Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Codaption]

Hmm....alright. I had figured her recovery would be pretty difficult to interrupt, at least Boost Kick. Did not know we could actually stand up against her on the ground, that puts a new spin on the "crouch to rest" and the matchup as a whole. (I also watched a vid about conditioning earlier so now I understand that I was kind of ignorant on that point before )

She still beats us in the air due to the range of her aerials, but that and her recovery (which I was wrong about) were the only reasons I had to give samus the lead. You've convinced me, Jiggly, I'll give it 60:40 us.

 

[Jiggly]

So we haven't heard much from @ TheReflexWonder , what are your experiences with this matchup?

 

[Macchiato]

Just crouch, It avoids her fsmash, Usmash, ftilt, utilt, dash Attack, jab, side b, up b, paralyzer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've played this matchup very little, but while you can crouch, you're still terrible at approaching. It's likely still in ZSS's favor.

 

[Hoejja]

i feel like zss is merely too fast for the fat kid that is jigglypuff... but on the other hand, i've found airdodging to rest kinda good against her b neutral, smashes...

 

[CHOVI]

Guys I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I just fought a really good Toon Link and felt helpless. His stage control was amazing, with bombs and boomerangs, and I found it really difficult to approach.
I know in theory I could kind of dondge everything and look for an opening, meanwhile poking and punishing laggy attacks (up b), but it's really difficult. Any tips?

 

[Codaption]

Guys I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I just fought a really good Toon Link and felt helpless. His stage control was amazing, with bombs and boomerangs, and I found it really difficult to approach.
I know in theory I could kind of dondge everything and look for an opening, meanwhile poking and punishing laggy attacks (up b), but it's really difficult. Any tips?

I would head to the Toon Link boards for that, myself. They know his strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else here. even I, who actually plays Toon Link fairly often.

 

[CHOVI]

I would head to the Toon Link boards for that, myself. They know his strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else here. even I, who actually plays Toon Link fairly often.

Great idea! Although I thought someone here'd have experience with the matchup

 

[Envioux]

Guys I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I just fought a really good Toon Link and felt helpless. His stage control was amazing, with bombs and boomerangs, and I found it really difficult to approach.
I know in theory I could kind of dondge everything and look for an opening, meanwhile poking and punishing laggy attacks (up b), but it's really difficult. Any tips?

Alternate between powershielding and ducking under arrows, powershield or avoid boomerang as much as possible, try to catch as many bombs as you can to use them as your own offensive pressure. Honestly, I just try to use the bombs against Link/Toon Link and fair/nair/pound my way through once he's occupied with the bomb. They can't do a damn thing if they're above you since all they have is down air, which is an easy rest punish because of that end lag. Up throw is your best friend, and pound is great for starting combos. As true with most projectile heavy characters, they tend to be in their shield a lot more often when you're close so try to bair poke and if possible, break it with pound. It's always a pain to get in, but do practice powershielding and catching the bombs so that in a real fight you can break his defense.

 

[CHOVI]

Alternate between powershielding and ducking under arrows, powershield or avoid boomerang as much as possible, try to catch as many bombs as you can to use them as your own offensive pressure. Honestly, I just try to use the bombs against Link/Toon Link and fair/nair/pound my way through once he's occupied with the bomb. They can't do a damn thing if they're above you since all they have is down air, which is an easy rest punish because of that end lag. Up throw is your best friend, and pound is great for starting combos. As true with most projectile heavy characters, they tend to be in their shield a lot more often when you're close so try to bair poke and if possible, break it with pound. It's always a pain to get in, but do practice powershielding and catching the bombs so that in a real fight you can break his defense.

Thank you so much. Any tips for practicing powershielding/bomb catching? besides getting a partner I mean

 

[Envioux]

Thank you so much. Any tips for practicing powershielding/bomb catching? besides getting a partner I mean

pray you get projectile spammers on for glory if you cant find a partner, i guess.

 

[Venemoose Koala]

Guys I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I just fought a really good Toon Link and felt helpless. His stage control was amazing, with bombs and boomerangs, and I found it really difficult to approach.
I know in theory I could kind of dondge everything and look for an opening, meanwhile poking and punishing laggy attacks (up b), but it's really difficult. Any tips?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGiWeq_t9V0
this video should be useful

 

[CHOVI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGiWeq_t9V0
this video should be useful

Yeah, thanks! I actually had already watched it a few days ago, but it did help

 

[Jiggly]

So I should be able to update the OP this weekend, and it looks like ZSS is a solid 55-45 MU by consensus. Should we move on? Or something else need pondering?

Next up when ready: sonic

 

[drakeirving]

sonic: dear god why are you choosing jigglypuff

 

[Codaption]

sonic, eh? This.....I am unsure about this one.

Is ZSS 55:45 in her favor or ours?

 

[Filler Dmon]

I've got no right to comment, given that I just started playing Jigglypuff in Smash 4 and have no tournament cred, but given that neither character really has any advantage against each other, would it be bad to call the Jig-ZSS match up straight even? Both sides can dance quite well around each other, and while we can dodge her better, I was under the assumption she could kill us easier than we could kill her. Neither side really invalidates each other, and we both have ups and downs, so it seems like it'd be even. What would tilt it in either direction?

Sonic the Hedgehog, on the other hand, dear god....

 

[Codaption]

I've got no right to comment, given that I just started playing Jigglypuff in Smash 4 and have no tournament cred, but given that neither character really has any advantage against each other, would it be bad to call the Jig-ZSS match up straight even? Both sides can dance quite well around each other, and while we can dodge her better, I was under the assumption she could kill us easier than we could kill her. Neither side really invalidates each other, and we both have ups and downs, so it seems like it'd be even. What would tilt it in either direction?

Sonic the Hedgehog, on the other hand, dear god....

Unfortunately, match ups tend to get very specific, so just tacking on a general rating isn't the safest thing to do. I see where you're coming from, though.
As a matter of fact, though, I would say we DO have an easier time killing her. Not just because of Rest and its pure unbridled power, but also because she has trouble getting kills in general. Our light weight means that we die more easily at high percents, but we can escape from a lot of her combos which makes it hard for her to rack up damage and get us TO those percents. Not to mention, there's always the offstage... Hope I could clarify things a little bit.

While we're on the topic before sonic starts, can we escape from her fsmash before it starts to kill?

 

[drakeirving]

You can SDI out, although I'm not sure at what range. I think it's worth testing to see if you can SDI and then Rest her second hit.

 

[Codaption]

Considering how it has a little bit of excess endlag (iirc), I could see it happening. If so that's a huge plus for us.

 

[Douchuumen]

Did I really just read that Jigglypuff has a better ground game than Luigi in the OP?

Wat

 

[Codaption]

Did I really just read that Jigglypuff has a better ground game than Luigi in the OP?

Wat

Wait, where is that? I'd like to see that for myself.

 

[Douchuumen]

Wait, where is that? I'd like to see that for myself.

| 60:40
Pros|He's easily gimped. Jigglypuff outranges him in the air and also has a better ground game.

 

[Jiggly]

Btw, I didn't write that. That was a previous Op. I will fix. What was meant is that when luigi is on the ground, puff has an advantage as her aerials are safe on his shield, due to him sliding.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm only double posting to make sure everyone gets the alert, but we are moving on to Sonic now! I will update Luigi, Rosalina, and ZSS when I get home, as well as talk about the Sonic MU

 

[Douchuumen]

Btw, I didn't write that. That was a previous Op. I will fix. What was meant is that when luigi is on the ground, puff has an advantage as her aerials are safe on his shield, due to him sliding.

OK, that makes a lot more sense.

I was ready to call some serious bias there XD

 

[Jiggly]

OK, that makes a lot more sense.

I was ready to call some serious bias there XD

Right thoughts, wrong wording. I will look over the rest of the OP to see if anything is off.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Jigglypuffs, Rosalina is now analyzing Jigglypuff at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to say for the Rosalina vs. Jigglypuff match-up, the discussion period will last until the end of 5/2.

 

[Filler Dmon]

Unfortunately, I can't say I know too many Rosalinas online, and I don't think I've played against one once as Jigglypuff since the game came out.

Sonic, on the other hand, I still have nightmares about... short enough that it's hard to him him low without being in his grab range and getting punished for it, fast enough to chase us around effortlessly, tricky enough to not be sure what is about to hit us, be it dash attack, grab, or smash. Probably one of Jigglypuff's hardest, potentially among the hardest, and at the very least definitely not a match up in her favor.

Or maybe I just suck Pokeballs and Sonic's super easy to beat.

 

[Codaption]

Unfortunately, I can't say I know too many Rosalinas online, and I don't think I've played against one once as Jigglypuff since the game came out.

Sonic, on the other hand, I still have nightmares about... short enough that it's hard to him him low without being in his grab range and getting punished for it, fast enough to chase us around effortlessly, tricky enough to not be sure what is about to hit us, be it dash attack, grab, or smash. Probably one of Jigglypuff's hardest, potentially among the hardest, and at the very least definitely not a match up in her favor.

Or maybe I just suck Pokeballs and Sonic's super easy to beat.

Honestly? I think people just really, really hate playing against sonic.

 

[GaiustheThief]

Sonic is definitely one of Puff's worst MUs in my opinion so you're not alone in that regard dude

 

[Jiggly]

Honestly? I think people just really, really hate playing against sonic.

I don't think it's one of the worst puff matchups. Nair beats spin dash, so you have to use that. Dash attack beats spin dash too.

 

[Codaption]

I don't think it's one of the worst puff matchups. Nair beats spin dash, so you have to use that. Dash attack beats spin dash too.

I'm talking about in general. Sonic is annoying to deal with no matter who you're playing.

 

[CHOVI]

Yeah, Sonic is just too fast :S So annoying. I DO think the matchup is not too bad though, because as Jiggly pointed out, nair beats spin dash. I say by playing patiently, we can beat him without too much difficulty.

 

[Filler Dmon]

I dunno, when playing as Lucario or Pikachu (I have no idea when I suddenly became a Pokemon trainer o.o), Sonic isn't as annoying a match up. Troublesome, sure, but still managable. But I've never felt as powerless when playinig as Jigglypuff than when playing against a skilled Sonic (except against Sheik), even against all the bloody Captain Falcons that are ever present. I know Nair beats his Spin Dash, but he's got so much control over how fast he moves that he doesn't have to rely on just a forward approach, playing probably more tricky than Diddy Kong in my book.

It seems like it's harder for us to wrack up damage on him than it is for him to damage us, and even more so for killing. Rest does not seem like a safe option against someone so speedy like him, and due to his good recovery it takes a while to kill him without. Pound needs to be applied carefully or not be used at all against someone like him, who has no problem punishing any mistake made at all. Her floatiness does help her against the "launched into the air -> Spring Jump -> Axe Kick" combo, but only for so long. I'd initially vote 40-60 Sonic, maybe more... I wouldn't put this match up any better than 50-50, and I feel at least 45-55 Sonic is ... honestly a bit generous, but I'd accept that, given I'm a newb. Maybe Pro-er Jigglypuffs could do much better than me.

On that note, I'm going to try to find videos from Youtube whenever a match up starts, so I can comment on them a bit better. Here are a few I found for Jewpuff vs Sanic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAwyQqxryLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e45u9AwdYBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFFRhgSMPxg

(I swear, I didn't pick just ones that had more Sonic wins than Jigglypuff wins. There aren't that many up on Youtube from this year, let alone recently, and I wanted to account for the patches if I could.)


On a random note, I have to ask: Is it me, or are Jigglypuff's throws only there to punish shields? Because it doesn't seem like any of them properly kill... like, ever. Or at least I sure as hell haven't been using them right.

 

[drakeirving]

It's a bad matchup. Sonic dictates most of the match most of the time. Yes nair beats spin dash, but how many Sonic players are just going to obviously spin dash into you predictably enough for you to hit it? If they let you just interrupt it, or if they don't know what to do when that option is beaten, they're bad. It's really just a way to stave them off and make spin dash not so much of a nasty threat. That isn't our advantage, that's just making it not abysmal. Sonic has fast mixups, they can just stop spinning (or wait), and they can jump into whatever. Since the main way for Puff to even get in is to punish and grab shields, they can just mindgame all day.

Dmon, they don't kill except at ridiculous percents. Really just damage (13/16% with one/two pummels) and potential stage control. Upthrow can set up to bait airdodges too.

also serynder is my man even if he got bonked there, i'm pretty sure i've caught him on FG a few times

 

[Filler Dmon]

Spoiler: match up

It's a bad matchup. Sonic dictates most of the match most of the time. Yes nair beats spin dash, but how many Sonic players are just going to obviously spin dash into you predictably enough for you to hit it? If they let you just interrupt it, or if they don't know what to do when that option is beaten, they're bad. It's really just a way to stave them off and make spin dash not so much of a nasty threat. That isn't our advantage, that's just making it not abysmal. Sonic has fast mixups, they can just stop spinning (or wait), and they can jump into whatever. Since the main way for Puff to even get in is to punish and grab shields, they can just mindgame all day.

Dmon, they don't kill except at ridiculous percents. Really just damage (13/16% with one/two pummels) and potential stage control. Upthrow can set up to bait airdodges too.

So I'm not -entirely- crazy then, even if I am a newb. That's a lot of how I feel about it.

Yeah, that's what I was starting to see. Getting as close as I can to forcing people off of the stage and then trying to go for a gimp is the best thing I get with 'em. Though I don't pummel as much as I should...

 

[Jiggly]

I dunno, when playing as Lucario or Pikachu (I have no idea when I suddenly became a Pokemon trainer o.o), Sonic isn't as annoying a match up. Troublesome, sure, but still managable. But I've never felt as powerless when playinig as Jigglypuff than when playing against a skilled Sonic (except against Sheik), even against all the bloody Captain Falcons that are ever present. I know Nair beats his Spin Dash, but he's got so much control over how fast he moves that he doesn't have to rely on just a forward approach, playing probably more tricky than Diddy Kong in my book.

It seems like it's harder for us to wrack up damage on him than it is for him to damage us, and even more so for killing. Rest does not seem like a safe option against someone so speedy like him, and due to his good recovery it takes a while to kill him without. Pound needs to be applied carefully or not be used at all against someone like him, who has no problem punishing any mistake made at all. Her floatiness does help her against the "launched into the air -> Spring Jump -> Axe Kick" combo, but only for so long. I'd initially vote 40-60 Sonic, maybe more... I wouldn't put this match up any better than 50-50, and I feel at least 45-55 Sonic is ... honestly a bit generous, but I'd accept that, given I'm a newb. Maybe Pro-er Jigglypuffs could do much better than me.

On that note, I'm going to try to find videos from Youtube whenever a match up starts, so I can comment on them a bit better. Here are a few I found for Jewpuff vs Sanic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAwyQqxryLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e45u9AwdYBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFFRhgSMPxg

(I swear, I didn't pick just ones that had more Sonic wins than Jigglypuff wins. There aren't that many up on Youtube from this year, let alone recently, and I wanted to account for the patches if I could.)


On a random note, I have to ask: Is it me, or are Jigglypuff's throws only there to punish shields? Because it doesn't seem like any of them properly kill... like, ever. Or at least I sure as hell haven't been using them right.

A lot of what you say is true except one big thing. Sonic is pretty easy to gimp. His recoery sends him straight up, and has no hitbox or invincibility. It's easy nair bait, and you just keep punishing him until it's too late.

 

[feelonine]

i think sonic's spindash is his one big tool agianst jigglypuff lol, it kinda wrecks her...im not sure if jiggs can pound over it, because all of the aerials you will be throwing out get fked by that stupid spindash haha

 

[Jiggly]

i think sonic's spindash is his one big tool agianst jigglypuff lol, it kinda wrecks her...im not sure if jiggs can pound over it, because all of the aerials you will be throwing out get fked by that stupid spindash haha

If you look up, we state that A well placed nair beats spindash.