Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[CHOVI]

Shouldn't we rediscuss Sonic? I think Reflex is right... Basically, if Sonic's winning by a stock, he's pretty much won the match.

 

[Jiggly]

Shouldn't we rediscuss Sonic? I think Reflex is right... Basically, if Sonic's winning by a stock, he's pretty much won the match.

After ness we will revisit sonic, diddy, and sheik, due to many opinions changing and nerfs and other things. But for now, we shall discuss ness.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I let some of the Ness mains know about this, and some may add their knowledge of the MU soon because I think this is likely to be in their favor.

 

[CHOVI]

Ok so my best sparring buddy is an amazing Ness main so I know the matchup well. The matchup isn't as bad as it sounds on paper. It's important not to get grabbed too much by Ness because he has many followups and bthrow kills really early. Fortunately for us, we can DI away from fair strings, and we can challenge Ness's air game very well. It's important not to airdodge too much, because upair is very lethal and kills us extremely early.
Ness has good air speed so it's important not to recover low lest we get footstooled.
I wouldn't recommend going for too many edgeguards against Ness. Pk Thunder kills us extremely early and it's too much of a risk and does a lot of damage, so even if we plan to tech on the stage to survive, I don't think it's a good idea. If we CAN hit him before he starts pk thunder though, he's pretty much dead.
When Ness uses PK Fire, we can full hop and punish. Even if it hits, it's easy for us to get away from it before he gets anything, so that's nice.
If ness starts pk thunder or pk flash on the ground, it's a free rest.
Now the matchup I think is in Ness's favor, but not as terrible as one would think. Ness has an arsenal of kill moves, but his projectiles don't do much against us (though Pk thunder is annoying when trying to land), and that's a big part of his game. As long as we don't get grabbed, we can win. I'd say it's something like 55:45 in Ness's favor

 

[Codaption]

Ness....interesting one, though not one I know well. I'll wait to comment on things that get brought up in the discussion.

One thing I want to cover for now: We can break Pk Thunder to get the gimp really easy if done right, I believe... but this does NOT mean we can edgeguard him easily at all. You have to make him use his double jump first, and with a good set of aerials and a great airdodge it's not gonna be easy to get him away from the ledge again after he uses it (double jump-> instant airdodge is a pretty good tactic in of itself). If we can figure out ways to break THAT easily, then we'll be getting somewhere.

PK Fire is also not very good against us (or in general imo), as we can DI out of it before they can get the grab followup real easy. Most Ness players won't use it nearly often enough for it to be a major factor in the discussion, but it's nice.

 

[Luco]

I would give you guys a write up now but it's 2AM in the morning and I need sleep. I personally think (you might hate me for this) this is one of Ness' best MUs, because we do everything Jiggs does in the air better against her and kill so, so early with everything - Bair, Bthrow, Uair, Nair, Dsmash, hell even Utilt if we get it off.

PK Fire isn't too useful though, as you mentioned you DI out of it very easily. PKT is harder because we can angle PKT around jigs and you fall SO SLOWLY so even though your attacks can break it we're normally safe even if we don't hit and can even go for another attempt. Also like, nothing you do is safe on shield against us, though granted if you get a pound off then we're a bit reluctant to use shield anyway. Honestly I find the scariest part about this MU is when jiggs is on the ground, ironically.

I won't go too much into the rest now because I'm so tired but I wanted to give a bit of justification for what I think. I've been out of the offline scene for over 6 months though so the other Ness mains' input may have more relevance here.

 

[Codaption]

I have heard that Ness doesn't really have much of a ground game outside of grabs/Dash Attack, so that's good at least for us- we don't get entirely trashed there like we normally do, though saying our ground game is better is still probably a stretch.

Honestly, Ness is like us in that he does better in the air, which means that both at least have a fair chance in both domains. I wouldn't really say Ness does EVERYTHING better in the air than Jiggs, though he does have a fantastic set of aerials. Puff isn't good just because of hers, but moreso due to her air mobility- Ness is no slouch in that regard, either, but he can't really match our multiple jumps and ability to weave in and out. Of course, his aerials are still easily just as good, probably BETTER than ours, so we have to be careful.

PK Thunder is probably going to be a scary move in general- it can be used to juggle us for eons, and if used right it might be able to be used to edgeguard us. Of course, if messed up they're suddenly very punishable- probably not the best option, but still one nonetheless. If anyone could give some insight on how well PK thunder works against us as an edgeguarding tool, that'd be great.

 

[CHOVI]

I have heard that Ness doesn't really have much of a ground game outside of grabs/Dash Attack, so that's good at least for us- we don't get entirely trashed there like we normally do, though saying our ground game is better is still probably a stretch.

Honestly, Ness is like us in that he does better in the air, which means that both at least have a fair chance in both domains. I wouldn't really say Ness does EVERYTHING better in the air than Jiggs, though he does have a fantastic set of aerials. Puff isn't good just because of hers, but moreso due to her air mobility- Ness is no slouch in that regard, either, but he can't really match our multiple jumps and ability to weave in and out. Of course, his aerials are still easily just as good, probably BETTER than ours, so we have to be careful.

PK Thunder is probably going to be a scary move in general- it can be used to juggle us for eons, and if used right it might be able to be used to edgeguard us. Of course, if messed up they're suddenly very punishable- probably not the best option, but still one nonetheless. If anyone could give some insight on how well PK thunder works against us as an edgeguarding tool, that'd be great.

There's no way we're getting edgeguarded with PK thunder IMO. The thing is slow as hell and can easily be airdodged, plus we have 5 jumps offstage.

 

[Psymon]

Avoid being grabbed at anything past 100%, as Ness' Back-Throw is ridiculous.

To edge-guard, N-air Ness' double-jump if possible (if they don't air-dodge), then once their only option is to use Up-B, float into the space they'd have to hit themselves with PK Thunder, and they the orb hit you.

There is a more advanced technique of gimping PK Thunder 2, where you let them hit you with it, but you perform stage tech to stay alive. Obviously this is situational, and requires good timing, but it shortens the distance Ness can recover, as he travels less far when hitting something/someone.

 

[drakeirving]

There's no way we're getting edgeguarded with PK thunder IMO. The thing is slow as hell and can easily be airdodged, plus we have 5 jumps offstage.

While edgeguarding isn't too much of a concern, an airdodge will often just have them spin it back around from the bottom and hit you anyway. I haven't really found it too useful to dodge besides when you're in a bad spot to try and cancel it, or if you want more time to get down or something.

 

[Psymon]

Beware of stalling when you're on the ledge as well. If you get hit by a PK fire, you'll be open for a follow-up spike.

Predict air-dodges when Ness is recovering with double-jump. If they do it once, they'll probably do it again, so cover this with N-air or side-B.

Ness has a good weight/fall-speed for a start-combo. From 0%, if you can land a falling U-air, you can follow it up with U-tilt, then N-air. Just make sure you move away as you N-air so you don't get punished. This gives a nice 30% to start the match with. Another two F-airs/F-tilts, and he'll be at Rest percentage (Y)

 

[Luco]

There's no way we're getting edgeguarded with PK thunder IMO. The thing is slow as hell and can easily be airdodged, plus we have 5 jumps offstage.

Edge-guarded is the wrong word to use, because if anything, we're helping you recover if we use PKT (because of the trajectory it takes you when it hits), but AD-ing doesn't generally work because we can loop it back around to hit you as soon as AD is done.

It's true that jiggs' aerial (horizontal) mobility allows her to weave in and out but I'm not sure how she's meant to get in against spaced Fairs and Bairs.

I don't have a lot of time to make a big post (I'm sorry! I'm interested in your thoughts though. Most Ness mains haven't played this MU too much I think), but I'll elaborate on something I mentioned earlier witha link to a very useful thread. http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ Here is like, our godly awesome thread that has kill percents on Bthrow with each character. You want to remember these percents, and Jiggs also gets the full benefit of having numbers from our rage data testing, so feel free to keep those percents in mind too. It helps you out just as much as it helps us. I'll expand on these numbers a bit.

Jiggs dies at 0% rage from the close side, centre and far side of FD at 79%, 108% and 131% respectively. The mean here is around 106%, meaning between 100 and 110 you should really start being careful of the throw. If Ness has rage, these numbers can get reduced to the mid 80's in the worst possible scenario. Because Bthrow is the most consistent kill option in the game (ish), jiggs has to really be careful of it.

Aside from that, Ness kills better than a truck at full speed, and Uair, Bair or even Nair has the potential to kill around 100% or less on Jiggs. This is why I say even air to air is something she really doesn't want to engage in much of the time, though I will say your Bair is quite godly.

 

[Desu~]

The only thing im more concerned about Ness is that he seems to have aerials that actually shut down ours. So basically you're forced to get on ground when you approach him because of his fairs that have ridiculous hurtbox, not to mention that it has almost no end lag at all.

And since that Ness air game is also dangerous when having momentum, Jiggs has a hard time trying to land on stage, so I feel like the best route for recovery is where Ness feels most uncomfortable, and that would be to go all the way offstage low enough for him not to take a risk.

Also, Ness is one of the many characters that totally don't need to approach Jiggs because of his remarquable arsenal. Using Pk thunders when the opponents are knocked off or using a barrage of fairs at the open air to keep them at bay is pretty much all the things a good Ness needs to do in such a situation.

And since Ness is too small, we can't crouch against grab-happy Ness.

Im only putting 60-40 in Ness favor because his recovery is pretty much the only thing holding him back.
But even then it's almost the same case for Luigi. What's even the point of mentioning poor recovery when you yourself have a pretty bad time putting him to this very position?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Seems like Ness has the big advantage especially in the air. He dominates us and his Fair with the long-lasting disjointed range makes it very easy for him to space us. Even if his air mobility isnt incredible, we still cant approach all too well because his ariels are also quick and almost all can KO.
Being above just makes us prone to getting Uaired which is a good KO move and has a weird hitbox as well.
His projectiles are also somewhat useful, maybe not the most dangerous, but still a threat at times.
His grab game is just a beast, that
Bthrow kills jiggs at even mid %s sometimes while we get next to nothing from our grabs.
Ground game is different, Ness's isnt fantastic it seems, but its still better then ours, the disjointed smashes, very quick tilts can still be threatning.

His recovery is the only thing we have going for him, we can edge guard Ness, but you have to be careful and smart because you could end up getting yourself killed if not quick enough or in a bad position.
This is surely one of Ness's easiest MUs im going to assume.

So imo, it may be 65:35
Ness doe a lot of things better then Jiggs.

 

[Codaption]

Yeah, this doesn't look like a very fun time for us. It seems like everyone agrees he breaks us on the ground AND in the air, and that's pretty much a guaranteed bad matchup right there. Not to mention he has some fantastic ko options (wouldn't be surprised to hear them called the best in the game) which don't need setups of any kind, which completely bypasses the upside of our light weight and just leaves us as fodder for his plethora of kill moves.

Though it's probably not our absolute worst matchup, it seems to be up there kinda. It might be prudent to switch Pokémon pull out a secondary for this one.

 

[Desu~]

Yeah, this doesn't look like a very fun time for us.

You really wanna know what's a really fun matchup?

 

[Jiggly]

You really wanna know what's a really fun matchup?

I actually like this MU...

 

[Psymon]

How are you doing this, Jiggly? Are we going through each character one after the other, then revising characters at a later date if techniques are found/patches are made/things are discovered?

 

[MisterDom]

You really wanna know what's a really fun matchup?

Regular link is worse...

 

[Jiggly]

How are you doing this, Jiggly? Are we going through each character one after the other, then revising characters at a later date if techniques are found/patches are made/things are discovered?

We start with the best characters and make our way down the list. We go back if there is general consensus or want to go back.

 

[Codaption]

Regular link is worse...

How so? He's slower in terms of both movement and frame data, and he's also combo meat.

 

[MisterDom]

How so? He's slower in terms of both movement and frame data, and he's also combo meat.

Because his spamming is more efficient and he has better traps imo. He covers more space too.

 

[Desu~]

Then you haven't fought a good TL imo.
TL has, like, way more options then Link would ever dream.
Stuff that I would like to talk about once we get to it.

 

[Psymon]

Back to Ness/on to next character?

 

[MisterDom]

Then you haven't fought a good TL imo.

Not True! I guess it could also be the new update changes to link that I haven't got used to, but Link had been seriously BUFFED.

 

[Codaption]

Link has never been a consistent threat in smash bros. Toon Link, on the other hand....

But I digress. Theres probably plenty more to talk about concerning Ness, so we should get back to him- unless everyone else thinks we're done, of course.

 

[Karsticles]

Hey guys, I just picked up Jiggs yesterday because my other two attempts at finding a main have left me with characters that are crap. I played about 200 FG battles with him, and every matchup felt doable except for Rosalina. I was completely at a loss here, even losing to players that were clearly worse than I. I know you are on Ness right now, but can someone throw a tip or two my way?

 

[Jiggly]

Hey guys, I just picked up Jiggs yesterday because my other two attempts at finding a main have left me with characters that are crap. I played about 200 FG battles with him, and every matchup felt doable except for Rosalina. I was completely at a loss here, even losing to players that were clearly worse than I. I know you are on Ness right now, but can someone throw a tip or two my way?

In the OP you can find Rosa Strategies and tips. Start there, and then after that, ask questions it left unanswered! :D



Also, for the ness MU, I think we may have a negative MU, but not as bad as you guys are really putting it at. I'm seeing a 45-55.

Low percents: DI in if you get grabbed, and Dthrow will send you up, and you can get a jump and get out of there before a uair or nair. We can get out of his combos out of Dthrow easily, and he can't really use his grab efficiently to really make us feel pressured. Only grab he has that is good is Bthrow, and I find that Ness' try for that really hard against puff, cuz they find it as a shortcut, so I like to us that to my advantage and camp out their shield with fair, or do a rising nair, pass through them, let them whiff the grab as you get behind him, and pound him. You either hit him after the grab, or as his shield goes up. Damage, or broken shield. Nair+pound=shieldbreak. Pk Fire isn't a big issue because we can short hop it, and it leaves him too open honestly. The direction it gets thrown at doesn't really make it reliable in this MU. Just make sure you land safely, and it shouldn't be a big issue. Rising aerials on shield are what really help in this MU imo. Hits shield fine, if it hits you can start chains, if hit does hit a shield or there is a spot dodge, you are in a good position to retreat. Also, if he tries to hit you with pk thunder, move towards it and airdodge it. Moving towards it gives you enough time for you airdodge to finish it faster than he can turn it around. Alternatively, you can fair or nair it. This will take care of it, but you need to be a little more careful. Also, if ness is trying to recover with PK thunder, you can just float into the thunder, and it will disappear. You need to hit it head on, or it won't work. If he's low and close to stage, I often just run into PKT2 for the gimp, and then tech the stage. Of course you need to be careful, but due to the freeze effect after hit by an electric move, it's pretty easy to figure out when you're gonna hit the lip/stage. Also, if you haven't checked out Jab to Rest yet, I would. It works on ness up to 61%. This is a kill option, one of the few characters. I find it really nice when ness' try to get aggro with fair or nair. It's done best when he is way too close on shield, then jab, then rest will hit due to his character model not being too far after rest. Yes you could just rest is, but with the low cooldown on a lot of his aerial landings, this is great as a safety measure. It also works well on a shielded dash attack.

Now Ness has crazy aerials, and they do a really good job of locking us out, or killing us early like Uair. He has really good priority and range, and that can make it hard to approach. When he is in the air, we are at a disadvantage, and need to punish when his moves end. I find myself approaching with full hop Dair a lot, due to that ruining sh fair/nair. It is also safe on shield. His bair is pretty slow, but still really good. His spacing is amazing and power is good. He can normally only chain 2 fairs if you DI out, and often you can punish a 3rd fair with Uair.

He is amazing at pushing us out, but we still have a lot of options to deal with him, and he is really easy to gimp 45-55 Ness' favor imo

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

The kirby boards were saying that maybe people who actually go to tournaments and know the MUs and fought some decent characters, should mainly be the ones to give the score or something like that.
It does make sense as sometimes some boards give odd MU ratios that don't even seem to make sense which could prove not useful, especially for those who are new and need knowledge.
If only Hbox was here.....

 

[Jiggly]

The kirby boards were saying that maybe people who actually go to tournaments and know the MUs and fought some decent characters, should mainly be the ones to give the score or something like that.
It does make sense as sometimes some boards give odd MU ratios that don't even seem to make sense which could prove not useful, especially for those who are new and need knowledge.
If only Hbox was here.....

Hbox doesn't even play sm4sh puff correctly. For that info we talk to @ TheReflexWonder

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It can hard to settle on a ratio, considering how the matchup(s) don't always come up too often between especially competent players.

Someone run sets with me at EVO and we'll figure this out together. ;p

 

[Luco]

I think a lack of MU experience is why most of us Ness mains feel uncomfortable talking about this MU.

That being said, pretty sure PKT will catch Jiggs even if you AD it. The turning circle is tighter now than it used to be and even faster. PK Fire just isn't an option for us in this MU, you get out of it too easily and it's punishable. PKT can be gimped in the way you describe, but it's difficult because the first few frames of the bolt are invincible and go through everything now. Getting hit by PKT2 and teching is more reliable but you need to be rather confident in your tech skill.

The jab ---> rest thing is actually really cool but only kills in approximately a 10% range (50% is where rest kills Ness although rage would obviously affect these numbers, so that's decent for you). It's kind of like the situation in that you just need to respect Jiggs for that period of time and then after you can kinda go straight back to walling her out (and Ness can do that even more safely with Jiggs' ground mobility being... Not good).

Idk, as I've mentioned I just don't feel threatened in this MU, but as I've also mentioned I've never faced any higher level jiggs mains. You're probably more qualified to talk about it than we are.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that Jigglypuff has the longest-lasting airdodge in the game (while still only having five frames of vulnerability at the end).

Ness can roll backward and there's very little that Jigglypuff can do about it.

 

[Codaption]

Our airdodge is indeed very solid, although the extra length also means we have to wait longer than any character to act out of it. I'm not really sure having a long airdodge is a good thing overall, but I feel like our physics means it benefits us in particular.

 

[Noa.]

I haven't played this matchup that much. I've only played against Hbox's Jiggs a couple times in tourney. Jiggs is really uncommon.

Ness probably wins this matchup +1 or +2. Our fair is disjointed so it's really useful for beating out Jiggs's aerials. Jiggs's ground game may be stronger than Ness's, but Ness never stays on the ground. Both characters will spend the majority of the time in the air. The biggest problem for jiggs obviously is that she dies so incredibly easy to Ness. Ness is one of the biggest characters at killing in the game. He also has a very small size, so it makes it very difficult to land rest on him. Her weight and floatiness means that aerials will stop comboing out of dthrow earlier than other characters, but she is susceptible to dthrow triple fair at earlier percents. She gets out of pk fire incredibly easy by just jumping out of it which is really nice for her. She doesn't have too much trouble dealing with pk thunder juggles. Three factors determine how susceptible a character is to the juggle; their fall speed, their size, and their aerials. Jiggs is floaty so that doesn't help her. But she's small and her nair and fair come out quickly which makes it easier for her to destroy the head of pk thunder.

When Ness is recovering offstage against Jiggs, it's very difficult for him to make it back if wasn't sent back high. Just bait out the airdodge or fair and hit him with a fair or bair and he's dead. She edge guards him pretty easily. It's a spot that Jiggs does very well in this matchup. I don't have much else to say about this matchup cause I've played it so very little.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Isnt Ness's ground game better then Jiggs(barely, but it still is right?)

 

[Jiggly]

Isnt Ness's ground game better then Jiggs(barely, but it still is right?)

overall it's better, but not in this MU.

 

[Codaption]

Isnt Ness's ground game better then Jiggs(barely, but it still is right?)

Piggybacking off of what @ Jiggly said, just because a character might have a better ____ than another character doesn't mean the other's won't be more effective. We actually have a better air game than Ness overall, it's just that his beats ours in this mu specifically.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

that's

Piggybacking off of what @ Jiggly said, just because a character might have a better ____ than another character doesn't mean the other's won't be more effective. We actually have a better air game than Ness overall, it's just that his beats ours in this mu specifically.

debatable, I mean It seems like Ness's air game is maybe better overall.
He only lacks airspeed in my eyes, though an experienced Ness player would know more.....so eh, I think it could go either way.

 

[drakeirving]

He lacks air speed but has the range to keepaway. In other words, a common case with matchups in this game. Character has crappy air speed, but has aerials with good range and little cooldown, while Jiggs has garbage range, so punishing and getting in is dumb.