PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Chuee]

We got dair SON

Chuee your soooooo boh

Dair?
That slow thing?
Good luck beating squirtles really fast Uair with slow ole Dair.

 

[Yink]

I know this information was old, which is why i offered my ratios. I thought by the title of this thread "Various Discussions" meant i could come in and offer my opinion.

Forgive me, you can but we set up threads for it. We just use this now for the older discussions, I suppose you guys can keep talking about it if you really want to. I have no real problem with it.

 

[Bartolon]

lol I don't think that squirtle is gonna risk to be under ness offstage

 

[Magik0722]

No dair is a legitimate way to get back on the stage with ness if you can time it right. Just have to make sure you dont get any landing lag with it, as thatll lead to the chaingrab. Also its pretty hard to recover that high in the matchup.

 

[oOTjayOo]

70 30 charizard?
Charizard moves foward a long distance when chain grabbing Ness.
Other than that Charizard has nothing on Ness.
Ness and Mk get chain grabed. Doesnt mean you completly have a advantage against them.

also on the squirtle MU thing id probably say thats like 60 40 squirtle or 65 35. Mostly 60 40. I have had more problems with GNW than squirtle. loool
What bart said. A good Ness doesnt get hit by water alot. That means stupid gimicks wont benifit all the time.
Other than that squirtle being able to small step chain grab Ness same thing with what i said about charizard. Ness is not easy to grab. He is not on the ground all the time and is almost never shield grabed. Getting shield grabed with Ness means uhave bad spacing.
Squirtle only matches Ness Air game because his aireals come out quicker. Just think ahead and use fair at the right time. If you cant just do a aireal out of shield.

Squirtles knock back is also garbage if you talking about gimping game on Ness. His Dgrab sends Ness upward to the left or right which way u grabed him. Thats upwardly pointed so its not Left or right.
Squirtles Fsmash is thet best bet he has to actually knock Ness far enough back Left or right to gimp him.
Squirtles Usmash sends characters straight up.

 

[Magik0722]

at low percents a landed fair/bair to grab is a true combo.

I dont see how you can possibly miss a water gun on a offstage ness, which is where it mattters.

Charizrd doesnt move forward too much, its quite short, also it leads to dtilt a powerful ko move and it would be happening at the edge of the stage.

 

[oOTjayOo]

Ness spaces out charizard really well. I dont think he will be getting grabed.

 

[Magik0722]

Charizard has the second longest nontether grab in the game just slightly under dedede. So are you saying that ness can space so well that he will never be grabbed by almost the entire cast?

 

[oOTjayOo]

Ness aireal mobility > his grab range. Its pretty easy to annoy Charizard. DDD is harder because he can put up with Ness with his range and Aireal moves. Pretty obvious that the only thing charizard will ever have on Ness is Rock smash if timed right and his grab if he can grab us which probably wont happen alot. If we are smart we know how to avoid this. Charizard grabing us is not the end of the world. Just dont get grabed and thats pretty easy because its charizard. Fight charizard Near the ledge. When ledge released just try to get to the ledge and not fall off. Charizard cannot gimp ness very well. Our aireals > his aireals for sure. Rising Fair Rising Nair. Its like a wall

 

[Chuee]

Ness isn't Wario.
He will get grabbed, and when he does Ness takes on a lot of damage.
Not to mention Zards flamethrower is good at gimping Ness offstage.

 

[oOTjayOo]

what charizard goes offstage to use flamethrower.thats lol.
Also Ness players should be safe about not getting grab im pretty sure Ness is pretty much overall a character for spacing.

Go in to charizard approch him and Fair him while retreating. If charizard rushes in its obvious hes gona grab or pivot. spot dodge nair him.

If Ness has his back to the ledge. abuse Nair. Nair comes out quicker than most of charizards moves and it covers his body.

Ness does have enough aireal mobility to not get grabed. Its Ness the air is his homeland
also flame thrower if charizard uses it on stage to gimp ness offstage just aim for the ledge. when using pk thunder.

 

[Chuee]

what charizard goes offstage to use flamethrower.thats lol.
really.......... Zard uses Flamthrower onstage when you're offstage. It eats your DJ forcing you to use PKT2.

Also Ness players should be safe about not getting grab im pretty sure Ness is pretty much overall a character for spacing.
Ness is good at avoiding grabs but against a good Zard he will get grabbed. I'll say this again. Ness ain't no Wario.

Go in to charizard approch him and Fair him while retreating. If charizard rushes in its obvious hes gona grab or pivot. spot dodge nair him.
Yes because all Zards will always use grab up close. No point in trying to use Jab or anything else.

If Ness has his back to the ledge. abuse Nair. Nair comes out quicker than most of charizards moves and it covers his body.
Zard will jab you or grab if you try this. Grab you then gimp you.

Ness does have enough aireal mobility to not get grabed.
It doesn't matter how good your aireal mobility is. Zard will grab you sooner or later.
Its Ness the air is his homeland
also flame thrower if charizard uses it on stage to gimp ness offstage just aim for the ledge. when using pk thunder.
Thats why Zard grabs the ledge.

10 character

 

[Bartolon]

Psi magnetttttt

 

[Chuee]

Sooner or later you have to use your DJ if you want to recover.

 

[Bartolon]

The flame won't reach as far then

 

[Magik0722]

You know charizard has more horizontal aerial mobility than ness right? and his bair at worst trades with all of ness's attacks. Besides its not like ness's aerial mobility is amazing, when you have charizards grab range its pretty easy to get the grab.
Charizard also has his Fair for spacing, and will damage you past Ness's fair.

 

[Chuee]

The flame won't reach as far then

Ok, in the time it takes the flame to shorten, you'll already be low enough to where your DJ won't get you back onstage.

 

[Bartolon]

It's funny you guys are only looking at the so called "BAD THINGS"
Not even thinking what ness can do to him but yeah.


I heard charizard has lag after he did the flamethrower... chuee...

I can't discuss with chuee srsly, no offense, but from now on I won't answer your posts anymore (for this MU)

 

[Chuee]

Ness doesn't have that much on Zard except maybe juggling.
I heard Ness' PKT2 takes a while before he can hit himself.

I've already discussed the PT MU with Reflex, it's bad for Ness.

 

[Bartolon]

Man I can't ignore this >.<

I heard lucas his PKT takes even longer so the MU has to be worse (logic)

I've already discussed the PT MU with Reflex, it's bad for Ness.

I discussed it with my nephew he said the same thing. (<.<)
I am not saying it's NOT bad for ness. It is, but your making stupid assumptions.

 

[Chuee]

Man I can't ignore this >.<

I heard lucas his PKT takes even longer so the MU has to be worse (logic)

You said that Zard had lag on ending ft, I said it takes awhile for Ness to use PKT2. Which means that Zard can grab the ledge in that time and punish you.



I discussed it with my nephew he said the same thing. (<.<)
I am not saying it's NOT bad for ness. It is but your making stupid assumptions.

Bad as in hard counter bad.
Im making stupid assumptions?
k, but Zard's ft still > Ness DJ, and Magnet won't save you.

 

[Bartolon]

Your soooo ignorant. If it wouldn't save us the MU would be way worse, just sayin

 

[Ayoub]

What move does Charizad have anyway to get Ness in a position that he has to recover from the lower side of the stage, so Charizard can 'gimp' him with FT.

 

[Magik0722]

grab release chain grab all the way to the ledge and dtilt or even just another grounded grab release, a grounded grab release at the edge forces you to either double jump or use up B, no other way is possible.

 

[Ayoub]

You can DI the dtilt.

And the way you overrate your grab-release shenanigans makes the MU look 100-0.
I heard you can grab-release ² fsmash Ness with Charizard. =)

 

[Magik0722]

No i think i rate it exactly how it is. True fact: Ness can get chaingrabbed to the ledge and then released so he has to doublejump or use his upB to recover, the doublejump after the grab release will rise just about where the ledge is.

This makes it easy for charizard to get gimps.

 

[Chuee]

Your soooo ignorant. If it wouldn't save us the MU would be way worse, just sayin

Stop making this so difficult =/
When Zard GRs you off the stage Ness has 3 options.
1. DJ
2. PKT2 immediately
3. Magnet (if he thinks Zard will ft

If Ness decides to DJ he can either
1. DJ Fair
2. DJ AD
If you use DJ Fair Zard will shield it and uses something OoS.
If you use DJ AD hopefully you'll get lucky and he'll think you'll use Fair. If he predicts the AD you're ****ed.
Not to mention ft beats both options.

If ness decides to PKT2 immediately, Zard can drop down and Dair spike you if he has enough time, or he can grab the ledge and punish your landing. Oh, and he can use ft to mess with you a little bit but it's not better than the 2 above options.

If you decide to use magnet Zard will ft the magnet and while he does that Ness while drop further and further down until he reaches a point to where he's out of the ft range but is too far down to get back solely on his DJ. So Ness is forced to use his DJ and then use PKT2 to hopefully get back. Now when he does this Zard will be done with ft, he'll have ended that once you used your DJ. Anyways, so Ness uses PKT2, and Zard can either
1. drop down Dair
2. drop down & take the PKT hit
3. Grab the ledge & punish his landing.

 

[Ayoub]

And how does he gimp him after a grabrelease? I'm curious.

 

[Bartolon]

We can do a psi magnet, make our way to the right and PKT2 into your flamethrower SDI out of it and pull a uair on you.

Some advanced stuff

 

[Ayoub]

^ Yeah who cares about the FT if Ness can jump in it and SDI out of it, lol.

Chue - He can also DJ-Nair/Uair/Dair.

 

[Chuee]

We can do a psi magnet, make our way to the right and PKT2 into your flamethrower SDI out of it and pull a uair on you.

Some advanced stuff

..........................................wat
First off be more specific with "right", theres 2 sides on each stage, right isn't the same for both.
Second, Zard will stop using ft when you start PKT.
EDIT:
Those aren't nearly as good as the options I listed.
DJ Nair has too little range to be very effective, and it's hitbox doesn't stay out anywhere near as long as Fair's does.
DJ Uair, is basically the same as nair
DJ Dair is a poor option against shield.

 

[Bartolon]

The opposite side where charizard stands*

If he stops using it we can possibly PKT2 to the ledge or PKT2 on a platform or some sort.

 

[Ayoub]

Well if you grabrelease him at the edge, and you plan on doing FT. He will just jump in (without PKT²) and SDI out of it asap as Bartolon said, then punish your FT's ending lag with whatever.

 

[Magik0722]

You cant sdi through the flamethrower, the first hit barely grazes you and doesnt really have any knockback, all it does is stop your DJ

 

[Ayoub]

You can SDI through FT, try it out yourself. Weak argument.

Anything else?

 

[Bartolon]

Meh, record a vid vs A KNOWN (and good) ness player and prove that this is gonna work <.<

 

[Ayoub]

The edit button is so full of fun.

 

[Bartolon]

Edit noob...

 

[oOTjayOo]

lol. Charizard gimping Ness. most of ness aireals are faster than his whole move set. Rising Fair. once again. good enough to keep from getting gimped when knocked off stage.
@ Chuee

Wario? Think of this more as a Marth thing. Marth = spacing and annoyance.

Also its really stupid saying that the Mu of Ness vs charizard is even over 60 40.
Know why?

Charizard is not marth.

Marth is better Faster and has lots of mobility.

Charizard is extreamly slow. Like i said the only thing Charizard has on Ness is his grab.
He challange our air game in no way other than rock smash which comes out slow as well.

Also charizard going OoS? What does he have Oos thats fast enough to punish Ness when he spaces.
Also what ur saying is pretty much the same thing when ness gets charizard offstage. Also ive tested it with a friend. Ness Fair > Charizard Bair. Ness Nair > Charizards aireals. Nair comes out way to fast.
And my friend tried to grab me with Zard when i spaced Fair. Couldnt grab really.
Charizards sluggish jumps and up b make him get gimped as well. Hes open for pk thunder.
If charizards close enough offstage to the ledge he would probably just up b our pkt 2. So edge hog him. If he far away from ledge offstage abuse him with pk thnder.

Another thing. Marth does things that make u shield so he grabs u.
Charizard doesent because hes to busy taking it from other characters. Hes just like bowser. Lucky if he gets a grab in. Overall most characters have a move thats faster than him to abuse on him.

This mu prolly 50 50 still because of the grab if he gets it in. Obvs without the grab Ness destroys charizard. Like he does bowser. Bowser cannot handle the pressure sometimes but he can handle it better than charizard due to his better OoS options. Charizard just gets pressured worse.


Also for the sooner or later thing about being grabed.
Its possible to avoid a grab the whole match. Its possible to get grabed its possible to not get grabed.

Yea jump in Flame thrower and Sdi out. To the stage.

 

[Chuee]

LOL ok lets see here.

lol. Charizard gimping Ness. most of ness aireals are faster than his whole move set. Rising Fair. once again. good enough to keep from getting gimped when knocked off stage.
Are you blind? I clearly said Zards ft > DJ Fair.

@ Chuee

Wario? Think of this more as a Marth thing. Marth = spacing and annoyance.
Don't compare MUs

Also its really stupid saying that the Mu of Ness vs charizard is even over 60 40.
Know why?
See above

Charizard is not marth.
See above
Marth is better Faster and has lots of mobility.
See above

Charizard is extreamly slow. Like i said the only thing Charizard has on Ness is his grab.
He challange our air game in no way other than rock smash which comes out slow as well.
Terrible misunderstanding. Just because a character moves slow doesn't mean they're slow.
Zards jab is very fast, and most of his other moves aren't too slow.
False, Zard gimps Ness already been over that.
lol, Magik already said that the some of Zards aireals beat out or clank with Ness'.

Also charizard going OoS? What does he have Oos thats fast enough to punish Ness when he spaces.
Bair, jab, grab.
Also what ur saying is pretty much the same thing when ness gets charizard offstage.
Yeah, because Ness has a flamethrower and three air jumps and a glide.

Also ive tested it with a friend. Ness Fair > Charizard Bair. Ness Nair > Charizards aireals.
You test wrong.
Nair comes out way to fast.
Nair comes out on frame 5.
And my friend tried to grab me with Zard when i spaced Fair. Couldnt grab really.
Yeah, thats not DJ Fair offstage though
Charizards sluggish jumps and up b make him get gimped as well. Hes open for pk thunder.
PKT gives Zard, or anyone, basically a free ticket back. It sends Zard higher.
If charizards close enough offstage to the ledge he would probably just up b our pkt 2. So edge hog him. If he far away from ledge offstage abuse him with pk thnder.
Zard has 3 jumps, rarely should he actually have to use up-b with good DI and even if he does he can wait until your invincibility wears off and use up-b.

Another thing. Marth does things that make u shield so he grabs u.
............................................... Marth can't make you shield.
Charizard doesent because hes to busy taking it from other characters. Hes just like bowser. Lucky if he gets a grab in. Overall most characters have a move thats faster than him to abuse on him.
You're terribly misinformed. Zard lucky if ever gets a grab? He has the second longest non-tether grab in the game lol.

This mu prolly 50 50 still because of the grab if he gets it in.
No it's really not even lol
Obvs without the grab Ness destroys charizard.
lol no.
Like he does bowser.
Once again TERRIBLY wrong. I used to play Bowser and know a lot about him, and in no way shape or form does even come close to ****** Bowser. In fact, the MU's probably in Bowser's favor.
Bowser cannot handle the pressure sometimes but he can handle it better than charizard due to his better OoS options.
Which is why Bowser ftilts you before you can Fair.
Charizard just gets pressured worse.
Zards aireals can trade hits with Ness'

10 character.