Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

Kojii

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Sorry to sound so dramatic when I say that I just don't want people to whine and complain about how cheep jiggs is or something like that we have hard enough time as it is we don't want people getting angry about the rest buff and thenot Sakurai sweeping in to patch it out right? Oh and thanks for the combo idea never thought about fair for some reason I kept trying to go for nair
What rest buff?
Dair to rest is far from cheap, it's only a true combo at certain %s, and it doesn't even kill at all those %s. Dair is also a move that's not easy to set up from nothing, you usually have to combo into it. The general majority considers puff as laughingstock anyways, they'll probably be impressed if you land dair to rest.
 

Smeefy

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What rest buff?
Dair to rest is far from cheap, it's only a true combo at certain %s, and it doesn't even kill at all those %s. Dair is also a move that's not easy to set up from nothing, you usually have to combo into it. The general majority considers puff as laughingstock anyways, they'll probably be impressed if you land dair to rest.
Talking about fromy brawl and trust me I've run into mamy a people who say puff is "broken" because of rest
 
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I wouldn't say that Dair is that hard to land raw. You can retreat with it to catch approaches, and it's pretty alright on shield in general. It's also a lot more useful on platforms (though sadly our poor vertical mobility means we can't always capitalize on that if we're not already there, but they certainly make killing with Rest less of a chore), and since it covers multiple ledge options on its own you can use it there to start a wall of pain.

By and large, though, it's nothing that would merit a nerf from Sakurai, especially not from one person suddenly starting to use it. He's terrified to touch us anyways, maybe he's afraid we'll Rest him if he does :p

Aaaaaanyway, let's get back to the discussion at hand. Any more input from the Ryu players?
 
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Smeefy

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I wouldn't say that Dair is that hard to land raw. You can retreat with it to catch approaches, and it's pretty alright on shield in general. It's also a lot more useful on platforms (though sadly our poor vertical mobility means we can't always capitalize on that if we're not already there, but they certainly make killing with Rest less of a chore), and since it covers multiple ledge options on its own you can use it there to start a wall of pain.

By and large, though, it's nothing that would merit a nerf from Sakurai, especially not from one person suddenly starting to use it. He's terrified to touch us anyways, maybe he's afraid we'll Rest him if he does :p

Aaaaaanyway, let's get back to the discussion at hand. Any more input from the Ryu players?
I honestly wanna say ryu wins this match up his hard hitting air game combined with a hard to gimp recovery makes approaching ryu difficult but with proper spacing as jiggs should be doing its not impossible just heavily in ryus favor
 
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It's more than likely that Ryu wins the matchup, for sure, but saying his recovery is hard to gimp isn't entirely true. If you can get him far away enough from the stage that he has to use Tatsu, you can bop it with an aerial (Dair has disjoint, as does Bair if you can time it right, and you can trade with Nair or Fair and tech against the stage to survive the hit) then there goes the stock. His air acceleration is the worst in the game, so unless you just tap him lightly he flat-out can't recover from that. However, with his top 12 airspeed and the distance in True Shoryuken he won't always have to rely on Tatsu and it's imperative that you make him... we may be able to intercept True Shoruken with Dair, though, I'll just need to check if it has any disjoint (doubt it, honestly). The invincibility only lasts until the hitbox first comes out, so if you're not right up on him you should be in the clear.
 
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Smeefy

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It's more than likely that Ryu wins the matchup, for sure, but saying his recovery is hard to gimp isn't entirely true. If you can get him far away enough from the stage that he has to use Tatsu, you can bop it with an aerial (Dair has disjoint, as does Bair if you can time it right, and you can trade with Nair or Fair and tech against the stage to survive the hit) then there goes the stock. His air acceleration is the worst in the game, so unless you just tap him lightly he flat-out can't recover from that. However, with his top 12 airspeed and the distance in True Shoryuken he won't always have to rely on Tatsu and it's imperative that you make him... we may be able to intercept True Shoruken with Dair, though, I'll just need to check if it has any disjoint (doubt it, honestly). The invincibility only lasts until the hitbox first comes out, so if you're not right up on him you should be in the clear.
Hunh never thought about it I knew you could challenge tatsu hell all you really have to do is duck and rest of her misses the ledge but I didn't know you could challenge a true shoryuken
 
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It'd be very bad to mess up and I've yet to confirm that it's even possible, but it's not like it'd very strict on spacing or timing if it is. Dair again has disjoint and is a pretty long-lasting multihit, and it's not like he'd use it to go anywhere but the ledge so there's not much of a guessing game involved.

He still has Tatsu, though, so he could use it to recover from this or just go to ledge if we read it wrong.
 

Jiggly

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one thing about the ryu matchup that Ive learned, fh nair is amazing, bc it punishes hadouken flawlessly. you can also beat utilt with nair sweetspot. I find that I use fh dair a lot too. Never use rollout, even less so with ryu bc of FA stopping you in your tracks
 
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I don't find this matchup to be bad for our pink marshmallow. We can gimp Ryu easily and he's fairly easy to Rest. He also can't contest us in the air. At the same time, though, Collarbone Breaker is very dangerous and hard Shoryuken kills us at pitifully early percents. I'd say it's either even or slightly in Ryu's favor.
 
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After a bit of asking around, I was told that Shoryuken had "barely existent" disjoint above him. I'm not entirely certain what this means and it probably shouldn't be trusted just yet, but for now take it as a good sign.

Collarbone breaker is an absolutely terrifying move, and he can set up for it with the Shaku hover cancel tech for a guarenteed shield break. If you see them jumping before using it (they'll use it right before they hit the ground). try and avoid Fire hadouken or break it with an aerial; do not shield it or you probably just forfeited your stock. With stuff like this on the table, we should be using shield sparingly if at all in this matchup.
 

CHOVI

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More like 70:30 on Ryu's favor.
He's hard to gimp. He kills us early. He has good range. Sure we can beat Hadouken with nair but he's just too strong and has many tools to beat us.
 

Jiggly

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More like 70:30 on Ryu's favor.
He's hard to gimp. He kills us early. He has good range. Sure we can beat Hadouken with nair but he's just too strong and has many tools to beat us.
he's not even close to be hard to gimp. Only problem is his SUPER LINEAR invincible up b. If they are trying to rely on that, you can easily intercept their air path to their sweetspot zone.
 
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I... actually found out that he's basically impossible to gimp. He gets his Tatsu back after getting hit, which is something I had no idea of, and that "barely existent" disjoint is apparently very, very existent. Knock him away and he can basically just come back over and over again.

I do not have high hopes for this matchup.
 
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CHOVI

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I think he can be gimped if you hit a very specific part of his Shoryuken, but I insist in it being hard.
 

CHOVI

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Could we abuse the invincibility on our Dash attack and Down smash for edgeguarding?
Dash attack is a decent edgeguarding tool in some specific situations, but I don't think it helps a lot in this MU tbh.
Down smash is difficult to time, but if you could do it, I think It'd be a great tool. Also does it really have invincibility?
 
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Stickmanlolz

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Dash attack is a decent edgeguarding tool in some specific situations, but I don't think it helps a lot in this MU tbh.
Down smash is difficult to time, but if you could do it, I think It'd be a great tool. Also does it really have invincibility?
She only has invincibility on her legs while the attack is active.
 
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I think you might mean intangibility on Dsmash, and Dash Attck doesn't have either that or invincibility. Just weirdly fantastic priority.

Neither are particularly useful edgeguarding tools in general, unfortunately. Dsmash is at least pretty alright for ledge trumps, though, so if you want to go for that then be my guest. We might be able to force a low recovery from that point.
 
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CHOVI

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I think you might mean intangibility on Dsmash, and Dash Attck doesn't have either that or invincibility. Just weirdly fantastic priority.

Neither are particularly useful edgeguarding tools in general, unfortunately. Dsmash is at least pretty alright for ledge trumps, though, so if you want to go for that then be my guest. We might be able to force a low recovery from that point.
I always thought Dash Attack had invincibility. What does it not beat?
 

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We can't close the discussion. We have no input from Ryu mains.
 

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Trample is a property on moves that clank where unlike most other moves, the attack just continues instead of both colliding moves stopping with that recoil animation. Because of this, if you collide strong dash attack with any other (grounded) clankable move that does less than 19%, you continue with the weak hit. This still doesn't mean you outright win the trade, particularly if both moves have trample, in which case the (second) hitbox that hits first generally wins. If you hit an aerial it also disregards trample just because aerials always trade when possible.
 
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For future reference, it's best to invite the speakers from the other side of the discussion from the outset. The more input we can get, the better, and they know Ryu better than we do.
 

OmegaStriker

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Trample is a property on moves that clank where unlike most other moves, the attack just continues instead of both colliding moves stopping with that recoil animation. Because of this, if you collide strong dash attack with any other (grounded) clankable move that does less than 19%, you continue with the weak hit. This still doesn't mean you outright win the trade, particularly if both moves have trample, in which case the (second) hitbox that hits first generally wins. If you hit an aerial it also disregards trample just because aerials always trade when possible.
Yep. Trample is great for approaching on the ground because if you read moves that are within the threshold that it can beat, you can score nicely. However, because dash attack is unsafe on hit at %s lower than about 40 or so, I wouldn't use it as an early approach option.
 

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yeah it'd be nice if it wasn't extremely punishable at all times with every character and punishable even on hit

even just letting it pop through characters in shield would be nice
 
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Actually, giving Dah Attack a boost in range would be a pretty nifty buff all around. It'd still be awful on shield, but we could use it to punish backwards rolls, and it'd give a boost to our oos game (and a minor one to our approach). Might also be able to get some new followups off of it within certain percents as well due to positioning... Dash Attack-> itself would work for longer, along with maybe some other fun stuff. Hmmmmmmm.
 

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Ok so first I'm going to post a match vid of me in tourney at a local vs the resident Jiggs main of New Jersey. This vid is oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold!!!!

However it shows what happens when both chars engage in footsies and it shows some good interactions at mid range and offstage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVEg9ylJuVM

Ok so on stage honestly Ryu wins. His buttons have huge hitboxes, he does monstrous damage hit for hit, has great confirms into combos, kill confirms, devastating punishes and can zone a bit with Hadoukens. Add Collarbone breaker to the mix and Jiggz is afraid to block too much as well.

For edgeguarding Ryu cant really edgeguard her but she can edgeguard him. So thats great for her.

Her advantage state beyond edgeguarding however is lack luster and she has a hard time consistently stopping FA in neutral. She has grabs and her dair but a blocked dair could mean death or a damaging punish. And her grab game is not extremely threatening. So generally risk vs reward always favors Ryu.

Jiggz dash attack does indeed have trample (other fighting games call this property "Crush", because the attack literally crushes other moves)

Ryu however has his light ftilt which is transcendent at just his foot as well as heavy utilt which has full upper body invincibility and can blow through everything Jiggz does in the air. Ryu gets alot of mileage out of Heavy Utilt in this match.

I will reserve my thoughts on a match ratio for now, but honestly it can't be even. The onstage game goes to Ryu and Jiggz tools dont at all stop Ryu or hinder his overall gameplan. She is never in control on stage. She is forced to react to what Ryu is doing or be outdamaged and lose in trades.
 
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WD40

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Ryu wins this matchup pretty easily IMO. I have a friend that I practice against a lot that plays Jigglypuff and it just seems like an uphill batle all the way for Jigglypuff. Emblem Lord covered most of what the Ryu player is thinking about regarding this mu. Heavy jab, heavy utilt, and rising Fairs are really good against Jigglypuff. If I were Jigglypuff playing against Ryu, for this matchup I'd be looking at going for a timeout honestly. Floating in and out of his zone, baiting attacks, just tacking on damage and playing very safe.

Ryu can focus through Rest, and I have found that if Jiggs gets a rest kill on Ryu, unless Ryu gets sent into the background of the stage for the kill, he has enough time to spawn, quickly drop down, and run up shoryuken. If you do see a Ryu either whiff a FA, try to use a hadouken when one is already out, try to use a hadouken in close quarters, or whiff a shorykuen in neutral, those are your chance for free Rests.
 
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Her advantage state beyond edgeguarding however is lack luster
I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post but I'm going to have to correct you on this. Puff's advantaged state is actually pretty nice- the existence of Rest makes that an inherent part of her character, and her combos into it coupled with Fair WoP make you really regret letting her get in. Pound is no Collarbone Breaker but it can make you question shielding if she's given the chance to pressure yours (puff can bring shield to breaking point with one or two aerials), and she can play stupidly lame if she gets a percent or even a stock lead.
 

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Compared to the top tiers im sorry its nothing special. Everything I say is not in a vacuum but compared to what we know is dominant in the meta.

Does she have consistent and safe combos into Rest?
 

Jiggly

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Compared to the top tiers im sorry its nothing special. Everything I say is not in a vacuum but compared to what we know is dominant in the meta.

Does she have consistent and safe combos into Rest?
fair rest
dair rest
utilt rest
uair rest
bair rest at low percents or on heavies
yeah
 
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