PK Cross: An Advanced Ness Guide

[Luigi player]

Really gread guide on Ness' ATs! I have a question though, what is PKT2?!

PK thunder 2? lol. I can't think of anything...

Also, I can't seem to PK jump over and over without screwing up. I mean it's pretty hard to pull of. It only works sometimes... any tips?

 

[Tyr_03]

You spelled Dash Mechanics wrong in green. It's driving me crazy.

 

[Earthbound360]

okay I'll fix that Tyr
PKT2=PK Thunder 2 yup. PKT2 is when you hit Ness with PKT.

 

[Uffe]

Actually the point of swell Surprise is to hit them with the tail long enough so either they can't avoid it or forget to input the right controls again after being hit. Sometimes if you use pk thunder on the ground they might accidentally roll into the tail. This can lead to it.

Also it can be done in air with the help of gravity pulling the opponents down on the tail. Chances are they won't air dodge or won't get out of it.

Yeah, the tail of the PKT doesn't have to fully strike for the Swell Surprise to work. The tail itself pretty much stuns and most likely makes it impossible for the opponent to escape. So once that happens they're pretty much screwed. I've had some people try and dair me only to find themselves being the one to die because they got stunned and then struck.

Also, I wanted to thank you EB360 for using my video as a visual for "Ledgebending". I've been in here a few times and I guess I have missed that. XD I just wanted to say thanks.

 

[Ref]

Yeah, the tail of the PKT doesn't have to fully strike for the Swell Surprise to work. The tail itself pretty much stuns and most likely makes it impossible for the opponent to escape

You just made me miss Melee's Pk Thunder Hit stun..

 

[Earthbound360]

Melee's PKT stun wasnt as good for Swell surprises, but better for recovery gimping.
And sure thing Uffe.

Swell surprises just have to hit with the tail. The stun is usually long enough for a PKT2 to strike somehwere in the tail.

Oh, and Luigi Player, PK Jumping is tricky at first, but it becomes easier over time. Just jump and hold forward, then try pressing B and jump at the same time. after htat, it's just practice and timing.

 

[Luigi player]

I already saw a video about PKT2 and then I knew what was ment, but thanks anyway ^^

PK Jump is too hard, it works maybe 1 out of 7 times and that's too low to be useable...
I doubt that I'll get it to work more than that (well, maybe if I'm lucky), because I'm pretty sure I press them at the same time... Does it really have to be at the same milisecond? XD Or one button lightly sooner? Maybe I should train it at lower speed at first, but I still doubt that it will work more often then...

Edit: Okay I just tried a bit (at normal speed) and I guess it's 1 out of 2-3 times, but in a real fight I should count on it so it has to always work >>

 

[Earthbound360]

Yse, like I said it's hard at first, but I've gotten it down pretty much all the way and it's helped me massively on ranged opponents like Samus and Falco.

Technically, its jump you're pressing first, then B, but it's like a one frame division.

 

[Luigi player]

Ah, okay, I guess I have to keep trying ^^ btw, I love the B-sticked PK jump, really useful =D

If I just wouldn't always press the C-Stick in a wrong direction x.x I sometimes mess up and use PSI Magnet or PKT -.-

 

[Uffe]

Hey, EB360! I have a video. I don't know if you'll want to use it, though. I mean it's pretty basic now that I think about it. But I thought I'd show you anyway.

The Swing Set

I apologize if you placed this in your topic and I some how missed it. If you haven't it's pretty much a fair to bair attack that probably isn't all that useful anyway.

 

[PKSkyler]

I cant really PK Jump.... Ive tried to but I cant...I can firebound(is that the "Defensive PK Fire" where you get pushed back a bit in the air before you PK Fire?) though and yeah I use B-Stick....also I can sometimes do the thing where you run and turn around and PK Fire but its rare in a battle I ussually end up jumping for some reason (yes I am b-sticking)

Also this name is cool, but its kinda confusing too....like if I say "Man the PK Cross Guide helped me get better at stutter stepping " Someone will be like "its PK FLASH YOU IDIOT OMFG NOOOOOOOB11!1!"

and then im like "Yeah I know its just the name of the guide." and this person will still be like "Nope the guide is PK FLASH!! I PLAYED URFBOWNED SO GTFO!"

Finally, didnt you tell me that the Nikita could be bat reflected? I tried it on a Snake and the Nikita blew up in my face (i dont think it did damage tho.)

 

[Earthbound360]

Wow you can Firebound but not PK Jump? That's wierd
If you can firebound, just try the basics of the firebound, only press B instead of the C-stick. Both are useful Firebound for defense and PK Jump for offense.

I know the name is confusing, but I get a kick out of it
Some guy on youtube did it already He said something about PK Flash and PK Cross and it turnd into an argument XD
Maybe pople should say the PK Cross AT guide

Thanks Uffe, but yeah, its already in the guide. That's basically an aerial rise with the bair and fair. I will put a note about it however since it can be useful.

 

[Fhed]

heavens descent-pretty interesting and useful against jugglers

hey earthbound 360, ive been trying to do Double Aerial Shuffle. But i cant do it. Care to demonstrate???

 

[Earthbound360]

Yeah, I was planning on making the video. I will, dont worry. I'll even have some information on uses.

 

[Uffe]

Gah! You need a video on your ISJR! :D I'm going to try this SJR. I was trying it a few days back and I might have it down already, but I can't say for sure.

 

[Earthbound360]

There is a video on SJR!

 

[James177]

I figured out that you can actually move directions while b sticking with the PK magnet, not sure of it's usefulness(bat spacing comes to mind) Just try it. OMG just fiqured out you can fake out with it. Not only stops the the jump and momentum, but pushes you the opposite direction.

 

[Masky]

speaking of today's update, fair goes through pokemon stadium melee (every ness player should know this!)

 

[Earthbound360]

Yup, it sure does. So does the uair, and it also works on Castle Seige part 1 and Lylat. Also, I updated a double aerial shufle video. Hope it helps, it was at people's request.

 

[AlCaTraz644]

i was doing somethings similar to the pillar spike expect that the enemy is not in the air but hanging on the ledge they still can be pillar spiked though but i think the since the fire goes down right next to where they holding the ledge the fire blocks them to reach the ledge.

IDK hopefully it's of some use to know

 

[ROOOOY!]

Good work on this EB, you sure are dedicated lol.
Yeah I fancy picking up Ness again, as I mained him in Melee.
<3 Ness

 

[Ref]

I'm the reason EB360 did the yo-yo glitch as an update for 7/23. My video made him want to. Or at least I think.

 

[Earthbound360]

lol maybe

 

[smash64]

wow thanks alot i learned alot of stuff thanks to you

 

[James177]

When are you going to put in the Magnet Fake/Check?(b sticked magnet)

 

[Uffe]

Magnet fake? That sounds interesting. Anyway the PKT mindgame "circle" is something I started using after you used it on me a few time. :þ Of course it kind of got outdated while fighting my brother. >< However it's not so useful against his Samus as he'll just fire at me. Anyway I've seen this one used a few times by Ness mainers. You aim your PKT at the opponent and then bring it back and behind you creating this oval shape and I don't know what opponents think when this happens, but you're supposed to PK Jibaku right into them without them expecting it.

Also there's one where it's an eight or infinite shape. You PKT up and then make a 360 angle left or right taking the PKT down and then making another 360 to the opposite direction you first made and then you strike yourself and fly into the opponent. I think I should just post a video of what I mean.

 

[James177]

If you b stick with Ness, the magnet fake will be interesting, using the south-east and south-west notches of the b stick(actually a smidge closer to south) you can stop your momentum(when jumping) and push yourself back, and you will still be facing forward, it took a while to figure the input out, but it's really helpful. I'm pretty sure only one other person knows about it.(guy I tested it on in a few battles) But the earlier cancelled frames can push your opponent back after you land backwards, This helps towards spacing and whatnot, mindgames, you can actually do a full double jump and still magnet fake, And there you have it, the magnet fake.

I could send replays if you would like to see it soon, but I'll see if I can make a vid of it.

 

[Uffe]

oOo. I've done that a few times by accident. I'll have to use this more often because I know it'd be good for mindgames. ;D So the momentum pushes back? If that's the case I can see this being very useful. It sounds almost like Lucas' little wavebounce with his PSIM. However I could never really accomplish that for some reason. I was pretty much using his PKF for spacing anyway.

 

[Earthbound360]

I know about th magnet fake, and I mentioned it under the B-stick section, but I thought the pushback effect was so minimal, and the time that Ness couldnt do anything for so long that I dismissed it as fairly useless. Have you really found uses for it? Because I feel like basic aerial DI can be just as tricky. If you have suggestions, please tell.

 

[James177]

It's mostly used for mind games, but it helps cancel jumps, throwing it in with aerials gets even trickier, and Earthbound, you might be using it at the very beginning of the jump, I tend to use it at the end of a short hop.

 

[Ref]

I dislike the PKT Mindgames section because there are No such things as Pre-set mindgames. All it is is you out smarting your opponent.....

 

[Earthbound360]

But these are general ideas. Experimentation is needed and experience also, but I think giving people some good ideas would help them learn more about PKT and possibly come up with their own strategies to trick opponents.

 

[Gaussis]

I would like to comment about the shield scraping. I'm pretty sure one could lower their shield during the scrape and suffer the tail of PKT.

Also...I have made the thunder go through (yes through) a shield once...

 

[Roller]

I lika teh guide! Nice work. =)

I'ma try that stuff out.

 

[Uffe]

I would like to comment about the shield scraping. I'm pretty sure one could lower their shield during the scrape and suffer the tail of PKT.

Also...I have made the thunder go through (yes through) a shield once...

We've all done this before. It doesn't really make the shield any weaker however. I wish it did.

 

[RoxburyGuy58]

I've got a good one that I'd like to contribute (I saw it in a combo video once). When someone is hanging onto the ledge, if you aim a dair at their hands as their hanging on, it'll spike them! I've even tried it, and it pwns all other ways to could think to edgeguard.

 

[Veril]

Wow, this is a really fantastic thread. Thanks for all of your work Earthbound360!

I also feel B-Sticking is underrated. Ease of use, especially for certain techniques w/ pk fire, should not be discounted. The ability to AutoRAR into a bair helps to make up for the loss of C-stick aerials. *note the "helps"

Most players don't seem to use tap-jump. Why? Probably because it f***s up Utilts... Regardless, I use tap jump, not only for the meteor cancelling (or whatever term we're using for that now), but because it simplifies the execution of some Lucas / Ness B-stick techniques. I won't list the lucas examples as this is a Ness thread.

Firebounding consists of 3 steps: holding forward, pk-fire + double jump. With tap-jump (and B-stick), you can simplify this by limiting weird finger gymnastics. The thumbs do all the work (that sounds somewhat perverse ). Tap jump diagonally forwards (don't release the control stick immediately) + c-stick back = b-sticked (wavebounced) pk-jump. Sweet!

All pk-jump centric techniques are easier (for me) and can be performed more quickly and consistently.

Sorry if this is already posted... I couldn't find any evidence of that.

[Edit: clarified a bit... I think there may be a finer degree of control of the "bounce" and general placement of the character when using the control-stick for the jumping. I've noticed it when using lucas' wave-zap. I'll add more when I understand it a bit better. Or I'll find out nothing and pretend I never said this.]

 

[Uffe]

I've got a good one that I'd like to contribute (I saw it in a combo video once). When someone is hanging onto the ledge, if you aim a dair at their hands as their hanging on, it'll spike them! I've even tried it, and it pwns all other ways to could think to edgeguard.

I did that before. But I like to use his bair when the opponent is on the ledge. It throws them off because their character slams into the side and falls down. I'm going to try that improved PKF technique because PKF itself can pretty much gimp an opponent. Peach and Marth, not so much because they fly through it.

 

[Gaussis]

We've all done this before. It doesn't really make the shield any weaker however. I wish it did.

You miss my point. I was referring to the thunder going through the center of the shield, not the side and I also mentioned putting the shield down (although I'll admit I haven't tested this but I have seen before). I feel we haven't inspected this anomaly enough.

The scrape in the guide explains how the thunder scrapes the shield when it is done on the boundaries of the shield. However, it does not explain when or how it goes through it from the center. I only wanted to clarify that (unless if Earthbound 360 has a different name for that anomaly, which doesn't make sense).

My point: need more research on that subject.

EDIT: You cannot put the shield down. The reason I thought you could was because the tail was able to shield poke and stun when I saw this. Used correctly though, it can wear the shield to a point where you can poke it with other attacks. Applying pressure is key.

 

[Earthbound360]

Hmm Veril, that actually does sound very effective. I will put note of that in the guide. And thanks for th compliment.

Roxburyguy, that's spiking someone on the ledge, and I never really considered it to be "advanced " (however, that term may be controversial as to how many techs are in my thread ^_^') BUT there is something I plan on posting that is heavily related to that. It has to do with the fact that you are not invulnerable on the ledge for extended periods of time. In fact, why not make that todays update?

And Gaussis, sorry, I must have misread the thread. Once we have more information on the subject, and update will be made.