Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Locuan]

Hey everyone! The discussion period for the Jiggly Match-Up is to start today on the Marth Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you guys could help us out!

 

[Jiggly]

@ZHMT are you gonna update OP with Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina? Are we done with Rosalina? This thread keeps dying, and I would really love to work on some matchups more xD

 

[JarOfPlasma]

Also, you have no notable quotes for Bowser.

 

[GaiustheThief]

First time in this thread
Is there any real discussion
going on right now?
The OP says discussing Rosaluma but I don't really see much of anything

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently, I am the only person here who has any significant experience in the matchup.

@ DanGR @Gadiel_VaStar

Someone could try calling over Rosalina players this way.

 

[Jiggly]

Apparently, I am the only person here who has any significant experience in the matchup.

@ DanGR @Gadiel_VaStar

Someone could try calling over Rosalina players this way.

I talked about the MU too xD

But I already went to the Rosalina MU thread and asked for help and linked this thread, it didn't work out...

 

[Jester Kirby]

Not to derail anything here, but the Jigglypuff boards are (supposed to be) discussing the matchup against Rosalina right now. I appear to be the only person there with significant experience against the character, and it's at a standstill. If you want to chime in to agree with me or say that I'm dumb, now's your chance--

You're Dumb. ....lol jk

This MU is interesting. Rosalina can definitly box you out if you're not patient. Jiggly puff has nice air mobility, you will want to make sure that you're abusing that and looking for gaps in Rosa's fortress rather than trying to beat her right out. Rosa's disjointed hitboxes and Luma aid pretty much mean Jigg's little feets won't be bashing through much and you generally don't want to trade with a heavier character with more kill power anyway.

As reflex said, you're going to want to be patient and weave your way in with your superior air mobility. Rosalina is tall, and a huge tagrget for you to knock around. Get her off stage and go for the gimp, our recovery has no hit box. Rosalina's plan is going to be to box you out, rack up damage and go for that early kill. I generally abuse f-air, b-air and u-air here as they're all pretty safe in this MU. Jab is nice, not as amazing here as in some other MUs but can def get jiggly out o Rosa's face if she's close to the ground.

Rest is pretty easy to land on Rosalina,and while Rosalina my be throwing out a ton of massive, lingering hit boxes, there are gaps. Find them and punish. Once you find patters you should be able to rack up damage easy, just don't get caught by a stray U-air or something from luma, she lifts and can kill jiggly stupid early. I don't think Jigg's has any reliable ways of killing luma while also attacking Rosalina. (Maybe pound?)

At lower levels I can see this being a wreck fest for jiggly, but at higher levels where the jiggly player is smart about her spacing and can get in those gaps to punish, it evens up. Jiggly def has to work harder than Rosa though, so I'll say 55:45 too.

tl;dr, stay patient, punish openings to rack up damage, gimp her recovery or land that rest. Rosalina is light too. Watch out for u-air, luma d-air (it has a wider hitbox than you think), and up-smash.

Hope that helps.

Reflex, it's a crime that we never played at KiT so I hope to see ya at Scenic and/or Final Round!

 

[MezzoMe]

Apparently, I am the only person here who has any significant experience in the matchup.

@ DanGR @Gadiel_VaStar

Someone could try calling over Rosalina players this way.

I don't have enough experience with the match-up and Jigglypuff to give an analysis, so I'll need several confirmations/disconfirmations in order to gain the most concrete analysis possible.
First off, it's true that the Rosalina's reward from a rapid jab isn't among the highest she can get because of how easily Purin escapes it, but I need to know, what options does Jigglypuff have to escape juggling aside her aerial mobility? Because the three-hit jab sends at a somewhat vertical trajectory, and with Jigglypuff being floaty, he'll get one of the most vertical trajectories. Back to the jab, it can combo into a Uair at several percents, and the endlag of it is low enough to give trouble in being avoided via air speed, the same applies for two Uairs chained toghether.
I'll continue later.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While it's risky, Rest is invincible on Frame 1 and hits on Frame 2-4, so combos that are airtight on other characters are often broken and punished by the move. If you read it, you can obviously punish it however you want, but you also risk dying at 30% (pre-Rest), too, so there's something scary on both sides.

 

[MezzoMe]

Uair's disjointed hitbox hits too high in order for Rosalina to be hit by rest, and tough the strongest hitbox of the Uair is right before Luma's face, wich became infamous for things like 16% kills and the likes, it isn't at all required in order to reliably K.O., especially near the blast line and against a floaty and light character, as such Rest would only expose Jigglypuff to a well timed UTilt Shoryuken to easily net a K.O. in most cases. If that' her only answer, then it's something that Jigglypuff needs to respect since Rosalina would have access to a safe move that gives her high reward, especially at higher percentages, wich, by immediate consequence, makes a number of stages, namely Kongo Jungle 64, preferrable to stages like Halberd and Duck Hunt, from Jigglypuff's perspective.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Uair's disjointed hitbox hits too high in order for Rosalina to be hit by rest, and tough the strongest hitbox of the Uair is right before Luma's face, wich became infamous for things like 16% kills and the likes, it isn't at all required in order to reliably K.O., especially near the blast line and against a floaty and light character, as such Rest would only expose Jigglypuff to a well timed UTilt Shoryuken to easily net a K.O. In most cases. If that' her only answer, then it's something that Jigglypuff needs to respect since Rosalina would have access to a safe move that gives her high reward, especially at higher percentages, wich, by immediate consequence, makes a number of stages, namely Kongo Jungle 64, preferrable to stages like Halberd and Duck Hunt, from Jigglypuff's perspective.

Are you sure that Jab -> U-Air is a true combo? That sounds suspect, since she takes at least five frames to get off the ground and U-Air's earliest hitbox is Frame 8, so that's 13 frames after a Jab cancel, and Rosalina and Luma's Jabs (1 and 2, anyway) don't scale in knockback based on the opponent's percent, so outside of your own Rage (maybe; that's the only thing that could affect the hitstun), this would have to be a true combo at any percent in order to actually work.

I've never been hit by this, myself; if I can jump away from Jab -> U-Smash, I have enough time to jump and airdodge a U-Air. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[MezzoMe]

It's not a true combo, and I wasn't referring to Jab cancelling (also I thought that rage didn't affect Jabs, since Fox's double Jab combo is independant from rage), I was referring to the third hit of the Jab followed by an Uair, like the one at 11:36

From 0% to mid-high percentages, after fullhopping and Uairing the attack will hit near the victim, though interestingly enough, it usually hits with the middle hitbox, hardly ever with the closest or farthest one, as such attacking with undisjointed hitboxes is not effective for dodging the Uair, also characters get hit before they can get out via aerial mobility, and with Rest not being viable, an airdodge is the only option left to dodge the Uair.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Post-Jab3? We'll just jump sideways and get to the ledge. Our horizontal aerial mobility is among the best in the game, and we risk almost nothing by spending a couple of jumps to move around you. As we are very light, the Jab3 would send us higher than normal, preventing us from being all that low to get U-Air'd, or so I imagine.

 

[MezzoMe]

Several characters get hit by the Uair before they can move out of the hitbox, because of Luma advancing during the Jab and covering a chunk of space while Uairing but now I'm starting to have a doubt, I need to test this, but by trying to get out of the Uair Jigglypuff would lose space, wich is detrimental for this match-up.
Also, the Dair of Jigglypuff can indeed be used to easily separate Luma from Rosalina, but it isn't at all something Jigglypuff can safely do, in particular the attack is unsafe agains rolls, though Luma will likely get hit, the several freeze frames will eventually trap her for a number of attacks, namely a FSmash and the grab, so while it's true that the Dair has high reward, it has as well a high risk.
On a side note, Sideways Pound is too short-ranged to effectively hit Luma through calculated and precise spacing.
Speaking of spacing, there are some match-ups, such as Sonic's, where Rosalina spacing must be very calculated and patient in order to be effective, it might be the same thing here but I'm unsure about it.

 

[DanGR]

Luma upair hits on frame 3. Rosalina upair hits on frame 8.
More frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q75HZookwyqWAWE_UsgPtvRIoiYXTAK2T9n2VkBM5do/edit?pli=1#gid=0
(I don't know why I haven't listed Luma up-air yet)
Also, that frame data isn't complete. Some hitboxes are missing.


On the Rosalina side of things, the matchup feels like a Jurassic Park movie with Rosalina being myself, and Luma being my small child. Jigglysaur doesn't exactly move quickly, and Rosalina can run away the whole movie if she's smart about it, but eventually we'll confront the beast and hope our child doesn't die so early. Live on, Luma!

In most matchups, jab and n-air are our best spacing tools atm. Jab is safe, but doesn't yield much reward against Jigglypuff, and doesn't cover diagonal-up until jab3. It takes a while for Rosalina's n-air hitbox to come around her body, and Luma's n-air hitbox is out-prioritized easily. Upsmash, f-air, and b-air, while their hitboxes are huge, they leave Rosalina vulnerable if she misses, so it's risky to use as anti-air. That said, staying in the air isn't as such of a bad idea as you might think, playing the matchup for the first time.


If you don't react properly to being hit on jab1 or 2, we might jab cancel-> upsmash. If you start jumping out, jab cancel-> upair is a pretty good option. Rosalina can do a second aerial after a short hop upair, so if you airdodge the jab cancel->upsmash/upair, you have to watch out for an autocanceled aerial and followup.

Rosalina's sourspot n-air hitboxes are relatively safe on block because she can buffer a Luma jab followup to interrupt a punishment option. The hitbox on the foot is large, so generally Jigglypuff shouldn't try to beat out the hitbox with anything but side-b. If you can react quickly enough to Luma's rising n-air, Jigglypuff has enough air speed to get under Rosalina and upair. Dash attack is quick enough to punish the landing, and out-prioritize a preemptive Luma followup (usually jab). You can try rolling behind, but we've got a frame advantage unless you time the roll to coincide exactly with the jab.


In general:
Jigglypuff seems to dictate the flow of combat in neutral, though Rosalina can just retreat if she's in a bad position.
Rosalina doesn't get as nearly as much reward on hit as she does in other matchups, making a lot of her normally advantaged situations feel more like neutral situations.
Jigglypuff's lingering hitboxes and airspeed make it difficult for Rosalina's floaty, large body to land in disadvantaged situations.

Right now I think Rosalina has the advantage overall.

 

[MezzoMe]

Then basically the match-up is somewhat static, Rosalina gets little reward from both juggling and edgeguarding, while Jigglypuff has a pretty good advantage when edgeguarding, but Rosalina has easier time controlling space in neutral and can outright kill from that stance unlike Jigglypuff, and the more space she controls, the harder it becomes for Jigglypuff to counter her spacing because she'll eventually be too free to control space.
As such, Jigglypuff prefers big stages in order to not get cornered by her spacing easily while taking stocks with ease with Jigglypuff's dominant edgeguarding.
Did I miss something?
Also it looks like you aren't too keen to analize custom moves, are you? Then I guess I shouldn't analize them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff has a couple of strong neutral tools that lead into her edgeguarding, which is significant. We have one of the best Dash Attacks in the game; it starts hitting on Frame 5, gets you offstage at middling percents (and can KO in a pinch at around 130%), and is glitched so that clanking with it does not stop it from moving/hitting; clanking with a Jab or tilt will stop the opponent and cause them to still get hit by a sourspot (kind of like Brawl Mach Tornado). It is something that people have to respect. F-Air and N-Air, combined with her high horizontal aerial mobility, are good at forcing people to move back or press a button to hit her, with Forward-B covering the latter. Rosalina can't really reliably control the space in front of her in this matchup without moving backward or taking fair risks, so it's not as simple as her having KO tools there.

Frame 1-invincible Rest is pretty scary, too, and will likely become more relevant as players get more comfortable with Rosalina's pokes.

 

[MezzoMe]

Wouldn't the sourspot of the Dash Attack clash with the attack of the other character?
Also I'm pretty sure that Dash Attack is vulnerable to Pivot FTilt/Side B/Jab and several aerials.
Helped by aerial mobility, Fair and Nair can indeed break trough Rosalina's spacing, but Jigglypuff needs space herself in order to properly use them, or they'll lose to Rosalina's Nair, Dair and Star Bits most of the time.
Personally I don't see rest being used too often in this match-up because Jigglypuff needs to breack trough Rosalina's spacing in order to land it, and she can already take an early stock via edgeguarding, it can be quite useful as a combo finisher though.
Edit: you can use the default Star Bits range to pinpoint how stage control is going, from that point onward, several moves, namely the Jab, Star Bits, Nair, Dair, and in some cases DTilt and Bair can be used for several tasks, from pressuring Purin's shield and rolls, counter most of Purin's moves(each of the moves need a different way to escape, with Dair, Nair and Star Bits being the easiest to use) and limit his movements, Jigglypuff will have hard time to take back space and will most likely be pushed offstage, and from that point onward, taking back a part of the stage comes at no easy task.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The first hitbox is only clanked for the user of that hitbox, so if Luma clanks with the sweetspot or sourspot later, it doesn't prevent that hitbox from hitting Rosalina (or vice-versa if Rosalina hits second).

 

[drakeirving]

Something I want to test is a scenario where you're juggling Rosalina. Jiggs has a terrible time juggling because dair basically stops you from doing anything, but I would like to see that taken advantage of. The knockback and hitstun of Rosa's dair scales to basically nothing, so I've always wondered if it were possible to bait a dair (which is incredibly easy), get hit by a low hitbox on purpose to reset momentum, then jump straight into her and Rest. I've seen some stuff with baiting dair and airdodging into Rest, and this seems pretty similar.

Additionally, jump over Luma -> sour fair -> autocancel Rest is insanely good against Rosa because of how tall she is. Also, her jab range (without Luma) and move duration are both just long enough that a lazy roll into Rest has won me several games. As Reflex said, Rosa relies a crapton on shield especially when Luma is away, so a lot of my play seems to deal with getting around that shield one way or another. Never attack straight into a shield-ready Rosa.

That being said, this is another matchup where I haven't fought enough truly good players to form a good impression of the matchup as a whole. There's a lot of idea potential here but I don't have the means to test much.

 

[MezzoMe]

The first hitbox is only clanked for the user of that hitbox, so if Luma clanks with the sweetspot or sourspot later, it doesn't prevent that hitbox from hitting Rosalina (or vice-versa if Rosalina hits second).

So the attack should either outprioritize the Dash Attack or be trascendental in order to hit Jigglypuff?
About priority, Luma tends to not follow the usual rules of priority, and it's somethig that's not fully understood even on the Rosalina boards.
Two more notes:

1. Don't recover in a straight predictable line, or you are going to eat a Dair from Luma and a stock loss early, wich shouldn't be a problem on paper, thanks to Jigglypuff's air speed and floatiness allowing for multiple air dodges, but since the attack comes out on frame 10 it cannot be dodged on reaction. It's not at all a problem, just something you must remember.
2. Good Rosalinas actually hardly ever shield unless you are blatantly going to use an attack vulnerable to shieldgrabbing or against certain projectiles. Rosalinas usually prefer dodges to abuse of the hitlag of the attack hotting Luma to punish things she usually shouldn't, such as the afermentioned Jigglypuff's Dair, though it's more common that Luma dodges the hit as well because of his tiny hurtbox.
   

   Something I want to test is a scenario where you're juggling Rosalina. Jiggs has a terrible time juggling because dair basically stops you from doing anything, but I would like to see that taken advantage of. The knockback and hitstun of Rosa's dair scales to basically nothing, so I've always wondered if it were possible to bait a dair (which is incredibly easy), get hit by a low hitbox on purpose to reset momentum, then jump straight into her and Rest. I've seen some stuff with baiting dair and airdodging into Rest, and this seems pretty similar.

   I thought about this and Jigglypuff cannot bypass Luma's Dair when she is retreating, because he hits in place while she moves backward, additionally Luma's Dair has a single hitbox, as such you can't be hit by Luma's Dair and punish Rosalina in no case, also because Luma's Dair has a Sakurai angle, so you can get launched by no means toward Rosalina.
   However, without Luma the thing becomes easier, but you shouldn't try to get hit by the Dair for an actual reason.The only thing that can realistically juggle Rosalina with Luma is Leaping Rest.
   Looks like the theorycraft is complete enough, I don't have in mind others istances in this match-up, does anyone here have any?
   But before I must test the Jab3->Uair combo anyway.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Without using her ability to move backward often (as in, without regularly giving up space), Rosalina will have little choice with whether or not she shields often.

 

[MezzoMe]

No, she cannot, if Rosalina controls a little part of the stage trying it will result in the juggling converting into an edgeguarding situation for Rosalina, assumed that Jigglypuff doesn't get hit by the attack, as such, mix-ups are detrimental for either gaining stage control after juggling, or gaining straight damage, in particular you can hit her with a number of aerials if she fastfalls through the ground, and with Fair if she Nairs (though you must do it with relentless decision, akin to how you gimp Diddy Kong, you don't wait for it to end but be ready and strike in the middle of the attack). One more note goes to her landing. There is a technique called Lunar Landing where Rosalina autocancels early her aerials in order to be free while Luma performs the aerials. She can Lunar Land everytime she lands. Jigglypuff needs prediction in order to break trough this, don't roll or shield, you can hop into the air to bait an attack to waste the Lunar Land but don't do it predictably or she is just going to dash through you with a hitbox orbitating around her, wich translates into Jigglypuff being forced to lose a chunk of space or dhe'll get hit. Usually you can as well challange them with a Dair that'll most likely dodge the Luma hit, this is unsafe as well, especially on shield and on a moving Rosalina. Dash Attack might work but if I recall correctly Luma should hit Jigglypuff because his attack is calculated as aerial and thus ignores the law of high and low priority.
Remember this when juggling her and don't think that because she retreated with a Dair you have free space to gain.
If she fastfalls to the ground she can obviously Lunar Land so you must punish a fastfall before she hits the ground.
Tl;dr: with both juggling and Lunar Landing mindgames are needed from both sides in order to properly conquer space.

 

[DanGR]

Luma priority follows the 8% rule.

 

[Desu~]

Well from the videos of Reflex that I saw against Rosaluma, it seems to look like a game about killing Luma whenever you have the chance and then go as aggro as possible before she gets another Luma.
Since Luma flinches and just goes on free fall each time you hit it, at this point you'd have to try to keep Rosalina out of the way until you're sure you've got a dead Luma.

 

[MezzoMe]

Yeah, in fact Luma should never be launched away from Rosalina in any case.
When they are toghether, wheter or not you can follow attacking Luma after you break her spacing depends on the knockback the two of them receive. Also Luma doesn't go into freefall each time he gets launched, it depends on the attack hitting him and his healt.
I'll have to test Luma's priority when I have the time since I recall several people claiming that he follows strange rules.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina wins this match up pretty easily. I do find Jigglypuff annoying to fight though, not in a "I have trouble" kind of way, but in a "this is boring" kind of way. My general way of playing against Jigglypuff is making the stage my fort and keeping Jigglypuff off it.

You can't really juggle Jigglypuff too well with Rosalina, as she can just move to the side, but Jigglypuff can't land a hit on her too well from above. So you can get Jiggly into the air and just land whatever one or two potshots on her that you can. Jigglypuff will want to dodge any attack Rosalina throws when she is above Rosalina, so Rosalina can kinda fake her out and punish the air dodge. And if Rosalina is an expert at spacing and controlling Luma (literally nobody has reached this stage yet though), this becomes even easier.

Rollout is also completely useless against Rosalina, and I do not recommend using it. If it hits Luma, it might launch him - but this causes Jigglypuff to do her "rebound" animation, as it counts as a hit. So Rosalina can just punish it really well, she could even get a half charged Side or Down Smash in on you.

I don't feel any particular disadvantages when fighting Jigglypuff myself, beyond superior aerial attack speed, but we are only marginally slower in that regard, and have long lasting and powerful aerials anyway.

 

[Weavile's Wrath]

Rosalina wins imo.

From personal experience, it can be tough to get around a good Rosalina's Luma, when Luma is used properly as a wall and a little minion of sorts. Star Bits are annoying. Essentially, Rosalina outcamps Puff. Rosalina also moves faster on the ground, something that Jiggs can't say about her own run speed.
Stage Control: 7:3 Rosalina

Puff's aerial game is unrivaled by most characters, obviously, but Rosalina has a pretty strong aerial game too, with fast hitboxes. Also, UAir and DAir have some pretty nasty disloints. Even so, Puff has faster aerials that kill relatively early, especially on a lighter character like Rosalina.
Aerial Game: 5.5:4.5 Jigglypuff

Combos are almost negligible in this MU. Both characters are light and floaty - the perfect characteristics to get out of combos. However, Rosalina has a huge hurtbox, but in my experience, having Luma as a shield negates this flaw for the most part.
Combo Game: 5:5 Even

Rosalina's ground game isn't that great, until you add Luma into the picture. That's when stuff gets bad for Jiggs. Luma is an absolute menace when used properly. It's small but it's attacks have surprisingly large hitboxes and knockback enough to kill Jiggs early. Jigglypuff is cursed with a below average ground game, with very slow smashes and weak tilts, along with a slow DA and a jab with almost no KB. Lastly, Rosalina's disjointed UTilt poses a problem for a Puff getting back on stage.
Ground Game: 6:4 Rosalina.

In an edguarding situation, both characters can go fairly deep for a kill, as both are blessed with amazing recoveries. However, I feel Jigglypuff's aerial prowess lends it the better edgeguarding ability. Its aerials are faster than Rosalina's, and Jigglypuff has multiple jumps. However, outside of jumps, Rosalina has the much better recovery, as Launch Star can take her back onstage from almost anywhere. However, it's tough to sweetspot the ledge with.
Offstage Play/Edgeguarding/Recovery: 5.5/4.5 Jigglypuff

Add up all those ratings I gave, and it comes out as 29:21 in Rosalina's favor, which roughly translates to a 60:40 MU, and that is about what I think this matchup is - 60:40.

 

[Jiggly]

So it seems we've all have come to a consensus on the MU rating, about 60/55-40/45 Rosalina's favor. Maybe we should go into what to do as puff to win this MU, or situations where we can overpower rosa and when to use them and such. I will type up some stuff later, but this might be the best idea atm.

 

[drakeirving]

In an edguarding situation, both characters can go fairly deep for a kill, as both are blessed with amazing recoveries. However, I feel Jigglypuff's aerial prowess lends it the better edgeguarding ability. Its aerials are faster than Rosalina's, and Jigglypuff has multiple jumps. However, outside of jumps, Rosalina has the much better recovery, as Launch Star can take her back onstage from almost anywhere. However, it's tough to sweetspot the ledge with.
Offstage Play/Edgeguarding/Recovery: 5.5/4.5 Jigglypuff

I don't think I quite agree with this, or at least it seems incomplete. Rosalina's nair and fair start on frames 9 (without Luma) and 11 respectively, end hitboxes on frames 46 and 28, and autocancel on 60 and 68. While they can space and it has excellent disjoint, this is some very considerable ending lag that can be punished when Rosa is trying to recover, since if you're offstage chasing they're basically forced to use one or airdodge, then retreat and use Launch Star. Plus, Launch Star has no hitbox and Jiggs can interrupt it for free. Fair autocanceling on frame 28 makes me curious if a fair -> strong nair string offstage (8 to 20 frames after first hit, plus 6 frames for nair) is even practical for Rosalina to counter without a Luma-powered nair (frame 2).

 

[Weavile's Wrath]

I don't think I quite agree with this, or at least it seems incomplete. Rosalina's nair and fair start on frames 9 (without Luma) and 11 respectively, end hitboxes on frames 46 and 28, and autocancel on 60 and 68. While they can space and it has excellent disjoint, this is some very considerable ending lag that can be punished when Rosa is trying to recover, since if you're offstage chasing they're basically forced to use one or airdodge, then retreat and use Launch Star. Plus, Launch Star has no hitbox and Jiggs can interrupt it for free. Fair autocanceling on frame 28 makes me curious if a fair -> strong nair string offstage (8 to 20 frames after first hit, plus 6 frames for nair) is even practical for Rosalina to counter without a Luma-powered nair (frame 2).

I see. I'm not very well versed with frame data and the like. My bad. Admittedly, although I did know that Launch Star doesn't deal damage at all, I neglected to mention that. Again, my bad. Out of curiosity, do you know the active frames and IASA frames for Jiggly's aerials?

EDIT: I found the active hitbox frames, but not IASAF for Jigglypuff. Here are the active frames I found anyways, for those who like me did not know:
NAir - Frames 6-7 11%; 8-30 6%
FAir - Frames 8-9 9%; 10-20 6%
BAir - Frames 12-13 13%
UAir - Frames 9-21 9%
DAir - Frames 7-8 1.5% x 8 hits; 31-32 2%

 

[Codaption]

Personally, my preferred method with any character against Rosalina is to just body Luma. From what I'm seeing and from my (limited) personal experiences, this doesn't really work with Jigglypuff....that being said, Luma can't shield or dodge, so while she can use it to protect herself from your attacks, there's nothing she can really do to stop you if you go for a hit on Luma. Sure, she can attack you AFTER you land the hit, but if you can find ways to avoid it...well, you have yourself a dead Luma.

I can also see Pound being able to negate Luma's protection, as the forward momentum and fantastic lingering hitbox would allow it to hit both Luma AND Rosie, provided the two arent positioned too wonkily.

Not going to give an mu rating due to my aforementioned lack of usable experience, but this just makes sense to me.

 

[Desu~]

Question here.
Is Lylat Cruise a thing against Rosaluma?
Or do we stay true to our high-celling stage way?

I can also see Pound being able to negate Luma's protection, as the forward momentum and fantastic lingering hitbox would allow it to hit both Luma AND Rosie, provided the two arent positioned too wonkily.

Melee and Brawl Jiggs would say otherwise.

 

[Codaption]

Eh, it may have been heavily nerfed in range but it still has enough to (mostly) get the job done....Luma generally hangs right next to Rosie a lot of the time anyway.

 

[CHOVI]

Hey guys I dunno if this is the right thread, but how are we supposed to beat Mii Gunner? He/She has a lot of range in Fsmash and Upair and can zone us out pretty well. I just can't seem to find the space I need to punish him/her. Any tips?

 

[drakeirving]

Upair can be a nuisance if they're also moving horizontally, but they shouldn't really be hitting with it if you're moving yourself, whether it be through aerial momentum or just DIing the previous move. I'm really not too sure what to tell you if you're getting hit by fsmash, since while it's ranged, it's limited and lasts long enough that you can literally just jump over it and bop them with any aerial or even Rest if you're prepared.

 

[Envioux]

Maybe it's just me, but out of every Rosalina I have played, I don't generally find myself having trouble with her. I usually play passive aggressive, but against Rosalina I know I have to be super patient. I think the key is to getting rid of the Luma and then really go in on Rosalina before it respawns. I tend to play the matchup in the same way Fox fights Ice Climbers in Melee, being to separate Popo from Nana, taking Nana out first.

Generally I try to land a well spaced nair, which always separates the Luma and Rosalina from each other. Then I try to take out the Luma as fast as possible, and get as much damage on Rosalina as I can or potentially kill. When Luma is back, I go back to being patient and it's repeat all over again. I know typing this just makes it sound easier than it really is, but it's what works for me and I hope it helps anyone having a particularly difficult time against Rosalina.

 

[Desu~]

So...

Is this thread gonna have another OP change?
We need you ZHMT!

 

[Jiggly]

where you at @ZHMT

Edit: he hasn't been on in 3 days, he's becoming inactive...

 

[CHOVI]

Yeah, against Rosalina, I don't have too much trouble. In the air, we have good priority and can try to read aerials an punish. On the ground, it's important to watch out for Luma, but she's not THAT dangerous. If she gets separated from Rosalina, we have the advantage, and if she doesn't, we just need to try and poke with well spaced fairs/nairs. Watch out for her amazing hitboxes with smashes! Also, her upair kills us early, but it's easy to avoid.
In our advantage, Rosalina's a big target, so we can "combo" well on her.
I'd say the matchup is 55:45 for Rosalina.