call the shots, which is nice. The trouble is that she's allowed to move backward at virtually zero risk to herself, so the matchup is slow-going, but if you're patient, it's not so bad an issue.

Luma is annoying, but if you can avoid stray D-Air/U-Air hits, you shouldn't die at especially low percents, so it's mostly a matter of getting through the wall of hitboxes. Jab is annoying and safe for her but doesn't net her a whole lot. Rosalina being tall and light is quite useful for Jigglypuff; D-Air is great to land as it separates Rosalina from Luma, does good damage, and allows you to pressure afterward; just make sure to mix up your retreat if she shields it, since if she blocks all of it, that U-Smash is coming your way. She's probably the easiest character in the game to D-Air -> Rest combo, so keep that in mind.

If you can react to Rosalina's N-Air, your Forward-B, U-Air, Dash Attack, and even Down-B can work to bop it. Forward-B is great for hitting Luma, and Rosalina's lack of speed is often covered by excessive shielding; I've probably broken significantly more Rosalina shields than any other character as Jigglypuff. Watch for those opportunities.

Her recovery is fairly exploitable, especially on stages without platforms for her to retreat to; stay jumping near the edge, as you don't get a lot for chasing her far, and Rollout will actually help you punish if she decides to go up and around you. Her aerials are big and annoying, but she's not gonna N-Air while recovering, and U-Air/F-Air aren't difficult to airdodge/work around and punish.

Take your time in this matchup. I'll say 45-55, though maybe I'm just well-versed in a matchup that Rosalina players generally don't know well? Dunno.

 

[Desu~]

Im...
Trying to revive the thread here...

 

[Jiggly]

Im...
Trying to revive the thread here...

The reason it's dying is because no one else is giving input on the matchup

But I'm gonna stand with a 45-55 matchup rosa favor after having this matchup a lot with my friends. If customs are on and we can have horizontal pound custom, then puff has the 55-45 advantage, but the custom moves movement isn't quite fully accepted yet.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How does the horizontal Pound help the matchup? I haven't messed with her stuff much.

 

[Jiggly]

How does the horizontal Pound help the matchup? I haven't messed with her stuff much.

It turns luma into a golf all and makes her fly about half of Battlefield when it's HEALTHY. Horizontal pound makes it easier to leave Rosa open, which is good for puff, due to her being big and floaty making juggling and gimping easier.

 

[Desu~]

Since when are we even taking into consideration the custom moves?
I haven't heard of customs being used in official tournaments lately.

 

[Jiggly]

Since when are we even taking into consideration the custom moves?
I haven't heard of customs being used in official tournaments lately.

I'm pretty sure they were just confirmed for Evo. There is a big custom moves movement in the community atm. 3DS hacking makes it possible to get sets easy on wii u

 

[Macchiato]

Rosalina beats us because its hard to get in with her extra range, disjointed hitboxes, and strong kill power. We have to be very patient in this Match-up