PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Kyronexx]

So whats all the hub ub ?

 

[Uffe]

Not much, bub. How the heck did Zelda land in bottom tier? They're calling it the Triforce tier now, huh?

 

[Kyronexx]

Not much, bub. How the heck did Zelda land in bottom tier? They're calling it the Triforce tier now, huh?

dont know but i vote they just turn G tier into H Tier for (H)yrule

 

[Sync_]

CLEAR THlS STUFF OUT YINK! TOMORROW'S THE BIG DAY!

 

[Yink]

Match-Up Discussions have started. CONTRIBUTE PEOPLE. ; )

 

[Joker490Frozen]

^Which MU are we talking about o.0

 

[Yink]

^Which MU are we talking about o.0

Joker, we're starting with Link. There's a thread on the board with it!

 

[Underload]

I'll contribute as soon as I can give half-decent advice.

 

[PKNintendo]

Not much, bub. How the heck did Zelda land in bottom tier? They're calling it the Triforce tier now, huh?

See the thing is... Zelda is pretty terrible in Brawl. I mean she was higher up on steam of her mains alone but her true skills were revealed in due time. (Just like Wario who was once considered... bad)

Eh I digress. Good topic. Ness Matchups are pretty decent I guess.

 

[milesg2g]

Not much, bub. How the heck did Zelda land in bottom tier? They're calling it the Triforce tier now, huh?

lol i totally agree w/ you about her placing on the Tier list lol. but w.e I won't have to deal w/her anymore anyway.

 

[wowoduend]

See the thing is... Zelda is pretty terrible in Brawl. I mean she was higher up on steam of her mains alone but her true skills were revealed in due time. (Just like Wario who was once considered... bad)

Eh I digress. Good topic. Ness Matchups are pretty decent I guess.

But Brawl Zelda > Melee Zelda, still.......

 

[_clinton]

See the thing is... Zelda is pretty terrible in Brawl. I mean she was higher up on steam of her mains alone but her true skills were revealed in due time. (Just like Wario who was once considered... bad)

Eh I digress. Good topic. Ness Matchups are pretty decent I guess.

Overall the average so far for all of them is 50 actually. Of course we don't have ratios for everyone and I think that overall Ness has lower than a 50, but that is just me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7221324#post7221324

Link boards want to have a chat about Ness, come on ever.

 

[Yink]

Many thanks, I'll stop by.

 

[P.I.E.]

o.o umm, in my opinion, ness's biggest challenge is GnW, I dunno, maybe its just a friend of mine rlly pwns with him, but i have one question: are broken characters always at the top of a tier list?

 

[ViceGrip]

Yes broken characters are always at the top of a tier list haha. There hasn't been a character that has been defined as 'broken' in brawl. Metaknight is the closest thing to being broken without meeting criteria for being bannable. It's pretty frustrating but that's how it is (not that i want MK banned, just the fact that he's just so close to being bannable-but not quite). As for Gaw you just need to know how to fight him. If you have the matchup down and know basically what to do/ not to do then he's one of Ness's best Matchups in high tier.

 

[Uffe]

Mr. Game & Watch is pretty difficult for me, but that's because I don't really come across too many of them. I don't really care about the whole Meta Knight ban/anti-ban anymore. It's not going to happen and I've seen a few Ness' here and there do pretty fair against top MK players, so I'm all set.

 

[_clinton]

Yes broken characters are always at the top of a tier list haha. There hasn't been a character that has been defined as 'broken' in brawl. Metaknight is the closest thing to being broken without meeting criteria for being bannable. It's pretty frustrating but that's how it is (not that i want MK banned, just the fact that he's just so close to being bannable-but not quite). As for Gaw you just need to know how to fight him. If you have the matchup down and know basically what to do/ not to do then he's one of Ness's best Matchups in high tier.

Any details?

 

[ViceGrip]

Dun we do that in MU discussion? i can do specific gaw MU stuff if you'd like here though.

 

[Neon Ness]

Yes broken characters are always at the top of a tier list haha. There hasn't been a character that has been defined as 'broken' in brawl. Metaknight is the closest thing to being broken without meeting criteria for being bannable. It's pretty frustrating but that's how it is (not that i want MK banned, just the fact that he's just so close to being bannable-but not quite). As for Gaw you just need to know how to fight him. If you have the matchup down and know basically what to do/ not to do then he's one of Ness's best Matchups in high tier.

I'm not sure Meta Knight is close to being broken. He doesn't break any rules (in standard play, where IDC isn't allowed). He just vastly outclasses the other characters in a lot of areas.

Ice Climbers I would consider broken or the closest ones to it, because they actually do have something that breaks the rules of the game.

In general terms, in this game (like most other fighters) the function of a throw is to override a shield/block position and cause damage. The function of a throw is NOT to leave your opponent helpless and take an entire stock; however, theirs does. Not only that, it works against every character in the game.

Now I know that it's not guaranteed because of human error during the CG/you have to grab them first, but the fact that it exists still breaks the rule of what a 'grab' is. Hence broken. To a lesser extent you could consider Marth, D3, Pikachu etc. broken if you wanted since they also have this, but I personally don't because theirs doesn't work on everyone, only a few characters. But the concept is still there.

I think people throw the word broken around a bit much, or maybe my definition is a bit off from other people's...

 

[Bartolon]

Lets go To R.O.B he's a *****

 

[Yink]

Lets go To R.O.B he's a *****

asdfjkl but we're going from bottom to top tier ..

 

[Bartolon]

But there hasn't been any discussion lately =(

 

[Yink]

But there hasn't been any discussion lately =(

Well how about I start it up after finals (which are this week btw). Then I'll have all the time in the world.

All I ask is that we really get some Nessers who contribute.

 

[Bartolon]

Okay! =DDDDD

 

[-LzR-]

No 30-70 Matchups are you kidding me?

 

[Eagleye893]

marth will be 30-70... no doubt about that.... maybe even worse....

truly, defensive marths are a ***** to fight.

 

[Bartolon]

Nah, Marth is pretty easy

 

[Yink]

No 30-70 Matchups are you kidding me?

I really love it when people look at the MUs and notice that. It makes me really angry that whoever started this before me really had this feeling that Ness doesn't suck as much as he does.

He might not entirely suck but he's definitely going to have 30-70 MUs.

Though MU ratios don't actually mean it's the whole topic. People need to focus more on what to do than a number.

 

[_clinton]

He might not entirely suck but he's definitely going to have 30-70 MUs.

May I get your opinion on what they are for you?

 

[oOTjayOo]

I really love it when people look at the MUs and notice that. It makes me really angry that whoever started this before me really had this feeling that Ness doesn't suck as much as he does.

He might not entirely suck but he's definitely going to have 30-70 MUs.

Though MU ratios don't actually mean it's the whole topic. People need to focus more on what to do than a number.

The only 30 70 MU Ness has to me is marth... With the grab that is. Thats it. Gnw is still 60 40 to me.

 

[Eagleye893]

I really love it when people look at the MUs and notice that. It makes me really angry that whoever started this before me really had this feeling that Ness doesn't suck as much as he does.

He might not entirely suck but he's definitely going to have 30-70 MUs.

Though MU ratios don't actually mean it's the whole topic. People need to focus more on what to do than a number.

I know the number isn't the entire matchup.... I'm basing this off of my friend's marth, which is extremely defensive and can (most of the time) kill my ness... sure he has one stock left almost all the time, meaning I don't go down without a fight, but it still is crippling to see him win consistently.... He does abuse the grab all the time though... I'm like ****!!!! WTH!! I bet if he didn't go so gay-ly, I could win... Even though I air-break the grab a lot, it still racks up enough to make my momentum throughout the match come to a stop....

My friend basically does anything to counter who I play. friendlies at his house involve me going ness and him going marth... I switch to kirby to try and see how it matches his marth, but he switches to mario (under the assumption that he can continually cape me...). other than that, my seconds are non-existent...

I tried picking up everyone other than those two, and have failed miserably... Ganon is too low, and I would rather focus on him in melee... CF is also my new melee man... I've restricted ness and kirby to brawl usage...

 

[Yink]

May I get your opinion on what they are for you?

They're not all 30-70s, but they fall in that area. I'd put Marth at 30-70 (believe me just because they can't use the death grab doesn't mean you're in luck. Like eagle said, good and defensive Marths are very obnoxious), GnW at 35-65 and MK at 35-65.

Once again these are approximations, ratios are never set in stone.

 

[_clinton]

They're not all 30-70s, but they fall in that area. I'd put Marth at 30-70 (believe me just because they can't use the death grab doesn't mean you're in luck. Like eagle said, good and defensive Marths are very obnoxious), GnW at 35-65 and MK at 35-65.

Once again these are approximations, ratios are never set in stone.

Good MKs (and if there is one match where I feel I have good exp with it is MK thanks to MK users like Sanoscy) that know their stuff are by far worse than good Marths that do IMO, but maybe that is just me.

If there is one thing I like about Ness it's that somethings like very good PK Thunder use (for one example) is very good at turning far too defensive players into possibly being more offensive IMO because there is no way Ness is going to flat out beat those three characters you mentioned by being mostly purely offensive (like every Ness wants to be but can't of course be in practice) as well.

And of course all three have some wicked stuff they can do to Ness with their grabs that can lead to KOs (G&W's being the most evil of them all IMO even if his is the only one that isn't abusing Ness' frame trap from a grab release).

And all three have some fun ways of eating Ness for when it comes to recovery in some special way or so as well, so yeah while I agree that the three beat Ness (to certain amounts), I don't think Marth is the worst of them.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think Ness sucks. My irl friend mains Ness. He is **** good with him. IMO Rob has at least 60-40 something advantage against him. Ness has gl range, Rob has stupid long range. Also Rob can outspam Ness. And Nes so can't recover in this MU. Thought Rob doesn't have totally broken moves against Ness. Just get throught those ftilts I guess.

 

[oOTjayOo]

I don't think Ness sucks. My irl friend mains Ness. He is **** good with him. IMO Rob has at least 60-40 something advantage against him. Ness has gl range, Rob has stupid long range. Also Rob can outspam Ness. And Nes so can't recover in this MU. Thought Rob doesn't have totally broken moves against Ness. Just get throught those ftilts I guess.

Rob vs Ness 60 40? TL is 60 40 vs ness and hes a pain. Rob is not that good against Ness to have a 60 40 imo. TL's way worse. Ness an approach Rob. He cannot approach TL very well and he is forced to. Ness does not have approach Rob. Just know the difference between Gyro and his Beam.

 

[Bartolon]

imo ness vs TL is 55-45 for TL he's a ***** though. ROB is 60-40 for ROB imo

 

[oOTjayOo]

imo ness vs TL is 55-45 for TL he's a ***** though. ROB is 60-40 for ROB imo

I dont really get how. Rob is just as easy to bash off stage as Ness in that matchup.

 

[-LzR-]

How are you going to bash Rob offstage? He has stupid range on his gtfo moves and only good move against Rob is usually fair. Also, if Rob doesn't approach and Ness tries to use a projectile, we shoot a laser to interrupt it. So if we have an advantage, we can just stand there. Also Ness has no ground game in this MU, all of them are either too slow or don't have range, forcing Ness to air, which isn't a big problem since Ness is really good in the air, but I just find Rob's options to be able to intercept Ness very well. Well I think the MU is actually Ness's advantage on Brinstar (Correct me if this is only good stage for Lucas) or Delfino, but on most stages, it's 60-40 and Rob's will ban those stages whenever possible.

 

[Eagleye893]

Considering I can get in dtilt trips on my friends marth that is extremely defensive and uses the grab basically any time I approach, I think I can find a way to get in on the ground against a rob... But I know rob will be harder to get to.

I never doubt an action's possibility, but I instead rate percentage-wise how frequently things will or won't work. Sure it may not be easy for some things to be done, but that doesn't make it impossible.