Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[TriTails]

Whoa whoa whoa!

Tell me, Mario's smashes kills earlier?

It's probably just about 10% difference. Plus, Luigi's D-smash IS A KILL MOVE.

And you guys forgot Luigi is one of the best comboer in the game. You get grabbed and for Jiggs' case, 15% guaranteed. D-throw + F-air is a true combo, and he can also mix Luigi Cyclone in.

You say 120% is a percentage where Jiggly shouldn't live that long.

Well, you are not going to get Luigi off-stage before he feed you 50-60% outta some grabs. No, no matter who you are, D-throw + F-air/Luigi Cyclone IS A TRUE COMBO.

It doesn't matter if Mario's smashes kill earlier. If he cannot rack up damage (I assume U-tilts won't work?), then those smashes won't kill. Plus......

Luigi has better air game and grab game than Mario. And his ground combat is just about on par. His traction may be bad, but that's a thing to work out with.

Plus, Luigi will most likely battle Jiggly in the air. Even though Jiggly has better air game, Luigi's is not to be underestimated. Mario's worse because he cannot jump as high or fall as slow, and his F-air is SLOW!

No. I get what you guys are thinking. You are going to cancel out Cyclone with Jiggs' aerials right?

I can tell you all this, IT WON'T BE ALWAYS THE CASE.

Nope, Luigi is far more unpredictable than Mario. He WILL challenge your aerials. If memory serves me right, Luigi's aerials outranges Jiggs'.

And as I have said earlier, Luigi can simply recover high or VERY low. I have fought a Jiggs, and she is pretty skilled at edgeguarding, yet she only manages to gimp me once out of around 14 off-stages.

Wait..... I don't really think Luigi will shield her aerials often. His aerials are force to be reckoned with. Yeah, I know that, Jiggs has great aerials, however, Luigi's aerials are lighting-fast. Combined with his greater damage output than Mario, he shouldn't be worse than Mario in this MU.

Plus, Luigi's B-air KILLS. It has more power than Mario's. It's Luigi's smash attack in the air.

I honestly have not has bad time with Jigglys. Yeah, I lost to some, but still, no matter how good your ground or air game is, there is no insta-win when opponents start to challenge you in those. Luigi has great advantage over Jiggly on the ground, and does not have a very bad time fighting her in the air.

Check out his N-air! It comes out ridiculiously fast, and if Luigi Cyclone kills at around 120%, then that is roughly the percentage Luigi's N-air.

Sorry for a wall of text, but I think you guys are seriously underestimating Luigi's air game. Air game is Luigi's best, and this is definitely a plus to Mario.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Any matchup where Luigi relies on Cyclone sounds like one that he hates.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Whoa whoa whoa!

Tell me, Mario's smashes kills earlier?

It's probably just about 10% difference. Plus, Luigi's D-smash IS A KILL MOVE.

And you guys forgot Luigi is one of the best comboer in the game. You get grabbed and for Jiggs' case, 15% guaranteed. D-throw + F-air is a true combo, and he can also mix Luigi Cyclone in.

You say 120% is a percentage where Jiggly shouldn't live that long.

Well, you are not going to get Luigi off-stage before he feed you 50-60% outta some grabs. No, no matter who you are, D-throw + F-air/Luigi Cyclone IS A TRUE COMBO.

It doesn't matter if Mario's smashes kill earlier. If he cannot rack up damage (I assume U-tilts won't work?), then those smashes won't kill. Plus......

Luigi has better air game and grab game than Mario. And his ground combat is just about on par. His traction may be bad, but that's a thing to work out with.

Plus, Luigi will most likely battle Jiggly in the air. Even though Jiggly has better air game, Luigi's is not to be underestimated. Mario's worse because he cannot jump as high or fall as slow, and his F-air is SLOW!

No. I get what you guys are thinking. You are going to cancel out Cyclone with Jiggs' aerials right?

I can tell you all this, IT WON'T BE ALWAYS THE CASE.

Nope, Luigi is far more unpredictable than Mario. He WILL challenge your aerials. If memory serves me right, Luigi's aerials outranges Jiggs'.

And as I have said earlier, Luigi can simply recover high or VERY low. I have fought a Jiggs, and she is pretty skilled at edgeguarding, yet she only manages to gimp me once out of around 14 off-stages.

Wait..... I don't really think Luigi will shield her aerials often. His aerials are force to be reckoned with. Yeah, I know that, Jiggs has great aerials, however, Luigi's aerials are lighting-fast. Combined with his greater damage output than Mario, he shouldn't be worse than Mario in this MU.

Plus, Luigi's B-air KILLS. It has more power than Mario's. It's Luigi's smash attack in the air.

I honestly have not has bad time with Jigglys. Yeah, I lost to some, but still, no matter how good your ground or air game is, there is no insta-win when opponents start to challenge you in those. Luigi has great advantage over Jiggly on the ground, and does not have a very bad time fighting her in the air.

Check out his N-air! It comes out ridiculiously fast, and if Luigi Cyclone kills at around 120%, then that is roughly the percentage Luigi's N-air.

Sorry for a wall of text, but I think you guys are seriously underestimating Luigi's air game. Air game is Luigi's best, and this is definitely a plus to Mario.

Jigglypuff is anticombo and is usually in the air so it'll be hard for him to grab. Her aerials are the fastest aerials in the game. It's not impossible to win of course but jiggs has an advantage

 

[TriTails]

It doesn't matter if Jiggly is an anticombo because Luigi also has true combos in his arsenal.

And in order to recover her jumps, she has to fall to the ground. That is the time where she is most likely vunerable. Plus, in the air, Luigi can slap her for 9% a piece, or bicycle kick that deals 11%, or a sex kick that deals either 12% or 6%. Or dat Cyclone.

Luigi has a lot more options in the air.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I really don't understand why having a better air game really matters here. If I'm not mistaken, Mario does well v. Puff due to his speed and performance on the ground against Puff, then having U Smash as a great anti air? I just don't see how Luigi can do much of anything with his traction, ground speed (so that he can get to a midair Puff) and air speed (so he can actually touch the Puff). I get the whole Cyclone thing, but that move is insanely punishable on whiff. Sure, Luigi's aerials are better than Mario's, but his air speed severely limits that advantage in practice.

 

[Salad Bowl]

It doesn't matter if Jiggly is an anticombo because Luigi also has true combos in his arsenal.

And in order to recover her jumps, she has to fall to the ground. That is the time where she is most likely vunerable. Plus, in the air, Luigi can slap her for 9% a piece, or bicycle kick that deals 11%, or a sex kick that deals either 12% or 6%. Or dat Cyclone.

Luigi has a lot more options in the air.

Yep then jiggs cancels it with nair

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's U-smash also has invincibility on his head, and it reaches out a little further.

Thing is, I believe Jiggly has no projectile?

Then she must be close in order to deal damage right?

Unlike Mario, Luigi's strategy is about 'Wait for them to approach and punish accordingly', while Mario is 'Go tackle them head-on! Yeehaw!'

Luigi's ground speed is a little slower, however, since 'Puff WILL approach him, then he should be getting her in his face most of the time.

Luigi doesn't need to chase her, it's her who must chase him, or she won't win.

And when she does approach, Luigi doesn't need to worry about speed anymore, and focus on bringing out his great air game.

EDIT: No for N-air. You won't be able to bring it out every single time, or it'll suffer from stale. It's the same case as shielding the Cyclone. You can say 'I'll shield the Cyclone' but that isn't usually the case.

Plus, it's a good thing to wonder whenever Jiggs can land a hit before Luigi can land his. Luigi's aerials outranges Jiggly (I think) or at least have the same range. Plus, Luigi's doesn't need to worry about missing aerials, as he can spam his like no tommorow.

 

[ZHMT]

You are wrong, Mario is about wait for approach and punish as well.

Also have you played any Jigglypuffs that actually know the matchup and space their aerials properly? Its just fact that Luigi has way too much trouble dealing with basic bread and butter strategies that Puff is capable of. At a lower level of play matchups are generally based of individual experience. We are all there right now because the game is young. Matchups should be based on high level play, where mistakes are minimal. There are too many problems that are already apparent for the matchup to be even. The biggest issues being Luigis traction and recovery which are already stated.

If you shield Jigglypuffs nair, bair, or fair and they land within the auto cancel window, Luigi can't punish it at all. This is bad. You basically have to powershield everything which isn't going to happen against proper mixups.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Luigi's U-smash also has invincibility on his head, and it reaches out a little further.

Thing is, I believe Jiggly has no projectile?

Then she must be close in order to deal damage right?

Unlike Mario, Luigi's strategy is about 'Wait for them to approach and punish accordingly', while Mario is 'Go tackle them head-on! Yeehaw!'

Luigi's ground speed is a little slower, however, since 'Puff WILL approach him, then he should be getting her in his face most of the time.

Luigi doesn't need to chase her, it's her who must chase him, or she won't win.

And when she does approach, Luigi doesn't need to worry about speed anymore, and focus on bringing out his great air game.

EDIT: No for N-air. You won't be able to bring it out every single time, or it'll suffer from stale. It's the same case as shielding the Cyclone. You can say 'I'll shield the Cyclone' but that isn't usually the case.

Plus, it's a good thing to wonder whenever Jiggs can land a hit before Luigi can land his. Luigi's aerials outranges Jiggly (I think) or at least have the same range. Plus, Luigi's doesn't need to worry about missing aerials, as he can spam his like no tommorow.

She doesn't need to approuch she can crouch under his fireballs

 

[Desu~]

B-but... but...
What if I tell you that...
combo potential =/= great air game

 

[ZHMT]

Luigis nair is really good and hits frame 3 iirc. I mean he has a good overall set of aerials, bair is decent, fair is spammable. Luigi has faster ground attacks too, the issue is Puff can play reactive and usually one of the best counters to that is shielding which Luigi isn't the best at.

Usmash is good however it shouldn't hit too often, I'm guilty of getting hit by it a good amount of times, however over time and with practice it won't happen much anymore. Just don't attack Luigi up close in the air and don't go above him. These are things you shouldn't be doing anyway in most matchups.

This isn't just Luigi, but vs Mario and his usmash, vs Marth and Lucina and their up smashes. People are going to stop running into these attacks at some point.

 

[Salad Bowl]

The friction just makes the MU bad, if he didnt have such low friction, the MU would be even.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...-pit-dark-pit-rectified.383217/#post-18211729

According to this list, which has Standard Monado Shulk but lacks Miis, Mario has the 9th highest air speed, placing just better than DK and worse than Greninja, and has ~89% the air speed of Puff. Luigi is 50, only beating out standard Shield Shulk and DDD, and placing worse than DDD, and at about 58% of Puff's air (yay math!). This is just forward aerial speed, not deceleration.

Now, I haven't played the matchup much, but from this basic theorycrafting, I dont see how Luigi can get the opportunity to do anything to Puff in air-air combat, especially compared to Mario, if the Puff spaces their aerials (bair) correctly. Slap isn't disjointed is it? Because if not, and maybe even if it is, Bair just flat out beats it. Nair too. Luigi's bair, I'm not too sure, but Puff has the air speed to be able to punish it. These sort of things, I don't feel quite right going off of an account of online play. Offline tournament experience is probably all that should be considered for such things like this, precise aerial spacing and whatnot.

 

[Salad Bowl]

So do we agree on 60-40?

 

[LordTakeo]

Still not really. I'm staying true to 55/45, but oh well.
You guys have currently argued in a repeading circle, instead of really crushing arguments, there are just vage assumptions, and math. (Of course a few good ones, like in OP's post.)

But we are players in flesh and blood. And argument said "tornado is punishable" is true, but then again, I tornado offstage, so I'm falling instead of letting myself getting hit by puff. My fireballs are quite accurate and hit very well, even with puff's insane air mobility, since I can aerial her after the airdodge, if I do it right. (Excluding the randomness of weegees green missle.)

But that's not the matter right now, it's a "when, if" szenario. We are discussing about puff in theory, as if a lv.50 amiibo would play against a lv.50 weegee amiibo, with perfect execusion of every move. The I'd say yes, yes Puff is superior, 60/40 sounds reasonable.
But I think a few of us thinking it's based on player experience, so they argue about 50/50, and I'd give them right, it would be more realistic, since no human is foolproof.

But this isn't a thread about this, it's a thread about how puff has the upper hand in theory.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

I would say the matchup is slightly in luigis favor but not by much

 

[TriTails]

I delete this post.

 

[LordTakeo]

Gotta say, I have nothing more to object to, to the OP's post. He picked quite good arguments as quotes, and I'm happy with that, it doesn't look too biased.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Now were starting bowser, now discuss

 

[rekt]

Hey all, intermediate skilled Bowser main and here's my 2pence.

Bowser:

• Scary under rage(100%+)
• Decent Aerial game
• Decent Approaches
• Eats shields like a boss
• Numerous kill moves
• Decent Approach
• Heavy

Now, I haven't played against Jiggs too much, but I'll give it a go. Jiggs seems to have trouble with staying alive. Bowser doesn't have trouble with that as long as he stays at relatively equal %, but he does have trouble with comboing and juggling. I feel like your best bet as Jiggs is to outplay him in the air because, while Bowser does have a decent air game, his air game has quite a bit of startup and ending lag. I would stay away from right above him while he is on the ground because of his autoguard'ed upSmash. And do your best to avoid his sideTilts and jabs. Bowser bomb eats shields like none other and could kill Jiggs incredibly early if not avoided. Bowser really has no AT to be aware of, but he is based around jabs and tilts to build damage.

Let me know if anything seems wrong!

 

[Salad Bowl]

Hey all, intermediate skilled Bowser main and here's my 2pence.

Bowser:

• Scary under rage(100%+)
• Decent Aerial game
• Decent Approaches
• Eats shields like a boss
• Numerous kill moves
• Decent Approach
• Heavy

Now, I haven't played against Jiggs too much, but I'll give it a go. Jiggs seems to have trouble with killing and staying alive. Bowser doesn't have trouble with either, but he does have trouble with comboing and juggling. I feel like your best bet as Jiggs is to outplay him in the air because, while Bowser does have a decent air game, his air game has quite a bit of startup and ending lag. I would stay away from right above him while he is on the ground because of his autoguard'ed upSmash. And do your best to avoid his sideTilts and jabs. Bowser bomb eats shields like none other and could kill Jiggs incredibly early if not avoided. Bowser really has no AT to be aware of, but he is based around jabs and tilts to build damage.

Let me know if anything seems wrong!

Jiggs doesnt have a killing problem. Her bair can kill bowser at 115% which is relatively early considering how heavy bowser is. theres also rest since bowser is big so a rest wont be that had to get on him because of his hurtbox

 

[Jiggly]

I always find the bowser MU to be easy, as bowser is really easy to mess with. Aerials at head level are great. All he can do is a high ftilit, but he can't abuse that as it has decent end lag. Jiggs, as stated earlier, does have an issue being above bowser, but Jiggs always has a problem with being above opponents, so this isn't anything too new, but is an even bigger problem against bowser. Bowsers aerials are good, but of course Jiggs is better. I feel like jiggs Fairs do a great job walling bowser out. Bowser's aerials also have too much endlag, I often find myself getting an easy rest after a dodged/spaced aerial. Bowser's killing potential is a problem, but due to jiggs potential in spacing and aerial approach, I feel like bowser has a tough time in this MU.

 

[Salad Bowl]

He can get super early kill like i think an uncharged fsmash kills at 40%. if thats not it, his bowser bomb and fsmash can break his shield which is something jiggs main never wants. Jigglypuff can mess with bowser and her fair really messes with him. a great this is that bowsers move have lag which jigglypuff WILL punish. a rest can kill him at 70% not counting rage and a bair kills around 115% which is pretty early against a bowser. his huge size is a good thing since it makes rest easier to land. He is also gimpable. I think its a 50:50 MU imo

 

[rekt]

Fixed my post a tad, I figured my friend was playing him rather poorly, thanks for clarifying! :

EDIT:

He can get super early kill like i think an uncharged fsmash kills at 40%. if thats not it, his bowser bomb and fsmash can break his shield which is something jiggs main never wants. Jigglypuff can mess with bowser and her fair really messes with him. a great this is that bowsers move have lag which jigglypuff WILL punish. a rest can kill him at 70% not counting rage and a bair kills around 115% which is pretty early against a bowser. his huge size is a good thing since it makes rest easier to land. He is also gimpable. I think its a 50:50 MU imo

It is his forwardSmash you are thinking of. But both his upSmash, BzerBomb, and CommandThrow can kill early too.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

How great is wall of pain fairs against Bowser? Heavy and big, sounds like it would hurt

 

[Salad Bowl]

How great is wall of pain fairs against Bowser? Heavy and big, sounds like it would hurt

it works on every character except the really light ones like jiggs, G&W, Kirby, and Rosalina

 

[KlefkiHolder]

it works on every character except the really light ones like jiggs, G&W, Kirby, and Rosalina

Yeah, I know. However, how well it works also depends on the character. Just asking how it is in this MU

 

[drakeirving]

• Scary under rage(100%+)
• Decent Aerial game
• Decent Approaches
• Eats shields like a boss
• Numerous kill moves
• Decent Approach
• Heavy

Agreed. Jiggs always has to be wary of Bowser hitting anything because his moves hit hard and Bowser can grab center easily if he hits.

One thing about shields: Bowser does eat shield amazingly well, and Jiggs has to pretty much avoid a rising Bomb at all times. However, many attacks that eat shield have enough ending lag that a Rest punish is easy (especially because of his massive hurtbox); upB and downsmash being notable examples. This shouldn't matter too much in the overall matchup because Bowser has other options, but just to mention.

I feel like your best bet as Jiggs is to outplay him in the air because, while Bowser does have a decent air game, his air game has quite a bit of startup and ending lag.

In my experience, some minimal ground game is excellent mixup. Jabs, ftilt and grabs are all quite good and relatively safe. Meanwhile, properly shielding Bowser's attacks can lead to Rest opportunities, so he has to be a bit careful during fisticuffs as well. That all being said, Bowser clearly has the upper hand here.

Some more comments from personal experience, the best play against Jiggs seems to be very noncommittal, using lots of nair/fair to keep her out while also being able to both approach or move away. Above people are saying his aerials have a lot of ending lag, but I've fought a handful of good Bowser players that do a good job of preventing any ins. Maybe I need some more recent fights.

Bowser tends to be easy to juggle because of his weight, poor horizontal momentum and lack of safe attacks from above. His dair and downB are his main options of getting down, which are both easily punished.

Also, it's pretty easy to nail the close-bair because of Bowser's hurtbox, which is probably leading to those relatively early kills people are talking about.

 

[Jerodak]

So the way I see it it's like this, Puff has a lot of tricks in the air with good mix-ups and pressure, a functional shield breaker, powerful K.O options, combos , and a respectable Recovery/Landing game. If puff can get around Bowser's Defenses then it has the potential to do quite a bit of damage and maybe even get a Bair or Rest K.O. So Puff's approach appears to be pretty solid, and things can be pretty dangerous offstage especially if the Puff player knows what they are doing.

On the other hand, in order to really gets it's game started, Puff has to get past all of Bowser's defensive options, which isn't an easy thing to do, Bowser's defensive game is very strong, he is also very heavy and all of his attacks put on hefty chunks of damage, he can out-range puff on the ground and in the air, and because he also hits relatively hard even with tilts, he can afford to just wait and play his poke n punish game and still get K.Os within reasonable percent ranges. Some of his K.O moves do overextend him quite a bit, but it doesn't matter that much when he doesn't actually need his big moves to K.O. The shield breaker from Bowser probably isn't super relevant in this match-up mainly because of the major emphasis on evasion over shielding from Puff in general. So if those ever happen then they will likely be pretty rare, and not to mention there's the major risk of spot-dodge to rest which provides an unfavorable risk-reward ratio. Most use of Down be will likely be to punish mistakes so that the first hit will actually connect and lead into the second.

Bowser's anti-air options are pretty good too, shellguard up smash, up tilt, up angled forward tilt, short hopped forward air, and even Up air in some situations, all make for solid anti-air options. Bowser's Pivot grab range is enormous and can also cover some approach options. Firebreath, while not exactly great as an anti-air, can be useful for dealing with a puff that's trying to pressure from a certain range, but outside of that, there isn't much else that it does specifically for this match-up and it probably won't come up that much, if at all. Bowser's Fair can abuse an aerial blindspot that Puff appears to have when used from the correct angle, usually when Puff is a bit higher up in the air and Bowser can space Fair from a Diagonal angle underneath Puff where there's quite a bit of intangible arm between Puff and Bowser's hurtbox.

The bottom line is, from my personal experience, and just by looking at the attributes of both characters, It feels like Puff has to do a little more work in this match-up to get results, and that it's easier for Bowser to hide his weaknesses in this match. The difference in weight and K.O potential is just a bit more in Bowser's favor here, and it's not like he loses in mobility either, he has enough movement to keep up as much as he needs to with Puff, especially on the ground, and his defensive options are both vast and powerful. It's not unwinnable for Puff at all, but it looks like the edge would go to Bowser.

 

[Desu~]

I find Bowser to be one of the most dangerous threat against Jiggs in this game because of the exact big statements mentionned above. Not only that, but they even went on and reduce Bowser's aerial startups by alot. Just the way he moves around in-game is enough to say that Bowser became way more versatile than ever.

Im not exactly sure how Bowser's jabs happens to come out, but basing on his new upright stance I can only assume that his jabs could be avoided by only crouching. That way we can make sure that Bowser wouldn't hastily use his jabs as a "get away" mean.

The worst feeling I've ever had about Bowser from Brawl has been his side b. That thing had deceptive range back then. I don't really know how much that move happened to come out since then, but I can only imagine that players will most probably not hesitate to use it often; especially in the air.

I'd also think that everyone should know that shielding bowser bomber is and will NEVER be something to even think about. This totally eats your shield and might as well break it on the spot if you held it for too long.

Now I might as well be speculating here, but fair might as well be the only spacing tool needed to go up against Bowser. But I also think that dair could still be used for crossover means. But caution is definitively needed when approaching Bowser because of his new sheer power.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I think this MU really comes down to how good Boswer's OoS options are. From what I've been hearing, it seems they're pretty good.

I think something that should be brought up is Boswer's large size. While it may be difficult to break through his defensive options, when Jiggs does, she can easily carry Bowser across the stage with Fairs. It also causes him to be much easier to Rest than other characters (though, then again, Bowser can punish Rest a lot more, too.)

I don't really have very much experience with this MU at all, but it kinda seems like whoever spaces better / plays smarter wins this.

 

[B!squick]

Jiggs doesnt have a killing problem. Her bair can kill bowser at 115% which is relatively early considering how heavy bowser is. theres also rest since bowser is big so a rest wont be that had to get on him because of his hurtbox

Off-stage, probably. From the side platform of Battlefield? I was able to survive getting hit at about 130%. This was Training mode though so a fresh BAir might have done the trick, but probably not at 115%. And getting Bowser off-stage is the tricky part. And actually landing the BAir is the other tricky part. Bowser can and will try to recover high so he can Bomb to the ledge when off-stage.

Additionally, I was only able to get fresh Rest to kill starting at 73% and this was from the top platform on Battlefield. I didn't check the stage floor level because I'm stupid, but I'd ballpark that kill percent in the 80's?

Im not exactly sure how Bowser's jabs happens to come out, but basing on his new upright stance I can only assume that his jabs could be avoided by only crouching. That way we can make sure that Bowser wouldn't hastily use his jabs as a "get away" mean.

This sounded so crazy I just had to test it.

No, you can not crouch under Bowser's Jab. Would have been hilarious if it was true though.


Jerodak covered pretty much everything. The only thing I might add is that I can't overstate just how good Bowser's Jab is. It gives him a +7 frame advantage on hit. And after checking the frame data, Jiggly lacks a Jab of her own that's fast enough to prevent a follow up. Which means your only option is to Shield or Spot Dodge, neither of which are something you want to be forced into doing. A Spot Dodge will leave you open to the second hit of DTilt and Bowser Bomb tears through Shields.

In short, stay in the air, poke his face when you can, and take care of USmash and various aerials. Lacking a projectile, Bowser can approach at his leisure and that's not good for Puff.

I don't really have very much experience with this MU at all, but it kinda seems like whoever spaces better / plays smarter wins this.

Agreed. And Bowser being Bowser and Jigglypuff being Jigglypuff, Bowser is the one who can afford to make more mistakes.

 

[ZHMT]

I've been living with someone who Mains Bowser for about 2 weeks now and makes money playing Smash, (meaning he's not bad). Ill give you my and possibly his idea on the matchup in a bit. I personally think its even, and stages sway the matchups more than the last 2 matches we critiqued. We have more stages that are better for us in the Apex ruleset so maybe that makes it 55:45, Ill wait until later today when we play a few hours of the matchup to refresh myself on it.

As a whole, Puff should be at slight advantage, and gimping bowser is easy so idk. Also bair kills him before 115% if its fresh, without rage, I've straight up KOd Bowser at 85 with DI at the close third of FD because I was at 100%.

Bowsers tilts have armor/intangibility (I forgot which, will check later). Up B out of shield is good however very easy to DI so it doesn't kill as often as it looks on paper. His aerials are a lot stronger than ours obviously, except maybe our bair lmao. However ours have more range and are safer so we should be playing a percision spacing and baiting game as Bowser will likely be trying to keep us out because our grab is great in this matchup and just focusing on good punishes as he only needs about 4 to put us at a reliable KO percent.

Hit for hit, Bowser loses the matchup if our Rests are on point, Rest is great here but we need to be aware of dying after his respawn. Without Rest, hit for hit, Bowser is adventagous about 65:35. Then offstage we are adventagous by a lot, and we generally win spacing battles when were close to Bowser with Jab Mixups, Jab guaranteed followups, and grabs. Just outside of Bowsers range we win spacing battles by weaving in fast and punishing his laggy moves with low range (a mix between large frame and relative slow aerial speed). We only really lose on the ground when were around the range where his ftilt hits us with his fist. Also from below we can juggle Bowser so easily with uair, and uair beats his dair because ours has a lot more reach/disjoint.

Also Bowser bomb breaking Puffs shield isn't relevant in the matchup, let's not bring it up anymore xP

Bowser bomb only breaks it if both hits connect and since there's so little shield stun we can just drop shield after the first hit and eat the second. That is a backup if we already shield the telegraphed and easy to predict/react to move.

Also in the air Bowser can side B and land without lag and do almost anything, just a note.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Additionally, I was only able to get fresh Rest to kill starting at 73% and this was from the top platform on Battlefield. I didn't check the stage floor level because I'm stupid, but I'd ballpark that kill percent in the 80's?
.

I didn't believe this so I tested it in training mode

Rest kills Bowser from the top plat of Battlefield at 43%.

From the stage itself, 65%.

While this is without DI, its all without rage and the fresh bonus as well. Also on the top plat you can U Tilt Rest early. Starting at ~25% before the U tilt.

EDIT: Just got to test with someone and the Rest from U Tilt -> Rest CAN be airdodged. He got it in within a few frames before the Rest, so maybe this option isnt the best. But you can bait the AD out and Rest, so there's that. Also Up Air should be nice instead of a Rest, which can very well lead into a Rest.

 

[MaxThunder]

I'd say it's even or slight advantage bowser... everything i wanted to say has been said...

 

[ZHMT]

Battlefield has a higher ceiliing than all of the neutral stages. Also there is more to be said soon.

 

[B!squick]

I didn't believe this so I tested it in training mode

Rest kills Bowser from the top plat of Battlefield at 43%.

From the stage itself, 65%.

While this is without DI, its all without rage and the fresh bonus as well. Also on the top plat you can U Tilt Rest early. Starting at ~25% before the U tilt.

EDIT: Just got to test with someone and the Rest from U Tilt -> Rest CAN be airdodged. He got it in within a few frames before the Rest, so maybe this option isnt the best. But you can bait the AD out and Rest, so there's that. Also Up Air should be nice instead of a Rest, which can very well lead into a Rest.

It couldn't have been fresh because it was Training mode.

Your testing was also flawed because I have further evidence.

http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

Rest kills at 70% normally. I highly doubt that number would be lower against Bowser.

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

 

[Jiggly]

I'm pulling 60:40 Jiggs favor with this MU tbh

 

[KlefkiHolder]

It couldn't have been fresh because it was Training mode.

Your testing was also flawed because I have further evidence.

http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

Rest kills at 70% normally. I highly doubt that number would be lower against Bowser.

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

I know it wasn't fresh? I mentioned it was without the bonus as it is training mode.

Maybe those percents are pulled from after the hit as well? I'm getting mine from before. And I really don't know what to tell you if the pastebins, which I'm familiar with, disagree with my in game testing.

 

[ZHMT]

It couldn't have been fresh because it was Training mode.

Your testing was also flawed because I have further evidence.

http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

Rest kills at 70% normally. I highly doubt that number would be lower against Bowser.

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

Yeah because rest is going to kill Jigglypuff at 70, Sheik at 70, Mario at 70, and Bowser at 70 too. Where doe it say the percents listed in that are where moves kill normally? With DI and stage variance there's no way for anything to list one percent accurately. Also Bowser is KOd at 60 on average without rage or DI on the floor of the stage. If you want evidence, test it for yourself.