Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[ZHMT]

Oh okay, well I don't know what percent Puff is KOd at off the top of my head. Luigi can't really use Up B out of shield reliably to punish because of his traction, mix in Puffs good aerial range and air speed and you really can't punish them much at all.

Also Rest and Super Jump Punch is a very small part of the matchup imo. Rage also effects both moves differently, Rage almost always favors stronger moves as a whole, not just vs specific characters.

 

[Salad Bowl]

But his Up B won't hit probably cuz jigglypuff is in the air most the time and it makes the Up B is pretty much nonexistant. for rest, all jiggs needs is a whiffed tornado or super punch or just a smash at the wrong time.

 

[TriTails]

65/35 in Luigi's favor IMO.

Jiggly prefers to stay in the air.... well, that is a big problem for her.

Thing is, Luigi is also quite floaty, and he can spam 3 aerials outta one full hop. He is better than Mario in this MU because Mario's aerials and not-floaty attitude prevents him from fighting Jiggly in the air. Luigi can put up a fight in the air while Mario can't. His aerial mobility isn't an issue due to Jiggly will always aim for him when he is in the air. Plus, get caught in that Cyclone and you'll hate it big time.

Why Luigi wins this matchup because his recovery is HARD to gimp, and it travels great distance when pulled off properly. Plus, his ground combat is just as great as Mario. Jiggly prefers to stay in the air, Luigi Cyclone cannot be dodged as easily there, too. The only way to actually punish the Cyclone is with shielding, but you cannot shield in the air, and it's completely unreasonable to stay grounded just to block the Cyclone.

His Fireballs float, which can makes it a bit hard for Jiggly. Luigi Cyclone is an important thing to mind, as it can fight Jiggly's aerials. Plus, his B-air is a smash atttack in the air, and it hits HARD.

Luigi doesn't need his SJP other than recovering here, as Jiggly will stay in the air for most part. However, if Jiggly messes up her Rest..... well, get ready for a 'PWAAAANG!'. Although for most part, he will use his U-smash, and that move is crazy fast.

Oh, and you cannot crouch below the Cyclone I think. He sweeps the ground, and Cyclone's ground mobility is pretty absurd.

So yeah, I don't think Jiggly wins this MU, as Luigi himself is an aerial fighter as well. Plus, I think his aerials outranges Jiggly's.

So yeah, I'd say 65/35 in Luigi's favor, or 60/40 if you want.

 

[Salad Bowl]

65/35 in Luigi's favor IMO.

Jiggly prefers to stay in the air.... well, that is a big problem for her.

Thing is, Luigi is also quite floaty, and he can spam 3 aerials outta one full hop. He is better than Mario in this MU because Mario's aerials and not-floaty attitude prevents him from fighting Jiggly in the air. Luigi can put up a fight in the air while Mario can't. His aerial mobility isn't an issue due to Jiggly will always aim for him when he is in the air. Plus, get caught in that Cyclone and you'll hate it big time.

Why Luigi wins this matchup because his recovery is HARD to gimp, and it travels great distance when pulled off properly. Plus, his ground combat is just as great as Mario. Jiggly prefers to stay in the air, Luigi Cyclone cannot be dodged as easily there, too. The only way to actually punish the Cyclone is with shielding, but you cannot shield in the air, and it's completely unreasonable to stay grounded just to block the Cyclone.

His Fireballs float, which can makes it a bit hard for Jiggly. Luigi Cyclone is an important thing to mind, as it can fight Jiggly's aerials. Plus, his B-air is a smash atttack in the air, and it hits HARD.

Luigi doesn't need his SJP other than recovering here, as Jiggly will stay in the air for most part. However, if Jiggly messes up her Rest..... well, get ready for a 'PWAAAANG!'. Although for most part, he will use his U-smash, and that move is crazy fast.

Oh, and you cannot crouch below the Cyclone I think. He sweeps the ground, and Cyclone's ground mobility is pretty absurd.

So yeah, I don't think Jiggly wins this MU, as Luigi himself is an aerial fighter as well. Plus, I think his aerials outranges Jiggly's.

So yeah, I'd say 65/35 in Luigi's favor, or 60/40 if you want.

Actually I disagree, luigis recovery is really easy to gimp. All your need is to get rid of his jump and he's doomed. Jiggs nair ourprioritizes the tornado and the SJP doesn't go far Horizontally. He's easier to gimp than mario honestly. In the air jiggs has more range and priority and mobility. On the ground marios air game is better than luigis so I'd say the MU is 60:40 favoring jiggs.

 

[TriTails]

N-air out-prioritizes Cyclone? I think I'll look for it more. You sure about it?

Oh, and you are underestimating Luigi here. SJP is allabout grabbing the ledge, and all horizontal needs are covered by Luigi Cyclone and Green Missile. Mario is easier to gimp as a solid hit, and he is dead off-stage. Luigi, he can mix up his options. He can go high or low if he want to.

And... what? Mario's air game is better than Luigi? Ground game is better than Luigi? Er.... what?

I'll try to check Jiggly out. But I doubt if she ultimately wins in the air, as Luigi's aerials are crazy as well.

But I doubt if this MU in Jiggly's favor, but I'll look to it anyway!

 

[Salad Bowl]

N-air out-prioritizes Cyclone? I think I'll look for it more. You sure about it?

Oh, and you are underestimating Luigi here. SJP is allabout grabbing the ledge, and all horizontal needs are covered by Luigi Cyclone and Green Missile. Mario is easier to gimp as a solid hit, and he is dead off-stage. Luigi, he can mix up his options. He can go high or low if he want to.

And... what? Mario's air game is better than Luigi? Ground game is better than Luigi? Er.... what?

I'll try to check Jiggly out. But I doubt if she ultimately wins in the air, as Luigi's aerials are crazy as well.

But I doubt if this MU in Jiggly's favor, but I'll look to it anyway!

Actually it's probably even. Luigi does have a good air game but jiggs is better. For luigi, all you really need to do is get ride of his jump then fair or Bair him. Ur statements were mostly true so after this I think it's even.

 

[Desu~]

Actually I disagree, luigis recovery is really easy to gimp. All your need is to get rid of his jump and he's doomed. Jiggs nair ourprioritizes the tornado and the SJP doesn't go far Horizontally.

^^^^^^
So much of this.
While Luigi does seem similar to mario ground-wise, getting a nair to cancel out his double jump cyclone momentum means gg for the stock.

 

[TriTails]

Jiggs' air game surpass everyone lol.

So I guess I'll just have to Cyclone up high?

Not sure on how effective N-air is. As his SJP has invunerability, and sometimes, he only needs his double jump + SJP below the ledge. Yeah, I know that double jump is gimpable, but still, I don't think it's that simple. If Luigi was easy to gimp, then Mario would even be easier, too.

Plus, you are not gonna get him off-stage so easily. His combat game is to be reckoned with, and his Cyclone is harder to avoid in the air. Not to mention he has lots of kill moves. But yeah, roughly even I think.

 

[Klaxon]

I read that you can mash rest during his cyclone (but I've never tried it myself.) Wouldn't this significantly help the matchup because of how powerful of an option the cyclone usually is?

 

[Salad Bowl]

Jiggs' air game surpass everyone lol

Actually yes lol.
If it wasn't so good they wouldn't have give her...
Horrible ground mobility
Horrible shield break
Below average ground game
Worse ground range

also marios recovery is better because his SJP is a lingering hitbox throughout the whole recovery

 

[TriTails]

I read that you can mash rest during his cyclone (but I've never tried it myself.) Wouldn't this significantly help the matchup because of how powerful of an option the cyclone usually is?

I do believe Luigi Cyclone has hitstun and it frametrap (Frametrap is like unescapable combos, am I right?). I doubt if you can.

also marios recovery is better because his SJP is a lingering hitbox throughout the whole recovery

Yet he can be edgeguarded easily by landing a solid hit. His recovery is predictable as well. Luigi's SJP is meant to grab the ledge directly underneath it, and it has invincibility to make up for the lack of hitbox. Plus, Luigi Cyclone basically can be counted as his Up-b, as it actually rises higher than SJP. So yeah, Luigi's recovery isn't about only Up-b, but Side-b + Down-b + Up-b. Yeah, it IS complicated.

Why his recovery is so complicated in a game where everybody's recovery are simplified is beyond me. I can tell you this though, Luigi's recovery is better than Mario, it's just harder to pull off.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I do believe Luigi Cyclone has hitstun and it frametrap (Frametrap is like unescapable combos, am I right?). I doubt if you can.


Yet he can be edgeguarded easily by landing a solid hit. His recovery is predictable as well. Luigi's SJP is meant to grab the ledge directly underneath it, and it has invincibility to make up for the lack of hitbox. Plus, Luigi Cyclone basically can be counted as his Up-b, as it actually rises higher than SJP. So yeah, Luigi's recovery isn't about only Up-b, but Side-b + Down-b + Up-b. Yeah, it IS complicated.

Why his recovery is so complicated in a game where everybody's recovery are simplified is beyond me. I can tell you this though, Luigi's recovery is better than Mario, it's just harder to pull off.

Yes but jiggs can still gimp. Luigi can kill faster and has a better ground game while jiggs can gimp him and has a better air game. Overall i think its 50:50

 

[TriTails]

Not to mention Jiggs is the floatiest and lightest, so Luigi can kill her quite easily.

Yeah, Luigi can kill faster and has better ground game, plus combos, while Jiggs can gimp him and has better air game, along with better aerial mobility.

50/50 it is then.

 

[ZHMT]

The matchup is not even though (as of now anyway), there is no way guys.

 

[Desu~]

Indeed.
We've done nothing but over-simplifying the MU at this point.

TriTails, you should know - as a Luigi player - for a fact that once Luigi's double jump has been intercepted, he is totally done.
We do know that Luigi has the ability to use side b for horizontal recovery, that his momentum on double jump mixed with cyclone brings him further back on stage, but a smart player in general would never let an easy cyclone recovery go untouched like that. So once this interception is done, his only reliable move at that point would be his SJP. However, if too far from the ledge, it becomes in the end not worth trying.

Other than his recovery, I do admit that his ground game would be on par with Mario's ground game, since they share similar movesets.

Luigi does have an advantage in some way against Jiggs, just like Mario. However, his off-stage options are what hurts Luigi the most, and is the reason why Jiggs MU is easier in this.

 

[Salad Bowl]

The MU is probably in Jiggs favor because the fact that hes easily gimped would make it even but his ground game is worse than marios making jiggs have a small advantage over luigi so i think its 55:45 favoring jiggs.

 

[TriTails]

He isn't going to let you guys gimp him eso easily. Luigi Cyclone rise fast and high, and this can be taken advantage of.

First, recovering up high. I know that Jiggly can chase opponents quite quickly in the air. However, can she chase her opponents vertically as fast as she can do horizontally?

As a multi-jumper, I doubt it.

Thing is, unlike Mario, Luigi can mix up his recovery. He can recover very high, or very low if he want to. I think this comes in factor if Jiggly can reach Luigi first.

He can immediately use Luigi Cyclone the moment he recovers from the hitstun, which I'd say even Jiggly cannot intercept it.

Or.... he can recover ridiculiously low, and save himself with a Jump Punch. That works too.

But yes, I agree on how Luigi can be gimped easily by Jiggly. Can't deny that.

However, MU isn't about gimping only.

Luigi is scary onstage, he will most likely blow Jiggly off-stage before she can do the same. Luigi isn't bright off-stage, I must admit. However, his combos are arguably scary, and his ground game is no slouch.

Plus..... MU are determined by players in equal skill levels..... right?

You said smart players will not let Cyclone recovery untouched..... well, smart Luigi players will not let their glass recovery getting gimped, too. He has options off-stage, which led me into believing he does better than Mario.

Although, I don't play Jiggs, so yeah. I guess you guys are right.

But I'll look into it when I have the chance.

 

[Salad Bowl]

First, recovering up high. I know that Jiggly can chase opponents quite quickly in the air. However, can she chase her opponents vertically as fast as she can do horizontally?
As a multi-jumper, I doubt it.

actually she can lol

 

[Desu~]

MU aren't usually determined by players in equal skill as you said, but more about what a certain character can do well against this other certain character. It all comes down to the movesets potential and how it can be used in order to get the better of the opponent.
I am well aware that Luigi is considered a threat onstage. But in the end, every other character can pose a threat of some sort depending on the way they are played.
Also, it's not that MUs have always been about how to gimp a character, it's just that on Luigi's case, his recovery options are not as simple as you percieve it. It's a great mistake to say that Luigi's has a wide variety of recovery options. Unless you get lauched by a smash attack, you either end up at ground level towards the stage or try to go from beneath. If you get careless on your cyclone recovery, Jigglypuff - who's already got great reach off-stage - will punish for that, and it's nair is enough for that.

I'm not saying that his means to recover are bad, but to depend on this kind of thing usually ends up with bad habit. And this game doesn't necessarily forgive bad habits.

Now... if I were to go to my Sing-obsessed persona, I would say that by any means, Sing cancels out Luigi's cyclone and therefore shuts down this kind of approach. Case closed.

 

[TriTails]

All right.

What is your ratio?

 

[ZHMT]

Noo guys, dont say the S word, please (sing), it hurts my head. But yeah, it shouldn't be a part of any matchup because its really bad. Also Luigi in the air using cyclone cant even get hit by Sing since it only hits grounded characters.

I still say its 60-40 Puffs favor by the way. I gave my reasoning above. Also Puffs nair does beat out cyclone if done right and you can hold a direction and if they dont follow the DI she pops out and wont be ko'd, its a 50/50 guess.

 

[Desu~]

I, for one, welcome our new singing overlord.

 

[TriTails]

Just fought a Jiggly:
- N-air cancels out Luigi Cyclone, can confirm
- Jiggly dying ridiculiously early, can confirm.

The thing is, Luigi Cyclone may broke by N-air, however, it is Luigi's main weapon on countering Jiggly's aerials. Plus, I doubt Jiggly will use it all the time, that would be unreasonable.

Plus, Jiggly dying ridiculiously early doesn't help her, AT ALL. She was KOed by Luigi Cyclone that floats just above the round at 120%.

Plus, she isn't getting Luigi off-stage without getting 50-60% shoved down her throat first, by some grabs. Luigi's combos don't work like usual, but it still HURTS.

Plus, I managed to recover, and out of like, 14 times I get off-stage for 2 matches, she only manages to broke one Cyclone. I think recovering high solves this problem.

I'm still confused here...... Can Jiggly edgeguard Luigi as easy as Mario? Luigi can recover high, or VERY low to avoid that N-air. Or use the Cyclone early, I think those works.

 

[LightningLuxray]

120% really isn't that early of a kill percent, especially for Jigglypuff.

Mario and Luigi seem equally as easy to edgeguard tbh.

I agree with 60 / 40 in Jiggs favor for the reasons previously stated.

 

[TriTails]

It's Luigi Cyclone. For most characters, you have to get their percentage to absurd 210% to kill them off on the ground. And since Luigi Cyclone is Luigi's weapon against Jiggly, it can be a big trouble for her.

I still think Luigi is harder to edgeguard. Mario cannot spam his Cape, or he will not move foward. Luigi has more mixups and defenses than Mario. Don't forget that flying Fireball!

And also, I'm leaning towards 55/45 in Jiggs favor. If Mario's MU is that, then I don't see on how Luigi is worse. His aerial mobility isn't much of a problem due to his lighting-fast aerials. Plus, Luigi Cyclone is pretty vital here, where Mario does not have such a thing (No, not counting the D-air. It's far too short). Luigi also has better air game and grab game, so I don't see any advantage Mario has other than mobility. Not saying Luigi's mobility isn't a problem, but still....

 

[LordTakeo]

It's Luigi Cyclone. For most characters, you have to get their percentage to absurd 210% to kill them off on the ground. And since Luigi Cyclone is Luigi's weapon against Jiggly, it can be a big trouble for her.

I still think Luigi is harder to edgeguard. Mario cannot spam his Cape, or he will not move foward. Luigi has more mixups and defenses than Mario. Don't forget that flying Fireball!

And also, I'm leaning towards 55/45 in Jiggs favor. If Mario's MU is that, then I don't see on how Luigi is worse. His aerial mobility isn't much of a problem due to his lighting-fast aerials. Plus, Luigi Cyclone is pretty vital here, where Mario does not have such a thing (No, not counting the D-air. It's far too short). Luigi also has better air game and grab game, so I don't see any advantage Mario has other than mobility. Not saying Luigi's mobility isn't a problem, but still....

This. I agree on 55/45 in jiggs favor, since... it may be "minor" advantages over Mario, but they ARE advantages.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I, for one, welcome our new singing overlord.

^^^ this
Sing is buffed enough to be useful now and a lot of people won't expect it. I use it now and it's a good move now imo. Don't underestimate it or you'll get rest to the face.

 

[TriTails]

'Kay, lets make those minor advantages count.

53/47 Jiggs favor? Or.... 52/48? Or just 55/45?

Mario seem to struggle more than Luigi with Jiggs. So I think 53/47 seem reasonable. It's just unfair when you clearly has some advantages than a guy but you get same credits as him.

Can you all, Jiggs mains, agree on 53/47 in Jiggs favor? Or if you REALLY want to push it, 54/46?

Now I'm sounding like a stubborn shopkeeper.

 

[Salad Bowl]

'Kay, lets make those minor advantages count.

53/47 Jiggs favor? Or.... 52/48? Or just 55/45?

Mario seem to struggle more than Luigi with Jiggs. So I think 53/47 seem reasonable. It's just unfair when you clearly has some advantages than a guy but you get same credits as him.

Can you all, Jiggs mains, agree on 53/47 in Jiggs favor? Or if you REALLY want to push it, 54/46?

Now I'm sounding like a stubborn shopkeeper.

Well just do 55:45. I'm gonna keep scores counting by 5s

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

According to the OP, Jigglypuff has a 45/55 MU with Mario in Mario's favor. Are the differences in Luigi really pushing Jigglypuff to have a better MU against him?

Idk. I believe Luigi has a better air game than Mario plus the Cyclone which heavily challenges Jiggly. I agree that Luigi can be gimped easily but I still don't think it's THAT easy. I haven't played many Jigglypuffs and definitely haven't been threatened offstage so my view can be biased. But I haven't seen anyone challenge my rising Cyclone yet. If anything, they punish the lag after.

Also, Jigglypuff staying aerial vs floating fireballs and an invincible head during Usmash is a serious problem for Jigglypuff with hey light weight.

 

[Salad Bowl]

According to the OP, Jigglypuff has a 45/55 MU with Mario in Mario's favor. Are the differences in Luigi really pushing Jigglypuff to have a better MU against him?

Idk. I believe Luigi has a better air game than Mario plus the Cyclone which heavily challenges Jiggly. I agree that Luigi can be gimped easily but I still don't think it's THAT easy. I haven't played many Jigglypuffs and definitely haven't been threatened offstage so my view can be biased. But I haven't seen anyone challenge my rising Cyclone yet. If anything, they punish the lag after.

Also, Jigglypuff staying aerial vs floating fireballs and an invincible head during Usmash is a serious problem for Jigglypuff with hey light weight.

The changes really do matter. Luigi does have a better air game than mario but jiggs outclasses him. Also luigi having less kill power and a worse ground game does make it easier for jiggs because that's his main weakness and mario is better at covering that. Nair clanks with the tornado so it isn't that big in the MU. Her Nair is litarally one of the most prioritized moves. Luigi does have a better recovery but it's easier to gimp.

 

[ZHMT]

Not to say this is fully practical at this point in the games life cycle but Puffs bair is disjointed a bit at the end and on the bottom of the animation. This will beat cyclone and we won't take damage. Even trading is good for us though unless its the last hit. Her Fair has a bit of disjoint too but its harder with fair.

Puffs up air has a ton of disjoint and beats out Luigis dair from above if timed properly. Also people seem to be forgetting that Luigis traction is one of the big things that make this matchup good for Puff. You can hit Luigis shield with an aerial and its safe, even if misspaced a bit. If you did the exact same aerial in the same situation vs Mario you will get up smashed out of shield or Up B'd.

The matchup isn't that close really, Puff has a decent advantage.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Not saying I disagree but for my knowledge, can you further explain what gives Mario an advantage in the MU but Luigi a disadvantage? Right now it seems like Nair cancelling Cyclone is the only thing setting it apart.

And I disagree about Luigi having less kill power than Mario. Fsmash is probably the only thing Mario has over Luigi when it comes to kill power.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Not saying I disagree but for my knowledge, can you further explain what gives Mario an advantage in the MU but Luigi a disadvantage? Right now it seems like Nair cancelling Cyclone is the only thing setting it apart.

And I disagree about Luigi having less kill power than Mario. Fsmash is probably the only thing Mario has over Luigi when it comes to kill power.

Mario Usmash kills faster and his fsmash. Marios ground game and mobility is better which is actually big. Marios dair kills crazy early. His recovery is harder to gimp since his recovery is a lingering hitbox. Luigis isn't and we can stop the tornado and luigi has more lag than jiggs.

 

[ZHMT]

Not saying I disagree but for my knowledge, can you further explain what gives Mario an advantage in the MU but Luigi a disadvantage? Right now it seems like Nair cancelling Cyclone is the only thing setting it apart.

And I disagree about Luigi having less kill power than Mario. Fsmash is probably the only thing Mario has over Luigi when it comes to kill power.

Mario doesn't slide across the freaking stage when you hit his shield with an aerial. Are you reading my posts?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I always seem to overlook the fact that Luigi slides. This is a MU I'm pretty unfamiliar with and just going off of each characters strengths and weaknesses. I know Luigi has low traction but I wasn't sure if there was enough pushback from Jigglypuff to make a big difference.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I always seem to overlook the fact that Luigi slides. This is a MU I'm pretty unfamiliar with and just going off of each characters strengths and weaknesses. I know Luigi has low traction but I wasn't sure if there was enough pushback from Jigglypuff to make a big difference.

A jigglypuffs bair sends him far and he can't really punish her oos and the fact that her aerials are safe on shield don't help.

 

[Desu~]

Woah wait though.

I don't really agree on the less kill power part.
As far as I remember, Luigi's nair should be something that you don't want to clash in.
...based from what I saw in past games.
To tell the truth, I did not have the opportunity to go head-to-head with a Luigi in smash 4. So I don't know what became of his nair.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Dthrow->Nair is a kill move around 120-130% so there's that

 

[Salad Bowl]

Dthrow->Nair is a kill move around 120-130% so there's that

Jiggly shouldn't be living that long and it might not even work because she's anticombo and her floatiness and weight help her escape combos easily. I also tested and Marios Usmash kills faster than luigis.