Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[MezzoMe]

Found out that Luma does follow his own rules of priority, in fact his rapid jab (1%) clashed against Purin's DSmash (11%) but gets outprioritized by her FSmash (15%).
Also Jab3->Uair can hit Jigglypuff, and Jab 3 will launch him at a pretty vertical trajectory, I can't tell if Jigglypuff can jump over Rosalina before the Uair walls her way.
I wanted to test more of this, a while ago, but I didn't have the chance.

 

[Codaption]

Found out that Luma does follow his own rules of priority, in fact his rapid jab (1%) clashed against Purin's DSmash (11%) but gets outprioritized by her FSmash (15%).
Also Jab3->Uair can hit Jigglypuff, and Jab 3 will launch him at a pretty vertical trajectory, I can't tell if Jigglypuff can jump over Rosalina before the Uair walls her way.
I wanted to test more of this, a while ago, but I didn't have the chance.

That really just seems like regular high/low priority rules, albeit exaggerated a bit (most of the time the difference in power has to be lower than or equal to 8%, but judging from your example it seems to go up to at least 10%.)

 

[Jiggly]

maybe someone else should do the OP. @ZHMT isn't around, and even when he was he didn't really fully update the OP. Maybe someone else should take care of it?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

maybe someone else should do the OP. @ZHMT isn't around, and even when he was he didn't really fully update the OP. Maybe someone else should take care of it?

What does OP stand for anyways in the situation your talking about and I do play jiggly, not incredibly often but every once in a while.

 

[Jiggly]

What does OP stand for anyways in the situation your talking about and I do play jiggly, not incredibly often but every once in a while.

OP = original Post

 

[Desu~]

Well I dunno.

Would you like to be OP then, Jiggly?

Basically if we follow by the book, and add the stuff that experienced player has to say about the MUs, I wouldn't think OPs wouldn't need to be "professional players" to be able to update the thread.

@ TheReflexWonder

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As long as they promise to be active.

If they do, and I give them the OP, and they are not, I will give that person a stern talking to, and they will not be invited to my birthday party.

 

[Jiggly]

Well I dunno.

Would you like to be OP then, Jiggly?

Basically if we follow by the book, and add the stuff that experienced player has to say about the MUs, I wouldn't think OPs wouldn't need to be "professional players" to be able to update the thread.

@ TheReflexWonder

As long as they promise to be active.

If they do, and I give them the OP, and they are not, I will give that person a stern talking to, and they will not be invited to my birthday party.

I'm active, but idk if I would do a great job, but whatever. It's not activeness that I'm wary of being OP. I could if people are okay with it, but I was thinking reflex would be the best if he's not busy

 

[Macchiato]

@ TheReflexWonder isnt the ownership transferring thing disabled?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have no clue. I could try, I guess.

 

[Macchiato]

I have no clue. I could try, I guess.

I asked many Mods and they all said that the ownership transfer feature thing is no longer allowed. Should we just make a new thread and Lock this one?

 

[Jiggly]

I could make up a new one, it seems like no one else has the initiative to. I'm also on all the time, and life isn't too busy atm, so it would work out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll get an admin to change ownership.

 

[Jiggly]

Apparantly I'm OP now, kind of busy right now, will update in 4 hours!!! :D


Lets talk about the Zero Suit Samus MU, I will also put in my input at that time :D

 

[Codaption]

ZSS....Basically Brawl Mk but not nearly as good.

We have a number of advantages on her that I can come up with off the top of my head. We can duck under most of her moveset and string attacks on her with ease. Plus, while her recovery isn't particularly gimpable, it IS a little weak in terms of distance. Get her far enough offstage and it'll be tough for her to make it back. She can kill us a little earlier, but at the same time she can't rack up damage on us that easily.

Of course, she also has a projectile, and a set of fast aerials with decent range that could potentially beat ours (unsure on that point). So there's that.

Admittedly I'm not particularly experienced in matchup discussion, so I'm probably missing something important that cripples our ability to fight ZSS. But judging JUST from just what I have listed here, I'd clock it at around 60:40 in our favor, maybe 55:45.

Please call me out if I'm an idiot.

 

[CHOVI]

ZSS is SOOO annoying to fight against. You have to be really careful against her paralyzer gun (or whatever it's called) lest you get in a bad situation. Up B isn't very dangerous in this matchup because it is easily avoidable; however, she still has other tools. If you compromise yourself too much and try to gimp her, you can get Down B spiked, which is not nice. Also, she can space herself in the air with her whip, which while not strong, is a pretty safe move against us due to it's good range.
IDK, this matchup just seems a little hard to me; however, ZSS is an easy target and I do believe she's slower than us in the air, plus her recovery kind of sucks.
I'd say it is a 60:40 for ZSS because we need to play very patiently to win.

 

[Envioux]

The matchup is so-so, I haven't played against any notable ZSS players but most ZSS players I face loathe fighting me on Kongo64. The slope on the stage completely dodges a lot of her moves when we duck on that, forcing a dash attack or aerial approach which we can punish. As long as you aren't caught on the top platforms, you won't die easily. I suggest always banning Duck Hunt against her, because her side smash and uair/up+b will kill us very early.

As for character specific stuff, you need to be very patient and mix up between power shielding and ducking under the paralyzer. I think the best bet is to condition ZSS into playing the spacing game with you, then bait out punishes with empty hops. Her grab is also really scary, so be careful of this. I'd say it's 60:40 in the favor of ZSS, it's possible, but difficult.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey Jiggly mains, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Jigglypuff MU so any input would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ypuff-ness-charizard-3-16-3-23.369356/page-14

Just no singing.

 

[Desu~]

People seem to forget that Jigglypuff evades most of ZSS's moveset by crouching.

Except you @ Codaption .
You a cool guy.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

People seem to forget that Jigglypuff evades most of ZSS's moveset by crouching.

Except you @ Codaption .
You a cool guy.

You still have to admit it won't always save her in the end
She is just too dang fast and has that annoying whip.......plus if I am correct I THINK she can still grab you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

More specifically, on normal ground--

Zero Suit Samus - Jab, Dash Attack, F-Tilt (not down-angled), U-Tilt, F-Smash, Standing Grab (must grab at the last 1/3rd of the whip), Dash Grab (will whiff up-close), Neutral-B

This fight is likely hard because she just has better pokes and can reasonably dance around us in the air. I've never played it extensively, myself.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

More specifically, on normal ground--



This fight is likely hard because she just has better pokes and can reasonably dance around us in the air. I've never played it extensively, myself.

How do you know all this? Did you like test with friends?
Btw Can I have the hitbox data/Startup lags on Peach and Kirby's moves?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How do you know all this? Did you like test with friends?
Btw Can I have the hitbox data/Startup lags on Peach and Kirby's moves?

I tested personally in-game.

I just refer to this for frame data--
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[Jiggly]

Hey Jiggly mains, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Jigglypuff MU so any input would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ypuff-ness-charizard-3-16-3-23.369356/page-14

Just no singing.

I was about to like your post, but then, "Just no singing"

 

[Codaption]

People seem to forget that Jigglypuff evades most of ZSS's moveset by crouching.

Except you @ Codaption .
You a cool guy.

D'aww, thanks~

 

[Jiggly]

I think we have a solid 55-45 or maybe 60-40 advantage this MU. WE can duck a BUNCH of ZSS' attacks. Her grab, paralyzer, Fsmash, F tilt, Utilt, Jab, and dash attack. The only problem about this, is that it would force us to play grounded. Or is that a bad thing? I feel like this MU is great because we have a lot of mixups, where ZSS feels pressured by what we do. It's not normal for someone to duck most of your attacks, so it really makes ZSS players think before they move. She has quick aerials tho, and that can be troublesome. As in almost all matchups, don't stay right above ZSS, because her UAir is amazing in range and the kill power on it is decent. Also, ZSS isn't too hard to gimp with nair, as you can intercept a side b recovery pretty easily, or you can intercept her up b, which isn't a great recovery move in the first place. I feel like in neutral puff also has the upper hand, as ZSS doesn't have the best approaches anymore. Although if ZSS can get a whip or paralyser in the air, she will go HAM. I think that ZSS is limited in what she can do, and is at the whim of puff's mixups, but also has good options still.

 

[CHOVI]

I understand that we can duck a lot of things, but not the grab (dash grab (?)) so I still think it's quite troublesome to stay in the ground.

 

[LightningLuxray]

ZSS's neutral and side specials are really annoying. While it's hard for her to hit use with aerials on the ground they can easily go head-to-head with ours in the air. Her recovery is horizontally long-reaching too, as she can use her second jump + down B + Side B to go quite far. Also while crouching can definitely be effective, it severely limits our movement options and forces us to the ground.

We still can avoid a good portion of her moveset with crouching though. Our aerials still have a lot of combo potential against her, and we can carry her offstage vertically with a well-timed Nair or even Dair, which can make getting back up hard. I also find it's a lot harder for ZSS to combo us due to our light weight, though I guess she can kill us earlier too.

Overall while I feel ZSS is forced on the defensive / has to "react" to our movements, she has all the tools to do so effectively.

I'd give it a 55-45 or 60-40 to ZSS.

 

[Codaption]

Unfortunately, crouch does severely limit our movement options. This is bad. That being said, it's not like we can't do anything at all while crouching- side special and grab are both laggy, and we can easily shield the whip (or dodge the grab) if we see it coming. We also have dtilt...while a bit laggy, it's a semi-spike, and a decently powerful one at that. (EDIT: We also have the crouch-to-rest punish! That's definitely a game-changer in this matchup.)

Our light weight definitely is more of a blessing than a curse in this matchup. It doesn't matter that we die a little earlier, because ZSS can barely kill as it is. Her ko ability comes almost entirely from her ability to rack up damage, because she doesn't have any finishers powerful enough to do the job on their own. The fact that we're so hard to combo makes it so ZSS has a very hard time getting us to kill percent. Meanwhile, it's the opposite for us, as ZSS is vulnerable to both combos AND being launched.

On the flip side, Jigglypuff can't do too much to Sammy in an edgeguard situation due to her damaging recovery options. Dspecial shouldn't really be hitting us too often (it's slower than the whip), but it forces us to dodge and potentially miss an opportunity. Boost Kick (Uspecial) is a scary option to hit get by, and we can't possibly cover it from above. Fortunately it's not an outstanding vertical recovery, but it's still an issue for (the rare occasion) when she recovers low. When WE'RE offstage, we have to worry about the paralyzed and, again, Dspecial. Not to mention her aerials that outrange ours.

Id say Zero has a better time in neutral, but a worse time in advantage due to the aforementioned combo-and-ko issues she has against us. We have a harder time breaking her edgeguard than she does ours when she recovers low, but she isn't too good at that with her Boost Kick. Combined with her fallspeed and our ability to stay offstage for long periods of time, we can pretty much just force her to have an aerial battle that interrupts her recovery.

Overall..it's tough. We beat her when we can get the advantage for sure, but her better neutral makes it so we can't always get that advantage. I'm honestly seeing it either way right now.

 

[Envioux]

I notice that you guys keep bringing up the fact that we can crouch under a lot of her moveset. While that's good to know, I feel like this isn't as big of a deal as it seems to be, because a good player will condition us to crouch and bait us accordingly, making it sort of a moot point. The following moves will hit us during our crouch: dash attack, a spaced grab, side b, a well spaced down b, down tilt, down smash, and finally, up smash (when we are closer to them it will draw us in even if crouched). That's more than enough options to keep us from crouching too much, and we don't want to condition ourselves by thinking "oh I can crouch most of the moveset, it's not a big deal." Besides, the most we can do while crouching is dtilt or rest. Rest is the most important thing here, because if you can crouch a fsmash (this is VERY important) you can get a free rest punish.

The above counter point to crouch, coupled with the fact that we get killed early (especially on low ceiling/side blast zone stages like halberd, lylat, duck hunt for example) still makes me a firm believer ZSS has the advantage with this match up. She has tools to keep us out, the spacing to beat out our aerials, and can kill us quick and easy. People say our lightweight keeps us out of combos, but she can string at least two uairs on us after a grab and they hit pretty hard. I still say 60:40 ZSS.

 

[Jiggly]

I notice that you guys keep bringing up the fact that we can crouch under a lot of her moveset. While that's good to know, I feel like this isn't as big of a deal as it seems to be, because a good player will condition us to crouch and bait us accordingly, making it sort of a moot point. The following moves will hit us during our crouch: dash attack, a spaced grab, side b, a well spaced down b, down tilt, down smash, and finally, up smash (when we are closer to them it will draw us in even if crouched). That's more than enough options to keep us from crouching too much, and we don't want to condition ourselves by thinking "oh I can crouch most of the moveset, it's not a big deal." Besides, the most we can do while crouching is dtilt or rest. Rest is the most important thing here, because if you can crouch a fsmash (this is VERY important) you can get a free rest punish.

The above counter point to crouch, coupled with the fact that we get killed early (especially on low ceiling/side blast zone stages like halberd, lylat, duck hunt for example) still makes me a firm believer ZSS has the advantage with this match up. She has tools to keep us out, the spacing to beat out our aerials, and can kill us quick and easy. People say our lightweight keeps us out of combos, but she can string at least two uairs on us after a grab and they hit pretty hard. I still say 60:40 ZSS.

1. Dash attack doesn't hit when crouched. It goes right over our heads, and we get a free rest.
2. A good puff knows when to crouch. We aren't going to crouch when a ZSS is right in front of us. D smash isn't gonna happen, neither is U-smash, as they have to be pretty close. Maybe D-tilt at some times, but d tilt isn't all too great because it doesn't kill until percents where we won't live to, and it doesn't have any combo potential. D tilt gets predictable too, so if it works once, it won't happen later. Crouch shouldn't be abused, and no puff should ever put themselves in that predicament.
3. Double up air doesn't work after 20% if DI'd properly, and no followups after 50%. Grabs aren't that great for her this MU, and that's giving up her greatest flow to her aerial game, which is her only saving grace this MU.

 

[Envioux]

1. Dash attack doesn't hit when crouched. It goes right over our heads, and we get a free rest.
2. A good puff knows when to crouch. We aren't going to crouch when a ZSS is right in front of us. D smash isn't gonna happen, neither is U-smash, as they have to be pretty close. Maybe D-tilt at some times, but d tilt isn't all too great because it doesn't kill until percents where we won't live to, and it doesn't have any combo potential. D tilt gets predictable too, so if it works once, it won't happen later. Crouch shouldn't be abused, and no puff should ever put themselves in that predicament.
3. Double up air doesn't work after 20% if DI'd properly, and no followups after 50%. Grabs aren't that great for her this MU, and that's giving up her greatest flow to her aerial game, which is her only saving grace this MU.

@ point 1: I was just going based on memory where I recall it hitting me, but that was on Kongo so it might have been stage shenanigans, i don't remember it clearly. i'll take your word for it though.

@ point 2: I agree, crouch shouldn't be abused, and that's why I don't think that crouch makes the matchup any less different. It's nice to know we have the option, but that's about all. I know it's highly unlikely we're gonna be close enough to get hit by usmash/dsmash while crouched, but I was just noting the moves that can hit us while crouched.

@point 3: I was probably just DI-ing incorrectly since I usually get hit by two under 50% if I'm grabbed. I haven't played many ZSS players so yeah. My points were based on the few matches against her that I have played.

 

[Codaption]

Crouch is definitely not an amazing option, nor is it game-changing. It's still an option nonetheless. The only REAL reason to use it is the rest punish, but if it gets us the kill it gets us the kill.

 

[Jiggly]

Crouch is definitely not an amazing option, nor is it game-changing. It's still an option nonetheless. The only REAL reason to use it is the rest punish, but if it gets us the kill it gets us the kill.

How is crouch not an amazing option when it defeats a bunch of her moves, including the move that flows into her only advantage spot? Saying crouch isn't amazing is funny when we can suddenly rest for free. If a character can do something to dodge 1/2 of another character's moves, it's a great option.

 

[Codaption]

How is crouch not an amazing option when it defeats a bunch of her moves, including the move that flows into her only advantage spot? Saying crouch isn't amazing is funny when we can suddenly rest for free. If a character can do something to dodge 1/2 of another character's moves, it's a great option.

You're forgetting the other half of her moves

In all seriousness though, staying in crouch is extremely limiting for us, not to mention it's easy to overdue it and get punished for it. It's a great kill option, but is it good enough to overcome both of these glaring flaws?

 

[Jiggly]

You're forgetting the other half of her moves

In all seriousness though, staying in crouch is extremely limiting for us, not to mention it's easy to overdue it and get punished for it. It's a great kill option, but is it good enough to overcome both of these glaring flaws?

You can do everything out of crouch you could do standing. It isn't really punishable. I don't understand the "flaws".

 

[Codaption]

You can do everything out of crouch you could do standing. It isn't really punishable. I don't understand the "flaws".

We can't do much while standing, either. The main issue is that we're confined to the ground.

It's punishable if you become too reliant on it, which is a very thin line to tread.

 

[Jiggly]

We can't do much while standing, either. The main issue is that we're confined to the ground.

It's punishable if you become too reliant on it, which is a very thin line to tread.

Well the point is to not be reliant on it. It is a dodging option that can set up for kills. You can easily get a SH nair/fair out of crouch, so there really isn't any downfall.


Also everyone is saying they think ZSS has the upper hand, can someone explain why? It seems like her large hitboxes in her aerials are nice, but with everything else we have over her, it doesn't seem like that big of an advantage.

 

[CHOVI]

Well the point is to not be reliant on it. It is a dodging option that can set up for kills. You can easily get a SH nair/fair out of crouch, so there really isn't any downfall.


Also everyone is saying they think ZSS has the upper hand, can someone explain why? It seems like her large hitboxes in her aerials are nice, but with everything else we have over her, it doesn't seem like that big of an advantage.

I find her difficult to gimp, and she's faster than us, has nice combos, and can punish us easily if we're not careful.

 

[Jiggly]

I find her difficult to gimp, and she's faster than us, has nice combos, and can punish us easily if we're not careful.

Gimping isn't too hard honestly, her down b is easy to intercept if you are always at a 35-40 degree angle from her (as you should). Her side b is a little harder, but isn't impossible, I do it often. Her up b is trash, mediocre vertical recovery and is easy to intercept. She is faster than us, which can be troublesome, but 90% of the cast is faster than us, we make up for it in air mobility and prowess. He combos are good, but not on puff. At 50% all combos are gone, and she has to rely on her speed it seems. She owns the neutral until mid percents. Once you get to mid percents, it's all puff from then on. Our dash attack beats her paralyzer and side b, so being grounded isn't even that much of a problem honestly in a lot of situations. Our mediocre ground game, actually is really good. Dash attack out of crouch isn't that hard either, so we have decent setups out of crouch. It seems we are both good in the air, but we have almost everything else better, or am I missing something?

And of course, if we aren't careful we are punished, but that's for every matchup. It seems we have a better punish game anyways with ducking and rest then she does with possible crouch mess-ups.