PK Cross: An Advanced Ness Guide

[Uffe]

I was thinking of this update the other day. I do it sometimes. ;D Oh and B-sticking killed me today! D:

EDIT: Hey, EB360, I tried to compile some stuff for the yo-yo. This is just Ness' up smash, though. I'd think his down smash really makes no difference since it's still his yo-yo. Anyway here is a list of things.

Yo-yo + Fireball = Canceled Fireball
Yo-yo + Turnip = Canceled Turnip
Yo-yo + Banana = Canceled Yo-yo (The banana goes through causing Ness to slip)
Yo-yo + Peanut = Canceled Peanut (May drop peanuts for health)
Yo-yo + Egg = Canceled Egg
Yo-yo + Egg Roll = Canceled Egg Roll
Yo-yo + Arrow = Canceled Arrow
Yo-yo + Bombs = Canceled Yo-yo (Ness takes damage)
Yo-yo + Boomerang = Canceled Boomerang
Yo-yo + Needles = Canceled Yo-yo
Yo-yo + Homing Missile = Canceled Homing Missile (Must be timed correctly)
Yo-yo + Super Missile = Canceled Super Missile (Must be timed correctly)
Yo-yo + Charged Shot = Canceled Yo-yo
Yo-yo + Bombs = Canceled Bombs
Yo-yo + Laser = Canceled Yo-yo
Yo-yo + Gyro = Canceled Gyro
Yo-yo + Final Cutter = Canceled Yo-yo (From behind, the yo-yo cancels Final Cutter)
Yo-yo + Mach Tornado = Canceled Mach Tornado (Sometimes cancels the yo-yo)
Yo-yo + Sword Drill = Canceled Yo-yo/Sword Drill (It might depend on who brought out the attack first)
Yo-yo + Waddle Dee/Doo = Canceled Waddle Dee/Doo
Yo-yo + Pikmin = Canceled Pikmin
Yo-yo + Thunder Jolt = Canceled Thunder Jolt
Yo-yo + Shell Roll = Canceled Shell Roll (This causes Squirtle to go the other direction)
Yo-yo + Razor Leaf = Cancelled Razor Leaf
Yo-yo + Aura Sphere = Canceled Aura Sphere (The higher percent Lucario has, the harder it is to cancel)
Yo-yo + Rollout = Canceled Rollout
Yo-yo + PK Thunder = Canceled PK Thunder (This obviously needs to be timed)
Yo-yo + PK Jibaku = Canceled ?
Yo-yo + PK Fire = Canceled PK Fire
Yo-yo + Yo-yo = Nothing (One yo-yo is knocked back and the other makes a full circle)
Yo-yo + Psy Burst = Anything goes (If the yo-yo hits Lucas first, he takes damage. If the yo-yo is near Lucas but doesn't hit him, Ness may possibly take damage)
Yo-yo + Sausage/Fish = Canceled Sausage/Fish
Yo-yo + Pump = Canceled Pump
Yo-yo + Manhole = Canceled Manhole
Yo-yo + Grenade = Anything (The yo-yo goes a full circle and the Grenade falls back slightly)
Yo-yo + Nikita = Canceled Nikita (The missile from the Nikita flies upward. This requires timing)
Yo-yo + Air Spin = Canceled Air Spin (This requires perfect timing. You're better off using another attack)

 

[Masky]

So, PK Throws can't be b-sticked obviously, but they can't be reversed either? I couldn't tell exactly from the wording.

Edit: And Uffe, Needles cancel out usmash? So if a needle hits the yo-yo (and not Ness), Ness instantly exits out of the animation? Seems strange

 

[Earthbound360]

Wow Uffe, thanks for that! I'll be sure to update that into the yo-yo shielding section tommorrow. That's some deep stuff.

Masky, sorry, I mean that like the normal PK Jump, you cant PK Throw backwards. Well you can, but you dont get a boost. But with B reversing, you CAN turn around and do PK Jumps, but since this isnt a B move, you cannot B reverse it meaning you cannot turn it around.

Basically, you cant turn around and PK Throw. My recent matches against ZSS and Diddy Kong players has given me good knowledge of items.

 

[Uffe]

Edit: And Uffe, Needles cancel out usmash? So if a needle hits the yo-yo (and not Ness), Ness instantly exits out of the animation? Seems strange

Well I was by myself. I tried using two controllers to do this since my brother was out. The needles had to be the second hardest, PK Jibaku being the first. XD But anyway I'm not really sure how that one works. Every time I used the yo-yo against the needles, the needles would hit Ness anyway.

Wow Uffe, thanks for that! I'll be sure to update that into the yo-yo shielding section tommorrow. That's some deep stuff.

Also, EB360, about the yo-yo vs Nikita, I wrote that wrong. The Nikita missile goes diagonal and not upward as in straight up. I was going to do this only for projectile but I had to test it on other things as well. Also, the yo-yo can cancel out Sonic's spring if time correctly.

 

[thesage]

I would like to say that one time I was Ness ditto'ing a cpu and my nair clanked with his yo yo which is extremely weird.

 

[Uffe]

Yeah, Ness' yo-yo gets like two hits. Three if the opponent is thrown in the correct direction. This happens when the opponent bumps into his charged yo-yo, when he releases and if lucky the opponent flies the direction of the yo-yos full circle. Same thing can be applied when anybody hits Ness' yo-yo when it's being charged. This is actually often seen in his up smash. The charged yo-yo when hit will pull inward towards Ness and when released outward towards the opponent thus striking them. I've done this a few times with my brother and friends.

I think I'll test the yo-yo more to see what other attacks have priority over it. Ike's sword pretty much kills his yo-yo. I'm not sure about his d-tilt, though. I'm not sure about most characters d-tilts. But I'm assuming that tilts can't counter smashes. I could be wrong, though. I could just be basing this off what I want to believe seeing a tilt vs a smash seems like it'd be swallowed up. Anyway enough talk for now. I'm out. But I will do more research for Ness m'boy.

 

[thesage]

Yeah, Ness' yo-yo gets like two hits. Three if the opponent is thrown in the correct direction. This happens when the opponent bumps into his charged yo-yo, when he releases and if lucky the opponent flies the direction of the yo-yos full circle. Same thing can be applied when anybody hits Ness' yo-yo when it's being charged. This is actually often seen in his up smash. The charged yo-yo when hit will pull inward towards Ness and when released outward towards the opponent thus striking them. I've done this a few times with my brother and friends.

I think I'll test the yo-yo more to see what other attacks have priority over it. Ike's sword pretty much kills his yo-yo. I'm not sure about his d-tilt, though. I'm not sure about most characters d-tilts. But I'm assuming that tilts can't counter smashes. I could be wrong, though. I could just be basing this off what I want to believe seeing a tilt vs a smash seems like it'd be swallowed up. Anyway enough talk for now. I'm out. But I will do more research for Ness m'boy.

I don't think you understood what I said. Areals are not supposed to clank with ground attacks. At least that was the rule in melee. Either that was changed or Ness' u-smash is considered a very high priority projectile, that can't be reflected.

 

[Ref]

Actually the B air Clanks with the yo yo too... The N air Clanks with the yo yo. In melee Aerials never clanked with ground attacks. I think Ness' yo yo is now a very high priority projectile that can't be reflected like Thesage said.

It's unlikely that that rule has been changed considering that I never seen aerials clank with any other ground attacks.

 

[Uffe]

I don't think you understood what I said. Areals are not supposed to clank with ground attacks. At least that was the rule in melee. Either that was changed or Ness' u-smash is considered a very high priority projectile, that can't be reflected.

Did the clank make a sound or are you calling that clear hit a clank? If it made a sound, then that's weird. I'll just do this so there isn't any confusion. I'm Ness A and I placed myself against Ness B. Ness B used his d-smash and Ness A used his nair. Ness B's yo-yo pulled inward and and Ness A wasn't harmed. However when Ness B released the yo-yo charge, Ness A got hurt. When I did this there was no clank but a clear bubble showing that both attacks weren't canceled but at the same time were. However there was no clank sound if that's what you're saying.

EDIT: By the way, EB, thanks for the Item Technique list. This will be helpful for me against those brawlers who like using items. Xþ

 

[Gaussis]

I don't think you understood what I said. Areals are not supposed to clank with ground attacks. At least that was the rule in melee. Either that was changed or Ness' u-smash is considered a very high priority projectile, that can't be reflected.

I think I have seen ground attacks clash with aerials. The more noticeable ones should be the disjointed attacks, although I am not sure about it. The yo-yo is the only one I know for sure that clashes with other aerials. There are some, like Falco's nair for example, that outprioritizes the yo-yo however.

 

[PCHU]

I know this has nothing to do with your discussion at hand, but I found that Ness can sometimes triple bair someone.
I don't know if this has been found or not, but I think it's pretty useful.
It tears away at its killing power, but mindgames take bair's place.
Just thought I'd make a contribution.

And can you do a sort of Ken combo with Ness's fair, like SH fair FF repeat then meteor at the end, or can't you?
I don't really have the time to test such things, so help me out here.

 

[Ref]

Well my mentioning to EB360 made the last update before his camping trip. Well I was wondering what he'd do with that information.

 

[Earthbound360]

lol I got the name from Lucario's Extreme shift which is he same thing

 

[Ref]

Also theres C-Nikita... From snakes Forward B controlled by the C stick. I was thinking of the C stick control back in Melee. I think it works in Melee. I never tried it.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ah, I should have guessed that. Probably Din's Fire shifting also.

 

[Uffe]

I know this has nothing to do with your discussion at hand, but I found that Ness can sometimes triple bair someone.

Try a quad bair. Doing it is easy. Doing it on a moving opponent isn't. There are probably many ways to doing this, but here's what I got.

Bair > bair > SH > bair > bair
Bair > bair > bair > SH bair

Either way there is a time where you will have to land. If you're high enough you can land three bairs in a row. You might be able to rise yourself. I don't know. It's just a thought. But if you're near the ground then you can land two, jump and then do two more.

 

[CometStar]

I miss the daily updates already :/

 

[Ref]

I miss them too...

 

[swypa101]

I know this has nothing to do with your discussion at hand, but I found that Ness can sometimes triple bair someone.

i always double B-air.. but i never tried triple unless u jump twice cus i always double B-air on a short hop

 

[Eagle]

I'm a new Ness player and whilst looking through this thread I noticed the short hop aerial shuffle thing. How do you do that?! Seriously, the only double aerials I can ever seem to pull of is 2 Nairs. :l

Also.. I know how to PK Jump, but for me to do it I need to put my right index finger on the b button and my middle finger on the jump button. Its quite irritable. Anyone else have an easier way to perform the PK jump?

 

[Uffe]

I'm a new Ness player and whilst looking through this thread I noticed the short hop aerial shuffle thing. How do you do that?! Seriously, the only double aerials I can ever seem to pull of is 2 Nairs. :l

Also.. I know how to PK Jump, but for me to do it I need to put my right index finger on the b button and my middle finger on the jump button. Its quite irritable. Anyone else have an easier way to perform the PK jump?

I'm not exactly sure what an aerial shuffle is, but I think it's when you short hop and nair. Then you got a double aerial shuffle and that's when you nair twice. You'll nair the first one and then come down close enough to nair again. Sometimes if the enemy flies up, go and strike him with a fair. Same with aerial rise. At least think this is an aerial rise. You'll short hop into the opponent using fair and the do another jump and continue using your fair and you should rise as you do this with your second jump.

As for PK Jumping, I can't really say how to do this. I've done it a few times and it's very useful, but I can't seem to pull it off without doing it accidentally. I go with Firebound anyway. Much more range. But I suppose PK Jumping is pretty useful for those stages with platforms.

 

[Duster]

I'm a new Ness player and whilst looking through this thread I noticed the short hop aerial shuffle thing. How do you do that?! Seriously, the only double aerials I can ever seem to pull of is 2 Nairs. :l

Also.. I know how to PK Jump, but for me to do it I need to put my right index finger on the b button and my middle finger on the jump button. Its quite irritable. Anyone else have an easier way to perform the PK jump?

I'm kinda in the same boat. I just practiced the double aerial shuffle today, and my advice is either to use the trick EB360 suggested (set R button to attack) or, what worked better for me, to place your thumb between the X button and the A button and hit them in rapid succession. There really isn't enough time to tap the jump button and tap the A button separately, no matter how fast you do it; you pretty much have to hit A immediately after jumping in order to get the first aerial out in time to squeeze a second one in.

And yeah, I have no idea how to make good use of the PK jump without compromising everything else. I too would like to know a good way to use it.

Come to think of it, if you could make do without using R for attacks in double aerial shuffles, you could instead set R to specials and you wouldn't have to contort your hand in a strange way to pull it off. Of course, this would not, however, help with firebounding. Perhaps you could set Z to jump? D: I dunno.

 

[NessOnett]

Also.. I know how to PK Jump, but for me to do it I need to put my right index finger on the b button and my middle finger on the jump button. Its quite irritable. Anyone else have an easier way to perform the PK jump?

Personally I set my c-stick to special(B-stick), and L to jump. That way i can SH with either L or Y, and then nearly simultaneously(which is required) press L and the B-stick in desired direction. I still need to perfect my timing(again), but IMO it is the easiest way. Then again I have learned to SH with L for my DAS, so I don't need R to be attack(still shield). Hope you can afford to lose your c-stick. But even without, helps to have an alternate jump button.

 

[Earthbound360]

Im backearly guys, but no update today cuz Im tired tired, mentally and physically (I stayed up LATE).

Man I must SUCK at explaining things since there's a bit of confusion in my thread.

First of all, the double aerial shuffle is just doing 2 aerials in one short hop. Right after short hopping, you must attack immediately. 2 bairs in one short hop is sadly impossible on a flat surface.

PK Jump is very useful. If you do it right, the situations to use it in should becmoe very obvious.

PK Jump is actually bad on platformy stages, as is firebound. Firbound has LESS range than the PK Jump, not more. PK Jump makes Ness lunge forward as he shoots PKF as the firebound pushes him backwards.

I might put my controller scheme into my guide for reference.

 

[Masky]

Hey 360... I don't think this is in your guide but you can shorten the amount of distance PK Jump or Firebound go (but not do a still jump) by tilting the control stick to a smaller degree right after you've executed the move. I have my c-stick set to specials, this may or may not be essential to do this

 

[Uffe]

Well I think I finally got the hang of PK Jump. At least I think it's PK Jump. What's sad is is that I got the hang of Firebounding before PK Jumping. People freak when they see me Firebound. If they have no knowledge of b-sticking, they're like wtf?

 

[Earthbound360]

If you can Firebound, you can PK Jump also since you can just use the C-stick. The only difference would be the direction you tilt the C stick in.

Firebound is forward on the control stick, double jump, back on C-stick.
PK Jump can be done by doing forward on the control stick, double jump, FORWARD on C-stick; basically the same thing.

 

[Uffe]

But it is possible to do it without b-sticking, right? Because I had this funky looking jump when I tried to PK Jump with just double jumping forward with PK Fire. At least I think that is PK Jump. I'm sure it is.

 

[Earthbound360]

Check my video or some others. It's being used.
And yes you can do it without the C-stick, but Im just saying if you feel comfortable with the Firebounding's control scheme, you can use a similar one to PK Jump.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Full Range PKT2 is soooooo sexy in brawl

 

[Eagle]

So EB360, do you use L to shield?

 

[Earthbound360]

Yup, I use L to shield and X to jump.

 

[neomadgic]

Wow, thanks for the tips on deathgrabbing. I wished I would of read it before I went to my tournament yesterday. I was getting deathgrabbed by a LUCAS. Good thing he wasn't good at it, since he kept pummeling and continued to hit a after the release.

 

[Ref]

You cannot be death grabbed by Lucas. If you are you are just letting yourself get grabbed. DI and Spot dodge it easily when he tries to grab you again.

Only Marth and Pokemon trainer can do that to you.

 

[Masky]

Hey 360... I don't think this is in your guide but you can shorten the amount of distance PK Jump or Firebound go (but not do a still jump) by tilting the control stick to a smaller degree right after you've executed the move. I have my c-stick set to specials, this may or may not be essential to do this

My post got trapped at the end of the last page ):

 

[Earthbound360]

Oh dont worry Masky, I saw that
And glad to help Neo. I take very little damage from the deathgrab now, and I might make a video to show off how meager it is now.

 

[Ref]

See, the super grab break is too good for escaping grabs. That's why the deathgrab doesn't really bother me. I always was good at Mario party... Back when you had to rotate the control stick... Plus the c stick flicking is excellent.

 

[thesage]

I would like to say Marth has a grab release to side b on Ness which is actually better for the Marth. At least you can di before the killing side b moves hit you though.

 

[Luigi player]

How exactly does the dtilt lock work? Always when I try it he falls on the ground from the dtilt but he stands up again because I hit him again... The enemy doesn't stay in the ground-laying animation...

 

[Uffe]

I'd like to master that shield piercing. That'd be so useful.