Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Man of shame]

don't mean to interrupt but I would like to discuss the MU in the near future.

 

[Jiggly]

don't mean to interrupt but I would like to discuss the MU in the near future.

well, we are mostly covering high tiers atm, but if you ask in the competitive and metagame discussion, we would be happy to chat it up

 

[Man of shame]

well, we are mostly covering high tiers atm, but if you ask in the competitive and metagame discussion, we would be happy to chat it up

thank you for the information

 

[Codaption]

that's

debatable, I mean It seems like Ness's air game is maybe better overall.
He only lacks airspeed in my eyes, though an experienced Ness player would know more.....so eh, I think it could go either way.

I suppose that's true, since our air game hasn't really improved that much like most fighters' have. Range in general is an issue for us, so we can have issues with getting in on people.

That being said, when we DO get in the results can be interesting to see. We have a decent WoP in Fair (though in a game where recovering is fairly easy, that's not much), the 4th strongest Bair in the game, a powerful tool for gimping and damage in Dair, and a quick and decently powerful option in Nair (it's also guarenteed out of Fair until highish percents). We also can use Fair, Uair, and Dair to set up for Rest kills at very low percents. Another important thing to note is that it's not really our aerials that make our air game good, but our air mobility- with some of the highest airspeed in the game and five midair jumps, we can weave around people with ease.

Meanwhile, what do you guys have? A Nair that can interrupt juggles and potentially kill, a.....Bair that is safe on shield and can also kill, a....Uair with huge range that can, again, kill.....A Fair that has practically no lag...a meteor smash in Dair....

.....Eesh. That IS a pretty scary repertoire, isn't it?

 

[Noa.]

Dair is pretty trash. But yeah the rest of our aerials are amazing and really potent. They all each serve a unique purpose as well. Nair is just fast and overall good at beating other aerials because of its speed and hitbox. Fair is disjointed and combos and has a lot of range. Uair for vertical KO's and juggling. Bair for horizontal KOs. All four aerials can be somewhat safe on shield, depending on how you land them on their shield. Fair is usually punished though.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I suppose that's true, since our air game hasn't really improved that much like most fighters' have. Range in general is an issue for us, so we can have issues with getting in on people.

That being said, when we DO get in the results can be interesting to see. We have a decent WoP in Fair (though in a game where recovering is fairly easy, that's not much), the 4th strongest Bair in the game, a powerful tool for gimping and damage in Dair, and a quick and decently powerful option in Nair (it's also guarenteed out of Fair until highish percents). We also can use Fair, Uair, and Dair to set up for Rest kills at very low percents. Another important thing to note is that it's not really our aerials that make our air game good, but our air mobility- with some of the highest airspeed in the game and five midair jumps, we can weave around people with ease.

Meanwhile, what do you guys have? A Nair that can interrupt juggles and potentially kill, a.....Bair that is safe on shield and can also kill, a....Uair with huge range that can, again, kill.....A Fair that has practically no lag...a meteor smash in Dair....

.....Eesh. That IS a pretty scary repertoire, isn't it?

Wait how do you know how strong your Bair is? O.o
I would be interested to see how strong Kirby's is, it almost seems like his and Jigglys Bairs have similar knockback, but maybe thats just the KBG, or.....ours is slightly weaker.

Either way I would so love to know how you figured yours was the 4th strongest.

 

[drakeirving]

Kirby's comes out faster, but doesn't particularly stand out amongst the cast. They're both 13% fresh, but Kirby's bair is 20b/102g at fires at Sakurai angle, while Jiggs' is 30b/120g and fires at 42 degrees. It's a killer. However, Jiggs' bair has a sweetspot and sourspot; the sourspot has no base knockback and kills probably in similar ranges as Kirby's early hit of bair, which might be what you're thinking of.

 

[Jiggly]

We have the 4th strongest Bair in the game.

 

[Desu~]

What's bothering me with dair is that it has this tendency of being really easy to whiff with.

Because really, I love the fact that this move beats spotdodges or any rolls towards you.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Kirby's comes out faster, but doesn't particularly stand out amongst the cast. They're both 13% fresh, but Kirby's bair is 20b/102g at fires at Sakurai angle, while Jiggs' is 30b/120g and fires at 42 degrees. It's a killer. However, Jiggs' bair has a sweetspot and sourspot; the sourspot has no base knockback and kills probably in similar ranges as Kirby's early hit of bair, which might be what you're thinking of.

ooooh... so mainly at mid-high percentages is where its noticable hers is is stronger....never knew it had a sourspot thats news to me.
I need to find the place to see how strong each characters Usmash is O.o

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Jigglypuffs out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Jigglypuff. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Jigglypuff match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/415285/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Codaption]

Was quite a bit less knowledgeable on my last outing to the Rosie boards, might be time to fine-tune my points from way back when. Lead me to the Launch Star!

 

[Brellow]

Colliding with the PK thunder ball is a good way to secure a kill against Ness. If you do it correctly, he'll go into free fall and die. If a Ness sees you approaching him offstage, he may try to fair you. You can shield/grab/punish or do whatever you think is necessary. Its situational so you have to find the right time to attempt it. If you do it incorrectly, you may get hit by PK2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEMjbmNPNmU

 

[Codaption]

Booting Ness offstage without his midair jump leaves him pretty much dead, since pretty much any character can gimp PK Thunder with ease. You can outprioritize the ball with an aerial....or take the ball in the face...heck, you can even just flat-out tank PK Thunder2, and as long as you tech it and they aren't right next to the ledge you're in the clear.

That being said, Ness players know this and will rely on their double jump and potential aerial options (long-lasting airdodge, quick and powerful Nair, etc) to return to the stage. In the end, the weakness of PK Thunder as a recovery isn't something that really affects things as much as it'd seem.

 

[MisterDom]

Should we change characters in this matchup discussion? Not many people are replying to this thread much and I think almost everything has been said about Ness. What do you think Jiggly?

 

[Jiggly]

Should we change characters in this matchup discussion? Not many people are replying to this thread much and I think almost everything has been said about Ness. What do you think Jiggly?

we should. Anyone else have anything to say about the ness MU? Also, it seems people are 40-60 or 45-55. How do you guys stand on it?


Next we will discuss fox.

 

[MisterDom]

we should. Anyone else have anything to say about the ness MU? Also, it seems people are 40-60 or 45-55. How do you guys stand on it?


Next we will discuss fox.

Ooh...

That'll get interesting ^_^

I'd say probably 55-45 in Ness's favor

 

[Codaption]

I'd say 60:40 or 65:35. Getting shut out in the air is very, very bad for us.

 

[Jiggly]

Alright, 60:40 ness favor, I will get to it later this week, my weekend is pretty cramped unexpectedly.


Time for fox! maybe a write up tonight? idk.

 

[DJTengen]

Hello! I saw this thread posted in the Fox forums and thought I'd drop by for a moment.

I haven't faced very many Jiggs, but when I do, I usually have to work for wins. Her aerial mobility is insane and can easily use it to maneuver around Fox, she can crouch under our lasers to make us have an incentive to approach, and can edgeguard us extremely well, especially since her Nair can intercept our Side-B. And on top of all of that, she has rest, so we need to be careful when playing against her. So overall, she has a lot of tools on us.

However, Fox does have tools for Jiggs as well. If she's in the air trying to find an opening, maneuver around us or whatever, Fox can easily chase her down and punish her for landing on the ground to replenish her jumps and can also look for an opening to do an Up-Air, which Jiggs can die extremely early to. And if she's on the ground, it's an even bigger advantage for Fox since he has his amazing speed and Jiggs doesn't have many tools besides SH aerials to combat Fox, and even then Fox has those tools as well, as well as Up-Smash which can also kill Jiggs extremely early if they're not careful. In general, Fox just out-prioritizes her in most cases and can often lead to deaths if they know what they're doing.

Overall, I'd say this is a dead even match-up. Jigglypuff has the mobility to get around Fox and has tools to fight him, especially if we're offstage, but Fox has the speed to chase down Jigglypuff and out-prioritizes her in most ways, from how I've seen it. It's pretty much a battle between who's the smartest player and who knows more about what they're up against. And if the Fox player is knowledgeable in the MU, Jigglypuff will have a bit of a harder time.

50:50, and at worst 45:55, in my opinion at least.

 

[Codaption]

Not gonna give a rating yet, but I will point out a few things.

~We definitely beat Fox offstage- his edgeguarding isn't all that great, so Puff should have a pretty easy time coming back. Fox Illusion is really easy to mess with if you see it coming. Get the timing down and the poor guy'll be recovering straight into a Rest, Bair, Fsmash...pick your poison. If somebody could give thoughts on how we can break Firefox, that'd be superb... I'm thinking Fair could do the trick, particularly if we get him while he's charging, but I'm unsure.
~Our weight and fallspeed make us less subsceptible to ultilt chains (can we Rest him during these?), but at the same time we get cut down hard by Usmash and Uair. We can probably weave around to avoid Uair somewhat, but both are still moves that we need to watch out for.
~Fox kinda controls the pace of the match here, as his speed gives him an easier time approaching and his lasers can help him to camp to an extent (We can't outprioritize them, either, though they're fairly easy to avoid and overall don't impede us. Don't expect him to be very campy, but he can easily try and play patient with us). This also makes it harder for us to stall him out.
-Fall speed means that he dies later from Rest, but we can also combo into it more easily with things like Utilt or Uair.

As far as stages go, I'd personally recommend Dreamland or Battlefield- probably Battlefield, as I'm a bit wary of Fox's ability to chase us and kill us off the top. Don't let his Usmash animation fool you, it clips through the Battlefield platforms but it'll never actually hit. Lylat maybe as well, if we want to really mess with his recovery...thoughts?

 

[DJTengen]

Not gonna give a rating yet, but I will point out a few things.

~We definitely beat Fox offstage- his edgeguarding isn't all that great, so Puff should have a pretty easy time coming back. Fox Illusion is really easy to mess with if you see it coming. Get the timing down and the poor guy'll be recovering straight into a Rest, Bair, Fsmash...pick your poison. If somebody could give thoughts on how we can break Firefox, that'd be superb... I'm thinking Fair could do the trick, particularly if we get him while he's charging, but I'm unsure.
~Our weight and fallspeed make us less subsceptible to ultilt chains (can we Rest him during these?), but at the same time we get cut down hard by Usmash and Uair. We can probably weave around to avoid Uair somewhat, but both are still moves that we need to watch out for.
~Fox kinda controls the pace of the match here, as his speed gives him an easier time approaching and his lasers can help him to camp to an extent (We can't outprioritize them, either, though they're fairly easy to avoid and overall don't impede us. Don't expect him to be very campy, but he can easily try and play patient with us). This also makes it harder for us to stall him out.
-Fall speed means that he dies later from Rest, but we can also combo into it more easily with things like Utilt or Uair.

As far as stages go, I'd personally recommend Dreamland or Battlefield- probably Battlefield, as I'm a bit wary of Fox's ability to chase us and kill us off the top. Don't let his Usmash animation fool you, it clips through the Battlefield platforms but it'll never actually hit. Lylat maybe as well, if we want to really mess with his recovery...thoughts?

Oh yeah, Lylat will definitely mess Fox up if he gets offstage. As for Battlefield, it's not Fox's worst stage by any means since, in my opinion, the platforms are easy to maneuver around and take advantage of with Up Airs if the opponent gets caught on them, especially on the top platform. Also I'm pretty sure either Fair or Bair can either trade or knock Fox out of his Up-B depending on where and how it hits.

 

[Jiggly]

Oh yeah, Lylat will definitely mess Fox up if he gets offstage. As for Battlefield, it's not Fox's worst stage by any means since, in my opinion, the platforms are easy to maneuver around and take advantage of with Up Airs if the opponent gets caught on them, especially on the top platform. Also I'm pretty sure either Fair or Bair can either trade or knock Fox out of his Up-B depending on where and how it hits.

all of puffs aerials can knock fox out of Fire. My favorite is to do the Dair semi spike, so he's too low to recover.

 

[MisterDom]

I'm gonna give my honest opinion and say what actually happens in a match, and not give theory of this matchup. Of course, Jigglypuff doesn't win

Fox is just a GREAT character. I used to think he was the best. I still think he's amazing, and though Inthink Jigglypuff is great as well, Fox is just... Too good.

Fox is among one of the fastest characters in the game, and also has a very good pivot grab. Don't forget to mention his grab combos. His 37% down throw -> fair -> Uair still works on is I believe, and he can kill us pretty early. He usually also can get good punishes becuase of his speed, and successfully bait us to do whatever becuase he can be scary sometimes. Also, are safe on sheild options will still be safe on sheild, but generally not safe because he can run and up smash or dash attack depending on the situation. Sometimes even grabs. His frame data also beats out some of our options that usually work.

I know we're technically great at edge guarding fox, but that's only when he uses up b. It's truly a joy to come up with an edge guard to counter this, but what if he uses side b? We can only punish thiseasily if we're waiting for him to get back on stage, but if we're on stage, he'll just drop down and up b. This isn't as bad in stages like FD and Smashville, but those places can be banned . Though we can intercept his recovery, we can't easily do it if he doesn't need to recover. And let me ask you this: have you played a match IN TOURNAMENT where you edge guarded a fox AND took his stock at least twice in a 2 out of three set, or three times in a 3 out of 5 set assuming it's two stocks? Probably not (though I'm sure some of y'all have. Amateur foxes against good Jigglypuff's am I right?).

However, we do have good stages, but fox does too. We should ban battlefield and Town and City, becuase it's hard to edge guard him there. Also dream land, but if you like dreamland like me, ban battlefield. I just like the wind. Out of my experience, FD, Lylat, sometimes Smashville, and Duck Hunt are our best stages. We wouldn't really like Dream Land, delfino, or halberd. I don't think Castle siege would be too bad, but it should only be a counter pick depending on the fox player.

I know, I know. We can crouch under lasers. We can get an edge guard that takes a fox's stock sometimes. It isnt too hard to combo Fox. There are several times where we can bait fox into a rest setup. He dies earlier to rest (I think). Sometimes we can nair to stop a comb. But in the end, fox just beats are options almost in every way. He takes are stocks much easier, his combos still work on is most of the time. He doesn't have much lag. He's just the better character.

I'm gonna have to give this matchup 35:65. Maybe 40:60.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm gonna give my honest opinion and say what actually happens in a match, and not give theory of this matchup. Of course, Jigglypuff doesn't win

Fox is just a GREAT character. I used to think he was the best. I still think he's amazing, and though Inthink Jigglypuff is great as well, Fox is just... Too good.

Fox is among one of the fastest characters in the game, and also has a very good pivot grab. Don't forget to mention his grab combos. His 37% down throw -> fair -> Uair still works on is I believe, and he can kill us pretty early. He usually also can get good punishes becuase of his speed, and successfully bait us to do whatever becuase he can be scary sometimes. Also, are safe on sheild options will still be safe on sheild, but generally not safe because he can run and up smash or dash attack depending on the situation. Sometimes even grabs. His frame data also beats out some of our options that usually work.

I know we're technically great at edge guarding fox, but that's only when he uses up b. It's truly a joy to come up with an edge guard to counter this, but what if he uses side b? We can only punish thiseasily if we're waiting for him to get back on stage, but if we're on stage, he'll just drop down and up b. This isn't as bad in stages like FD and Smashville, but those places can be banned . Though we can intercept his recovery, we can't easily do it if he doesn't need to recover. And let me ask you this: have you played a match IN TOURNAMENT where you edge guarded a fox AND took his stock at least twice in a 2 out of three set, or three times in a 3 out of 5 set assuming it's two stocks? Probably not (though I'm sure some of y'all have. Amateur foxes against good Jigglypuff's am I right?).

However, we do have good stages, but fox does too. We should ban battlefield and Town and City, becuase it's hard to edge guard him there. Also dream land, but if you like dreamland like me, ban battlefield. I just like the wind. Out of my experience, FD, Lylat, sometimes Smashville, and Duck Hunt are our best stages. We wouldn't really like Dream Land, delfino, or halberd. I don't think Castle siege would be too bad, but it should only be a counter pick depending on the fox player.

I know, I know. We can crouch under lasers. We can get an edge guard that takes a fox's stock sometimes. It isnt too hard to combo Fox. There are several times where we can bait fox into a rest setup. He dies earlier to rest (I think). Sometimes we can nair to stop a comb. But in the end, fox just beats are options almost in every way. He takes are stocks much easier, his combos still work on is most of the time. He doesn't have much lag. He's just the better character.

I'm gonna have to give this matchup 35:65. Maybe 40:60.

I fully disagree.(except for stage options) In the puff skype, this is one of the high tier MUs in which we win. Fox has troubles with shield, just like us. This makes the game very defensive in this MU. When it comes to defensive options, fox does have lasers for spacing. We can just sit in crouch and let him go wild. If we have a percentage advantage, just let him go Ham. If we are behind, take the 1%, and approach. If he drops lasers and approaches, feel free to use aerials, or empty hop to make them whiff for a punish oppurtunity. If he retreats to his shield as we approach, get behind him. We can then bair him as we get behind him, or just make him whiff a smash attack or bair.
We can easily edgeguard him. Especially if we somehow get him below the ledge. Fire fox is the easiest thing to beat since "Go Diego Go Adventure" on the Wii. The best option is to fast fall dair, so you can get that semi spike, so it puts him too low to recover. If he saves his jump and does it again, you should be able to touch ledge first, then ffdair again. Side b is a nair away from being beaten, best thing to do is to try to catch his side b mixups. Nair is usually the best option, long lasting hitbox that surrounds your whole body. I have used dair before to set up a fair or bair or even rest, but that's riskier than it's worth tbh.
Fox is known for his great combos like Dthrow-fair, utilt strings, dtilt uair, and Dair Usmash. Dthrow fair isnt a combo on puff once you hit 30% if you know how to DI. Dthrow fair uair? definitely not lol. utilt strings we can get out of after 2 maybe 3 at low percents. I will try to test Codaption 's rest theory through utilts, sounds doable. We can rest after his jab 2 before his jab combo. Most foxes dont do that, but its there. Dtilt to uair is a thing on us still, and it's scarier than those naked siamese cats. It doesnt work on us at higher percents like 90ish, but if you get hit at 70% with a dtilt, put your hands in the air and pray they mess up the DI read.
I would try to pick stages with higher ceilings, avoid Dreamland when BF is an option. Lylat is great, but I wouldn't expect that to happen, as most foxes will ban it. I would ban Halberd and Delfino, if given 3 ban TC.

I would say 55-45 our favor.

 

[Codaption]

I'm gonna give my honest opinion and say what actually happens in a match, and not give theory of this matchup. Of course, Jigglypuff doesn't win

Fox is just a GREAT character. I used to think he was the best. I still think he's amazing, and though Inthink Jigglypuff is great as well, Fox is just... Too good.

Fox is among one of the fastest characters in the game, and also has a very good pivot grab. Don't forget to mention his grab combos. His 37% down throw -> fair -> Uair still works on is I believe, and he can kill us pretty early. He usually also can get good punishes becuase of his speed, and successfully bait us to do whatever becuase he can be scary sometimes. Also, are safe on sheild options will still be safe on sheild, but generally not safe because he can run and up smash or dash attack depending on the situation. Sometimes even grabs. His frame data also beats out some of our options that usually work.

I know we're technically great at edge guarding fox, but that's only when he uses up b. It's truly a joy to come up with an edge guard to counter this, but what if he uses side b? We can only punish thiseasily if we're waiting for him to get back on stage, but if we're on stage, he'll just drop down and up b. This isn't as bad in stages like FD and Smashville, but those places can be banned . Though we can intercept his recovery, we can't easily do it if he doesn't need to recover. And let me ask you this: have you played a match IN TOURNAMENT where you edge guarded a fox AND took his stock at least twice in a 2 out of three set, or three times in a 3 out of 5 set assuming it's two stocks? Probably not (though I'm sure some of y'all have. Amateur foxes against good Jigglypuff's am I right?).

However, we do have good stages, but fox does too. We should ban battlefield and Town and City, becuase it's hard to edge guard him there. Also dream land, but if you like dreamland like me, ban battlefield. I just like the wind. Out of my experience, FD, Lylat, sometimes Smashville, and Duck Hunt are our best stages. We wouldn't really like Dream Land, delfino, or halberd. I don't think Castle siege would be too bad, but it should only be a counter pick depending on the fox player.

I know, I know. We can crouch under lasers. We can get an edge guard that takes a fox's stock sometimes. It isnt too hard to combo Fox. There are several times where we can bait fox into a rest setup. He dies earlier to rest (I think). Sometimes we can nair to stop a comb. But in the end, fox just beats are options almost in every way. He takes are stocks much easier, his combos still work on is most of the time. He doesn't have much lag. He's just the better character.

I'm gonna have to give this matchup 35:65. Maybe 40:60.

Lol no, Fox is easy pickings offstage. Illusion is great as a mixup, but it's completely unsafe (to the point where, again, you could Rest him out of it if you have the timing of a machine), and Fire Fox's startup is so long that we could probably punish it even after trying to cover Illusion. If you know what he's coming back with, Fox is most certainly not returning to base.

Speaking of base, I think I may have been a bit off of mine with saying he controls the pace of the match as well- this why I try to wait for other people to comment before I say anything definite lol. Didn't really think about his options against shield, that certainly helps us... We actually seem to have a fairly easy time approaching here, though our camping is still probably hampered by his speed. At least it's better than his ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DavemanCozy]

D-throw -> F-air is a thing of the past that you shouldn't be falling for, that only works if you don't know how to DI/vector, or if your character is heavy at low%. Fox's combos come from tilts, jabs, D-airs, dash attack, and soft N-airs mostly, but combos aren't what you should be focusing on against Jiggs anyways. Fox will be dashing around, racking up damage with stray hits and laser pressure, and looking for openings to get the confirms for KOs. Jiggs does not have the frame data to keep up with him, neither does she have the speed. Both don't really want to approach, but Fox has tools and speed to force the approach: Jiggs does not.

If Fox wants to run in like a crazy rabid animal with no plan, then yeah, he will just lose to Jigg's hitboxes. The matchup is defensive for both sides because neither sees an incentive to get close... until Fox remembers he has laser gun with the better overall mobility.

If Fox just racks up damage and runs away, what does Jiggs do? We both definitely struggle with shields, but Fox doesn't have copious amounts of lag after nearly every move we do, and we also don't have to gracefully float back down to reach the ground while fast-falling. If Jiggs shields, Fox can fast fall and grab her quickly, or he can run and pivot grab, or just run past her shield. Throws won't kill her until late %, but if you keep shielding you just keep taking damage when you're thrown. Jiggs does what, B-air our shield? Go behind Fox and you better be sure with your spacing, lest he drops shield and U-tilts. He can setup uairs and bairs with it, easily on Jiggs floaty body. Pound it? Unless we have a depleted shield, that doesn't scare Fox.

Fox offstage is easy pickings for 90% of the roster who can also edge-guard Fox. No surprises there, join the rest of the cast.

I'm unsure about resting Fox after jab 2, the rapid kick comes out at frame 3 now after they removed the herp-derp jab lock.

I really don't see how Puff wins this MU, and by extension I also don't see how she beats ZSS, nor how Sonic is 55:45 when all he needs to do is poke Jiggs and run away from her. I can't actually believe I read the posts far back and saw that.

This MU is like 30:70 or worse, maybe 40:60 at the very best for Jiggs, if only because a Fox offstage is a dead Fox, but that's been a staple issue with Fox's recovery since N64.

 

[Codaption]

Lasers shouldn't really scare Puff when we can camp much more effectively than Fox can with them. In no way does he force us to approach when we can literally duck under his only projectile.

Our frame data may not be fantastic... in fact, it's pretty darn bad. If endlag is your focus, though, then I direct you to our Fair. The thing is completely safe on shield when spaced right and has very little lag to boast, and considering it's our main tool for poking I'd say that's relevant. In general our aerials don't have too much lag, all of them barring Dair autocanceling out of a shorthop, and with Fox having some minor range issues his don't do a great job of beating ours. (Does Uair have disjoint? Assuming yes, but if not we might be able to trade the first hit with Dair to avoid the second.)

I'd honestly go as far to say we have an easier time on shield than Fox does, or at least about as well- we can pressure shield in front of him with Faor behind him with RAR fullhop Dair (which should be enough to avoid his Utilt if we drift away with it), We have a great way to capitalize on a weak shield that can also beat out spotdodge, and a grab will almost never kill but will always do more damage than yours (all throws do 10%, pummel does 3% while still being decently fast).

Fox's raw speed far outweighs ours, though, so he'll have no real trouble coming down hard on our mistakes. We'll have to do what we do best and play it safe here. It may be in your favor, but 30:70 is waaaay too generous.

(I will have to concede that you're right about some of our matchup ratings being wonky, Reflex actually came on to say how ridiculous the rating on Sonic was- a lot of our better players on the Puff Skype don't really come here to get their input, sadly. We actually do okay against a lot of the top tier, though, so while Zss probably isn't in our favor it's in all likelihood not a bad mu at all.)

 

[drakeirving]

Fox's uair isn't disjointed while our dair is disjointed, but its hitbox is significantly larger than ours (radius of 5.2 and 6.2, vs 2.8 on our feet). We shouldn't really beat it, but if you want to test it then go ahead.
EDIT: wait the point was a trade. Yeah that might work fine.

 

[Codaption]

Heheheh....if that's the case, than we can abuse that to cheese our way out of Uair kills. Reopen BF as a possible stage, anyone?

 

[Principe Momopato]

i easy to edgeguard fox but he have better ground game than jigg

he cant break combos of jigg because his air attacks are a little bit slow
but fox have better kill potencial than jigg

he is light and is verry easy to kill with fsmash or rest ( but rest is risky)

whe fox is playing against jigg he will be shielding and trying to do a smash attack

I think is even(50:50) because the two have good things to do against the other

 

[Principe Momopato]

the best strategy can do is play safe (never do rest if is risky and you can fail a fail is a jigg death) whield and grabbing and trying to keep fox in combos and off stage (fox in offstage its litterally the death of fox)
Mi friend is a main of fox and he think is 55:45 in jigg favor because the easy edgeguard

 

[Desu~]

Guys.

Guys.

Fox' foxtrot into Usmash ****s our **** up guys.

 

[Jiggly]

Guys.

Guys.

Fox' foxtrot into Usmash ****s our **** up guys.

how? that's just a raw upsmash, he can do it while running and jump cancel it which is even more of a menace.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Lasers shouldn't really scare Puff when we can camp much more effectively than Fox can with them. In no way does he force us to approach when we can literally duck under his only projectile.

Crouching becomes a stalemate in the case % is even: a patient Fox will not approach, you're not Luigi, you can't crawl under them and you eventually have to stand up. Or wait for Fox to stop shooting. Reminds me of the Kirby match, except Kirby actually has good frame data.

I don't see how Puff really camps Fox either? If you choose to float around, you only have so many jumps, you need to land eventually. The only bad thing Fox has in speed is air speed, but we have fast ground speed + fast vertical air speed to make up for that, and one of the fastest jumps too.

Our frame data may not be fantastic... in fact, it's pretty darn bad. If endlag is your focus, though, then I direct you to our Fair. The thing is completely safe on shield when spaced right and has very little lag to boast, and considering it's our main tool for poking I'd say that's relevant. In general our aerials don't have too much lag, all of them barring Dair autocanceling out of a shorthop, and with Fox having some minor range issues his don't do a great job of beating ours. (Does Uair have disjoint? Assuming yes, but if not we might be able to trade the first hit with Dair to avoid the second.)

I'd honestly go as far to say we have an easier time on shield than Fox does, or at least about as well- we can pressure shield in front of him with Faor behind him with RAR fullhop Dair (which should be enough to avoid his Utilt if we drift away with it), We have a great way to capitalize on a weak shield that can also beat out spotdodge, and a grab will almost never kill but will always do more damage than yours (all throws do 10%, pummel does 3% while still being decently fast).

U-air is not disjointed but it has a lot of range because the second hit is with his tail. If you're planning to trade with it you should not do it with the second hit. Fox's U-air also auto-cancels in a short hop and full-hop -> U-air -> land on BF (mid) / Dreamland (mid) / SV platforms also autocancels it, so he can put a lot of pressure on a floating Puff trying to land.

EDIT:
F-air is probably the way to go as far as Jigg's spacing game goes, but the move still lasts a long time, landing lag was not my only focus. True, it's a long-lasting hitbox, but if you shield it the hitbox disappears. So say you are approaching with F-air and Fox shields it, then what? Unless you hit with the soft, latter part of the hitbox and are weaving away in time, Fox can drop shield and punish your f-air. D-air in this case might be better since it has multiple hitboxes, but it only covers her bottom area and lets Fox hit her from above with any jump -> fast-fall aerial. Plus, even if you do auto-cancel it, you're still going to be in the D-air animation for at least ~45 frames. Again, you need to weave away, but then you're putting space between Fox and not really accomplishing much unless he's being used by an impatient player.

U-tilt is just an example: how do you deal with B-air? Or if he rolls away? Unless you have him cornered, he won't care because you can't punish his rolls, you're simply not fast enough. Fox is fast enough to punish your rolls (which are bad in the first place anyways) and your air dodge (which is bad too) on just reaction.

Fox's raw speed far outweighs ours, though, so he'll have no real trouble coming down hard on our mistakes. We'll have to do what we do best and play it safe here. It may be in your favor, but 30:70 is waaaay too generous.

(I will have to concede that you're right about some of our matchup ratings being wonky, Reflex actually came on to say how ridiculous the rating on Sonic was- a lot of our better players on the Puff Skype don't really come here to get their input, sadly. We actually do okay against a lot of the top tier, though, so while Zss probably isn't in our favor it's in all likelihood not a bad mu at all.)

I firmly believe the MU is 30:70 ~ 60:40 at the very least since the advantage Puff has on getting Fox offstage is the only one and there's nothing else to it, though it is a significantly good advantage in the MU. We straight up win in the neutral: if Fox messes up, Puff needs to get a read and react accordingly to punish him before he has a chance to put up shield or roll away, whereas Fox can punish Puff on reaction for the most part.

A bit offtopic, while I'm not entirely sure about ZSS vs Puff or Shiek vs Puff, I can definitely see Puff having some advantages escaping some of the Boost Kick and Bouncing Fish setups respectively due to her character design.

 

[Codaption]

Crouching becomes a stalemate in the case % is even: a patient Fox will not approach, you're not Luigi, you can't crawl under them and you eventually have to stand up. Or wait for Fox to stop shooting. Reminds me of the Kirby match, except Kirby actually has good frame data.

I don't see how Puff really camps Fox either? If you choose to float around, you only have so many jumps, you need to land eventually. The only bad thing Fox has in speed is air speed, but we have fast ground speed + fast vertical air speed to make up for that, and one of the fastest jumps too.

I was talking in a more general sense when I was talking about camping. We don't exactly camp him out very well either, honestly, but it's still much better than what he can do against us. You're right, we can't crawl under lasers, but if we duck then we can stay that way until Fox stops shooting- while it's unlikely that we'd be able to punish the lag effectively, he gets absolutely nothing from it other than some extra time off the clock (which would likely be in our favor, as we'd only stay that way if we have the percent lead). If he has the lead, we can just jump over the lasers, which would leave us with maybe an extra 1 or 2%... and unless he drops his gun right then and there, a much better punish opportunity as well.

U-air is not disjointed but it has a lot of range because the second hit is with his tail. If you're planning to trade with it you should not do it with the second hit. Fox's U-air also auto-cancels in a short hop and full-hop -> U-air -> land on BF (mid) / Dreamland (mid) / SV platforms also autocancels it, so he can put a lot of pressure on a floating Puff trying to land.

I wouldn't really ask about trading with the second hit, but the lower range on the first hit could make it a bit harder to do so with that. Really, though, an attempt to trade is just another option that makes it a little better for us than a 50/50 airdodge read. We also have the air mobility to try and weave around it, so keep that in mind- sometimes we might go to the ledge to escape, it's not fantastic but it's the lesser of two evils.

F-air is probably the way to go as far as Jigg's spacing game goes, but the move still lasts a long time, landing lag was not my only focus. True, it's a long-lasting hitbox, but if you shield it the hitbox disappears. So say you are approaching with F-air and Fox shields it, then what? Unless you hit with the soft, latter part of the hitbox and are weaving away in time, Fox can drop shield and punish your f-air. D-air in this case might be better since it has multiple hitboxes, but it only covers her bottom area and lets Fox hit her from above with any jump -> fast-fall aerial. Plus, even if you do auto-cancel it, you're still going to be in the D-air animation for at least ~45 frames. Again, you need to weave away, but then you're putting space between Fox and not really accomplishing much unless he's being used by an impatient player.

Fair always requires stringent spacing in order to be safe, so this isn't anything new to us. However, when done right it's still safe on shield, Fox shouldn't be getting any sort of direct punish on us in that scenario.

I suggested Dair as a way to beat out Utilt more than anything else, I hadn't really considered it against anything else. Suppose Fair will have to suffice, then.

U-tilt is just an example: how do you deal with B-air? Or if he rolls away? Unless you have him cornered, he won't care because you can't punish his rolls, you're simply not fast enough. Fox is fast enough to punish your rolls (which are bad in the first place anyways) and your air dodge (which is bad too) on just reaction.

I....don't really have much to say here, honestly. Puff has a lot of trouble punishing backwards roll in general, and our range issues mean we probably don't have a real answer to Bair (though if somebody could test it against our Bair, that'd be handy dandy since ours is much stronger).

I will point out, though, that our airdodge is the longest in the game and simultaneously has only five frames of endlag. I wouldn't say that's bad at all, especially in conjunction with our floaties physics... not abusable, for sure, but of course no airdodge really is even with how good they are nowadays.

I firmly believe the MU is 30:70 ~ 60:40 at the very least since the advantage Puff has on getting Fox offstage is the only one and there's nothing else to it, though it is a significantly good advantage in the MU. We straight up win in the neutral: if Fox messes up, Puff needs to get a read and react accordingly to punish him before he has a chance to put up shield or roll away, whereas Fox can punish Puff on reaction for the most part.

I'd put it more along the lower end of that range, myself. I won't contest that you probably have the advantage here, but you don't wallop us that hard onstage.

A bit offtopic, while I'm not entirely sure about ZSS vs Puff or Shiek vs Puff, I can definitely see Puff having some advantages escaping some of the Boost Kick and Bouncing Fish setups respectively due to her character design.

They are not advantageous matchups. However, a lot of what Shiek has comes from frame advantage more than anything, which doesn't help against a kill move with frame 1 invincibility. Dying early isn't really a problem against Zss because literally everyone can and will, and like you said we're harder to set the move up on anyways.

EDIT: So how are we going to factor in the changes to shields into this thread? We may need to redo all these matchups, though honestly we really did need to revise some of these ratings anyway. We certainly gained fantastic benefits from this patch, possibly moreso than any other character and certainly more than most of them.

I'm unsure how that affects the current matchup, though, since I could see Fox's issues against shield vanishing into thin air with the nerfs they got. Any Fox mains still here that could give some insight into how he's been affected?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

hello Jigglypuff boards, Zelda boards would like to invite you over for Tea and Sass

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...f-and-rollucario.384490/page-23#post-20290453

 

[Wintermelon43]

Don't accept any drinks a Zelda or Wii Fit Trainer main gives you.

Believe me on this one.

(Matchup discussion is fine though lol)

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=S6h_5fXqPjLt5WNSvbfizg we are discussing jigglypuff and friends and would love your input

 

[Funtroon]

How is the Puff and Megaman match-up? I've heard different things. Some may say that we have the advantage, while others are claiming that Megaman has the upper hand.

Thoughts?