Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Codaption]

For future reference, please ask questions like this in the Q&A- this thread is reserved for discussion on whichever matchup is being analyzed. Since the Fox discussion is pretty dead at the moment, though, I guess I'll give my input here. Might be useful in case we ever get to Megaman in the future.

First off... we can approach Megaman pretty easily due to his low-priority projectiles being broken by Nair and our other aerials (you can also nab his metal blade if you get the Chance and use it for Rest setups), which is a definite plus for a character that usually struggles with getting in. This is especially good against Mega in particular, as he isn't very mobile, doesn't really have much to punish us oos, and overall has pretty mediocre close-range options (as long as you watch out for that shoryuken, it shouldn't be hitting often but will tank you outright if you let him sweetspot it). His recovery has intangibility on frames 7-10 but in general shouldn't be much trouble- in general, it's a worse Spring Jump barring the fact that it can cancel spikes.

However, it's not as if he doesn't have upsides here as well. The biggest trouble you'll have here is in the air- his Fair and Bair have pretty decent disjoint and are very fast as well (Fair being frame 7 and Bair being frame 4, which outspeeds all of our aerials), meaning they'll beat anything we could potentially throw at him there. His Dair and Uair aren't as fast but will outrange everything we have and make your life painful if you let them. The only issue is... none of these aerials autocancel and all of them have fairly heavy landing lag, so they can't actually give us as hard a time as they might otherwise. Nair is pellets again, which again we can outpriortize with ease...

Megaman also possesses a small frame and solid airspeed, but he's also a heavy fastfaller so those two facts can only help him so much. Overall....
-approach by breaking pellets with Nair, and maybe Fair if you're confident.
-Be careful with your spacing, he can't punish you if you're smart but if you're not he will wreck you hard with his Usmash and Utilt
-Don't get caught above him, his Uair will beat you up and take your lunch money if you let him juggle you

As long as you follow these guidelines, you should be set. Though I'm usually adverse to putting labels, this time I'll venture to place the mu at around even, maybe a slight advantage for us- though we have a lot going for us, Slash Claw and Flame Sword are a troubling pair of aerials for us and are enough to bring it back for him on their own imo.

 

[drakeirving]

Small note about Mega Man in the air: he has better aerial acceleration than us, and so can weave more efficiently. This combined with his range is what makes his keepaway quite good, so in order to get in there you have to take advantage of his endlag more than anything.


also never fight custom mega

 

[MisterDom]

How is the Puff and Megaman match-up? I've heard different things. Some may say that we have the advantage, while others are claiming that Megaman has the upper hand.

Thoughts?

Many Mega Man players recover in a certain pattern, (The Mega Man main at my tourneys usually jumps, recovers, and then jumps last time I played him, and it's a good mixup, even if you know what he's doing). This is important to keep in mind, so you can easily read their recovery. They're vulnerable throughout their recovery!!

For some Mega Man mains, this is also common for their neutral game, usually jumping and shooting in a certain pattern, and shooting their metal blade at certain times. Catching that metal blade goes great in your favor, usually cutting through a pellet and messing up their neutral occasionally. Also those great setups for some combos (usually when they're still or you're very close to them)! It's important to note when they jump, so u can catch them with something. Nair does cut through at least one of the pellets, so that could be a decent tool to getting them offstage.

A well played Mega Man does have the upper hand in the neutral, usually having an option covered for anything you do. Especially since they do shooting patterns usually in the air! Don't try to mindlessly approach unless it's a free nair, or could hit them with a combo tool. This should be done in endlag, but since he doesn't have much good endlag to exploit, we unfortunately lose the neutral.

Also, don't attack shield. You'll get the uppercut of sadness, or bair of not fun...

In the end, don't get close when you're both at a distance apart, be careful with what you punish with, and try to get him offstage where he's most exploitable. He's not the easiest to combo, and you must retreat in a way where you don't get zoned in, because YOU WILL GET ZONED IN A HIGH COMPETITIVE PLAY! HE CAN HAVE GREAT SHEILD PRESSURE! Somewhat competitive play usually won't consist of these difficult tasks to overcome to win. Usually those players are using laggy moves, and are easy to edge guard and get off stage. Reads can be somewhat important in this matchup since it's so hard to get a hit other than nair and fair sometimes.

This definitely isn't our best matchup at high level play, but no matchup is un-winnable, and there is certainly worse matchups.

 

[drakeirving]

Oh by the way, similarly to what I mentioned here about ROB, a Z-dropped Metal Blade into Pound will instantly break a shield. A thrown one won't lead to a break if they're fast enough. However, unlike ROB's case, because Z-dropping has zero endlag, you can do a falling Z-drop onto his shield, immediately Pound, and the shield stun from the Blade turns it into an inescapable shield break. It's guaranteed as long as it hits normal shield. Additionally, because it's multihit, even if he powershields the first hit the next will force regular shield and you'll -just about- break his shield anyways. Even if you mistime and he unshields he still can eat a Pound to the face.

You can also combo a Z-dropped Blade from a full jump into Rest if you can get the timing right. It kills MM regardless of DI starting at 47%.

EDIT: I recorded a replay of both of these. It'll be up sometime soon.

 

[drakeirving]

See video description for essentially the same thing I wrote above.

 

[Funtroon]

pls delete this.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

This discussion seems to have stalled. We need more Megamains to come here or compile the info and state the matchup ratio.

In case of the latter I say 55:45

 

[MisterDom]

It's been a month since the last post... Should we change the character Jiggly ?

 

[Jiggly]

It's been a month since the last post... Should we change the character Jiggly ?

I think so. Also, I want to make the OP simpler. One of the reasons I haven't been doing well witht his thread is because I added a bunch of info to it. I think that I'm just going to make it be the ratio, and the matchup discription. With that, we should move on to Ryu! I will fix the OP and update it all within the next 3 days!

 

[MisterDom]

I think so. Also, I want to make the OP simpler. One of the reasons I haven't been doing well witht his thread is because I added a bunch of info to it. I think that I'm just going to make it be the ratio, and the matchup discription. With that, we should move on to Ryu! I will fix the OP and update it all within the next 3 days!

Alrighty! Hope that works!

 

[Funtroon]

The Ryu match-up is perhaps the worse match up for me. I feel like everything hits like a rock, especially his aerials. We have to be play really careful and have our spacing on point if we want to win a game against him. His kill confirms into the Shoryuken are death for us. I once got KOed by our best local Ryu through d-tilt into true Shoryuken at like, 31%. Depressing stuff.

I still feel like we have few things up our sleeves though. For starters, we have superior aerial mobility, something that Ryu lacks. We can edgegaurd him pretty well if we learn how to avoid his side B. We also duck 80% of his moves, which is huge. His fireballs can be nullified pretty easily, either by ducking, a nair or even a jab 1.

I'd love to hear what others have to say, I could learn a lot since I've been getting bodied left and right against him recently ):

 

[Codaption]

Gonna withhold opinions until the conversation starts as I usually do. For now, I'll just point out that Bair's disjoint should rip straight through Tastumaki with careful spacing, making his horizontal recovery that much more vulnerable.

 

[Jiggly]

Gonna withhold opinions until the conversation starts as I usually do. For now, I'll just point out that Bair's disjoint should rip straight through Tastumaki with careful spacing, making his horizontal recovery that much more vulnerable.

Nair also destroys tatsumaki. Jump in offstage and collide with it and win. It's great. Ryu is pretty easy to gimp.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

I once saw that Serynder say that the Ryu matchup is heavily in our favor. Get him in the air and juggle him with up-air (and pound?) none of his tools allow him to truly deal with this it's like stealing candy from a fully grown man :3

 

[MisterDom]

Ryu...

Ryu is a damage manufacturer and businessman. Basically all moves below a 10% output has something to be comboed into, and everything else over 10% output is dangerous, and some of those moves still combo!

Which is why we must be careful. Ryu is mostly a ground based character unless going for a follow up in the air. Some moves I think should out-prioritize us, so juggling might be bad if our follow up isn't quick and furious. The moves I'm thinking of would probably be his fair and maybe bair(?)... and nair, dair, and possibly FF uair should come faster. Also, his Focus Punch comes out way faster than you think, and will ruin a few combos. My advice is don't be scared of this... good Ryu's usually jumps out of it instead of using the punch for getting out of combos. They don't risk much. Less skilled Ryus' might try to use it, and in that case, we get a punish! If you so happen to hit him right when he starts the punch, it might be safe to hit him again, ending his armor and giving you a possible combo. Ryu is intimidating, but don't be scared of him. It's important to know the skill of your Ryu!

Edge guarding Ryu also becomes an effort. Ryu's recovery is very good vertically (He can seriously recover from the bottoms of most stages), and a hitbox will likely work when recovery, so be careful if you're near the ledge. However, the recovery is horrific horizontally, in which case the Ryu will use his side-B (I ain't typing that long name!!), in which is the most important thing to gimp, because his shoryuken isn't very tradable, as Codaption and Jiggly pointed out. I know nair, and possibly fair and bair could help with this. Maybe pound could beat it and we could get a follow up? Ryu shouldn't be the hardest to combo, especially offstage without the worry of his Focus Punch.

I'll post more later...

 

[drakeirving]

I once saw that Serynder say that the Ryu matchup is heavily in our favor. Get him in the air and juggle him with up-air (and pound?) none of his tools allow him to truly deal with this it's like stealing candy from a fully grown man :3

????
focus attack exists, that doesn't make any sense

People also seem to be ignoring that he can use Focus Attack to recover, which often can squash attempts to edgeguard because it eats your attack and also because he halts vertically. He doesn't just have to tatsumaki when you want him to.

Also, what would the spacing be for nairing tatsumaki anyways? It doesn't make any sense that you can trade with it unless you're way above.

 

[Jiggly]

I love my boy sery, but he shouldn't be used for MU stuff tbh. He thinks puff is top tier, and thinks that brawl puff was high tier. He thinks puff wins most MUs, and his explanations aren't very strong.

Also, drakeirving brings up FA, make sure to use Dair a lot in this MU lol.

I think that ryu wins this, but we have a lot of good tools against him. He cant approach us all too well, and his combos don't last long on us and we can escape a lot of shoryu combos.

Also about nair, just rush in right in front and nair. It beats it. Sweetspot beats full on, or nair and fall down and hit him right above his leg.

 

[Codaption]

I think that ryu wins this, but we have a lot of good tools against him. He cant approach us all too well, and his combos don't last long on us and we can escape a lot of shoryu combos.

FP dash cancel is an approach tool, don't forget...

Also, Jab-> Shoryuken is a thing. Remember that Ryu can cancel certain attacks on hit.

 

[MisterDom]

FP dash cancel is an approach tool, don't forget...

Also, Jab-> Shoryuken is a thing. Remember that Ryu can cancel certain attacks on hit.

More examples of true(?) combos into shoryuken are:

Dtilt(s)--> shoryuken/side-b/any type of haduken/strong dtilt--> side-b.

Utilt(s)--> shoryuken/Dair if near ledge

Focus punch--> dair--> shoryuken

Focus punch--> shoryuken (of course)

Strong utilt(or up-smash? One of the two)--> end hitbox of shoryuken... Still deadly.

And of course jab--> shoryuken as already mentioned by Codaption... But not near as effective, probably won't work... Definitely won't work on us!

 

[Codaption]

The fact that Shoryuken is basically better Rest hurts my soul.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

I love my boy sery, but he shouldn't be used for MU stuff tbh. He thinks puff is top tier, and thinks that brawl puff was high tier. He thinks puff wins most MUs, and his explanations aren't very strong.

Also, drakeirving brings up FA, make sure to use Dair a lot in this MU lol.

I think that ryu wins this, but we have a lot of good tools against him. He cant approach us all too well, and his combos don't last long on us and we can escape a lot of shoryu combos.

Also about nair, just rush in right in front and nair. It beats it. Sweetspot beats full on, or nair and fall down and hit him right above his leg.

I was honestly just taking whatever Serynder said at face value due to how well known he is (and his cool mask). But when I tried to put his advice in effect I got nowhere so I chalked it up to my own skills.

btw: Brawl Jigglypuff high tier?(I kek'd)

 

[MisterDom]

You guys fine if I call Ryu mains here? For more insight?

 

[Codaption]

I mean.... why would we? It'd be a very shallow and one-sided discussion without them here to inform us on what their character can do, particularly to us.

 

[Serynder]

I love my boy sery, but he shouldn't be used for MU stuff tbh. He thinks puff is top tier, and thinks that brawl puff was high tier. He thinks puff wins most MUs, and his explanations aren't very strong.

and if you knew me at all, you would know that i'm 99.9% of the time joking when i talk about Puff's superiority.

I won't throw around handouts. I summarize very clearly what needs to happen in a situation, when I'm given a question. I won't hold your hand every step of the way after that, because I'm still trying to improve my own gameplay, while dealing with my own life. I've literally spent more hours on theory crafting, practice, and studying to better improve my Puff than most people do, on getting college degrees. It's irritating that I'm just expected to release all that specific information, when I'm just given generalized questions and situations to toss generalized input in. Every instance of a situation can have a thousand different varying circumstances, and I can't/won't sit there and draw a map for each one. There is no one mathematical formula to succeed in every potential situation, in a real-time based game.

 

[CHOVI]

and if you knew me at all, you would know that i'm 99.9% of the time joking when i talk about Puff's superiority.

I won't throw around handouts. I summarize very clearly what needs to happen in a situation, when I'm given a question. I won't hold your hand every step of the way after that, because I'm still trying to improve my own gameplay, while dealing with my own life. I've literally spent more hours on theory crafting, practice, and studying to better improve my Puff than most people do, on getting college degrees. It's irritating that I'm just expected to release all that specific information, when I'm just given generalized questions and situations to toss generalized input in. Every instance of a situation can have a thousand different varying circumstances, and I can't/won't sit there and draw a map for each one. There is no one mathematical formula to succeed in every potential situation, in a real-time based game.

I honestly doubt you could spend more on a game that's barely over a year old than on a college degree but okay...

 

[Jiggly]

and if you knew me at all, you would know that i'm 99.9% of the time joking when i talk about Puff's superiority.

That's the point, many people will take it seriously. often times you make joke answers and people don't understand xD

 

[Stickmanlolz]

and if you knew me at all, you would know that i'm 99.9% of the time joking when i talk about Puff's superiority.

I won't throw around handouts. I summarize very clearly what needs to happen in a situation, when I'm given a question. I won't hold your hand every step of the way after that, because I'm still trying to improve my own gameplay, while dealing with my own life. I've literally spent more hours on theory crafting, practice, and studying to better improve my Puff than most people do, on getting college degrees. It's irritating that I'm just expected to release all that specific information, when I'm just given generalized questions and situations to toss generalized input in. Every instance of a situation can have a thousand different varying circumstances, and I can't/won't sit there and draw a map for each one. There is no one mathematical formula to succeed in every potential situation, in a real-time based game.

(0_o) My mind has been blown. I didn't even know you had an active Smashboards account or knew about all the research you put in to the character.

 

[MisterDom]

I haven't labbed it, but what if pound beats shoryuken? I also think we can edge guard him if we hit him without hitting us... but because of that hitbox it might be nearly impossible unless we hit him near the beginning of shoryuken, or get a lucky bair stage spike.

 

[Codaption]

I haven't labbed it, but what if pound beats shoryuken? I also think we can edge guard him if we hit him without hitting us... but because of that hitbox it might be nearly impossible unless we hit him near the beginning of shoryuken, or get a lucky bair stage spike.

Hitting him on startup is not an option. True Shoryuken has invincibility on frame 1.

Chances are that Pound would not beat Shoryuken, most certainly not without from very precise spacing, so it's better to try and intercept him before he can recover back to stage with it (preferably while he's in the middle of Tatsumaki).

 

[CHOVI]

Does Shoryuken have full invinicibility or does it have weak spots?

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Puff's options for beating Ryu's Focus Attacks:

Outside of general dodging and the universal standard grabs, you have these multi-hitting attacks:

• DAir (probably your best air option)
• 2-part Neutral A Jab string (Fastest ground option)
• Side 3, Pound Blitz (Easiest option, whether in the air, or on the ground)
• Neutral 2, Relentless Rollout, IF Ryu's still in the middle of charging up FA when you turn yourself around back to him for the 2nd Ram.

Other potential options:

Up 1, Sing, on the ground (While it technically IS an OoS option, I wouldn't fully trust it like your USmash)
Up 2, Hyper Voice, and Up 3, Spinphony, technically CAN hit more than once, but I'd expect Ryu to FADC after the 1st hit into whatever he wants, including FADC-ing towards you into True DP at 61+% for the KO.

Aside from maybe Up 1, I don't believe Puff has any armor breaking moves that are dedicated to beating FAs like Rose's EX Soul Spiral.

To be frank, since there's only really 2 multi-hitting attacks I can confidently mention as being able to consistently beat FAs (DAir & Jabs) that you'll actually have access to on a daily basis (as much as I'd LOVE to bring Neutral 2 & Side 3, they're effectively forbidden in most serious formats), you'll probably have to respect FA(DC)s more often than some other characters like , (Once Limit Break's charged up, Ryu mind as well cross off FAs as something to recklessly use against him), and .

 

[Codaption]

Does Shoryuken have full invinicibility or does it have weak spots?

It does not, which is why I don't rule out the possibility entirely, but the fact is that you'd be trying to hit him from below you with a move aimed towards the side. Landing it would be... awkward to attempt.

Dair might work, but I don't know what the hitbox on Shoryuken looks like so I can't say that definitely.

Puff's options for beating Ryu's Focus Attacks:

Outside of general dodging and the universal standard grabs, you have these multi-hitting attacks:

• DAir (probably your best air option)
• 2-part Neutral A Jab string (Fastest ground option)
• Side 3, Pound Blitz (Easiest option, whether in the air, or on the ground)
• Neutral 2, Relentless Rollout, IF Ryu's still in the middle of charging up FA when you turn yourself around back to him for the 2nd Ram.

Other potential options:

Up 1, Sing, on the ground (While it technically IS an OoS option, I wouldn't fully trust it like your USmash)
Up 2, Hyper Voice, and Up 3, Spinphony, technically CAN hit more than once, but I'd expect Ryu to FADC after the 1st hit into whatever he wants, including FADC-ing towards you into True DP at 61+% for the KO.

Aside from maybe Up 1, I don't believe Puff has any armor breaking moves that are dedicated to beating FAs like Rose's EX Soul Spiral.

To be frank, since there's only really 2 multi-hitting attacks I can confidently mention as being able to consistently beat FAs (DAir & Jabs) that you'll actually have access to on a daily basis (as much as I'd LOVE to bring Neutral 2 & Side 3, they're effectively forbidden in most serious formats), you'll probably have to respect FA(DC)s more often than some other characters like , (Once Limit Break's charged up, Ryu mind as well cross off FAs as something to recklessly use against him), and .

We generally leave customs out of these discussions due to how they've fallen out of favor for the most part, but thank you for the input there anyway.

As far as Focus Attack goes, there's nothing saying we can't just make more use out of Jab and Dair for this matchup. Both are fairly good moves on their own, and we don't have any particular need to keep them fresh in order for them to remain useful.

 

[Smeefy]

I've got a question I've been trying to lab dair for the longest while now and I've been able to get strings off of it but not any true combos is there something I'm doing wrong?

 

[CHOVI]

I've got a question I've been trying to lab dair for the longest while now and I've been able to get strings off of it but not any true combos is there something I'm doing wrong?

Are you trying to combo into rest? If so... it's not easy. Be sure to move backwards for the first half of the move and forward for the second half. After the move is over quickly jump (sometimes double jump) into a rest. If you moved forward for long enough, you'll have max air speed and will be able to execute the rest. Otherwise, you'll fall.
Here's Reflex's explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRLCd1dYA-o

 

[TurboLink]

I have Smash 3DS and main Ryu. So if anyone needs help trying to determine what the matchup is like for Jigglypuff then I can help by playing against you.

 

[Smeefy]

Are you trying to combo into rest? If so... it's not easy. Be sure to move backwards for the first half of the move and forward for the second half. After the move is over quickly jump (sometimes double jump) into a rest. If you moved forward for long enough, you'll have max air speed and will be able to execute the rest. Otherwise, you'll fall.
Here's Reflex's explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRLCd1dYA-o

No I prefer not to combo into rest only because if I miss it leaves me wide open I'm more so talking about say another dair or fair or pound besides through my labbing I figured out that as long as puff lands behind her opponent it's they pop up in front of her

 

[CHOVI]

No I prefer not to combo into rest only because if I miss it leaves me wide open I'm more so talking about say another dair or fair or pound besides through my labbing I figured out that as long as puff lands behind her opponent it's they pop up in front of her

Well the point is to practice it until you don't miss rest. I mean, you're basically handicapping yourself by avoiding an amazing tool.

 

[Smeefy]

Well the point is to practice it until you don't miss rest. I mean, you're basically handicapping yourself by avoiding an amazing tool.

True but everyone killshould with rest and doing it over and gives jiggs a bad reputation she's a lot more complex than that

 

[Codaption]

I'm gonna have to interrupt you here, Smeefy, and point you towards the Q&A thread for questions like this. Kinda suprised Jiggly didn't jump in to point that out but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

While I'm here, though, I'll go ahead and ask you if you're fullhopping Dair for your combos. Shorthop Dair is basically useless unless the situation you use it in involves a ledge.

Also, Dair-> Rest is a fantastic tool and you should definitely try to use it. I'm... not sure how doing so would "ruin" the reputation of the character, in fact it'd probably do the exact opposite. Dair-> Fair is also possible, which can either lead into a Wall of Pain or Rest.

 

[Smeefy]

I'm gonna have to interrupt you here, Smeefy, and point you towards the Q&A thread for questions like this. Kinda suprised Jiggly didn't jump in to point that out but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

While I'm here, though, I'll go ahead and ask you if you're fullhopping Dair for your combos. Shorthop Dair is basically useless unless the situation you use it in involves a ledge.

Also, Dair-> Rest is a fantastic tool and you should definitely try to use it. I'm... not sure how doing so would "ruin" the reputation of the character, in fact it'd probably do the exact opposite. Dair-> Fair is also possible, which can either lead into a Wall of Pain or Rest.

Sorry to sound so dramatic when I say that I just don't want people to whine and complain about how cheep jiggs is or something like that we have hard enough time as it is we don't want people getting angry about the rest buff and thenot Sakurai sweeping in to patch it out right? Oh and thanks for the combo idea never thought about fair for some reason I kept trying to go for nair