Pokedex Entry 6: Snake

[Steeler]

i will be gone for two weeks starting friday, so i decided to list a second discussion thread to keep yalls busy in my absence! perhaps a third would be necessary, but i trust that one of you will be able to make it if needed.

so anyway, snake. snake's imaginary range tilts **** squirtle's ground game. seriously. it's horrid. but squirtle's air game really likes the lag on some/most of snake's aerial attacks. try and keep the fight in the air and you'll have a shot...also take advantage of any mistakes snake makes in recovery (ie not recovering high enough)

ivysaur really doesn't mind snake, actually. snake's camping doesn't work all that well due to razor leaf, and ivysaur's jabs, dtilt, and ftilt give snake's ground game some trouble. oh and BULLET SEED that **** at every opportunity you get, snake is one of the heaviest characters in the game.

protip: sweetspotting a vine whip as snake cypher's his way back on stage

is very

very

satisfying

i don't see many snakes trying to actually jump out to edgeguard, they usually mortarslide or throw a few grenades out or something. ivysaur doesn't mind, it makes it easier to vine whip the ledge.

i think ivysaur has the advantage here.

charizard is okay...neutral i think. he has the range to compete on the ground, and his air game is pretty decent. sh a flamethrower or two, and if snake is running at you, flamethrower to screw up the dash attack/mortar slide.

rock smash has similar range to snake's tilts as well.

 

[Elliot Gale]

They're all at a disadvantage for some reason or other, but Ivysaur is best equipped for the job. You can keep the upper hand if you swap out a lot to keep him guessing.

 

[Onxy]

It's show time!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

It's show time!

LOL.... again.....
I think squirtle is at a slight disadvantage, you cant actually force him to an aerial battle( because his height allows him to attck and aerial squirtle trying to hit a grounded snake, and because he has proyectiles and the usmash), and a smart snale will be in the ground always against squirtle, but you can always GET him to the air with a throw or usmash, which will give you some oprtunities to win
I agree with the ivysaur advantage, i think the range helps you a lot, and in the air hes better than snake, like with squirtle, thorw him to the airs and he is yours, just be carefull of all his fire based atacks
Charizard, ill go with neutral, you both hva similar gama in the range and weight, flamethrower can help you a lot, and rocksmash while hes recovering is also goooood

 

[Charizard92]

... Snakes, please reply.

 

[Steeler]

can squirtle duck/crawl under some of snake's standard attacks?

 

[Elliot Gale]

Nah. He's great at pitching back grenades though.

 

[Cecilanius]

can squirtle duck/crawl under some of snake's standard attacks?

Probably the AAA combo. But, everything else, I think not.

Also, regarding Ivysaur...

From what I've seen, Ivysaur can be pressured into a grab fairly easily. The throw knocks every character very far. If you get enough throws out, Ivysaur can be off the edge in no time. I don't understand why Snake players don't edgehug Ivysaur. It's even easier than doing it to Olimar.

But, razor leaf and ftilt bother me so. I just shield grab through it most of the time.

(I've never played a decent PT. Just some fun rounds with friends.)

So yeah, being defensive and floaty: (instant air dodges and such) can really create a challenge for Ivysaur.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Ivysaur really is the best of the trio for tackling Snake. In fact, one of the best in the game for that matter. It's all about the spacing tools.

That and Snake is pretty clunky in general, so he's fairly easy to harass.

 

[Steeler]

that's how i feel egale. ivy is one of the few that outranges snake on the whole. utilt may be an exception, but usually snakes want to save that to kill.

and of course, bullet seed <3

try and avoid explosives, ivysaur is super weak against them.

 

[Hydde]

Snake is one of my toughest match ups.

IMO his cheapest move is that horrid ftilt which destroys everything.. His edguard is annoying with that up smash spam.

Squirrt has a very tough time fighting snake. He hurt the turtle just too easy...and the down throw is not a realiable kill move.. not even in high %...snake is too heavy.

Zard can do good damage but he is so big andthe explosions are just too annoying for him.
Pros: Xard can kill snake with his fsmash in early%, also u can gimp him with the meteor smash when he is usingthe cypher. But apart form that ull have a hellof a fight against snake.

Ivy saur is maybe the bestout ofthe 3...since u have razor leaf and can somewhat fight against him in the spam department... but anyways is not even close in terms of effectivity against his spam game.

Bullet seed can rack up some good damage and fsmashis a realiable killer against snake if used correctly.

As far as u stay in the stage ull do fine.... but once snakes puts ivy (or zard) on the edge,,,, ull be in for some trouble.

 

[Deleted member]

Id say ivy is neutral, the other 2 are disadvanataged, but can still put up a fight. Zard has easy spikes on snake, while squirtle can take him to the air, but ivy, with razor leaf, grabs and bullet seed, can give snake a run for his money. ITs still really hard for all 3, but its doable, better than some characters.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I rather think is a slight disadvantage for squirtle and zard, and a slight advantage for ivysaur, bullet seed can put some damage on snake, making him easy to kill with Fsmash, vine whip or even fair

 

[Steeler]

cat fight just posted an epic analysis of ivy/snake, and i agree with pretty much all of it. ivy really does match up pretty well against snake. i'd say 55-45 or even 60-40 for ivy.

 

[chubas]

Squirtle can in fact push snake into an approach or an aerial game, but something important: cannot KILL. You'll may have an easy time avoiding his grounded game, but Snake's weight and absurd recovery allow him to be difficult to KO. As for the grounded game, I love how nothing hits a crawling turtle, except for the horrible Dtilt.

Ivysaur, well, I pretty much agree with what have been said. You have a better time in stages with platforms, like Battlefield, since they protect you from Usmashes and are better for bulletseeding. Stages with some lot of vertical ceiling help here, like Jungle Japes (good luck Charizard) and Pokemon Stadium. Also, stages with small open spaces or obstacles help, like Pokemon Stadium or Norfair, even Delfino Plaza.
Killing with Ivy is yet a little difficult, but not as impossible as with Squirtle. Thanks to Snake's slow air attacks, Uair and Usmash are your friends here.

For Charizard, well. IMO, Snake's Up-B shouts "Spike me!" every time I see it. If you can make him air dodge earlier, you can Fair him to death instead. Nairs are great for spacing, and shield grabbing is a very useful weapon (just make sure you don't stay in the way of a mortar). As bullet seed, flamethrower makes lots of damage. Recovering from below is not very trouble because of fly's superarmor, but getting to stage can be walled pretty well.

 

[theEffinBear]

As for the grounded game, I love how nothing hits a crawling turtle, except for the horrible Dtilt.

All of Snake's horrifying tilts actually do hit a crawling Squirtle. His f-tilt and u-tilt can safely hit his own mines.

/RtEB
muttermutter frikkin invisible hitboxes muttermuttermutter

 

[Hydde]

From the 3 i think Ivysaur is the only one who can truly fight on his own against snaKe..... but is still in disadvantage.

Charizard is just too big...but from the 3 is the one who canreally kill snake with some ease..... spike included.

Squirt...is the one which u can maneuver the best and do surprise attacks against snake..... but snake will eat you alive with his Ftilt.

The most difficult fight i have had against snake...was a particular guy who was very skilled with him..... but was CAMPY as hell...and nothing is worst that a good snake campy user.

 

[Steeler]

Ok so we need to wrap this up. :S

I'd say Ivysaur is neutral or slight advantage...anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45. I honestly think Ivysaur has a pretty decent handle on Snake, but I don't want to get too carried away. ;P snake is for once outranged and outprioritized, and as long as ivy plays a decent midrange game, razor leaf screws up any grenade tactics. and ivysaur can definitely rack up damage on snake, particularly with nair to bullet seed.

the thing about ivysaur, i think, is that you can safely poke at snake and hurt him from a distance.

Squirtle is outranged pretty badly. however, squirtle's jabs and ftilt have great priority and i've seen instances where snake's ftilt clanked with squirtle's jab. squirtle really really has to use its superior mobility to even touch snake. and that's what all good squirtles should do anyway so...moot point. anyway snake's aerials are fairly laggy, so squirtle can try and REALLY push the advantage once snake is airborne. snake's various grenade tactics are fairly effective at screwing squirtle up and messing with its rhythm, at the very least. squirtle has to find a way inside snake's range and stay there with good pressure every now and then...

i think snake has a decent advantage here, at least 40-60, but it's not completely hopeless for the tiny turtle. just play a smart hit and run game and take advantage of any mistakes.

charizard is interesting...i'll be brief here since i'm getting impatient but snake still outranges zard with ftilt. flamethrower and rock smash will punish snake HARD if you manage to land it after a block or whiffed attack. bair has some decent range, utilt can juggle a little bit, and that dair...great spike on snake as he recovers from below. and as he approaches horizontally, both fair and bair hit snake off the cypher.

zard's a huge target for grenades and mines though so watch for that. zard has to play in snake's face and be aggressive because grenade cooking is a huge problem for someone of zard's size.

i'd say 35-65 or 40-60 in this case...please add in anything yall can come up with!

 

[Retro Gaming]

So you're saying slight for both Squirtle and Charizard and neutral for Ivysaur? I agree to that.

 

[infernovia]

I agree with this analysis. Snake doesn't feel incredibly difficult as PT.

 

[Trip.]

So you're saying slight for both Squirtle and Charizard and neutral for Ivysaur? I agree to that.

I agree as well.

 

[Fearmy]

snake will out range squirtle, but can't you easily dodge the grenades? even if they do cook it, you can do a Air Dodge and still approach him. You can Shield the F-tilt and go into a U-tilt Usage mode, to a U-air -> D-air.
Afterwards, it will depend where he is, but a Forward Hydroplane will probably put more pressure for Snake. But go with majority. Most Pokemon Trainers haven't mastered Forward Hydroplane (i've only seen one other, but he was terrible with Ivysaur and Charizard, and well i can do it about 75% of the time)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ok i agrre with the two disadvantages and the neutral for ivy... those fire explosives really hurt him

 

[Retro Gaming]

snake will out range squirtle, but can't you easily dodge the grenades? even if they do cook it, you can do a Air Dodge and still approach him. You can Shield the F-tilt and go into a U-tilt Usage mode, to a U-air -> D-air.
Afterwards, it will depend where he is, but a Forward Hydroplane will probably put more pressure for Snake. But go with majority. Most Pokemon Trainers haven't mastered Forward Hydroplane (i've only seen one other, but he was terrible with Ivysaur and Charizard, and well i can do it about 75% of the time)

You mean with like Ftilt and the like? I'm not joking when I say Squirtle's jabs clank with it and are faster and will therefore go through a clanked one. D=

 

[Fearmy]

You mean with like Ftilt and the like? I'm not joking when I say Squirtle's jabs clank with it and are faster and will therefore go through a clanked one. D=

well kinda, it's just that the Snake players Rely on F-tilt and U-tilt, they don't really have anything else >.>

 

[Retro Gaming]

I just posted that in regards to Snake out-ranging you. All you have to do is jab at the same time, you move in closer with your second jab, no? You keep clanking his hits until one of the jabs hits him. 's what I do.

 

[Pichu Sensei]

All of the pokemon work well against snake, Squirtle can harass, Ivy can inflict major pain, Charizard can spike, so switch out when you can and you'll be fine.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, but just remember, if PT is placed low or moderate on the tier list, it does not say a thing about individual match ups.
This is my point here, you also get to learn why there is some debate on the existence of tiers.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

 

[Adriel]

If Squirtle's jabs and f-tilt really do clank with Snake's then Squirtle vs Snake should be 50-50 in my opinion.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I never tried Ftilt, I'd be glad if someone checked that. I've gotten jabs to clank before for sure, first hit of his Ftilt. Someone want to test how Squirtle does versus Utilt with jabs?

 

[Onxy]

*Uses snake*

*Runs to the other side of the map*

*Uses Ftilt from across the map*

*Kills Squirtle*

Lol.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

*squirtle clanks his jab with ftilt*
*the following jabs hit snake*
*utilts snake a LOT*
*nairs snake*
*spotdodges to dsmash*
*evolves to wartottle and kill snake with ice beam*
LOL

 

[Bomber7]

-_- so simple. Snake out powers and our ranges PT. Unless you have the element of surprise or the person sucks then you're screwed.

 

[Adriel]

If Squirtle's ground moves clank with Snake's, then range does not really matter. Squirtle will outspeed Snake and his jabs/f-tilt will hit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Snake...I don't play a whole lot, but there is one around here that is pretty good. Plus, I beat Cort, so, nyah~

(Wasn't with PT, but it -must- count for something, right? D

Squirtle is at a minor disadvantage overall. Range issues are a real pain, with Snake having imaginary range, but Squirtle has good mobility on the ground as well as in the air. Water Gun actually plays a half-decent role here; shoot grenades back at him, or simply push him off the stage with it. The key to beating any good Snake is getting him in the air, and that's good, since Squirtle shines there. Once he's off the level, continue to pound him with B-Airs. Don't let him get the edge, and if he's definitely making it back, see if you can anticipate an air-dodge with your D-Air while he lands to send him off again. Approaching is a dangerous game here, but try to get a U-Tilt or throw in to get him in the air. Cross him up with aerials so he can't counterattack well...and that's much easier said than done. Get him off the level, and you should be able to take a stock, depending on positioning. It doesn't sound so bad on paper, but the range disadvantage and his obvious KO potential gives Snake the upper hand.

Ivysaur is probably neutral with Snake (if not a decent advantage!). Try to poke at him with B-Airs until your F-Tilt or F-Air will go through his shield. Razor Leaf can stop his grenades from working. N-Air is riskier against Snake than most characters, due to his dreaded U-Tilt. Once again, make him fight you in the air. Try to read him to get a grab. Once again, he's a sitting duck when recovering; try to slam him with F-Airs until he's within a sweetspotted Up-B's range. Catch him landing with a well-timed grab, and U-Airs are pretty safe to throw at him. It's not that easy for Snake to gimp you, so that's nice.

Charizard...is probably the worst of the three here. I'd say there's a slight-to-moderate disadvantage. Snake can outcamp you with grenades and U-Smashes. You'll have a hard time getting Snake off his feet. Unfortunately for you, Charizard has quite a difficult time returning to the stage against Snake, due to his slow movement. He's also caught by Snake's tilts very easily. Try to get near him by shorthopping Flamethrower and bait a grab. Throw him off the level and attempt to Rock Smash him. Because Charizard is so slow, gimping a good Snake will be difficult. There isn't a whole lot to be said, other than use your ranged moves to your advantage.

Remember, Snake is practically helpless off-stage.

 

[johnmcgerber]

SOMEBODY HELPPPPPP lol what do you do agaisnt granade spam and a edge grading snake

 

[Trip.]

SOMEBODY HELPPPPPP lol what do you do agaisnt granade spam and a edge grading snake

If he isnt cooking the grenades then you just run right past the grenades and ignore them.

 

[johnmcgerber]

If he isnt cooking the grenades then you just run right past the grenades and ignore them.

im mean im trying to get prepared to fight some A grade snakes i think they would expect something like that also which pkmn to the most

 

[TheReflexWonder]

SOMEBODY HELPPPPPP lol what do you do agaisnt granade spam and a edge grading snake

Read the thread, in my opinion.

 

[Retro Gaming]

The Squirtle match-up would be very close to neutral if for the fact that Squirtle is killed so quickly. I mean, Squirtle resists them explosions and he still dies relatively early. Oh, and Utilt is... what the heck.

I think Reflex is mostly correct, but I'm willing to argue that Charizard has more going for him than that. Like Reflex said, Snake is pretty helpless off-stage, and he is susceptible to the death-grab release from both Ivysaur and Charizard. Good Snake's are obviously then going to try to come back from above. Ivysaur really can't do much in the air, but Charizard is not afraid to follow him with multiple jumps. Snake's recovery is spike fodder, and Charizard doesn't mind the 6% or however much that does. Bair swats Snake to death out of his recovery, and Uair will him juggled if he tries from above. I find Nair being incredibly useful as an edgeguard because if you hit while Charizard's tail swipes down, it flings the opponent downard at a diagonal angle. This will more or less force Snake to recover from below.

Obvious problems for Charizard are that Rock Smash might detonate a grenade and that he's weak from below and he has no attack to clank with it (Like Squirtle's Nair clanks with it). Oh, and he's a big target.

I really wouldn't suggest trying to shield the C4 with any of the Pokemon. Just bait the explosion to get rid of it.