Platform stuff as Fox

[TKD]

Platform game is a big part of battling. This thread is for platform talk.

First of all, full hop or air-jump uair autocancel is possible onto any platform, as is bair.
As for dair, it's autocanceled if you buffer it from full hop onto low platforms like Battlefield's.
SH AC fair hits the opponent's feet from below if they're standing above you on low platforms (lower than Smashville's).

These are the most practical ACs if anyone here didn't already know.

As for the reason I made this thread, here are some interesting things you can bait when playing the platform game.

Things you can do while standing on platforms, from above the opponent:

• Falco's SH nair can be shield-grabbed very easily, immediately after blocking its first hit, since its second hit has no hitstun. You can do this from Smashville's platform as Falco's short-hop is high and his bodybox shares space with the hitbox. This means as long as he can reach, you can bait it to do this.
  It's possible to usmash it as well (though this is most most likely only possible on low platforms like battlefield's), but there are 3 less possible frames to do it (grab is 2 frames plus a grab armor frame better).
• Falco's SH bair is punishable from platform blocking, but only if you're very sharp and read and powerblock it.
• Both Falco's SH bair and nair are an easy punish if you platform drop air-dodge through them, most commonly with either utilt, grab or usmash (dash attack if nothing else reaches I'd guess).
• Lucario's SH fair can be shield-grabbed or usmashed from block depending on how the opponent spaces Lucario's body. You can do it as long as he's in range, which is easy to tell.
• If you're out of range and Lucario whiffs his SH fair while you're on a platform, you're free to dash usmash him while he still has height from the hop.
• I'm sure Lucario's SH uair is punishable like this too.
• This is one of those things that are possible because of Fox's low grab level. You can walk into Snake's direction and shield-grab his utilt if he does it. I say to walk so shieldpush is never an issue. His foot ends up high enough for usmash to work as well. I don't know if this works in SV.
• Another thing you can do vs this move is short-hop from the platform on prediction to Snake's utilt (as a bait), and fast-fall (through the platform) dair to punish if he does it. It's a harder and safer bait than blocking above him. NOTE: maybe there are more moves with lots of cool-down to do this to, for example maybe marth's utilt, definitely his usmash; although that character can actually reach your short-hop bait with an attack
• If you're blocking Snake's nair, you can shield-grab (maybe usmash too) inbetween hits. Just input the command immediately after blocking any of the kicks (except the last one of course).
• Dair counters Olimar's uair if you fast-fall it (the reason for the fast-fall is that Oli's uair wins if enough hits clash; don't remember if it's 2 or 3).
• Dair and nair counter usmash anyway. Yellow usmash, possibly uair counter aerials through disjoints though.
• Fall through platform + air-dodge is an easy counter to Oli's uair because of how long he commits to it.
• Fall through platform + air-dodge also counters Kirby's SH uair, G&W's nair...many short hop aerials, probably.
• Ice Climber's uair is an easy shieldgrab (can't remember if it's possible in Smashville though), unless they delay and do falling uair. Fox's quick bthrow on the main climber separates them well.
• Donkey's SH bair is likely shield-grabbable from platforms (must confirm), though maybe not Smashville's.
• Sonic's fair and uair bay be shield-grabbable as well.
• Wolf's uair is probably shield-grabbable, though I don't think Wolf players would do this often.
• If characters with high short-hops (like Falco, Marth and Lucario) empty short-hop (to delay an aerial or for whatever reason), you can shield-grab, walk up and grab, dsmash them, or in some cases usmash/dashusmash preemptively.

I think it'll be easier to order these by technique instead of ordering them by opposing character.

Other platform tips:

• I recommend to face the nearest platform ledge if near one when on platforms, because being pushed off a platform and landing on your back has terrible consecquences (from a lock or any hit, with the best possibility out of it only being neutrality if the opponent messes up), while you can move immediately after being pushed off into the direction you're facing.
• I of course also recommend noticing when the opponent faces away from a platform ledge immediately next to him, because you get a free follow-up if you push him off.
• Fall through platform + blaster shot is much better/safer than short-hop blaster because you don't make an arc and just land to the ground. A great move to use whenever possible while camping Falco inbetween reflectors and dodging lasers.
• Walk + platform drop + drift into the opponent with nair/dair is a pretty good approach.
• Letting go of ledge + air-jump to reach Smashville's platform is much, much easier if you platform cancel it with dair, than if you try to input the air-jump immediately after letting go of the ledge.
• You can platform cancel during transformations in Halberd, Stadium, and Delfino. You can platform cancel while Yoshi's Island (Brawl)'s platform moves, and you can also do it almost throughout the whole course of a Lylat match (except when the ship burns from "entering atmosphere", the only moment it stops moving).

Future possibilities:

• Tapping down at a medium speed (or depth maybe?) between what causes a spot-dodge and what only causes you to aim your shield low is the input for platform drop out of shield. This means there may be possibilities for great punishment from block against a ton of moves from platforms thanks to Fox's beastly dair and falling speed. Even cases without frame advantage and only nairing the back of blocking opponents would be great.

Any ideas?

 

[C.J.]

For platform dropping OoS, it's roughly about the same pressure/speed you have to press down to crouch on a platform without falling through it. The catch is, unlike with crouching, you can't slowly press down- it has to be a quick and fluid motion. Also, technically, you can nair/dair MK's uair on shield using this. He'd have to uair multiple times so you don't have to react to a frame 2 move, but, it's possible.

 

[B.A.M.]

Well once it hits your shield you can punish, that isnt that hard to react to due to shield hit lag and the fact u have quite a bit of frames due to lack of jumping frames imo.

@TKD: I know you said nair is good on the back of shield, but I believe bair would be better in that scenario.

Also in regards to Oli's Usmash is it specifically the strong hitbox that goes through Oli's usmash or does the soft hit go through it too? I know Sonic's nair goes through Oli's usmash including yellow. I get it down 90% of the time, but I just wanted to clarify that tech with you; i dont want to run in like a moron nairing the usmash and dying for some arbitrary reason lol.

We should also talk some more smash knowledge next time I see you at a tourney. Help me practice!



EDIT: Its also important to note that some characters getting shield grabbed while attack your shield will be in an air release state. So possible free air release for ppl who dont normally get it. Honestly, this information is great for all characters who have ground grabs.

 

[Exdeath]

For platform dropping OoS, it's roughly about the same pressure/speed you have to press down to crouch on a platform without falling through it. The catch is, unlike with crouching, you can't slowly press down- it has to be a quick and fluid motion. Also, technically, you can nair/dair MK's uair on shield using this. He'd have to uair multiple times so you don't have to react to a frame 2 move, but, it's possible.

Most Meta Knights Uair>Uair>Wait anyway, so it still works on reaction to a second Uair. Falling through a platform OoS is probably the single most under-utilized punishment tool in the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The fastest way to get to the to platform on BF is to buffer a double jump out of the first jump. If done correctly, it looks kind of like you platform cancelled

 

[-Cross-]

For platform dropping OoS, it's roughly about the same pressure/speed you have to press down to crouch on a platform without falling through it. The catch is, unlike with crouching, you can't slowly press down- it has to be a quick and fluid motion. Also, technically, you can nair/dair MK's uair on shield using this. He'd have to uair multiple times so you don't have to react to a frame 2 move, but, it's possible.

I've actually had a lot more success of doing a quarter-circle motion then just trying to press straight down. I believe innocentroads also mentioned this in his vid on platform dropping, idk why it works, but doing a quarter-circle motion while applying the same amount of pressure you are talking about gives me a very high percentage of successful platform drops OoS.

Also using this same motion you can buffer platform drops from any move. This is most noticeable with aerials because you land on the platform with an aerial, you buffer the quarter-circle platform drop, and you can instantly do another aerial while dropping through the platform. It's significantly faster then just pressing down to try and buffer the platform drop and aerial. I think it might be because the game reads a buffered down analog input as a crouch while you're on the platform so you don't instantly drop.

 

[Conviction]

You can run off Bf's top plat. and then Uair, make sure you are going to ground level, it'll autocancel.

 

[TKD]

You can run off Bf's top plat. and then Uair, make sure you are going to ground level, it'll autocancel.

dair's probably better in any situation. and i hope you mean top plat to mid plat, because if you mean uair from the TOP platform to the MAIN STAGE, well then duh. even sh uair autocancels.

I've actually had a lot more success of doing a quarter-circle motion then just trying to press straight down. I believe innocentroads also mentioned this in his vid on platform dropping, idk why it works, but doing a quarter-circle motion while applying the same amount of pressure you are talking about gives me a very high percentage of successful platform drops OoS.

Also using this same motion you can buffer platform drops from any move. This is most noticeable with aerials because you land on the platform with an aerial, you buffer the quarter-circle platform drop, and you can instantly do another aerial while dropping through the platform. It's significantly faster then just pressing down to try and buffer the platform drop and aerial. I think it might be because the game reads a buffered down analog input as a crouch while you're on the platform so you don't instantly drop.

very useful, thanks! it is extremely important that every player can do this consistently and with on-command swiftness. like QCDI, we can learn this. i don't have a wii so i can't practice/test it.

Most Meta Knights Uair>Uair>Wait anyway, so it still works on reaction to a second Uair. Falling through a platform OoS is probably the single most under-utilized punishment tool in the game.

mk has like a week of life left. let's skip him

@TKD: I know you said nair is good on the back of shield, but I believe bair would be better in that scenario.

there's absolutely no benefit of bairing a shield without autocanceling it.

 

[Conviction]

Yes my-next-to-kin I was stating the obvious I didn't notice up there so why not put it out there? I've found myself using it for juggling.

@Cross: I'm about to try that out right now, that's sounds mad interesting. I wonder why brawl has some weird buffering techs.

About the bair on sheild, I think doing that on the back of a sheild is more useful. I guess mixing up between Nair and Bair doesn't hurt though.

@BAM: Have you found any option selects for Fox at all?

 

[Chef Fox]

I saw this thread, then I saw my new capture card, so I made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVR...xt=C3c65b9eUDOEgsToPDskJUhvhEgqAuE-KQemfTXLpV
I thought a visual would be great.
Oh and I tested DK's Bair. It has a lot of shield push so you can slip off the platform very easily if you're close to the edge he pushes you to. Despite the shield push, you can always grab him, because his hurtbox is so big. Sometimes when you grab him, you get a grab break because Fox slides off the platform. I believe if you do a throw fast enough, it cancels the slide so there is no grab break.

 

[TKD]

I saw this thread, then I saw my new capture card, so I made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVR...xt=C3c65b9eUDOEgsToPDskJUhvhEgqAuE-KQemfTXLpV
I thought a visual would be great.

I love you.

Oh and I tested DK's Bair. It has a lot of shield push so you can slip off the platform very easily if you're close to the edge he pushes you to. Despite the shield push, you can always grab him, because his hurtbox is so big. Sometimes when you grab him, you get a grab break because Fox slides off the platform. I believe if you do a throw fast enough, it cancels the slide so there is no grab break.

Walk before blocking and shieldpush becomes much less of a thing.

About IC, I prefer bthrowing immediately. It separates them quickly and terribly. Shield-grab works on Fox's fair too (since you play Fox you'll obviously know the timing). You can probably usmash Falco's nair if you're sharp enough at the match-up. Shield-grab works on Falco's nair even from Smashville's platform.

 

[crifer]

amazing thread. makes the falco MU much better or at least easier to platform camp him :-)

 

[Exdeath]

mk has like a week of life left. let's skip him

Even if you don't consider its effect on the Meta Knight match-up, it's still relevant as an example of how potent its speed is in terms of frame data, not to mention that it's a set-up into kill moves.

 

[TKD]

amazing thread. makes the falco MU much better or at least easier to platform camp him :-)

i usually try to powerblock bairs and if he nairs i just punish it. i also block on platforms once in awhile just to see if he nairs. a GOOD falco will delay the nair and fast-fall though, so what you have left is punishment for the empty short-hop before the executes nair. more options involved, as all advanced play. as falco i'd delay nair or do it vs backs of shields, or freely on taller characters that can't punish it. otherwise bair.

Even if you don't consider its effect on the Meta Knight match-up, it's still relevant as an example of how potent its speed is in terms of frame data, not to mention that it's a set-up into kill moves.

you're right, it would be too good a technique...if it's possible. i'm gonna borrow a wii just to learn it. if it's possible consistently, i'm gonna make everyone learn this. with this, all mk would've had left on fox would be edgeguard and roll.

About the bair on sheild, I think doing that on the back of a sheild is more useful. I guess mixing up between Nair and Bair doesn't hurt though.

if ac'd, it may be good vs medium to tall chars on the front of their shield to avoid shieldgrab (except ddd and charizard), or to regain neutral positioning vs chars of this height that can punish nair from block, like marth. nair is generally better because it's an approach though. you have nair to block/utilt/grab/jab/shdair/move away

 

[Conviction]

On the thing about shield platform dropping: It works. I've tested it. I just need to work on my consistentcy is all.

@TKD: I was assuming medium to tall characters, sorry that I didn't clarify but yes I agree.

 

[-Cross-]

^TKD you should probably update your future possibilities section with the method I posted, because now I know I'm not some crazy lunatic and somebody else has had success with the method I have been using.

 

[Conviction]

We should probably go into platform canceling and how it can help us. It helps to keep on the pressure.

 

[Exdeath]

you're right, it would be too good a technique...if it's possible. i'm gonna borrow a wii just to learn it. if it's possible consistently, i'm gonna make everyone learn this. with this, all mk would've had left on fox would be edgeguard and roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ls70kHF_P8

There's a very large amount of depth here, and I feel that ~half of Brawl's remaining metagame can be found in mastering it and the more advanced applications of it (e.g. canceling shield).

 

[crifer]

We should probably go into platform canceling and how it can help us. It helps to keep on the pressure.

I often go for dthrow to platform cancel usmash on SV. Got a lot of kills by that.

Also I tried that against my crew member who plays Ike but he was able to shield the usmash, but was pushed down from the SV platform and I immediately droped through the platform and shine spiked him for the gimp.

 

[knuckles213]

I saw this thread, then I saw my new capture card, so I made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVR...xt=C3c65b9eUDOEgsToPDskJUhvhEgqAuE-KQemfTXLpV
I thought a visual would be great.
Oh and I tested DK's Bair. It has a lot of shield push so you can slip off the platform very easily if you're close to the edge he pushes you to. Despite the shield push, you can always grab him, because his hurtbox is so big. Sometimes when you grab him, you get a grab break because Fox slides off the platform. I believe if you do a throw fast enough, it cancels the slide so there is no grab break.

can the some of this be done to or 's sword

 

[Kuares]

can the some of this be done to or 's sword

Marth's sword is a disjoint, so they really shouldn't be close enough for a grab. Pikachu looks like it works with him on Battlefield but it's much harder on Smashville due to platform's height.

Speaking of which, let me go find the platform heights for those legal stages...

Low Platforms:
-Battlefield
-Castle Seige 1 Right
-Castle Seige 2 Bottom
-Halberd 2nd Part
-Lylat Cruise Edges
-Pokemon Stadium 1

Spoiler

Measured from flat parts with Full hop Dair, If it AC'd it's considered low. I'll find a way to measure the rest later

 

[TKD]

At low platforms, this works against any short-hop besides Lucas', Puff's, and of course MK's. This means you can shieldgrab a lot of things, including Marth's aerials if he's in grab range since his short hop is big (you probably won't shieldgrab any tippers unless maybe when powerblocked though).

You can shieldgrab Pika's SH uair unless he delays it, but if he delays it he's vulnerable before the aerial. You can't do this in Smashville, but he can't chaingrab you for long in that platform.

 

[Jet300]

:linkbrawl: Nair, Bair, and Fair can be sheildgrab. But his Dair and Uair can not be sheildgrab on the platform.
Because Links Dair and Dair pushes Fox too far for him to sheildgrab him. So the only thing you need to do is get out of the way.:foxbrawl: Fair and Uair can be sheildgrab on the platform.
Bair can not be sheild grab because Bair pushes Fox too far to sheildgrab him. I didn't get to try Fox Uair.Fox platform Laser camping helps him in some MUs.
Laser platform camping is not a good idea aganist :toonlinkbrawl:.
TL's outcamp us on the platforms. Fox can out camp Falco on the platform. You can Sheild grab:falconbrawl: Nair, Uair, Bair, and Dair, his Fair pushes Fox away CF
Soincs Uair, Bair, Nair, and i think his Fair can be sheild grab on the platform.MK's Uair, Dair, Nair, Bair, and Fair can all be shieldgrab on the platform.


Platform canceling is a tool that you can use on moving platforms like Smashville or lylat cruise. It gives you less landing lag on platforms.

The following stages that you can platform cancel are: SV, Lylat, Halberd(Only on the begging of stage when the match starts), rainbow criuse, PS1( You can only platform cancel when it transforming to a fire, water, or earth etc. And you can platform cancel on the windmill.)

 

[Kuares]

After messing around with Platformdrops a bit today, I found out how you can platformdrop easily after falling with a laser by doing a spot dodge motion after/before hitting the ground. Tried doing it with aerials instead and it didn't work the same.

Not sure if that's exactly how, muscle memory from L-cancel sorta. Can someone vouch for me on this and say this works?


Also Tkd, I sticked your thread, do you want me to merge this and that?

 

[fox67890]

Up-smashing from underneath low platforms

Some characters can get hit by fox's up-smash when fox is standing underneath a low platform (like the middle platforms on battlefield) and the opponent is on that platform.

The following characters can be up-smash constantly from below:

• MK
• Toon Link
• Wario
• ICs
• ROB
• Kirby
• Pikachu
• Squirtle
• Ivysaur
• Game and Watch

Although these characters can be done constantly, you sometimes have to focus on connecting with the up-smash because... their feet are small?
Also, an occasional sour-spot up-smash will sometimes connect rather than a sweet spotted one.


Special conditions for particular characters:

• Olimar(can do constantly, but somewhat hard to connect with)
• Ness (can do constantly, but somewhat hard to connect with)
• Lucas(can do constantly, but there is a little difficulty in connecting with it. The upsmash is sour-spotted a bit more than usual in my experience)
• There probably are other characters that I missed

I think Pit and KD3 also have strict positioning.


Some other characters can also be done constantly, but the up-smash connecting is highly dependent on what part of their animation are they in. For example, jigglypuff's standing animation consists of her standing and then doing a mini hop. Up-smash only connects on her when she is standing. During her mini hop, it doesn't connect.