Pivoting beyond pivot grabs

[3747373796432]

Has anyone experimented with this? As in dashing towards your opponent, tapping the analog stick in the opposite direction, and pivoting an attack towards them. As opposed to dashing away from an opponent to avoid a SHFFL and dashing back in to grab, which people do all the time. So basicly you could turn dash dancing/pivoting into an offensive tactic. And what about pivoting smash attacks, tilts, jabs, and B moves? With this it'd be possible to do any attack during any frame of your dash. I'd imagine this being deadly with Marth for example, dashing towards you and immediately whipping out a Fsmash. Or Fox dashing towards you and immediately throwing out his shine, Dsmash, or Fsmash. He could also combo into his Utilt with this, like when he's chainthrowing a spacie who's DI'ing left or right. Pivoting Ftilts with Shiek could be really effective. The only person I've seen doing any of this is Silent Spectre when he used to pivot Fsmashes instead of grabs occasionally.

 

[CloneHat]

I'm pretty sure it can be done in the one frame of neutral stance when you turn around in a dash dance.

Ken used it a lot, IIRC.

 

[darkatma]

Yeah ARC does this often.

C stick works wonders.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pivoting smashes is easy.
Pivoting jabs is easy
Pivoting aerials is easy
Pivot grabs are easy
Pivot stands are easy.

Pivot tilts is the only difficult thing... unless you count pivot at the ledge to grab it.

 

[Pengie]

The only tilts that are really hard to do are up tilts; they get so much harder when you can't just hide the up input in something else so a lot of the time you end up jumping because GC control Sticks are mad sensitive.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Pivoting gentlemans = the next big thing.

 

[mers]

Pfff. Double pivots are the next big thing. So you can do a running jab at someone.

 

[Varist]

I almost laugh picturing that. People dash dancing like ****ing sharks, tension building and then just running up to jab

 

[Superspright]

I often get fsmash when I try pivot tilts. I wish I could do it consistently. It's awesome to be able to do.

 

[Sinji]

pivot grab is soo easy. LMAO this thread is funny.

 

[Superspright]

His next topic should be how intense it is to upsmash out of a pivot, or out of a jump. lol

 

[3747373796432]

Did you two even bother reading my post? :/ I'm not talking about technical skill anyway (the only thing I can't pivot are Utilts), I'm just wondering if there's any potential in pivoting attacks other than grabs, defensively and offensively.

 

[t3h Icy]

An inferior alternative is tapping down to crouch and then attack, but it's not useful for a lot of characters due to traction. You can do things like dash with Sheik into Dsmash almsot instantly.

 

[3747373796432]

@t3h Icy

That only works after the first couple of frames in your dash (the ones where you can turn around without lag) are over though.

 

[t3h Icy]

You can definitely do it while dashing.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Don't you face the other way if you pivot a jab?

 

[Superspright]

Pressing down takes 6 frames. A true pivot is 1 frame. Big difference. Also being able to pivot tilts and smashes makes you a much bigger threat. Your dash dance isn't just an opening for an aerial or a wavedash. You can now use any attack while being in constant motion. You're a MUCH bigger threat. Had to echo that.

 

[crush]

This business is serious.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can definitely do it while dashing.

there is no change action into crouch in the Initial Dash animation. there is in run, which is after dash dancing is no longer possible.

 

[3747373796432]

Don't you face the other way if you pivot a jab?

You'd have to dash three times. Once towards your opponent, once away, and again towards. And it just occurred to me that even though you don't need to pivot to do aerials, jumping during that one standing frame does kill off running momentum, so it could help out with spacing when the running momentum would take you too far. It could also be Melee's version of Brawl's Reverse Aerial Rush (the only good thing in that game), making the Bair even more useful, and it could emulate Brawl's instant turnaround edgehog. There's so many unexplored things in Melee.

 

[Kason Birdman]

you guys don't know about the turnpike??

dashdance -> wd behind person -> pivot grab

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've wanted to use pivot D-smash more with Peach but it just never comes up.

 

[Sinji]

I love pivot utilt.

 

[crush]

Pivot taunt with luigi is actually surprisingly good. Ganondorfs taunt can be used to avoid peaches d smash, so if you read a random d smash with Ganon, you can pivot taunt

 

[-ACE-]

just pivot when you should. it's not hard lol

 

[3747373796432]

Can anyone actually add to the topic? >_> I'm just wondering if this stuff has been already experimented with and deemed impractical or if it's actually worth exploring. You can't dash cancel in your dash dance, and the wavedash is laggier (due to the pre-jump crouching animation and the landing lag from the airdodge) and sometimes shorter than your dash dance. Also, a lot of the time, when comboing, your opponent is too far for walking, too close for a dash cancel, and too close to the ground for a wavedash for being able to follow up with a grounded attack. There's a ton of moves that would be alot more useful if you could throw them out during your dash dance.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Doing double pivots (dashing forward, dashing backwards, pivoting forward again) seems like one of those things that's to difficult to really be practical. I say that because at that point it would be more consistent (and probably faster since it's unlikely that you'd be doing this as fast as possible) to just wavedash and attack.

So things like double pivoting (what I'll be referring to this technique as for the rest of the post) tilts or jabs will probably never really catch on. Double pivoting f-smashes on the other hand is a lot more feasible (and is occasionally used in practice).

An interesting spacing tool that I think should be mentioned is shielding out of the initial dash and then jumping out of it. If you shield during your initial dash you lose your forward momentum, which means that you can dash forward and then retreating aerial. Combined with pivoting aerials you have two very fast aerial spacing tools.

 

[3747373796432]

Actually you don't need to double pivot for Fsmashes, just pivot once and tap the C-stick towards your opponent. It's super easy but I've never seen anyone do it before. Double pivoting tilts and jabs might be impractical, and regular pivoting tilts could really useful. I'm not a very technical player myself (can't SHDL lol) but I can still pivot Dtilt and Ftilt sometimes.

 

[Magus420]

Double pivoting jabs isn't difficult. A lot easier than pivoting tilts in general.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually you don't need to double pivot for Fsmashes, just pivot once and tap the C-stick towards your opponent. It's super easy but I've never seen anyone do it before. Double pivoting tilts and jabs might be impractical, and regular pivoting tilts could really useful. I'm not a very technical player myself (can't SHDL lol) but I can still pivot Dtilt and Ftilt sometimes.

Well, that' actually what I meant by "double pivot" f-smash. I'm just using the term "double pivot" to describe dash forward, pivoting but attacking in the same direction. But yeah, I guess that wouldn't really be a double pivot since you don't dash back at any point.

I use "double pivot" f-smashes to combo off of f-throw against Jiggs, and jumps for spacing purposes, in addition to the standard "pivot grabs to beat attacks" shenanigans.



I fear the day that Fox players learn to pivot shine.

 

[ILM]

Why would fox need to pivot shine? You can cancel a dash with a jump and shine and never leave the ground. It is the same principle displayed by multishining.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I do pivot de-syncs as Ice Climbers very regularly.

 

[Pikaville]

Sheik can grab behind her if you are close enough as far as I know.

Maybe you could use pivots to exploit this by dashdancing>wavedashing behind them and grabbing as you go by them

I rarely use pivoted stuff myself.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Running through someone is usually a pretty bad idea unless you get a hard read.

 

[erbanez]

Falcon's pivot forward smash :D

 

[Signia]

Actually you don't need to double pivot for Fsmashes, just pivot once and tap the C-stick towards your opponent. It's super easy but I've never seen anyone do it before.

It's used, trust me. Forward pivot finds application in Marth's Fthrow to Fsmash on floaties, most commonly on Peach and Puff. If they DI away, you won't be in range for a Fsmash, but if you wd to close the distance, it might be too late. Dashing and pivoting makes it guaranteed at some percents, even at kill percents. If they DI down and away I think WD Fsmash is better, though.

It's pretty important to adjust your spacing quickly when you want to hit with the tip, and still hit in time with a slow move like Fsmash, and this method is fastest choice. But it's really hard

So this isn't really anything new, but yes, it has untapped potential for those that want to get a little bit faster in specific situations.