Pokedex Entry 6: Snake

[SuSa]

Except for that shielding allows us to wait and see what the **** you do before we do ****. (Vs Squirtle, and to a degree, Ivysaur. You are lucky Ivysaur has a faraway roll :/)

Shielding lets us cover all of Charizards options, because of his pathetic troll roll. (We get a grab unless you roll away, in which we get shield drop > ftilt)

Also you should check Snake's grab range. Just look at that sexy Pivot Grab. You snap into my arms like a magnet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWll66BNE9o

Ftilt = 21% fresh
Dthrow = 11% fresh
Total: 32%

That is just assuming we get 1 grab on you.

Also with your "lawl we'll block it" lawl, we'll block you and OoS ftilt" ohwait... that's not how things work out.

Squirtle, with PERFECT SPACING can get pivot grabbed out of all of his aerials assuming you are within range to hit.

Ivysaur can space well, but doesn't really have much on Snake. Most of Snake's moves being fire based doesn't help her. (If you can land a usmash, we get to land an fsmash that KO's you at a neat 40%~. k?)

Charizard isn't really safe on block from anything unless you have SUPERB spacing, in which case we back up a bit and camp.

Also apparently you've never faced even a sup-par Snake.... reading from dthrow isn't hard on a majority of the cast.

tl;dr
Notice where Charizard and Squirtle are on this list: 1st and 4th on easiest..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804

 

[Steeler]

get that worst thread in the world bull**** outta here!!

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

In my experience Charizard is easy to screw up with nades.

At least Ivy can make them explode sometimes in Snakes hand with his Razor Leaf.

 

[Shaya]

60:40 Snake for Charizard... only?

Really?

 

[Scidadle]

Don't you mean Ekans HAHAHAWHAHAHAHA

 

[Miles.]

there is no way any of teh pokemanz vs snake can be 50-50.

he kos all them at really dumb low percents and they cant kill him until really high percents and then with fatigue its way worse.

 

[CoonTail]

I dont agree IRL.......were assuming top level of play. The Pokes can put up a good fight they are just slightly disadvantaged I really dont see this matchup being absurdly bad just pretty bad hence two 60:40's and at best a 50:50. I honestly feel those ratios are legitamate

 

[Toby.]

Snake has everything on the pokemon. Charizard is worse than 40:60, as is ivysaur. Squirtle is sort of ok for the first minute but even then is at a disadvantage. We can't outcamp snake. With US getting fatigued and dealing no damage to him theres no reason for him to approach. Furthermore, once we are fatigued we have no chance of killing him until over 200%.

His tilts outrange all our stuff. His uptilt on shield pushes us back so far that its impossible to punish it with anything. SH airdodge is horrible because snake can air release chain grab or dthrow **** us.

I could go on and on.

Squirtle isn't even at alllllll. If you ever play against a snake who knows the matchup in a tournament you should probably cry.

 

[typh]

and i did cry

 

[Miles.]

i think that we need to start switching A LOT in this match up. to rack damage and kills snake earlier.

just my 12 cents.

 

[Steeler]

yup i agree. i think the objective should be to have squirtle in when snake is at low percent and at really high percent...and use the other two to rack up damage as safely as possible.

 

[T-block]

that would make this matchup soooo intense. sounds like fun...i'll start messing around with it

 

[Magik0722]

Of course in doing so you have to really camp with ivysaur to let squirtle recharge, and snake outcmps ivysuar, and you definately do not want to have charizard out for a long time.

 

[Steeler]

yeah. it's the best strategy i can think of but it's not easy to pull off all the time...it's vulnerable to stuff like ivy gimps. but if you throw snake off stage as either ivy or zard, it often takes snake a while to get back to the stage. good switch opportunity. as squirtle you can try for a gimp or just switch if you have a good percent lead, so when squirtle comes back out, he's not playing from behind too much.

it's tempting to have squirtle out there all the time, including those middling percents but that's where you can't rack up an insane amount of damage quickly and can't really KO without a nice gimp either...squirtle is less valuable to you at those middle percents. it might be best to cycle through and at least get to charizard before the end of your stock so squirtle is out ready to KO if you died first. if you actually got the KO with charizard, then just do what you can in terms of damage before you die to snake's ridiculous KO power.

since switching is so important in this matchup, i really think your CPs should focus around zero switching or stuff like norfair lava wave where you can get "free" switches. snake doesn't really do "bad" on any stage against PT imo because PT suffers on the stages Snake suffers on, like Rainbow Cruise (has zero switch as an aside but ehh). Brinstar is interesting but you die reaaaaally early. snake doesn't last as long either though so that could work in your favor. brinstar's a big gamble imo but can pay off. plus squirtle ***** like wario but dies reaaaally early :I . i'm probably forgetting some oddball stage that could work in our favor but mainly i just see zero switch.

idk

cp dedede on delfino or multijumper on rainbow cruise something x__x

 

[Miles.]

pokemanz have powerz.

 

[Magik0722]

I have started to use rainbow cruise as a snake counterpick
I switch to ivy at the top right corner since squirtle gets KO'd really early there, i use squirtle during the ship portion and the endtire left hand side

Zard comes out and switches out at any opportunity depending on how the match goes

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Smashville as a CP with zero switch AT?

 

[T-block]

^ nononononono don't do that... it's like his best stage. ivy doesn't stand a chance there, even if you're just trying to outcamp.

brinstar should be your top CP. norfair and pictochat too

 

[MaTA]

norfair was good...

Starting Squirtle is a good idea, i've done that in the past a lot but I always start charizard first because i can pretty much get enough damage to kill him while surviving. Then a quick down throw or tilt and switch to squirtle for a quick kill. Sometimes switch right and get a couple bullet seeds in there. Everyone seems like they are just following what other people are saying. You guys have to feel whats best for you.

 

[Shaya]

IMHO:

Snake:

Squirtle - 55:45 - 60:40
Ivy - 60:40-65:35
Zard - 65:35...+

`-`

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You guys are all so negative. Mess around with some platforms.

 

[Toby.]

I dont think us talking about obvious advantages such as dthrow on zard is being overly negative. Honest is probably a better word.

Use of platforms doesn't change the advantage snake has. He can also use them extremely well. Our main advantage from platforms is in our increased ability to juggle snake and abuse his underside, but this is easily solved in a tournament match by snake striking battlefield.

Then the only platformed stages for us to work with are great snake stages anyway. As it is battlefield is pretty good for snake as well. If he sets up the explosives properly our approach is incredibly easy to shield grab, which = ****.

:/

 

[MaTA]

Its not a huge advantage and dthrow isn't that bad on charizard. Snakes are stupid sometimes when it comes to platforms so its not always bad picking a stage with movie platforms. They both themselves up too.

sets up the explosives properly, its simply pretend to run at them and they'll blow it up or you can shield it before it attacks you.

 

[typh]

you keep saying "dthrow isn't that bad on charizard" but it is

objectively

there's no arguing it

you're stubborn

 

[T-block]

and you can't say "snakes are stupid sometimes when it comes to platforms" either. if they're stupid, just beat them. we're talking about the matchup assuming the snake actually knows what he's doing

 

[Superspright]

I guess he isn't accustomed to the fact that MU discussions are theory. And in theory if snake was at the very pinnacle of his game he should be able to techchase anyone using charizard MANY times. It's like playing rock paper scissors, but you throw yours a half a second earlier. All he has to do is predict.

If I were you guys, I'd stuck to squirt and then go ivysaur maybe when he's within kill range. Because Charizard is going to be pretty much useless against a good snake.

 

[typh]

the only time i've beaten snakes was when i ended on a freshly-switched-to ivysaur on last stock high percents

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

K I'll give my opinion.

Squirtle: 60-40 Snake
Because Squirtle can juggle Snake but that doesn't take away that Snake has more range, weight, recovery, kill power, beats Squirtle on the ground, and outcamps Squirtle. Nades can give Squirtle a hard time as well.

Ivysaur 70 - 30 Snake
Ivys Fire weakness makes him die pretty fast, he gets outcamped as well, and he just doesn't have any advantage over Snake except maybe if you can BS him which is not that easy to do. XD

Charizard 65-35 Snake

Um he can outrange Snake and that sums up his advantages. He doesn't die as early as the othe r2 Pokémon but he still dies earlier thasn Snake.

That's what I think about this matchup. All the Pokémons are far from going even with Snake IMO.

 

[MaTA]

I've been dthrown before, im not stubborn i'll take the hit and continue on if anything. Its like you're just blowing it way out of perspective.

So we're talking about Snake like he knows what he's doing then wouldn't that mean we already pretty much lost. I understand everything whats going on in here. I'm just giving my theory on it. And in my theory from what i've experience the way i use charizard against snake works.

 

[Vermy]

Squirtle: 60-40 Snake
Ivysaur 70-30 Snake
Charizard 65-35 Snake

QFT.
And you are the first "Ivysaur main" i've seen who doesnt think that snake v ivy is 50-50. Glad to see fanboyism doesn't blind you from the truth. =]

See, this is why i have Wario and Falco for backup. Fighting Snake means being as patient as hell. Which means waiting. And waiting gets you fatigued.

 

[CoonTail]

-Alright I think this just needs to be said.......Mata there no more discussion about D-throw without making yourself a target. It ***** PT and honestly there isnt anymore argument just stop man, I dont get why you continue to go out and argue with Susa, Typh, toby,. I mean typh fought Susa in a tourny set and results were posted why are you still sitting here talking as if there is minimal damage from a D-throw and you miss the picture everytime. Tcranter explained it before its not just the D-throw its the fact that everything else snake does + how hard Dthrow ***** PT + the followup to D-throw being SO easy for them overall were at disadvantage. In short stop arguing man theres nothing to argue about.

Next the concept of switching I thought was generally assumed in this matchup because fatigue makes this matchup very difficult. I deff think with switching in persepctive the numbers change because your then assuming your using fatigued pokemon for minimal amount of time. Also has anyone every fought a snake of castle seige.....pardon me if there have been some rough matches for people but have you ever Down-B'd with PT during the level transition because if time if right and place it right the poke switch lasts the whole transition and can used to your advantage. As the stage transitions to dungeon dont switch right away but wait till about half way through transition that pokechange on either the left or right side of stage transition and youll pokechange off stage in mid-air once the transition goes away. With correct timing you will basically get a free switch and with snake's recpvery he cant do to much. So anyway without this being another rant, I know the Pokes are disadvantaged here but if were talking top level of play I thought poke switches were assumed because the diff between fatigue and no fatigue changes this match. WITHOUT FATIGUE(So Im basically saying in this matchup switches were made and PT's pokes were keep mainly fresh little fatigue) 50:50 squirtle honestly prob 45:55 in Snake's favour seeing no one is giving an inch on any poke having advantage, Ivy is 40:60 not to due being a fan but because un fatigued Ivy can put up a fight against snake, and I would like to say zard is 40:60 also unfatigued(Cmon guys what happened to rocksmash up-smash 61% that honestly always changes matchups for me figuring in the first two moves of a matchup Ive put 61% on).

Im not looking to argue with anyone here all Im saying is if were talking top level of play I dont think the PT end of the spectrum is being properly shown. I mean cmon if were not assuming switching then duh were at disadvantage fatigued PT fighting anyone is as if our pokes are all lvl 1 with no HP. So in short I know snake is a rough matchup and Im not arguing facts in front of me, just I do feel there is some bias saying that there isnt a single thing PT can do to snake IMO.

 

[MaTA]

I'm fine with everything, you guys are the ones all about it. i dont care for dthrow. I'm not the only one arguing so address them too. Its my opinion to say its not that bad and thats where i stand. I could totally understand everything that your saying. But im still not going to agree with it. so then just drop it. I dont care that typh fought susa in a tourney match, what does that mean. I fought HRnut in a tourney match, I didn't get 2-0 either. No matter what you guys say like i said, i understand but won't agree with it.

i just dont like how someone says their mind and what they experienced from a match just gets shut down. Like everyone is narrow minded. I dont like arguing with any of you guys, sure its the same way around say yeah we'll all just drop it.

 

[SuSa]

......
tl;dr
Notice where Charizard and Squirtle are on this list: 1st and 4th on easiest..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804

Guess Mata didn't even look at the thread. There is a reason they are the easiest.

It is because any good Snake that knows this information will use it against you and you won't just eat a forward tilt. You will eat several grabs, possibly more.

We can grab release Squirtle (90% sure) as well. Seen here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236239

If we can't, it's still a free dash attack. Which "Since the dthrow is soooooooo hard" is better then nothing, amirite?

But here's the thing.

THE DOWN THROW ISN'T HARD.

vs Squirtle, I take a step back. See what you do. React. Grab.
vs Ivysaur. I watch what you do. I react. I grab.
vs Charizard. I shield. I watch what you do. I react. I grab (or shield drop ftilt if you rolled away)

Mata, you have to just come to terms that a Snake who knows about the dthrow (away-towards attacks) and just STANDS THERE and reacts to what you do, will utterly demolish you with dthrow. It's not an RPS situation, it's a "hey look, he's rolling away *dash grabs*" "Hey look, he did a getup attack (away hit first) *shields* (towards hit) *grabs*" "hey, charizard rolled in place? *grab*"

RPS = Guessing
Predicting != Watching and reacting

Maybe it's because I made the dthrow thread so I just know the information the best... many others say they haven't studied it yet.. I've memorized the 11 we totally destroy with it, the 2 that we destroy if we take 1 step back, and most of the rest that we have a guarenteed followup due to their poor rolls. The ones we can grab release chaingrab then dthrow at the ledge (lawl. bad position for you. :-D) etc.

Tennet posted in the thread saying he hasn't gotten around to studying the thread so he hasn't used it.. so it's safe to assume that there are others in the same situation.

QFT.
And you are the first "Ivysaur main" i've seen who doesnt think that snake v ivy is 50-50. Glad to see fanboyism doesn't blind you from the truth. =]

See, this is why i have Wario and Falco for backup. Fighting Snake means being as patient as hell. Which means waiting. And waiting gets you fatigued.

Snake boards agreed Snake advantage vs Falco. I'm probably one of the few leaning towards 60-40 Snake-Falco.

Wario is a good choice.

 

[Miles.]

I've been dthrown before, im not stubborn i'll take the hit and continue on if anything. Its like you're just blowing it way out of perspective.

So we're talking about Snake like he knows what he's doing then wouldn't that mean we already pretty much lost. I understand everything whats going on in here. I'm just giving my theory on it. And in my theory from what i've experience the way i use charizard against snake works.

My zard works vs snakes too. Too good at not getting grabbed.

Still in snakes favor we have to be sooo much better than our opponent just for an even matchup.

Yaaayy pt!

 

[Steeler]

guys i think i found a new technique to minimize/negate snake's dthrow

as soon as you are grabbed, slap the snake player in the face and tell them to **** off with that bull****

it works i promise. typh try this on SuSa next time

and record it

also norfair is bad because if you are grabbed then you are SO ****ED by dthrow. don't go where a majority of the stage is platforms so you don't lose any more tech options imo

 

[SuSa]

Just noticed something:

"And in my theory from what i've experience the way i use charizard against snake works."

Then that isn't your theory, that is your experience. Vast difference.

Theory:

What tools does Snake have?
What tools does -insert Pokemon here- have?
Who has the most options?

Personal Experience:

Well ___ and _____ against ____ and ____

Theory with Personal Experience:

Dthrow just ***** PT.
****** a PT thanks to dthrow*

EDIT:
Steeler. If he slaps me I'll just start looking at his controller. (note that I have yet to see this be against the rules)

 

[Steeler]

typh will already by hiding his controller from you, he's ahead of the game

 

[SuSa]

Then how is he slapping me?

 

[Steeler]

with his head

that or he is just like *peach's *****slap* and it's so quick you can't react in time

 

[typh]

with my ****

awwwwwww snap