Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[SmashGamer112]

While I do agree with this, I think this matchup is already painful enough with two-stock, since we can easily get into an uphill battle and Sonic can sometimes time us out if needed unless our punish game is exactly on spot. I guess it is a matter of preference, but I think since we're very unlikely to make any comebacks, 2-stock is ideal for this matchup.

Yeah, it seems to just make it more painful lol.

I'm fairly confident in saying that Jiggs does better with 3 stocks than 2 in general, due to Rest alone. With two stocks, you simply cannot be aggressive with Rest besides in specific circumstances: early Rests to build damage are good, killing Rests when you're in an obvious lead and not at kill% are good. But other than this you have no buffer to play with, since a whiff and punish can easily force you into an uphill second stock where the opponent has Rage, and a whiff on second stock can cost you the game. With three stocks you have room to experiment, more opportunities to go for Rests while at low percents, trading Rests for punishes is more favorable to Jiggs, and you can always switch to play more patiently if you get punished badly. We also don't *really* have guaranteed Rest setups, so a lot of hits are OoS punishes and yomi, which are inherently risky.

While it isn't exactly the same, you can look at how quickly Melee stocks are gone and think about how much riskier pulling off Rests would be if there were only two stocks, no jab-reset Rest and no upthrow Rest. There would be essentially zero room for error, and that's sort of an exaggeration of the predicament Jiggs has with two-stock games here.

Yeah I guess it leaves more room for error and you can comeback, but what do you think about sonic?

 

[drakeirving]

Oh yeah against Sonic in particular I'd probably agree that Sonic has an easier time getting a lead with three stocks. Rests are pretty hard against Sonic regardless.

 

[Desu~]

Could we please stop spouting bull**** like "Jiggs-X MU is so hard to play against. Too painful to deal with" and still slap a near-even MU to everything?

This is one of the major thing that keeps the boards from growing.

 

[SmashGamer112]

Could we please stop spouting bull**** like "Jiggs-X MU is so hard to play against. Too painful to deal with" and still slap a near-even MU to everything?

This is one of the major thing that keeps the boards from growing.

Calm down there, many people have came to agree on how this matchup works, you may not like that but it's true.

 

[CHOVI]

Could we please stop spouting bull**** like "Jiggs-X MU is so hard to play against. Too painful to deal with" and still slap a near-even MU to everything?

This is one of the major thing that keeps the boards from growing.

Sonic IS annoying to fight though. What did you expect? Jigglypuff is a character with poor approach options, so obviously the matchups are going to be sort of polarizing.

 

[Codaption]

Could we please stop spouting bull**** like "Jiggs-X MU is so hard to play against. Too painful to deal with" and still slap a near-even MU to everything?

This is one of the major thing that keeps the boards from growing.

I've hung around the matchup boards for several different characters, most matchups rarely go outside 60:40. The reason a near-even matchup gets passed around so much is because that's what most matchups are, especially in a game as balanced as this one.

In any case, both sides are agreeing the matchup is painful for their characters. Chances are it's not going to swing too much in either direction.

 

[Desu~]

Well hey, sorry for the radical comment here.

My point by saying this is that in retrospective, a lot of the MU descriptions up until now should be heavily revised as I believe it does not stay true to what the actual MU would be.

Im sorry, but as it is of right now, I feel like all we did was to spread some hope to the puff boards by spreading (not necessarily) false conclusion to the MU.

I believe it would be wise for all of us to study once again every MU we did as of before and give a much objective answer based on much more developped knowledge of each character.

But what would be a good example of this? We should go back to Luigi.
From this one thing, the Puff MU can be potentially crumbled. And it's something we actually managed to disregard. Including myself.

We gave it a 60:40 to puff's advantage merely due to his "lack" of recovery, and yet there were many issues regarding his combo potential.

Luigi can true combo his down throw into a rising cyclone and KOs puff mad early at ∼70-80%.

Making up MUs purely by speculation of one's moveset is absolutely not how it should be. What's the point of saying it's an incredibly hard MU if you're gonna put a near-even conclusion?

 

[Codaption]

Well hey, sorry for the radical comment here.

My point by saying this is that in retrospective, a lot of the MU descriptions up until now should be heavily revised as I believe it does not stay true to what the actual MU would be.

Im sorry, but as it is of right now, I feel like all we did was to spread some hope to the puff boards by spreading (not necessarily) false conclusion to the MU.

I believe it would be wise for all of us to study once again every MU we did as of before and give a much objective answer based on much more developped knowledge of each character.

But what would be a good example of this? We should go back to Luigi.
From this one thing, the Puff MU can be potentially crumbled. And it's something we actually managed to disregard. Including myself.

We gave it a 60:40 to puff's advantage merely due to his "lack" of recovery, and yet there were many issues regarding his combo potential.

Luigi can true combo his down throw into a rising cyclone and KOs puff mad early at ∼70-80%.

Making up MUs purely by speculation of one's moveset is absolutely not how it should be. What's the point of saying it's an incredibly hard MU if you're gonna put a near-even conclusion?

Chances are that we're going to go through the matchups multiple times, as most boards opt to do. Of course, that's definitely a good point; something like that is DEFINITELY not something that should be overlooked, especially against a character so common in tournaments.

Hanging out at the Greninja boards, I've seen that they've actually stopped using matchup ratios, due to the game still being relatively new and feeling that general advice on what to do in each matchup is more important. Maybe we could try out something like that, and come back to actual ratios when we have more in the meta and our knowledge of the game to go on?

 

[Desu~]

Hanging out at the Greninja boards, I've seen that they've actually stopped using matchup ratios, due to the game still being relatively new and feeling that general advice on what to do in each matchup is more important. Maybe we could try out something like that, and come back to actual ratios when we have more in the meta and our knowledge of the game to go on?

I would LOVE to hear more about this.

 

[Codaption]

Honestly, it might be best to check over there and ask yourself. I'm not very good at explaining things, so I might have missed something.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey puffballs the Greninja boards are going to discuss you guys: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ddy-shulk-jigglypuff-5-11-5-18.369356/page-20

Like Codaption mentioned, we're focusing more on the analysis of the MU and less on who wins. It was actually my suggestion to do that and since it was brought up, I'm going to explain why.

This game is very young and there's also patches happening through its lifespan that can really change how the MUs work. Focusing on the "who wins" is not very productive because that's something that can very easily change over time due to patches and the meta advancing.

As such, focusing on analyzing the MU itself and how the character should deal with the opposing character is much more valuable because not only does it allow for a more in-depth discussion, it's much more productive to helping players both old and new to understand better how to do against that particular foe, especially if they happen to struggle against them.

We do still use ratios though, they just take the backseat to the overall analysis of how Greninja should play in the MU or what he has to watch out for.

 

[Codaption]

Oh, wow. What impeccable timing, Moon.

Anyway...yeah. What he said ^^^^^^^^

 

[FullMoon]

Of course my timing was on point, I'm a ninja after all.

 

[Codaption]

Pfffffft. That was wonderful, Moon, I actually got a good laugh from that one.

Thank you for the better explanation on the system in the Greninja boards, I couldn't have done it better myself. (I DIDN'T do it better myself, in fact, but that's beside the point.)

 

[Jiggly]

Well hey, sorry for the radical comment here.

My point by saying this is that in retrospective, a lot of the MU descriptions up until now should be heavily revised as I believe it does not stay true to what the actual MU would be.

Im sorry, but as it is of right now, I feel like all we did was to spread some hope to the puff boards by spreading (not necessarily) false conclusion to the MU.

I believe it would be wise for all of us to study once again every MU we did as of before and give a much objective answer based on much more developped knowledge of each character.

But what would be a good example of this? We should go back to Luigi.
From this one thing, the Puff MU can be potentially crumbled. And it's something we actually managed to disregard. Including myself.

We gave it a 60:40 to puff's advantage merely due to his "lack" of recovery, and yet there were many issues regarding his combo potential.

Luigi can true combo his down throw into a rising cyclone and KOs puff mad early at ∼70-80%.

Making up MUs purely by speculation of one's moveset is absolutely not how it should be. What's the point of saying it's an incredibly hard MU if you're gonna put a near-even conclusion?

The thing about cyclone is you can spam di down, and get out due to light weight. Also, the percentages are very specific, anything higher than 75% can be DI'd and air dodged. His down throw combos aren't rewarding, as its followups arent as great on puff. Puff's approaches are great, as luigi has a hard time beating out her range and priority. His one projectile is really bad against puff as well. Also, his recovery is easily caught by puff. One of the other main reasons we found it to our advantage is the fact that luigi has no traction. We can play super aggressively, and not worry because if our aerials are shielded, luigi will slide too far away to get a punish.

Also, idk what you mean that puff's approach options are bad, she has some of the best approaches in the game imo.

 

[CHOVI]

The thing about cyclone is you can spam di down, and get out due to light weight. Also, the percentages are very specific, anything higher than 75% can be DI'd and air dodged. His down throw combos aren't rewarding, as its followups arent as great on puff. Puff's approaches are great, as luigi has a hard time beating out her range and priority. His one projectile is really bad against puff as well. Also, his recovery is easily caught by puff. One of the other main reasons we found it to our advantage is the fact that luigi has no traction. We can play super aggressively, and not worry because if our aerials are shielded, luigi will slide too far away to get a punish.

Also, idk what you mean that puff's approach options are bad, she has some of the best approaches in the game imo.

Luigi does have amazing recovery with tornado mashing though.

 

[Jiggly]

Luigi does have amazing recovery with tornado mashing though.

Sweetspot Nair beats tornado

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I sincerely doubt Jiggs approach is one of the best, far from it IMO
Low ranged attacks, no projectile or disjoints.
All she has is her ariels, but I will have to admit even they can only go so far.

It does suck she still has basically all the flaws she had in brawl, which are significant.
She may be better, but overtime.........I do kinda see her starting to do worse unless she has a bunch of AT and stuff.
It is very early into the game so......only time will tell

 

[Codaption]

I sincerely doubt Jiggs approach is one of the best, far from it IMO
Low ranged attacks, no projectile or disjoints.
All she has is her ariels, but I will have to admit even they can only go so far.

It does suck she still has basically all the flaws she had in brawl, which are significant.
She may be better, but overtime.........I do kinda see her starting to do worse unless she has a bunch of AT and stuff.
It is very early into the game so......only time will tell

-Her attacks in general have lowish range, but her aerials are definitely much better in the regard. In any case, "no" disjoint is stretching it when we have tools like Fair and Bair in our kit.
-Aerials have fantastic effective range in conjunction with our air control.
-Her flaws in Brawl were that she was basically still Melee Puff; the meta changed drastically around her and she failed to change with it. Her combos couldn't work properly, her edgeguarding was weakened, and her absolute best move was torn apart and given a flower to compensate. This has been fixed in smash 4, with her Bair changing from a WoP to a devastating kill move, and Rest being returned to power reminiscent of at least Smash 64. She still has her GENERAL flaws, such as light weight and poor ground game, but these are characteristic of Puff and changing these instead of improving upon her strengths is just going to turn her into something else entirely.

her approach options are definitely a far cry from being the best in the game, though....frankly, they're mediocre at best, and really they always have been. We're a defensive character, we want them to try to come to us instead of jumping into the action.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm gonna be doing a lot of editing to the OP tomorrow, including the sonic MU, which was 45:55, but for now lets move on to Pikachu! After that we will revisit the Diddy matchup I think, as I and a few others believe we might now have an advantage since his Up air was the biggest issue.

So pika thoughts? And do you believe we should revisit diddy?

 

[C0rvus]

I play against my brother's secondary Pikachu (which admittedly isn't amazing but then again, I'm not either) and on paper, the match-up seems very bad; Pikachu has very good, very flexible recovery, can play keep-away with thunder jolt and his superior speed, and can combo Jigglypuff surprisingly well. It's definitely a losing matchup in my opinion. Pikachu is simply a better character, he's fast and safe, and sets up his vortex that can be very hard to get out of.

We can take advantage of his lack of killing power and light weight in the ways you may expect. His safety makes it hard to punish with Rest, but if you can find holes in your opponent's pressure, by all means go for it. Since his moves have no range, he will be very close to you during strings, and it's possible you may be able to get a Rest out of shield that can easily even the odds. Quick Attack is very safe, but I think nair can clank with it, if not beat it. I need to actually test this out... x_x

Pikachu will likely be looking for grabs, shooting thunder jolts off in neutral and chasing them if you shield, or just Quick Attacking into you followed by crossup up tilt into big damage at low percent. It's easy to get stuck in the blender if you get opened up, so maybe stay airborne? I'm still trying to figure this out myself. Nair and fair beat his projectiles, so patient play is possible. It's not like Toon Link, where you basically need to approach.

This is just my rambling thoughts thus far. I obviously have a lot to learn about the Pika v Jiggs MU, but it doesn't seem very good. Doable? Probably.

 

[Hoenn]

pikachu can duck under puff's sh aerials (not if they are delayed), so pikachu can box out puff VERY easily by just dtilting

Pikachu can also easily camp puff with jolts and escape easily.

I used to hate this mu with a passion, but i usually destroy like every puff i play now.
Dtilt alone destroys puff

Pikachu has the ability to land very easily and is able to juggle puff very hard. I am no puff main and I have only played a handful of actual puff players, but I think the MU is pretty bad for puff

 

[CHOVI]

I think nair beats thunder jolts so it's not that big of a problem IMO. IDK, however, if we beat custom thunder wave (don't remember), and it's pretty annoying.
I don't think this MU is too difficult. Pikachu does seem to have a slight advantage over us though, with decent kill power and amazing speed and combos. However, if we can correctly read thunder, we have enough time to fastfall into a rest if we're close, so that's something cool. Also, we can avoid most of his combos for being Jigglypuff. I don't think he can camp us out too well; Pikachu doesn't really have that good of a projectile. Dtilt IS annoying and IDK what our best option is there :/, I guess something like a delayed nair can work, maybe even a grounded pound if there's enough time.
I'd say the MU is something like 60:40 in Pika's advantage.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, nair beats custom thunder jolt, and it covers less distance. I personally find up tilt to be very hard to deal with. It's very big with little startup or cooldown, and it combos into itself and into up air, etc. It also covers aerial approaches. Very strong move in this MU. And yes, if they miss Thunder and it hits him, that's a pretty free back air or rest.

 

[Codaption]

I won't be talking much about this due to not having any real experience in the mu, but I will say that we can easily get around thunder jolt. It's a projectile that travels along the ground trying to hit a balloon, for pete's sake.

 

[Hoenn]

I will still say that I think dtilt is very hard for puff to deal with
Plus pikachu is extremely good at juggling and puff has very slow falling speed and is weak from below.
Pikachu can juggle with Uairs and fairs and puff can't challenge it, she just has to somehow find a way to reset neutral... Just to struggle with pika's ground game again, even after the work she has to put in

 

[Envioux]

I don't know too much about the matchup because no one I know uses Pikachu. However, I doubt Pikachu can keep us in utilt/uair strings for long at all, and the argument of his neutral and d-tilt isn't great because we're Jigglypuff. Spam neutral B all you want, we can fly. If d-tilt is his best option against us, we're not going to let him abuse it. The only real annoying thing I can see is quick attack spam and even then, I'm sure our nair can punish that. I can't speak further upon the topic without actually playing a Pikachu.

 

[Codaption]

Utilt strings are easy for us, I'd think. Uair, on the other hand, can bounce us up like the little ball we are. It doesn't matter that it's not guaranteed when our fast-fall is most other characters' normal fall speed and our Dair has disjoint comparable to an insect. We can't really do anything to get around Uair other than go for the ledge or try to juke them out.

 

[RunawayPanda]

<- From Pikachu forums

I've only played a few good puffs so I'll help how I can.
I notice someone else already answered, but I will try to add to it.

Make sure to slow the game down, but do not allow pikachu to camp out with t jolts. If you notice he's throwing out quick attack a lot, make sure to throw out a nice hit box to either trade or beat it out (depends on what part of QA). It is true that pikachu does have some trouble finding that kill move to connect, but I noticed I could kill jiggs extremely early without rage with sweet spot f-smash, so maybe you bait that out.

 

[Vinylic.]

I played plup and he was campy all the way with pikachu alone. I was able to take away a stock, but he was already ahead of me and I got the loss. This was in smashville, so making that choice was a my b, but good to know. If someone asks "wanna just go smashville?", say no and that you're going to strike stages.

Battlefield, Lylat, and Delfino seem like good choices.

Castle Siege might be good too.

 

[Envioux]

I played plup and he was campy all the way with pikachu alone. I was able to take away a stock, but he was already ahead of me and I got the loss. This was in smashville, so making that choice was a my b, but good to know. If someone asks "wanna just go smashville?", say no and that you're going to strike stages.

Battlefield, Lylat, and Delfino seem like good choices.

Castle Siege might be good too.

No no no, never take Pikachu to Lylat ever. Lylat is his zone. He doesn't care about stage tilts because of his amazing recovery unless he screws up the input/angle badly, and he can QAC pretty much anywhere on the stage. Bringing Pikachu to Lylat is like asking him to make a combo vid off you.

 

[Jiggly]

No no no, never take Pikachu to Lylat ever. Lylat is his zone. He doesn't care about stage tilts because of his amazing recovery unless he screws up the input/angle badly, and he can QAC pretty much anywhere on the stage. Bringing Pikachu to Lylat is like asking him to make a combo vid off you.

Also low platforms make for pikachu to start up strings earlier than ever.

 

[Ffamran]

Hello, Jigglypuffs, the Falco boards started their ongoing Jigglypuff matchup discussion and would be thrilled to have some input from the sleepyhead singer. Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...n-39-jigglypuff-award-winning-singers.404448/.

And if you just want to grind out the MU or just have some fun fighting against Falco players, then head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[isaiah :)]

if i may add my input, i hope this doesn't sound bias but i believe pikachu may have a 60:40 over jiggles, his air game is amazing because he has so many lingering hitbox's and he can throw quick UP.airs hitbox's and pikachu can easily dominate ground game spacing his projectiles and QA in neutral as well as a really fast U.tilt that covers most of his body and clashes with strong moves, and pikachu's Dtilt completely spaces out jiggly puff on the ground forcing him to approach from the air where pikachu can drop the lingering fair or any of his other lingering ariels , and most platform stages can be platform camped by pikachu which can beat out jiggles air game. and rest is harder to land on one of the fastest and smallest charcters in the game, so correct me if i'm wrong but this MU is in pikachu's favor at minimum 60:40


p.s. pikachu's biggest issue is kill power however, jiggly puff dies ealier then most characters so pikachu's biggest disadvantage doesn't apply in this match up, this is another reason why it would be 60:40

 

[Jiggly]

Ooh, Nair, Fair, and Dair beat QA. That interesting, you can't really use quick Attack a lot in neutral.hmmm... Also, you guys are saying his tilts beat out puff, but puff's aerials out prioritize. Fair and Dair clash with puff's aerials, but the end time is an easy punish. Thunder Jolt is easily beaten by puff's aerials as well. It seems Pikachu needs to play a punish game to win. Idk, seems like a 50-50 matchup imo, only because of pikachu's quick ground and decent air speed.

 

[Codaption]

The only characters that can really challenge our air game are the ones whose aerials outrange us. Pikachu is not one of those characters.

Rat has a decent air game for sure, but it's still a far cry from our dominance.

 

[Jiggly]

Actually, now that I think about it, I think puff has the slight advantage because of neutral. Neutral is where pikachu normally excels due to good quick moves and a good projectile, but puff beats all of his tools. And since pikachu has troubles killing, it will still be trouble, especially since some of his kill combos wont work anymore. I am now pulling for puff 55-45.

Lets throw down MU ratio, and what we shhould do in neutral to beat him out, and our best stages.

In neutral you have to play aggressive. If you dont, pikachu will try to space you out with thunder jolt and quick attack. Go aggressive, because you can beat these out. When you are in the stock lead though, it may be nice to just camp the timer. He cant approach us if we use nair and fair correctly, so I think forcing him to approach could put him in a bad position

Stages: I would ban lylat and smashville due to QAC off stage shenanigans. Ban FD due to no platforms helping his thunder jolt and QA camping


I would go to BF to stop his down b spike kills, and helps with our combos. Also stops thunder jolt approaches in many occasions.
Delfino is also nice with the water and other stuff.

 

[Codaption]

Well, I mean...we still haven't really figured out anything to beat Dtilt, unless I missed it somehow. Of course, it shouldn't really matter too much considering we're literal balloon animals and shouldn't be on the ground long enough to be inconvenienced by it.

 

[Jiggly]

Well, I mean...we still haven't really figured out anything to beat Dtilt, unless I missed it somehow. Of course, it shouldn't really matter too much considering we're literal balloon animals and shouldn't be on the ground long enough to be inconvenienced by it.

best thing dtilt can follow into is a grab, and with our lightness that isn't the best follow up. Even if dtilt is good, it seems like it's the only thing. It's also only good as a defensive option, and I don't see too many good defensive pikas. Pika seems like a character that is quick and overwhelms the neutral, which I feel like he fails to do in this MU.

 

[isaiah :)]

sad to say pikachu's Upair is amazingly fast and beats out your lingering hitbox's Dtilt and Utilt beat ground game against jiggly puff so again the match up is in pikachu's favor, and sorry to say but i've never had issues killing jiggly puff, i like this match up because kills are easier to get then with most characters plus with pikachu's great spot dodge frame data utilt is almost always connecting if jiggles gets to close with an attack, i don't see how jiggly puff really beat's pikachu unless the pikachu is constantly on the pressure side and even then that's purely based on player play style not frame data of the characters.