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Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

B!squick

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Also Bowser bomb breaking Puffs shield isn't relevant in the matchup, let's not bring it up anymore xP

Bowser bomb only breaks it if both hits connect and since there's so little shield stun we can just drop shield after the first hit and eat the second. That is a backup if we already shield the telegraphed and easy to predict/react to move.
I think it's very relevant because Bowser can frame trap you into having to Shield. But if you want to take 20% everytime you get Jabbed, that's fine by me.

And FTilt is notoriously punishable since Melee days let alone now and especially against a character like Jigglypuff. Thus it's used sparingly If we're going to talk about things that aren't relevant I'd start there. :p

And don't think a whiffed Jab is something you can punish easily. Bowser's Jab carries with some backwards momentum, so he can just run away after every Jab if he wants.

Does this Bowser player have vids/a name? I can understand if he wants to be anonymous. I certainly would use an assumed name if footage of me playing existed and I'm probably not half bad at this game.

/humblebrag

EDIT:
Yeah because rest is going to kill Jigglypuff at 70, Sheik at 70, Mario at 70, and Bowser at 70 too. Where doe it say the percents listed in that are where moves kill normally? With DI and stage variance there's no way for anything to list one percent accurately. Also Bowser is KOd at 60 on average without rage or DI on the floor of the stage. If you want evidence, test it for yourself.
I... did. Are my posts hidden somehow? >.> 70% Sounds consistent if it takes 73% to kill Bowser of the top platform on Battlefield. If you doubt Thinkaman's data, take it up with him, lol. He has Bowser's aerial and grounded SideBs mixed up so it's possible. For now I'm going to err on the side of the guy who's results match up with mine.
 
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ZHMT

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I was using Bowsers ftilt to describe a point in spacing, not saying the move is good or not. Also I said Bowser Bomb breaking puffs shield isn't relevant, I didn't say anything else, nothing about him frame trapping puff and didn't even mention jab. I don't know where you're getting the basis to bring it up quoting what I said.

Edit: We don't know what formula was used to get said percent, it can't be the same for every character. Just test it for yourself.
 
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KlefkiHolder

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I have no clue how you got 73%.

I don't think anyone lives Rest w/o rage past 70% except DDD, Falcon, and Ganon (maybe on this one) from the stage of FD, let alone Battlefield's top platform
 

ZHMT

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I have no clue how you got 73%.

I don't think anyone lives Rest w/o rage past 70% except DDD, Falcon, and Ganon (maybe on this one) from the stage of FD, let alone Battlefield's top platform
It actually KOs a lot earlier than that, especially on FD. Battlefield adds about 5% needed to KO.
 

Kojii

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Oh, good to know then.

Just tested in training. 60% is the earliest.

I got 65% on BF, so... 5% it is
Guess that I remembered the % for the wrong stage then. Well well, the earlier, the better.
 

Salad Bowl

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KlefkiHolder

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If Mario dies at 50% then that lines up with the data if it is taken from post-hit % as Rest does 20%.

Also I think it is worth mentioning that Kongo is now Doubles only at Apex. It could change again, but we'll see.
 

Salad Bowl

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If Mario dies at 50% then that lines up with the data if it is taken from post-hit % as Rest does 20%.

Also I think it is worth mentioning that Kongo is now Doubles only at Apex. It could change again, but we'll see.
Ugh no I have to replace Kongo jungle all the times I put it in the OP
 

KlefkiHolder

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It's still a common stage to be legal, so I would leave it, but add in alternatives for Apex and all that
 

JarOfPlasma

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Personally, I think this match-up is about 60:40, Jiggs favor.

Of course, Bowser has his excellent options for spacing and amazing kill power. But the problem is he just can't recover.

He gets knocked off-stage by f-air walls and n-air trades with Whirling Fortress. This leads to Bowser dying at really early percents from being gimped.

Rest is also a big problem too. Jiggs has several options that lead into Rest that are augmented by Bowser's size and weight. Even though Bowser has above-average survivability, he still gets damage racked up on him if Jiggs starts even one combo. Bowser has to play especially careful to avoid Jiggs' powerful edgeguards or combos into Rest.
 
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ZHMT

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I'm pulling 60:40 Jiggs favor with this MU tbh
Yeah same, for reasons stated earlier on page 3.

Also on large or taller characters faiir combos into rest very reliably at a decent percent window.
 
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LightningLuxray

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I say 50/50. Like I said earlier, it seems to come down to whoever spaces better.
 
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ZHMT

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Btw regarding the KO percent data, it was confirmed that its based off the 3ds version which has larger blast zones and other mechanical changes. This is why the KO percents seem higher than they should be across the board. Even then in the 3ds version after vectoring was changed/removed rest KOd Bowser on FD at 66% or so, so idk.

Point is, you can't trust the KO percent data completely, its a ballpark number.
 

Desu~

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I don't get the banned thingy, but I just saw on the Zelda boards that he's taking a break due to family affairs.
Said he should be back in 1-2 months apparently.
 
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Desu~

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Who is good enough to control it except Salad bowl?


I dunno ZHMT seemed to be pretty good regarding the frame data of characters.
That's an asset that helps a lot while determinating the MU of Jiggs.
 
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Cenizas

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I don't get the banned thingy, but I just saw on the Zelda boards that he's taking a break due to family affairs.
Said he should be back in 1-2 months apparently.
He's fine, actually. Someone in his family was sick but wasn't as bad as they thought or it is was found early enough or something like that. BTW, he has a new account called Macchiato now because he forgot the password to SaladBowl. I use jiggs from time to time and I saw this so I thought I'd say something so you don't have to worry about it.
 

ZHMT

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Thanks Reflex. So any final points about Bowser before we move on?

I'm going to start with the most used and best placing characters from now on. Next character were gonna discuss is Diddy Kong.
 

ZHMT

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Alright, 6-4 it is. Let's move onto Diddy Kong. I have a lot to say about the matchup and will post about it tonight. I'm interested in what other have to say too though, so post away and Ill give my input later.
 

Jiggly

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I feel like this is one of our worst matchups, which is funny due to how jigglypuff was a hard diddy counter in brawl. I just feel like his fair out spaces use too well, and his grab game kills us early if they get the DI mixup correct. We don't really have to worry about his naner too much, but I feel like diddy's aerials along with his good recovery prove a difficult matchup. I would say 35-65 honestly.
 

Desu~

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But can't we make the banana game turn against Diddy?
I feel that Jigglypuff's item control is a great asset that not everyone can have in this game.
Even if the number has been reduced to only one banana peel.
 

ZHMT

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A campy Diddy that knows how to properly shoot peanuts can be a pain. I played one of Floridas best Diddys at a tournament yesterday and peanuts are really annoying if you aren't aggressive enough. His fair is great against us in the air because the hitbox size is so large. Also his fair, bair, and uair autocancel early, earlier than our aerials. I can safely say that his fair beats out all of our aerials really and come out frame 6 which is the same frame as our nair. Luckily its not terribly strong.

If he is holding a banana, his options become potentially better but also more predictable. He cant use tilts, smashes, aerials, or grab normally (might be mistaken here, I do recall hearing about a way to use tilts when holding items). When hes holding a banana I like to stay in the air and try to safely poke at his shield or cross him up. You can also try to bait him to throw the banana and punish by taking it away or hitting him. Note he can side B while he holds a banana meaning he can still grab you with his command grab. His down tilt is also good against Jigglypuff and eventually combos into fair and possibly uair if your DI is poor.

Well, we went over the bad, lets talk about some of the good. Diddys dthrow to up air does work on Puff, however its fairly difficult to kill with the up air if you DI properly. Diddys down throw sends you at a 105 degree angle, which is behind Diddy. If you DI directly behind him, he can't get an up air on you when you're at kill percent. Its mainly because Diddy has to move horizontally to hit you which makes it take longer to reach where you are. This may not be true with rage being in effect as I haven't tried all the possibilities. I do know that its far more difficult to uair you and they generally start going for fairs instead which kill a lot later.

If a Diddy Kong uses side B to recover a lot, a well timed nair can beat both the grab and attacking option. Bair works too but its a lot harder to execute. Offstage its pretty easy to gimp Diddy if he is under the stage. Dropping with a nair is usually enough to KO him if he is forced to use his Up B. If he charges it a lot, just drop with nair, fast fall it, and use your remaining jumps to recover.

Kongo Jungle is likely going to be banned, and is banned at Apex in singles last I checked. Oh well, kinda sucks, we lost our best stage. I personally like Battlefield against Diddy Kong because the ceilings height makes it even harder for him to dthrow to up air you when lethal. The platforms are good for Diddy if he wants to stand under them and fire peanuts, however they also aid our juggling a lot because his dair is slow and his options are poor on platforms. Lylat can mess with Diddys recovery and the stage tilting doesn't mess with us much at all. Castle Siege isn't too bad and Delfino seems alright if you avoid the pillar transformation, I personally don't recommend Delfino, but I don't have much experience against Diddy on it, so I may be wrong there.

For bans, you have to absolutely ban Halberd. Remember how I brought up using DI to avoid dthrow up air kills? Well that goes out the window on Halberd and you are KO'd at ~60 before the down throw if uair is fresh (btw this is with zero rage so yeah, gg). We can't have this and this stage is an auto ban in my opinion. The only good news is that we don't have to worry too much about pocket Diddys and whatnot going to Halberd because we are usually banning it anyway. If the tournament allows two bans, Town and City is also pretty much an auto ban for similar reasons. The matchup on Halberd is probably 75-35, I'm serious.

I believe the matchup overall is 6-4 in favor of Diddy Kong. It's definitely winnable through gimps and a lot of his combos don't work very well on Puff if you DI properly. I think the matchup should be taken slowly and patiently. We need to be reactive on Diddy Kong a lot of the time, the better you are at baiting, the more doable the matchup will become, it's a staple for Puff but matters more so against this monkey.
 

Desu~

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Pretty much anything that has a big ceiling really.

Only stage that I remember having a particularly big ceiling would be Omega variant of Kalos League, but because there is no way of gimping people from below stage it would actually come to a disadvantage right?
 

ZHMT

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All of the Omegas have the same ceiling height last I checked. Also Omega Lylat isn't too bad because the ledge has a smaller sweetspot.
 

Psymon

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As far as Diddy is concerned, you can easily gimp his up-B by fast-falling a nair into him. The barrels fly off, and you look like a hero. Just make sure you get the timing right, a lot off Diddy mains wait until the last second to get a more powerful charge to the recovery, so try to read when they will initiate the boost.
 

JarOfPlasma

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Gimping is definitely the edge that Jiggs has on Diddy.

Of course, Diddy kills Jiggs early too, simply because he's Diddy. A lot of kill options, and most of them are really fast.

Something I figured out today is that Jiggs has a guaranteed escape from D-throw > U-air at like 40% beyond if you DI properly.

I think this match-up is either 60-40 Diddy, or 65-35 Diddy. Jiggs really does have a hard time getting in and keeping Diddy out.
 

ZHMT

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Over time I think the matchup will get easier for Puff by the way. Right now it seems harder than it will be in a year or so because a lot of Diddys stuff is avoidable and we may not know exactly how to do it. Plus a lot of the punish windows like Diddys fair autocancelled will be more in tune with our muscle memory and although that's true for both sides of the matchup, its a lot more true for Puff. Puff has more unpunishable moves if done properly after a shorthop.

I'm still thinking 6-4 Diddys favor. Any other things before we move on? Everyone agree on the counterpicks and bans?

Next we do Sheik.

Also I'm gonna update the original post every 2 characters done.
 
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